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About Covenanter

  • Rank
    Super Contributor
  • Birthday 03/11/1939
  • Bio Member of FIEC churches since 1957 - the year of my conversion & baptism.
    Married to Ann.
    FIEC is the UK equivalent of IFB, with a doctrinal basis that insists onfundamentals, but allows divergence on other matters.

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  • Gender Male
  • Location: Southall, West London, England
  • Interests Bible Study, Family, Music, Tennis, Table tennis, Photography
  • Are you IFB? No

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Covenanter's Activity

  1. Covenanter added a post in a topic: It can't happen?   

    ​Surely the safest place for a believer in the event of a nuclear strike IS within the strike zone.
  2. Covenanter added a post in a topic: Debate - Prophecy in Daniel 9   

    ​Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    I understand & appreciate your point about the the two anointings, at Jesus' baptism & his ascension to his heavenly throne. As Jesus' baptism & ascension took place within the 70 weeks, & 69 weeks is within the 70, it's not a point we need argue. We agree both anointings took place, & that Jesus is now seated on the heavenly throne at God's right hand.  Acts 2:29-39  Heb. 1:8  Heb. 8:1  Heb. 12:2 
    That appears to bring us to full agreement, that the v. 24 anointing took place within 7 years of Jesus' baptism, prophesied in v. 25. 
    Yet I understand you believe the 70th week is still to come, even though you affirm that the anointing has taken place. 
    We have further agreed (on the comment thread) that the events of Calvary are the basis for the blessings of v. 24.
    To which Bro. Scott replied, quoting only the second sentence:
    I would like to think that brings the debate to a close with virtually complete agreement, but somehow I think that may not be the case. 
    From your first post:
    Can we understand  - to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, - as accomplished - FINISHED - at Calvary, within the 70 weeks, or are we still waiting, as Pastor Scott asserts, & for the 70th week to arrive 350 weeks or more after the prophecy? We all (I hope) understand Isaiah 53 as referring to Calvary, & that chapter describes Jesus' suffering to redeem sinners to God. 
    Do the new covenant writers see the declared purpose of v. 24 as fulfilled at Calvary? 
    Finish the transgression:
    And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.  Heb. 9:15Make an end of sins:
    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb. 9:28 
    Bring in everlasting righteousness: John shows that our present state before God & in practice is righteousness:
    1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    John makes amazing statements - present tense statements that show that as believers in Christ, as children of God, we do not transgress, nor sin, but are righteous. We look at ourselves & disagree, but God sees us as redeemed in & by the Lord Jesus Christ. We live by faith as children of our Father God, we walk with our Saviour God who has redeemed us, guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit. 
    No, we are not waiting for week 70 to arrive - our Saviour came as promised. Like the Emmaus road disciples we may wonder if it had been he which should have redeemed Israel. Jesus answer was to open the Scriptures ... and to open their understanding. Luke 24. 
  3. Covenanter added a post in a topic: 1 Corinthians 7 Paul's Authority   

    The chapter reads as if Paul is giving advice, rather writing Scripture - there it is, as Scripture in our Bibles. For Pastors to get involved in marital situations is a minefield.
    A tentative suggestion is that Paul is giving principles to be considered in various situations. Some points are definite, but not all. It will be interesting to see how the thread proceeds. 
    One of my sons is on his third marriage - all entered as with Christian women. 
    The first, his wife left him for one of his friends within a year of marriage, the second, a seemingly happy marriage with 2 children, but his wife suddenly announced she wanted a divorce, without any real grounds, & with no-one else involved. The judge dismissed her points as of no substance & divided the property - so he was able to buy another house straight away. 
  4. Covenanter added a post in a topic: current debate   

    ​Regardless of how the debate proceeds, my present understanding is that the blessings listed in Dan. 9:24 correspond to Isaiah 53, the full salvation accomplished at Calvary. Whatever our thoughts on prophecy, Jesus' atoning sufferings are the basis for the eternal blessings for Israel & all the redeemed. 
  5. Covenanter added a post in a topic: current debate   

