Perhaps they changed their names. There was a member of Parliament a few years ago who changed his name to Haddock because he was concerned about the fish quotas on fishermen. There have been people named Albert Hall, and I knew someone called Wendy Howes.
Thanks again Alan. He is at home now and his wife missed our evening meeting to take care of him. Earlier you asked I asked Ian and he said "pass" this evening I asked one of our members who is a retired Grace Baptist Pastor (Rehoboth Church, Margate then, I think it is in Broadstairs now) All he would say is that it will happen sometime.
ALL you that pass by, to Jesus draw nigh; to you is it nothing that Jesus should die? Your ransom and peace, your surety He is, come, see if there ever was sorrow like His. 2 He dies to atone for sins not His own; your debt He has paid, and your work He has done. You all may receive the peace He did leave, who made intercession, ‘My Father, forgive!’ 3 For you and for me He prayed on the tree: the prayer is accepted, the sinner is free. That sinner am I who on Jesus rely, and come for the pardon God cannot deny. 4 His death is my plea; my Advocate see, and hear the blood speak that has answered for me; He purchased the grace which now I embrace; O Father, You know He has died in my place. Charles Wesley, 1707-88
Thanks Alan. He was taken into hospital on Friday and has had tests and injections. He was expecting to come out tomorrow, but he may now come home later today. He will have to inject himself with two drugs and go back for tests later in the week.
You are still avoiding the facts in the evangelists that the tribulation they describe was local and not worldwide. Seven years id not mentioned, neither is an antichrist. Try not to prove your point by keep repeating "You are in error" as if that is proved. Just try to concentrate on the points I have made and give an answer to those from these scriptures. Despite what you say you have not given an answer using those scriptures. Just to recap. When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies flee to the hills. If you are outside the country, don't return. When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies know that ITS desolation is near. I know the Brethren taught that Luke was speaking about a different event than Matthew, but that is untenable. As an aside. Our church secretary, was taken to hospital yesterday with a suspected blood clot on his lung. (He would believe as you do.)
Thank you Alan. As I said I don't follow Hendriksen. I don't know if any in our church do. Hendriksen is no less wrong that Scofield who although you won'e recognize it, you follow. But you do not address my main points that the Jewish Christians who were addressed in this discourse, were told that when they saw the abomination of desolation, that is Jerusalem surrounded by armies they were to flee to the hills as its desolation was near. They were told that if they were outside the country they were not to enter it because the desolation thereof was near. History tells us that all that happened. Jewish Christians fled the city when they saw the Roman armies surrounding the city. How did they escape? Cestius suddenly withdrew his armies "without a reason in the world" (Josephus) Christians fled the city but non believing Jews flocked to the city. Nero then sent Vespasian to take over the siege, and from the time Vespasian arrived is said to be 3½ years till the fall of Jerusalem. It was 1290 days from the time that Cestius surrounded Jerusalem till the daily sacrifice failed.(Daniel 12:11) It was 45 days from the failure of the sacrifice till the fail of Jerusalem and its desolation. All this is recorded in history. None of the three evangelists mention any Antichrist being involved in any of these events. None of them mention that the tribulation of those days are for seven years. In fact I don't think you have addressed any of the points I raised, but only repeated your suppositions which however often repeat them does not make them true.
Thanks Alan, I hope we can disagree without bitterness. The preacher who we have this evening in one of his messages said we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable. The are three mentions of great tribulation in the scripture and I maintain that they are three different things. Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This is Re 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I understand that John, but how does that fit in with Luke 8? 5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. 8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Are only those symbolized in verse 8 saved?
Thanks Alan, I hope we can disagree without bitterness. The preacher who we have this evening in one of his messages said we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable. The are three mentions of great tribulation in the scripture and I maintain that they are three different things. Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This is confined to the Jews Re 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.This is confined to a particular church, the church in Thyatira Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Those who have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb can only refer to Christians as they are the only ones who have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. I believe that refers to all Christians who have suffered tribulation through the ages. Whether it was through the Roman Empire, the Inquisition, Communists, N Korea etc, ISIS, or Pakistan and similar countries where Christians suffer death and torture from families, friends, or religious organisations. And those who will suffer till Christ comes. 'Most fundamentalists' in America may interpret the Tribulation Period as seven years. but I don't know many Christians here that do. I personally know few who would believe the pre tribulation rapture theory apart from the Brethren, which I left about 39 years ago. One is an old friend of mine, who I only see rarely now and he is a charismatic, and has been involved in a number of strange 'churches' over the years. He once told me that it if it had not been for meeting me he would still have been in some of them. The other is a strange bedfellow for you. He is a member of the Worldwide Church of God, the Armstrongite church, although they have thrown off many of the teachings of Armstrong. They do still meet on Saturdays. They used to follow the Jewish festivals, although he says they don't now. They used to do to Devon for two weeks to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles, but now they go to the same place but call it the harvest festival. They are celebrating it now, he was there last week and this. He started coming to our church after we did a leaflet drop one Easter. He moved away to Folkestone a few years ago and now rarely comes on a Sunday, because it is a journey with a bus, a train and another bus, but he does come regularly to our seniors lunch on Tuesdays. (a long way to come for lunch). I don't know if the PTR is a teaching of the WWCOG or if it is just him, if he comes on Tuesday I will ask him. If it is not their teaching I will have to ask him where he got it from.
While I agree that the signs were given to the Jews, it was to the Christian Jews, and they were told to flee to the mountains when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. I see nothing to say that that tribulation was for seven years, Many things are supposed to happen in the tribulation, A bombs etc, In fact one writer said it was the A-BOMB-ination of tribulation. All supposition but I would appreciate it if anyone will offer their thoughts on what will happen during the tribulation and the extent of the same. Of Course Matt, Mark and Luke do not mention the Antichrist in their accounts.