Covenanter

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About Covenanter

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    Super Contributor
  • Birthday 03/11/1939
  • Bio Member of FIEC churches since 1957 - the year of my conversion & baptism.
    Married to Ann.
    FIEC is the UK equivalent of IFB, with a doctrinal basis that insists onfundamentals, but allows divergence on other matters.

Profile Information

  • Gender Male
  • Location: Southall, West London, England
  • Interests Bible Study, Family, Music, Tennis, Table tennis, Photography
  • Are you IFB? No

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Covenanter's Activity

  1. Covenanter added a post in a topic Has God cast aside Israel?   

    The question arises when quoting Jeremiah is: has Israel a king in David's throne, and a Levitical priesthood? 
  2. Covenanter added a post in a topic 4th of July   


    Time to repeal the Declaration of independence - God save the Queen!
     
  3. Covenanter added a post in a topic Comment On Current Debate   

    Surely in any other context you would understand "the covenant" as referring to God's covenant relationship with his people Israel.
    Confirming the covenant would be the work of God, not an enemy of Israel. 
    See e.g. the prophecy of Zechariah in Luke 1:68-79 
     
  4. Covenanter added a post in a topic Music In The Independent Baptist Churches   

    I was brought up in the church of England, very Prayer Book, impossible for me to understand. Very dead in fact.
    At 14 I was invited to a Bible class run by a neighbouring CofE where singing was from Golden Bells and CSSM choruses. 
    I could relate to the songs, and really enjoyed it, was converted at about 18.
    60 years on, I am aware of the problem - I choose the hymns and songs for the service. We use a traditional hymn book that includes a children's section - none written after 1900 - and a supplement of modern songs with a few children's songs. The church that gave us the supplement helps with our holiday Bible Club, where new songs are introduced. I add these to the supplement (if I consider them OK) so songs they have enjoyed can be sung in church through the year. 
    That approach seems to work.
     
  5. Covenanter added a post in a topic Magda - Arab World Ministries - cancer   

    Thanks for your prayers. Magda has had serious operation and is recovering at her sister's home. We don't know about further treatment, chemotherapy or the prognosis.
    Please continue to pray.
     
  6. Covenanter added a post in a topic R.C. Sproul's Dispensationalist View...   

    I agree with the various responses. If the contributors to this forum are typical dispensationalists, then this covenant theologian has no quarrel with the Gospel preached.
    The problem with the Billy Graham type"decision" gospel is counting decisions as conversions, without repentance or a change of life. They change the grace of our God into lasciviousness.
     
  7. Covenanter added a post in a topic Warning . . . . Blond Joke   

    We're with our 2-y-o grandson Michael, who has lovely fair hair - why don't we say "blonde" for a little boy?
    His shirt has the message, "I'm funny and I know it."
     
  8. Covenanter added a post in a topic Comment On Current Debate   

    and then open the Gospel of the New Covenant in Jesus' blood to all nations on earth - not excluding Israel.
    Does that make God a liar, or purveyor of false promises, or a covenant breaker? NO! NO! NO! 
    God cannot lie. He keeps his promises in ways more glorious than could be expressed in terms of the nation & the land. God in Christ lived under the old covenant, was obedient to the terms to perfection, suffered as the covenant surety for his people, & established a new & everlasting covenant in his own blood. 
    Many thousands of the people of Israel were converted during the Acts period and formed churches. Believers in Jesus were rejected by the nation's rulers, who were declared "uncircumcised" by the Holy Spirit speaking through Stephen. Acts 7:51 They married & had families, descended form Abraham, as did the unbelieving Jews, but they ceased to identify themselves as Jews, nor as Israelites. "Christians" was the name adopted for them,   with local gatherings being churches.   
     
     
     
  9. Covenanter added a post in a topic Warning . . . . Blond Joke   

    The English tell Irish jokes; the Irish tell Kerry jokes; the Dutch tell Belgian jokes, etc, however the Jews tell Jewish jokes that aren't funny to Gentiles .... 
    We can see that you are blond from your pic (or are you grey ) but we love you. And it's nice to have someone on the forum to joke about  who can laugh at herself. 
    I laugh when the joke is on me - I'd miss a lot of fun if I didn't. 
     
     
  10. Covenanter added a post in a topic Ye Chosen Seed of Israel's Race........   

    We would sing it - & I have often sung it.
     