    How can I dispute Bro. Scott's grammar? 
    My grammar credentials are - I attended King Edward VI School in Southampton, following the hymnwriter, theologian & logician, Isaac Watts, by about 40 "weeks." I upset the Classics master by opting for science, when he wanted me to concentrate on Greek & Latin. My degreee is B.Sc. in Chemistry, & I worked as a professional scientist in research & development, learnt computer programming as soon as computers became accessible. (1980) As a scientist I wrote many reports & drafted patents. My basic intent with reports was that the purpose & conclusions should be readily accessible to the reader - usually a senior manager or director - for specific action. My last 15 years until retirement were as a scientific consultant, with a laboratory set up in my home. 
    I seek to be relatively brief, & precise. I look for main points to build on. 
    As a Christian I was brought up in the Church of England, in my teens I attended an "independent" Bible class & trusted Christ as my Lord & Saviour in 1957, at 18. I was introduced to an independent Evangelical Church that September, just before I went to university, was baptised as a believer in December 1957. I never returned to the CofE. My wife to be, Ann was at the same university studying theology & history. Our church in Southall was from about 1980 a mixed race church, & preaching required translation. It was necessary therefore to prepare as simply as possible to make translation straightforward. I was deacon, & church secretary but never Pastor. The churches I have attended have been baptist, holding amillennial eschatology. 
    I cannot compete with Bro. Scott with grammatical analysis, but I do read & understand. My replies may appear simplistic, but they are carefully considered & reasoned before writing. With a debate/discussion of this nature it is easy to make statements that I consider self-evident, but can be questioned as inaccurate by detailed analysis. e.g. When I wrote "the people of Israel are the descendants of Abraham" I was challenged, as other races were descended from Abraham. Would anyone be confused by what I wrote? Does the extra "the" change the reasoning? 
    Other points may need to be considered within the debate. 
  6. Covenanter added a post in a topic: Concerning "The Most High" in Daniel 9:24   

    ​Please quote Scriptures to support your assertions.
  7. Covenanter added a post in a topic: Hundreds of migrants drowned in Med   

    If Islam is such a wonderful system, why do they all want to leave Islamic countries & come as refugees, & at great risk & cost to "Christian " countries.? 
  8. Covenanter added an answer to a question: I had read Isaiah 8, can you tell me for certain who vs 14 is about?   

    You're wasting your time adding to this thread - he didn't read a PM I sent weeks ago.
  9. Covenanter added a post in a topic: Concerning "The Most High" in Daniel 9:24   

    1 Sam. 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
    Oil was the symbol, the Holy Spirit the reality.
  10. Covenanter added a post in a topic: Prayer for me please   

    What a critical situation - may your visit be a blessing to all - including your travelling companion. 
  11. Covenanter added a post in a topic: Debate - Prophecy in Daniel 9   

    Brother Scott, my "author​itative declarations" are generally statements directly based on the relevant Scriptures, with a knowledge of related Scriptures. It CANNOT be in question that Daniel's people are the people of Israel. Nor can it be in question that the people of Israel are the descendants of Abraham. That's what the whole OT (the old covenant Scripture) is all about. Nor can it be in question that the history of Israel was repeated periods of apostasy followed by repentance. The captivity in Babylon was the culmination of persistent apostasy & the rejection of the warnings of the prophets. I recommend you read Nehemiah's prayer (Neh. 9) alongside Daniel's. Note his references to "covenant." 
    To assert, as a result of your own grammatical analysis, that Daniel's people comprise "a specific body of people, people who had committed sinful wickedness and rebellion against the Lord their God" is not valid. Those specific people were dead - 70 years was long enough for all those corrupt leaders to die. Most of the second generation would also be dead. The third generation would be the ones who would return, but the promise to "thy people" was to apply in 70 "weeks", nearly 14 generations hence. Mat. 1:17 
    The Gospels relate the events of the life of Jesus - the  3 1/2 years following the completion of the 69 weeks, & the last 31 years of the 69 weeks, with the conception & birth narratives of John & Jesus. They also show that there was great expectation in Israel around the time of the birth of John & Jesus. Even the chief priests & scribes were able to advise the wise men; also Simeon & Anna were prepared. It is possible that the maths had been done - 69 weeks of years pointed to the year the Messiah would reach 30 & so begin his ministry, so these events 30 years before would be seen to have that significance. The prophecy of a senior priest who had had a vision in the temple before  the whole multitude of the people Luke 1:10 was very significant. Luke 1:67-79 Thirty years later they flocked to Jordan to hear & be baptised by John. 
    No. I do not recognise the validity of your complex grammatical analysis. I believe the Scriptures, & the straightforward grammar we actually read there.
  12. Covenanter added a post in a topic: Four Blood Moons on God’s Feast Days   

