Kleptes

*Independent Fundamental Baptist
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  1. Kleptes added a post in a topic 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:   

    Paul gives a good illustration of the Antichrist in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.
    2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    The verse,that this discussion is on, is speaking of a certain lie,dealing with a belief system,concerning the Antichrist of Revelation chapter 13.
     Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
    Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
    Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
    Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
    Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
    Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
    Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
    Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
    Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
    There is a correlation in Romans chapter 1.
    Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
    Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
    Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
    Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
    Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
    Rom 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
    Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
    Rom 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
    Rom 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
    Rom 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
    Rom 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
    Verses 16 though 32 pretty much sums up how God deals with those who believe or hold the truth in unrighteousness. It could be argued that God turning them over to a reprobate mind is similar to God send them strong delusion that they believe a lie: stated in  2 Thessalonians.
     
  2. Kleptes added a post in a topic Revelation chapter 19-22 Study.   

              ​I believe that only those in Christ, dead or who remain, will hear the shout of the Lord with the voice of the archangel and the Trump of God as stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Another indication is in Revelation Chapter 20.
    Revelation 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.1  14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  
                      Take note of verses 4 and 5.  It shows two resurrections. One called the first resurrection and the  other called the second death.Those verses seem to indicate that only  those of the first resurrection heard Christ. It also says blessed and holy are those who hath part in the first resurrection and further states, "On such the second death has no power."  I believe Paul clears this up in 1 Corinthians 15.  Also look at verse 11 of Revelation 20 to the end of the chapter. I do not see of the second death called but rather given up from the sea, death and hell, standing at the Great white throne judgment, and ultimately cast into the lake of fire.
    1 Corinthians 15: 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.1 2  3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.3  9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 
     12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 
     20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.4  32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.5  33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 
     35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 
     51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?6  56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 
     58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 
         This whole chapter is about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul is explaining to them that if we believe only that Jesus lived in this life and he didn't rise again, Christians are of all men miserable and that our preaching is in vain. That if Christ didn't rise we are still in our sins. And those that are dead in Christ are perished. This coincides with 1Thessalonians 4 when Paul wrote about those that  are dead in Jesus. Do no sorrow not even as others that have no hope. And even says If we believe that Jesus Died and  rose again that even those who sleep in Jesus, God will bring with him.  Nothing will prevent them that are asleep in Christ from rising.  Why? Because they have the Hope of Jesus Christ's return.  We don't live in jeopardy every hour nor are the dead in Christ perished. It isn't a whisper at all.  That shout with the voice  of the archangel and the Trump of God falls on deaf ears of the lost.  
     
     
  3. Kleptes added a post in a topic Secondary Inspiration   

       The translators of the KJB didn't think they were inspired. Read what those translators wrote to the reader.  They quote Justin Martyr. "So St. Justin Martyr30 before him; We must know by all means (saith he) that it is not lawful (or possible) to learn (any thing) of God or of right piety, save only out of the Prophets, who teach us by divine inspiration."  The only why that those translators were inspired is if  they heard or moved by  the Holy Ghost, who would have told them exactly what to right in English, instead of comparing the former translations with the original tongues and revised them in the KJB. Why then would they even compare the former translations at all if they were inspired? Another thing that needs to be addressed. Is which revision is inspired.  The scribes who wrote the scriptures in the old testament weren't inspired. Yet they wrote down every jot and title. If they messed up that means they would have to correct them and if there were three pages needing corrections, after being reviewed in thirty days, they had to write the whole manuscript all over again. However, the scriptures written by those holy men of God had no need of revisions. From Genesis to Revelation the original scripts had no errors.  Paul didn't write or have the man who wrote in his place, "Say wait that isn't any good. Crunch that epistle up and throw it away. I have a better way of saying what they need to learn."  How do we explain the words in italic in the KJB?  It's all about context. The Holy Ghost didn't tell them directly.  They knew the context in which they were translating. Thus filling in missing places that weren't in the original tongues. It is evident that the KJB is the only preserved copy in English, Trumping all other "supposed better" English translations.
  4. Kleptes added a post in a topic 2 Thessalonians 2:3 - "falling Away" Or "departure"?   

    The translator Tyndale use the word departing. I believe the word departing meant a departing from the truth and into apostasy teaching.  If I remember correctly the 47 translators of the KJB.  Used along with the original tongues, the former translations diligently compared and revised.  They compared those other translations with the original tongues and revised it in the KJB. Thus making it the only accurate English translation to date.
    The Greek word Apostasia translated to falling away is accurate.
  5. Kleptes added a post in a topic The Sons Of God And The Days Of Noah.   

