The Ohio Patriot got a reaction from Ruth in Ccm Being Used By Temple Baptist Church Powell, Tn (Pastor Clarence Sexton)
Yes, John but it seems like many on this website only are one sided. What they are now doing to Temple Baptist is akin to what David Cloud would do.
Not a single person attacking this church has first hand knowledge of Temple Baptist or Clarence Sexton. I prefer to stand with good men.
I have made it clear in the past what I think of CCM music, and it has become common for people to take a video and make claims about a church. Should we allow this issue to cancel what Clarence Sexton, Temple Baptist, and Crown College has done. If that is your choice so be it, but I will stand with God's men.
At the rate some are attacking other people for issues they disagree with, when they are finished it will be a few pious people standing with David Cloud.
The Ohio Patriot reacted to John81 in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
Is it not clear the back and forth in this manner is unedifying and even counterproductive?
Most of this has been bandied back and forth countless times, here and in several other threads. Better for all involved to stop replying and move on.
The Ohio Patriot got a reaction from Steve Schwenke in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
I have not been on here but for a few minutes in the last several months and the discussion has not changed. Several people have made tremendous posts but I would like to congratulate Salyan for the honesty and clarify of your post. Pastor Scott Markle also had some insightful thoughts. When people who are normally clear thinking individuals becomes enraged and willing to openly castigate men of God, and fellow members on this board there is reason.
I have to wonder how many people leave this website for discussions like this.
Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
The Ohio Patriot reacted to Jesuspaiditall4all in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
It isn't wrong to stand firm on what scripture teaches, but it is wrong to twist what someone has said to try to prove your point. I haven't been back very long, however, long enough to see what has occurred here. I believe you will respond back and have more to say to defend your position, but, I'm not here to disagree with you. I come to this forum to learn, to fellowship and share. I stated what I did because it was - is my observation. When things are known they are clear to the individual and that doesn't mean that all individuals have the understanding correctly, just because they firmly believe it to be so. We can be wrong, dead wrong and still believe we are correct in our stand. Just something to think about.
The Ohio Patriot reacted to OLD fashioned preacher in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
Whoa up fella ---- Show me where and when I said such anything about a tithe anywhere in this thread??????????????????????????????
I know you can read better than that (and if your text to speech program missed it due to the quotes and highlighted phrases within it then ask your wife to fill them in to compensate for software shortcomings). In an earlier post (somewhere around 15 or 17) I objected to the idea that geographical proximity (or lack thereof) alleviated personal responsibility to widows within the family (not just offspring either as indicated in Scripture by the listing of children and nephews).
Back up and re-read!!!!!!!!!!!
The Ohio Patriot reacted to Steve Schwenke in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
Well, there has been the usual nonsense on this topic, which I have skipped over. I have to give a shout-out to Salyan for saying what has needed to be said for a long time. Thank you!
I won't take the trouble to quote everyone, but John81 and Pastor Markle have really spoken to the essense of this issue - giving out of love for the Lord Jesus Christ. Pastor Markle's post is a gem, and worth reading and studying over.
I would like to share how I approach this issue as a pastor. I do understand the principles of the New Testament, how that Salvation by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ frees us from all aspects of the Law. This does not mean that we can abuse our liberty in Christ, but that our Liberty in Christ frees us to serve Him in a manner that the Law could not allow, even though the Law demanded it (see Deut. 6:5). It is not always easy to love someone who is a taskmaster, but that is exactly what the Law demanded. We are not under any demands whatsoever, but have the opportunity to freely and voluntarily serve Jesus Christ out of a pure and loving heart.
When it comes to giving, I emphasize II Cor. 9:6-7, and attempt to communicate that our giving should be done purposefully, cheerfully, willingly, and according to what he HAS, not what he does not have (so much for faith promise!). (The last point is from II Cor. 8:12).
So yes, SFIC does have one valid point - preachers that DEMAND a tithe are absolutely wrong. I can agree to that.