    Mat. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    According to Jesus, the "signs" he listed are not signs of the end, nor of anything else apart from a troubled world. They've been going on for thousands of years, & will continue until Jesus returns. They did not end with the destruction of AD 70. Later in the chapter he does give specific signs relating to the destruction, so that the Christians would know when to flee the city. 
  13. Covenanter added a post in a topic: Senior citizen? No, I'm too young.   

    I don't think of myself as old at 76. Many years ago I told my sons I would admit to being middle-aged when they could beat me at table tennis - I still play a powerful game with good mobility. I won gold & bronze during the 2012 Olympics. 
    We don't talk about football, nor those weird American sports, I talk TO children. 
    At church people may talk about the hymns & music I have chosen - or they want to choose, Scripture interpretation, even my peculiar diet - as I refuse all the cakes & biscuits on after after the service. 
    I belong to a choir, so again conversation there includes music & general "friend" matters.
    When all else fails, my wife & I converse about family, domestic matters & garden, Bible interpretation. 
    I do have some solitary activities - music practice, theological discussion on IFB, number puzzles - not good at cryptic crosswords.
    Now, what do we do in our spare time? Grandchildren figure there - No. 13 is due in July & apart from the older ones, we have 2 toddlers & a baby. Also I've got some revision for GCSE exams - my 60-70 y-o maths is still in demand. 
    We daren't grow old! What would our children & church do? 
  14. Covenanter added a post in a topic: Debate - Prophecy in Daniel 9   

    I'm not sure where we are going in this discussion. I'm not convinced that your grammatical analysis leads to a proper understanding of the prophecy, or whether it actually obscures the clear meaning of the prophecy. 
    The full scope of the prophecy is verse 24, the remaining verses adding details. 
    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    However we analyse the grammar, the arithmetic stands - 70 weeks, or 490 years to the fulfilment of the prophecy. That we agree takes us to the baptism & ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. Your grammatical interpretation makes the prophecy relate to some yet future date, 350 weeks and counting, so in effect it destroys the prophecy. I think in this case, the 70 weeks is so clearly specific that simple arithmetic overrules complicated grammar. The timing indicates the Lord Jesus' saving ministry. I think everyone agrees that, but there are suggestions as to whether 69 weeks takes us to Jesus' baptism, his triumphant entry or the cross & resurrection. 
    We should judge prophecy both by its faithfulness to the Word, & by its fulfilment, not by grammatical analysis. There is a danger of being Pharisaical. Also, we have the mind of Christ - 1 Cor. 2:16 - so we can look at prophecy with an new covenant, spiritual, Spirit-aided understanding. 
    One point of grammar is that in a list of prophetic events, the sequence is not necessarily chronological; they may be concurrent or in order of importance, etc. Also, as they are prophesied to take place in 70 weeks, those events cannot be absolute in the sense of your grammatical analysis. Transgression, sins & iniquity continue until our Lord returns in glory to bring into being  new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2 Peter 3
      The question I need to answer are:
    in what sense WAS Dan. 9:24 fulfilled within the 70 weeks?
    The question you need to answer is:
    If v. 24 was not fulfilled in 70 weeks, & is not yet fulfilled in 350 weeks, what does the 70 weeks prophecy mean when Gabriel declared the prophecy so plainly? 
    The prophecy was fulfilled in the 70 weeks - we can see ALL the answers in Isaiah 53 -  he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities ... he bare the sin of many. 
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    In Christ all believers are no longer transgressors, nor sinners & our iniquities are fully reconciled. We have everlasting righteousness imputed in Christ. Luke 22:37 Luke 24:47 Acts 3:26 Rom 5:17 We benefit from that fulfilled prophecy. 
    Our most Holy Saviour was anointed at his baptism - Luke 3:22 Luke 4:18 and again at his ascension - Heb. 1:8-9 Also Acts 4:24-30 quoting Psalm 2:1-3 
    Reference to Scripture, rather than grammar, shows that the 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled perfectly in 490 years. Arguments to insert an indefinite "gap" between 69 & 70 are a denial of the prophecy & make 70 weeks meaningless. 
  15. Covenanter added a post in a topic: Debate - Prophecy in Daniel 9   