        I believe that Revelation Chapter 12 reveals what happened just prior to Jesus Christ being born on through to his death and resurrection, to the present , future, and through the great tribulation.   Verse one gives us a description of the woman so that we now know that she is the nation called Israel.   Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:   Verse two tells us that Jesus Christ is about to be born.   Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.   Verse three gives us a description of Satan and the kingdoms that he had power over at that time.   Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Verse four tells us that Satan drew or deceived a third of the angels to rebel against God, and then cast them down. Hopefully you can bear with me.  The only time in the Bible that bodily possessions occur is in the New Testament, and I believe that is why the third of the angels where cast down to do. Mark 1 gives us the first indication that people were possessed of devils very early on in Jesus's ministry.   Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them    to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.   Verse five reveals to us who that man child is. I know that in the verse it says that the Child was caught up into heaven. One of two things this can be. Either it is a brief description of Christ death and resurrection, or it could mean what Jesus tells us in John 3:13.   Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.   John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.   Verse six tells of a time span. I believe this time span prepared of God is the 3 1/2 years length of Jesus's ministry.   Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of    God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.   Verse seven through nine explains that Satan and his angels were cast down to earth out of heaven from the authority of God that Michael and his angels were given,and that Satan nor his angels could never enter heaven again. You may wonder when did this happen? I believe Jesus tells us about the time it happened. John 12:31. You very well might say that the prince of this world is Jesus Christ, but John chapter 14:30 and 16:11 tells us that it is Satan and that he is judged. This all happens just prior to Jesus dying.   Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.   John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.   John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.   John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.   Verse ten tells us that Jesus is our salvation which He fulfilled by dying for the sins of the world and resurrecting to life so that we who are born again may live eternally with him. It also gives us the comfort to know that Satan no longer has access to God to accuse us as he did in the book of JOB.   Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.   Verse eleven tells us that we are overcomers when we trust in Jesus Christ by the blood He shed and by our testimony.  Even if it means dying for His name sake.   Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.   Verse twelve tells us that Heaven can rejoice but woe to those on the earth for Satan has a short time. He has been showing his wrath ever since. Peter backs this up by telling us that Satan, our advesary, is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour in 1 Peter 5:8.   Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.   1Pet 5:8 Be sOBer, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:   Verse thirteen prophesies to us what we now know, in time's past and even see today, that Israel is being persecuted.   Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.   Verse fourteen shows us the time of Israel nurturing and where she flees to. I believe it is during the time of the abomination of desolation that is spoken in the book of Daniel chapters 9,11,and 12.  Jesus reaffirms this in both Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. Jesus even commands them to flee into the mountains.   Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.   Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.   Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.   Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?  7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.   Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)   Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:   Verses fifteen through seventeen pretty much explains the time of the great tribulation.   Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
  6. Kleptes added a post in a topic The Sons Of God And The Days Of Noah.   

    I believe Hebrews Chapter 1 pretty much explains the role of angels and who the Son of God is. Pay close attention to verse 5.
     
    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
  7. Kleptes added a post in a topic When Christ Appears, We Will Appear With Him In Glory   

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.7 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
     
    Notice verse 14 in particular. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
  8. Kleptes added a post in a topic 1 John 5:8 Picture Thread   

    I am a KJV only. I don't know if you think that the KJV is an "inspired translation" or not. I don't think it is and, yes I do think that the lower case s is a mistake, but not by the translators, but more or less the printer that printed it off. I can find several places where Spirit should be capitalized or where he when it talks about Jesus or God or the Holy Ghost should be capitalized instead of lower case.  We are talking of God not a mere man. So I believe that anything that talks of God whether it is Jesus, the Father, Holy Ghost, God, Jehovah,I AM, I am, He, Him, His and  ect.  should be capitalized. 
     
    Examples are from Jesus conception and few other verses.
     
     18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.  19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.  20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost
     
    In this verse specifically.  "the child of the Holy Ghost" should be the Child of the Holy Ghost. The term "that which" either it should have been capitalized or better yet "the Child that is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."  Jesus is God. God is not a "that". "the Child" is talking of Jesus. 
     
    (Eph 1:13 [KJV])
    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
     
    (Eph 4:30 [KJV])
    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
     
    (1Thess 4:8 [KJV])
    He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

    Paul is talking of part of the Godhead. They printed Holy Spirit with a lower case h. Holy should be capitalized. His in "his holy Spirit" should be capitalized to.  You might think this is trivial. but look up every verse in the Bible on Holy Ghost. He is capitalized every single time. I believe that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are One and the Same.
  9. Kleptes added a post in a topic Was The Kjv Influenced By Catholics?   