  11. Covenanter added a post in a topic Debate - Prophecy in Daniel 9   

    My contributions in blue.
    Actually, no effort at all has been put forth with any intention whatsoever “to falsify the promises of God.”  Rather, some effort was put forth in order to illustrate a single point, the point being that a “gap” of time between the end of the 69th “week” (of years) and the beginning of the 70th “week” (of years) would not cause the failure and the falsifying of our Lord God’s prophetic utterance in Daniel 9:24-27.  Furthermore, a great deal of effort has been put forth throughout the entirety of this discussion-debate in order to demonstrate the inaccuracies of your position concerning the details of Daniel 9:24-27.
    Except that the Lord God of heaven and earth, God the Father, does not die; therefore, He can never “die in debt with a promise broken.”
    God cannot die, but he can tell the time, & he does know the times & seasons. If an interval between promise/warning & fulfilment is intended, he indicates it. See Gen. 6:3 (120 years) Gen. 15:13-21 (400 years) Deu. 18:18-19 (indefinite future) Jonah 3:4 (40 days)
    There is no such warning in Dan. 9 – Gabriel gives him the information that seventy weeks are determined ..... Daniel's people can expect the fulfilment of the prophecy in 490 years – within 7 years from the baptismal anointing of Messiah the Prince.
    Ian: You promise to build me a house - we agree it will take 70 weeks. After 69 weeks all is ready for the final week's work, so I can take possession. Then you tell me, "Yes, there is only one more week before I finish, but I've got a contract to build for someone else, so I am leaving your building indefinitely. That final week could be many years away."  
    Except that the Lord God did not wait until after the 69th “week” was completed before He gave report concerning the “gap” in time between the end of the 69th “week” and the beginning of the 70th “week.”  Actually, He gave this report even before the entire process of the 70 “weeks” began.
    You are reading a “gap” between weeks 69 & 70 into the passage. A gap of 350 weeks & counting makes nonsense of the actual duration of the prophecy - 70 weeks, 490 years – that God reveals.
    Ian: That is not how God keeps his promises. 
    How does the Lord God keep His promises?  He keeps them precisely according to the details with which He gave them.  Now, (as I stated with the conclusion of my previous posting) since God the Holy Spirit through inspiration arranged for a gap in the layout between the end of the 69th “week” (of years) and the beginning of the 70th “week” (of years), I myself expect this prophetic utterance to be fulfilled precisely in the same manner as it was presented under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, with the “gap” included.
    Yes & No. He keeps them according to his eternal purposes that were progressively revealed until Christ himself was revealed to the nation, the people for whom the promises were made. Abraham had his son Isaac according to the promise, but it was 400 years before his descendants became a great nation, & nearly another hundred before they could say: ... ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Josh. 23:14 – but read on. Whatever happened thereafter, God kept had his promise to Abraham concerning the nation & the land. Daniel acknowledges God's covenant-keeping in Dan. 9:4, & Israel's failure in Dan. 9:5-6
    There was a spiritual, eternal aspect to those promises, given in conditional covenant terms in Exo. 19:4-6 Exo. 24:3-8 because, sadly, their obedience would fail, so God made provision for that failure, first by ordaining sacrificial worship & then by promising the Messiah & a new covenant.
    If we consider the inspired record in the Gospels & Acts for the 7 years following the baptism of Christ – week 70 – we can see how the 70 weeks prophecy was completed in the prophesied time.
    Your analysis of the 70 weeks prophecy is seriously lacking in your failure to relate the prophecy to its fulfilment as recorded in the NT – the New Covenant Scriptures.
    _____________________________________________
    Concerning Daniel 9:27.
    Grammatically, this verse presents four independent statements (clauses), as follows:
    1.  “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.”
    2.  “And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”
    3.  “And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation.”
    4.  “And that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
    Herein we find a specific reference to “one week.”  In this context this appears to be a reference unto the 70th and final “week” (of years) of the 70 “weeks” (of years) that the Lord God had determined to administer “upon” Daniel’s people, the children of Israel. 
    There we fully agree.
    Even so, this verse begins with a statement concerning the initiation of that “week” (of years) by indicating that some specific “he” will “confirm” some specific “covenant” with a group of “many” (presumably, in this context, a “many” from among the children of Israel) for a time period of “one week” (7 years).  Furthermore, this verse speaks concerning the middle point of that “one week” period (the 3.5 year point), wherein the same specific “he” will “cause the sacrifice and the oblation” (presumably, within this context, at the temple in Jerusalem) “to cease.”  Third, this verse indicates that this same specific “he” at this middle point of this “one week” period (the 3.5 year point) will, “for” the purpose of “the overspreading of abominations,”  make “desolate,” presumably in this context, the temple in Jerusalem (as well as, possibly, the city of Jerusalem and the people of Jerusalem), and that this specific “he” will maintain this “overspreading of abominations” and this desolation “even until the consummation,” presumably in this context, of this “one week” (which would also be the consummation of the entire 70 “weeks”).  Finally, this verse indicates that those desolations which were determined as per the concluding statement of Daniel 9:26 will be “poured upon the desolate” (presumably, in this context, upon the children of Israel).  Thus we are able to observe that Daniel 9:27 covers details concerning the beginning, the middle, and the conclusion of the 70th and final “week” (of years).
    However, this general overview of the verse does raise a number of questions concerning certain details, as follows:
    1.  To whom does the pronoun “he” make reference?
    Grammatically and contextually, there are two possible antecedents for the pronoun “he” in Daniel 9:27.  The first of these is “the Messiah the Prince.”  The second is “the prince that shall come.” 
    When we consider the whole prophecy it is evident that God is answering Daniel's prayer for God's rebellious people by the 70 weeks prophecy by sending Messiah to deal with Israel's transgression, sins & iniquity, & bring in everlasting righteousness. That was accomplished at Calvary.
    Thus when Gabriel says, “he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week,” we should expect the “he” to be the one who is fulfilling the prophecies & promises made to Israel, i.e. The Messiah. Israel certainly needs God himself to fulfil the Covenant promises he made to Abraham, the Patriarchs & Moses, because Israel has failed. Moreover, if the city & sanctuary that were to be rebuilt unto Messiah the Prince, why should they be so completely destroyed? (v. 26) After all, God has made the old covenant promises, & promised a new covenant. God's eternal plans did not require an earthly city & sanctuary. (see e.g. John 4)
    The old covenant promises required Israel's obedience, so they failed. How could THE covenant be confirmed? Only by the one who made it becoming obedient under the covenant.