    The following list of questions must be considered in order to formulate a right understanding of Daniel 9:24-29 in relation to the debate between the preteristic (or, partial-preteristic) understanding  and the futuristic understanding of the passage.
    My understanding of Scripture is best described as "Covenant Theology" with a partial preterist interpretation of prophecy. But don't look up web sites for what I believe. I don't follow a "system."
    Understanding - interpretation of Scripture requires understanding in the literal sense, bearing in mind Scripture is often clear statements, poetical, figurative, prophetic or for direct obedience.  In all cases it has a context, so that we need to consider why it is written, how it applies to writer & immediate readers, & as general Scripture & Messianic Scripture. Also no Scripture stands alone - there are always related Scriptures. 
    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    1.  Toward whom is this prophetic utterance focused in its fulfillment?
    The immediate understanding is "thy people & thy holy city" meaning the descendants of Abraham, aka "my people Israel" & Jerusalem. The first promise to Abram included blessing as a great nation & blessing for "all families on earth." ( Gen. 12:1-3 ) The prophecy cannot be exclusively intended for Israel, but as wide in scope as the promise to Abram. 
    Isaiah in his servant prophecies speaks of Messiah as "my servant Israel" and declares:
     And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Isa. 49:6 
    Those prophecies include Isaiah 53 when Jesus as the suffering servant is revealed, & Isaiah 52, which introduces the suffering servant, says: all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." 
    The aspects of Messiah's saving work were spelled out in Isaiah 53, & Gabriel & Daniel were aware of those Scriptures, as they are summarised in 9:24, as they were aware of Jeremiah & his 70 years.  This saving work is to be completed in 70 weeks, which we understand as 70x7 years, corresponding to the 70 years exile just completed. 
    Notice God often refers to "my people Israel" with the covenant relationship "I will be your God, & you will be my people" which relationship persists into the NH&NE of Rev. 21. It is a covenant-redemption relationship.
    2.  What specific measurement of time do the “seventy weeks” represent?
    We agree the 70 weeks represent 490 years, so we can expect the prophecy to be completed within that period, with all the weeks contiguous. However, as the prophecy was delivered about 2,500 years ago, there has to be a period AFTER the completion of the 70 weeks for the outworking of certain details.
    3.  Are the six-fold purpose statements for these “seventy weeks,” as presented in verse 24, to be fulfilled immediately upon the completion of these “seventy weeks,” or not?  They are, or the 70 weeks becomes meaningless. Any attempt to split the weeks nullifies the prophecy. As the prophesy concerns Messiah - Jesus - the time for fulfilment is time of Jesus' ministry, death & resurrection. 70 weeks takes us to about 35 AD. Clearly the saving work of Messiah is detailed in verse 24, as it is in Isaiah 53, & in the New Covenant Scriptures. 
    4.  What are the meanings for each of these six-fold purpose statements?
    These specifically concern the saving work of Jesus at Calvary. All believers can thank God for that wonderful provision for our salvation - see e.g. Isaiah 53. We do have "everlasting righteousness" , and all the promises & prophecies focus on Messiah. His coming, & all his saving work was the fulfilment of prophecy, as he explained on the Emmaus road & to the Apostles in Luke 24.  
    and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.   
    That applies to Jesus, fulfilling & being the end of prophecy & being anointed by the Holy Spirit for his ministry.
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Now Gabriel gives further details. The 69 weeks will be troublous times but Jerusalem will be rebuilt ready for Messiah the Prince to come.
    5.  What specific event in Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry is intended to be referenced by the phrase, “unto the Messiah the Prince,” as presented in verse 25?
    That takes us to Jesus' baptism, when he was anointed by the Holy Spirit for his ministry.   