    I doubt it was influenced by catholics.  No where in the KJV will you find catechism, nor perpetual virgin Mary, infant baptism, sprinkling for baptism, purgatory, a vicar on earth in place of Christ (the pope), praying to Mary, universal church ect... There are plenty of other examples but list is long enough as it is
  10. Kleptes added a post in a topic 1 John 5:8 Picture Thread   

    Lest establish something first. You do agree that the Holy Ghost, also known as the Comforter,the Spirit, the Spirit of Truth and the Holy Spirit dwells in each and everyone that is truly born again right?
    If this is the case, the Spirit of truth does indeed beareth the witness of Jesus Christ who came by the water, the blood and the Spirit that beareth witness. That when He died he not only shed blood but the water came out as well. When Jesus left, the Father sent the Spirit, that we know is the Holy Ghost or what other name is used. The Spirit does witness on earth because he dwells in us.  If you look at the context of 1 John 5 you will see it all points to the assurance in Jesus Christ that every Christian has because we have overcome the world.  Verse 7 says that  the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost these Three are One which  beareth a record.  What record does these One bear?  That God gave us eternal life and it is in His Son. Verse 8 says there are three that beareth witness in the earth the spirit, the water, the blood and they agree in one. What do these three beareth? The same thing. That God gave us eternal life and it is in His son.  Verse 9 shows a contrast between the witness of men and the witness of God. The witness of God is greater than that of man. Which He hath testified of His Son.  How does that correspond to verse 7?  Verse 9 brings it out. That a the only men who can bear this witness are only those who believe in the Son of God. In doing so they have the witness in themselves. That witness is the Spirit of Truth or what other name is given for Him; like the examples at the beginning of this answer. He dwells in us.  Jesus even said the Spirit of truth will testify of Jesus when He comes. It is clear that the spirit that beareth the witness is that very Spirit. No spirit of man can do this unless he is born of God. Which points back to verse 9, otherwise it would be the witness of men and we know Who has the greater witness. Just as Jesus told Nicodemus. Ye must be born again. You have to be born of the Spirit.  It is clear that this Spirit is the Spirit that beareth the witness. One of the best examples between those who profess they are Christian and those who are born again is in Matthew 7 starting with verse 21.
     
     
    (Matt 7:21 [KJV])
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    (Matt 7:22 [KJV])
    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    (Matt 7:23 [KJV])
    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    These men have only their witness. We that are born again have the witness of God and we are known of Him. 
     
    Look at the preceding chapter 1 John 4.
     
    (1John 4:12 [KJV])
    No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

    (1John 4:13 [KJV])
    Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

    (1John 4:14 [KJV])
    And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    (1John 4:15 [KJV])
    Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

    (1John 4:16 [KJV])
    And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

    Verse 13 says that God has given of us His Spirit.
  11. Kleptes added a post in a topic 1 John 5:8 Picture Thread   

    How about these verses? Seems the Spirit of Truth is in each and every saved person. 
     
    (John 14:12 [KJV])
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    (John 14:13 [KJV])
    And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

    (John 14:14 [KJV])
    If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    (John 14:15 [KJV])
    If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    (John 14:16 [KJV])
    And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    (John 14:17 [KJV])
    Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Notice Jesus said that the Father shall give you another Comforter, that the world cannot receive, he may abide in you for ever. That Comforter is the Spirit of Truth. What else does Jesus say about this Spirit of Truth.
     
     
    (John 15:26 [KJV])
    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
     
    What will this Spirit of truth do when dwells in the body of a believer? He will testify, i.e. bear witness, of Jesus Christ.  What other scripture can show that the Spirit of truth is in us presently. You quoted Romans 8:16
     
    (Rom 8:16 [KJV])
    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
     
    You are right it is very clear where the Spirit is in relation with our spirit. It is with our spirit presently. How about these verses.
     