     
    2.  What is the meaning of the phrase “shall confirm” in this context?
    The verb “to confirm” indicates the strengthening of something that had previously been or become weak and/or ineffective.  In relation to a covenant, the verb “to confirm” indicates the affirming, or establishing, or engaging of a covenant that was or had become previously weak and/or ineffective.  As such, the phrase “shall confirm” in this context seems to imply a specific covenant that had previously existed, but that had also previously become ineffective.
    God had made many covenant promises both conditional & everlasting. All were summed by the wonderful relationship: “You will be my people, I will be your God.” The conditional covenant promises depended on Israel's obedience. The everlasting Covenants depended on God being faithful to his promises, but how could disobedient & unfaithful Israel benefit from those everlasting covenant promises? Only by God himself – as the Messiah entering that covenant from Israel's position, born under the covenant, living a life of perfect obedience under the covenant, yet suffering for the breaking of the covenant by those he was surety for. Heb. 7:22
    As Jesus said at the last supper: 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mat. 26)
    The old covenant was confirmed by the blood of animals. (Exodus 24) The new covenant is confirmed by the blood of Jesus, shed at Calvary for many. As Paul wrote in Romans 15: 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
    That was at the mid point of the 70th week.
    3.  To what specific covenant does the phrase “the covenant” make reference?
    I've answered that.
    4.  What does it mean that this “he” will “cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease”?
    The purpose of the sacrifices & oblations under the old covenant was a covering for sin, but by its repetition, was evidently ineffective. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Heb. 10
    That is confirmation of the covenant. The repair of the temple veil, & resumption of sacrifices was in direct defiance of Messiah & his saving sacrifice. The fact that sacrifices continued for 40 years only adds to the guilt of those who rejected their Messiah & rejected the Gospel in the blood of Jesus preached in Jesus' name by the Apostles. The sacrifices became “abominations.” See Isaiah 1.
    5.  What does it mean that this “he” shall “make it desolate”?
    Jesus cleansed the temple twice. John 2:13-21 & Mat. 21:12-13 There were instructions concerning leprosy in a house. Lev. 14:33 ff. Cleanse it once, destroy it the second time. There would be no third time.
    Jesus' prophecies of the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem & the temple are in view.
    Mat. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    Mat. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    Gabriel is not actually saying that the desolation will take place at the end of the 70th week. The abominations will continue until the consummation, while the covenant would be confirmed with the Jews during the final week before being opened to the Gentiles. Many received the preaching of John, & followed Jesus. Jesus thus confirmed the covenant promises both in his ministry & by his Apostles preaching at Pentecost & beyond. Many thousands of Jews, including priests, believed & were baptised, but sadly the Jewish leaders rejected both Jesus & the Gospel of salvation. They persisted in trying to keep a law that condemned them, & offering sacrifices that could NEVER take away sin. The Apostles were imprisoned & beaten, Stephen was stoned, & so the unbelieving Jews were declared “uncircumcised.” For them the covenant was utterly broken. Desolation & destruction followed. Happily, even those who condemned Stephen included at least one who welcomed the Gospel.
    In Acts 3, after a undeniable miracle, Peter reminded his hearers of the dreadful consequences of rejecting the promised one. Deu. 18:18-19 Acts 3:22-23 He also reminds them of the scope of the first covenant with Abraham, taking in all the kindreds of the earth.
    Notice Acts 3:24 – Peter is counting in “all the prophets” foretelling “these days” so Daniel is not relegated to some future dispensation.
    I'll end with a further quotation from Acts
    3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
    26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