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    6.  What is the specific timing for the events of verse 26 – (1) immediately at the close of the sixty-ninth “week,” (2) after the sixty-ninth “week,” but before the start of the seventieth week (that is – between the sixty-ninth “week” and seventieth “week,” creating a separation of time between the sixty-ninth “week” and seventieth “week”), (3) during the seventieth “week,” or (4) during and/or after the seventieth “week”?  
    That is best answered by looking at the fulfilment of the prophecy in the Gospels & Acts. "After" is not defined, but it is clear that the crucifixion is prophesied, so "cut off" is during the 70th week, as Jesus' earthly ministry lasted around 3 years. We know also from Jesus' Olivet prophecy & the warnings in Acts that the consequences of rejected Messiah were to be destruction of the city & sanctuary.  That destruction did not happen during the time of Acts, so must be after the 70th week, with is also after the 69th week. 7.  Who specifically are the people of the prince that shall come?
    8.  Who specifically is the prince that shall come?The consequence of rejection is the destruction, so the Roman armies are intended the prince being either the army commander, or the emperor.  
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
    9.  Who specifically is the “he” of verse 29?
    10.  What specifically is “the covenant” that the “he” of verse 29 confirms with the “many”?
    11.  Who specifically are the “many” of verse 29, with whom the “he” of the verse will confirm this covenant?
    12.  What does the phrase “for one week” mean in relation to to the confirming of this covenant that the “he” of the verse makes with the “many” of the verse?
    13.  What does it mean for the “he” of the verse to “cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease”?
    14.  What is the meaning of the phrase, “for the overspreading of abominations”?
    15.  To what does the phrase, “the consummation,” refer? 
    I'll take these together. The subject of the whole passage is the Messiah, & his saving work. Daniel is concerned with God's covenant & Israel's failure to keep it. Dan. 9:4-5 Jesus was born under the old covenant in order to keep it to perfection & so redeem Israel. I recommend reading the songs of Mary, Zechariah, the angels & Simeon to see the way he was to honour the covenant for his people: Luke 1:68-79
      Every aspect of the old covenant required sacrifice. Jesus was the final sacrifice, in the midst of the 70th week, after which all animal sacrifices were worthless. They didn't stop, even though the temple veil was rent top to bottom. Seems they just mended it & carried on with the sacrifices, which, offered in defiance of God were abominations. See Isaiah 1. Jesus was busy during his ministry confirming the covenant with as many as received him, and for the remainder of the 70th week his Apostles were preaching the Gospel, whereby all the blessings of Dan. 9:24 were received. Many thousands of the repentant Jews, including priests,  responded to the Gospel, all round the Roman empire They recognised the fulfilment of prophecy in Jesus. Acts 3:18-26
    Sadly, the Jewish leaders persistently rejected their Messiah, to the extent that they were denounced as "uncircumcised" by the Holy Spirit speaking through Stephen. Acts 7:51  
    In the context, the "consummation" is the AD 70 destruction, when the wrath of God was poured out on those who rejected first their Messiah, then the Gospel of salvation through his saving work. That is according to many prophecies, including Deut. 18:18-19   Mal. 4:5-6  Acts 3:22-23  That destruction effectively ended (sealed up) the Old Covenant prophecies concerning Israel. Jesus gave them & us the New Covenant in his blood, which Jeremiah speaks of in Jer. 31.   
    Happily that dreadful consummation is not God's last word to Israel, though it was to the generation "this generation" that rejected him. The Gospel is freely available to every repentance sinner, including the Jews & will be until Jesus returns.
    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (Rev. 7)
    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev. 22)


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  1. Covenanter

    Thanks for those extra poem verses!! :)

  2. Covenanter

    Hello Ian
    Over on Trail of Blood, Sam is disagreeing with me on "Calvinism"
    Sam was thrown of the same KJ forum who excluded us. He said they told him they didn't exclude anone from their site. At about the same time, sam was made a moderator on TOB.