     
    (Rom 8:9 [KJV])
    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
     
    (Rom 8:11 [KJV])
    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
     
     
    (Eph 3:16 [KJV])
    That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

    (Eph 3:17 [KJV])
    That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
     
    You also mentioned 1 Corinthians 2:11-12,
     
    (1Cor 2:11 [KJV])
    For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    (1Cor 2:12 [KJV])
    Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
     
    11 says only the man know the things of man save the spirit of man which is in him. It also says that only the things of God the Spirit of God knows.  So if man only knows the things of man through the spirit of man, how can he bear a witness the things of God in earth? The only answer is if the man has the Spirit of God "truth" in him. I believe that the spirit which is of God in verse 12 should be capitalized. That Spirit is the Comforter that Jesus promised would come and dwell in us, presently, when He ascended back to the Father. 1 John 4:2 goes right along with with Romans 8:16
     
     
    (1John 4:2 [KJV])
    Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
     
    The only way a spirit can confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. Is only if the Spirit of truth "the Comforter" dwells in him. This confession testifies, ii.e. bears witness, of Jesus Christ. 
     
     
     

     
  12. Kleptes added a post in a topic 1 John 5:8 Picture Thread   

    I believe the answer is in verse 6 whether the spirit should be capitalized. 
     
     
    (1John 5:6 [KJV])
    This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

    (1John 5:7 [KJV])
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    (1John 5:8 [KJV])
    And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    Verse 6 of 1 John is speaking of Jesus Christ. What did he come by? Water and blood and it is the Spirit that beareth witness.,because that Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. Pretty much sums up what verse 8 says.   Verses 9-13 further explain this witness.
    (1John 5:9 [KJV])
    If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

    (1John 5:10 [KJV])
    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    (1John 5:11 [KJV])
    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    (1John 5:12 [KJV])
    He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    (1John 5:13 [KJV])
    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
     
    Because the Son of God hath witness in Himself, i.e.the Spirit,"the Spirit of truth", water and blood. If we believe on the Son we beareth His witness within ourselves because we believe the record that God gave of His Son. Which we know is eternal life and that life is in His Son.  

     
  13. Kleptes added a post in a topic Pastor And Preachers That Cheat On Their Wife   

    There is something we have to keep in mind concerning Adam and Eve. It wasn't until Adam ate that both eyes where open. Eve was deceived and in the transgression, but Adam being the head of the house was responsible.
    (Gen 3:6 [KJV])
    And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    (Gen 3:7 [KJV])
    And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
  14. Kleptes added a post in a topic Was Judas Saved?   

    John chapter 17 clears it up that Judas Iscariot was lost and was never saved.  Jesus starts off saying this in Verses 1 and 2.
     
      These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
     
    10,11 and 12 says this.
     
    10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
    11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
     
    The Father gave Jesus power over all flesh, and because of this He should give eternal life to as many as the Father has given him.  Judas iscariot was never given that life. So he was never saved.
     
    John chapter 6 Jesus left the multitude and went to Capernaum and they followed him. They asked him a question.
     
      25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
     
    Jesus answered with this. 
     
    26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
    27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
     
    Then they asked Him this.
      28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
     
    Jesus said this to them.
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
     
    They go on to ask him of what sign he can show for the work he did. And He answers them, but alot couldn't understand it and left and no longer walked with Him. 
     
    30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
    31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
    32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
    33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
    34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
    35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
    46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
    47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    48 I am that bread of life.
    49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
    52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
    56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
    57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
    58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
    59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
    60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
    61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
    62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
    66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
    Jesus then ask the twelve this question. 
    67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
     
    Peter answers. 
    68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
    69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 
     
    Jesus then makes this statement concerning Judas Iscariot. 
     
    70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
    71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
     
    Jesus mention earlier in verse 64 that there are some here that believed not and knew who would betray him.  Judas never believed, even though the Father gave Judas to Jesus.  In Acts 1 an apostle is appointed in place of Judas. Here is what is said of Judas keep in mind he was numbered with them and he ultimately went to his own place. I don't think Paradise or Abraham bosom isn't the place they were talking about but instead it was hell.
     
    15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
    16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
    17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
    18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
    19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
    20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
    21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
    22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
    23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
    24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
    25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
    26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
     
    If you remember Jesus also signified His death and said this, in John 12.
     
    25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
    26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
    27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
    28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
    29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
    30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
    31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
    33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
    25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
    26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
    27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
    28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
    29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
    30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
    31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
    33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
     
    When Jesus Christ was lifted up on the cross,he drew all men to him. Hense it confirmed what he said in John 17.
     
      Just another thought Judas is called the son of perdition.  There is another reference to a son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2 
     
     Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
    16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
    17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
     
    I believe the son of perdition is the antichrist,and we know he won't be saved either because his prince is Satan, who also entered into Judas. which is another indicator that Judas wasn't saved. No born again man can be possessed by Satan or any demon, but they can be oppressed.