Now for the new Christian, I use the PRINCIPLE of the tithe, pre-dating the law, as a baseline EXAMPLE of where we should start. (Gen. 14). (I know, I can hear the objections from the peanut gallery already...but I took care of that, and I won't have to read the nonsense from certain people! ) The OT is in fact given to us for our ensamples, and for our admonition and learning. (Rom. 15:4 and I Cor. 10:11). We can learn something of a practical value, and use it in our daily lives without putting ourselves under the Law. I use this PRINCIPLE (not demand!) to show the new convert that giving to the Lord's work is not something to be taken flippantly or carelessly, but rather purposefully and meaningfully. In other words, ANYBODY can throw $5 in the offering plate, but is that really giving to the Lord's work, when you have a bank account overflowing? No sir! The Lord was not impressed with the wealthy men dropping off bags of gold to the temple, because it was not SACRIFICIAL giving. A tithe is meant - on purpose - to test our faith and resolve. And the Lord has taught us that if we cannot be faithful in the handling of our money, then we most certainly cannot be faithful when it comes to other important matters - like Bible doctrine. (see Luke 16:10-12 w/ II Tim. 2:2). Giving 10% as a baseline PRINCIPLE (not DEMAND!) helps the new Christian learn how to trust the Lord in their financial matters, makes them more cautious and prudent in their own financial affairs, and teaches them that - yes, indeed! - the Lord will provide for their daily needs when they put the Lord first place in their lives.
I also encourage them to give of the firstfruits in accordance with Proverbs 3:9-10 (try dispensationalizing that one away! ) In other words, we give to the Lord right off the top - just like ole' Uncle Sam does.
The final thing that I teach in this matter is a verse that is much overlooked in these discussions:
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
It has been my observation that the people that DON'T GIVE regularly, purposefully, cheerfully, willingly, and according to what they have, do not have the GRACE to serve the Lord properly. (see Heb. 12:28) Remember, we are to grow in GRACE (i.e. service!) and knowledge (II Pet. 3:18).
Now, I always make it clear that we are in the NT, and we are not in bondage to ANY of the OT Law, including the tithe. I don't check the contribution worksheets to see who is giving and who is not. I don't show up on people's doorsteps demanding their "tithe." I don't stick my nose into people's financial affairs. So, in other words, this is my counsel to them, and then they have to decide how they are going to act - without me standing over their shoulders "demanding" anything.
It is my goal to START them giving, giving by faith (thus 10%), and then "graduating" from the baseline principle of 10% to going beyond the demands of the law. To me, it is a step of faith to START giving, then to keep giving, and then to INCREASE in giving.
(I also teach that the priority in giving to the Lord's work is to your local church, then to missions, and then to other projects or special offerings as needs arise. But that is another post for another day.)
In short, notice, there are no demands placed upon the new convert, but rather a scriptural principle and example to work from as a starting point.
Notice that the objective is to get them started, and then to help them understand the principles of the NT liberty in Christ, which will (hopefully) spur them to go beyond that baseline principle.
Anyway, I hope this is helpful to somebody out there!
As for the dissenter(s?).....
The Ohio Patriot reacted to Salyan in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
Sigh. Actually, I didn't say your statements concerning the tithing question were wrong. I was pointing out that your attitude is wrong.
You want verses? Okay...
I cannot prove your cruel, false words about godly men to be wrong, because you will not be proven wrong! But your refusal to listen to others does not make your statements correct. You want to be proven wrong? Come up here and meet my pastor.
The Ohio Patriot reacted to Salyan in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
SFIC, you are proving an enigma to me. You produce very well thought out, reasonable posts on many subjects, and I generally appreciate your input, but something about this topic produces Mr. Hyde!
It is not reasonable to argue against tithing as a requirement each and every time the opportunity arises even when others are obviously tired of hearing those arguments. It is not reasonable to repeatedly insist that others are producing no Scripture to back up their beliefs, only to accuse them of misinterpreting it whenever Scripture is produced. It is not reasonable to expect people to resist passively when they or their godly pastors are receiving character assassinations for teaching tithing. And it is not reasonable to react as a martyr when your own attitude is reflected back to you.
Let me quote two of your responses:
You feel your character is being attacked? What were you doing in this earlier post?
In this post, you have called your debaters (or their pastors that teach tithing):
Oppressors of the poor
In rebellion against God
Suppressors of the truth
Teachers of disobedience and rebellion
Having no fear of God (I'll skip the one about being a disgrace to the ministry, because the specific example you were citing there was a disgrace to the ministry.)
Wolves in sheep's clothing
Sticking together with ungodly, greedy preachers (I'll skip the ungodly & greedy because that particular one was)
Robbing the flock
Teaching a man-made doctrine
Adding to the Word
And then you feel attacked when they respond roughly themselves! Pot calling the kettle black, sir.
I understand you truly feel the tithe is not required. Fine. Great! There are those on here that truly feel it is. Frankly, I don't think it's something to separate over. Since it isn't something of sufficient weight to separate over... perhaps it is not necessary to stubbornly debate it at every possible opportunity?
And yes, I called you stubborn. Cause on this topic, you be the stubbornest person I ever done met!