     
  12. Covenanter added a post in a topic Knowing the time ....   

    I believe God understands time perfectly - he created time, as recorded in Genesis 1. When he created man, he made made subject to time -seasons, days & years. Everything about creation is dependent on the progression of time - life, growth & reproduction, speech, movement, music, digestion, etc, & ultimately death.  
    When God reveals time-related events, that is for the attention of those to whom it is revealed. Noah was given 120 years to prepare the ark before the flood. He obeyed, & he preached righteousness. 
    The children of Issachar understood their times, that it was time for David to be king:
    All these men of war, that could keep rank, came with a perfect heart to Hebron, to make David king over all Israel: and all the rest also of Israel were of one heart to make David king. (1 Chr. 12)
    A thousand years later, many understood the time, recognised & welcomed the Son of David, but sadly, the rest of Israel were of one heart to reject him. Jesus also knew the time:
    And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem (Luke 9:51)
    When Jesus warned this generation repeatedly, he was  warning his hearers that they were accountable for rejecting their Messiah, & that all they trusted in would be destroyed. Mat. 23:33-36   Mat. 24:34.  Yet God graciously gave that generation 40 years to repent.
    We must not trust that we have time - the emphasis is always on TODAY!. (Heb. 3:7-19) 
     
  13. Covenanter added a post in a topic Warning . . . . Blond Joke   

    A blond, red-head & brunette were shipwrecked on a desert island. They found a lamp & when they polished it, the resident genie appeared with his 3 wishes - one each.
    The red-head said "I want to go home;" 
    The brunette also said "I want to go home;" 
    The blond looked around, & said, "I'm lonely without my friends...."
     
  14. Covenanter added a post in a topic Atheists and delusion   

    About those 9/11 phone calls....
     
  15. Covenanter added a post in a topic Music In The Independent Baptist Churches   

    A 1992 refutation of pop-style CCM was published by John Blanchard in 1992 - "Pop Goes the Gospel." I did read it at the time.
    I would suggest that the problem is not primarily the music style, but the leadership attitude that welcomes such music. 
    We sing to my organ-keyboard played "straight." May old hymns from a traditional hymnbook, and also selected modern hymns, including some hymn-style by Townend & the Gettys. There are, of course, many modern hymns by other writers that are not sung in pop-style. I've included one of my own, based on Hab. 3, to an ancient tune - "Personent Hodie" dating from about 1360.
     
    Habakkuk 3
    Tune Personet Hodie
     
    God above, we have heard
    of your works in your Word,
    now revive in our day
    works of gospel power
    in this needy hour.
    In your wrath O Lord,
    In your wrath O Lord,
    In your wrath, yet once more,
    Lord remember mercy.
    2.
    When God came to the land
    mighty power in his hand
    all your tribes marched with you,
    singing out your glory
    as they told the story.
    Mighty shouts of praise,
    Mighty shouts of praise,
    Shouts of praise filled the land,
    made the heathen tremble.
    3.
    Christ by signs led the way;
    fire by night, cloud by day,
    mountain heights, depths below
    could not stand before you,
    nations fell before you.
    So be warned, O earth,
    So be warned, O earth,
    So be warned all mankind,
    God is in his temple.
    4.
    Nations now spurn your Laws;
    all around, judgement falls,
    your redeemed on you call,
    keep us true & faithful;
    trusting, praying, watchful.
    May we watch and pray;
    May we watch and pray;
    Watch and pray every day,
    for our Lord is coming.
    5.
    Evil men rule the lands;
    they despise your commands;
    they will not give you thanks
    now the crops are failing
    hungry people wailing.
    Yet I will rejoice,
    Yet I will rejoice,
    I will joy in the Lord,
    God of my salvation.
     
    Ian Day 2011