The Ohio Patriot reacted to Pastor Scott Markle in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
Might I also add --
For a believer to say, "I recognize that the Lord my God desires for me to give, but that He also desires for me to give with a cheerful heart. Therefore, because I do not have a cheerful heart concerning giving, I will just give nothing at all." -- Such a decision simply indicates that this believer has added sin upon sin. This believer is sinning against the Lord in not possessing a cheerful heart for giving. Indeed, the Lord our God "loveth a cheerful giver." To not possess a cheerful heart in giving is to stand contrary to that which the Lord our God Himself loves. To stand contrary to that which the Lord our God Himself loves is a sin. Furthermore, to choose not to give at all, when the Lord our God indicates His desire that we should give, is an additional sin. The Biblically correct step for the believer who does not possess a cheerful heart in giving is not that of adding sin upon sin by choosing not to give at all. Rather, the Biblically correct step for this believer is that of repenting before the Lord concerning his or her sinful heart attitude concerning giving.
The Ohio Patriot reacted to irishman in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
SFIC you and your wife use the Old Testament tithing law to make your point, but deny it when it comes to tihting! How hypocritical that is!
The tribes did tithe, and A PORTION went to the Levites, from which they also tithed.
Lev. 27:30 emphatically says "The tithe is the Lords" and it is Holy:
"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD."
Perhaps He changed His mind in the N.T.?
Sure, they tithed from crops, money was scarce for the average person, the poor could afford to tithe that which they had, but few had much money.
Jesus mentioned tithing in the N.T. too, and said that ye ought to have done AND NOT LEFT THE OTHER UNDONE.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Mt 23:23)
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Lk. 11:42)
I have tried to avoid a long drawn out discussion the last time, but I see that you are obsessed with this falsehood, and figured, for the sake of others, that we might as well go over some old ground again. Not that I suppose you will be convinced, you are to hung up on the thought that God doesn't deserve a tithe, but for the sake of a few others who have not studied so much that they have become dogmatically, stubborn. "Much study has made (some) mad"
First, let me say your attitude stinks. No one that I know of feels compelled to tithe "forcibly", as you seem to think the teaching implies. That is a matter of attitude. It is obvious that you cannot give cheerfully, as was already mentioned that we should.
Secondly, The idea of "grace giving" (as so called by John MacArthur, who denied the blood of Christ) opens the door to no giving at all "if you feel you can't afford it". That leaves it up to man to decide if the tithe is the Lord's or his.
IN 2 Cor. 9:7, which is often quoted in the subject of tithing, bears out a blessing for those that give--contrary to what you sem to believe. If one would read the rest of the text, they would see that we are still not to ignore the poor, which you say we do if we tithe.
Can you read?
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
God is able to provide that which you lack.
2Co 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
then,backing up to verse 6:
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
The implication is that God blesses a faithful giver.
Now, concerning percentage giving (remember, "tithe" means "the tenth") we are to give equally. The only way to do that is percentage giving. 10% is always 10%, not matter what the income.
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
2Co 8:13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
2Co 8:14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
One of the biggest problems in the church today is applying scripture to our own beliefs. Every post (nearly) that is doctrinal, will have many say why it doesn't apply today (dispensationalists?) or that it doesn't mean what it says, literally; most of us give it our own private interpretation. I am afraid that is the problem here.
There is not much more for me to say, take it or leave it, and let the Lord sort things out when He comes.
The Ohio Patriot reacted to Miss Daisy in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
SFIC: yeah, yeah, yeah.... you're the only one on here that believes that on here from what I've read. I think YOU"RE the one who's misinterpreting scripture!
p.s. I will not respond to your posts regarding this matter after this as it would be .
The Ohio Patriot reacted to Miss Daisy in Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?
There are many things in scripture we're commanded not to do and I know sometimes I'm not 'feeling it', but I still do what's commanded. Why would tithing be the only thing you don't have to do if you're not 'feeling it'?
Call it tithing, offering, love offering, gift, freewill offering, in a box, plate or bucket whatever you want but it's still needed by the church. Remember, we are still IN the world, not OF the world and IN THIS world it requires bills to be paid.
The Ohio Patriot reacted to Moved_On in The Brilliance Of Gail Riplinger
I have thick skin; I’m not mad. I was however annoyed by the fact that you stuck Cloud in my face with your very first post in this thread. And, your accusation that “I stand with the liberal crowd” was inflammatory and not true. Your deductive logic or lack thereof is truly unique since you’re the first person in my 40+ years to make that “observation.”
Here are some observations that I’ve made since I started participating in this forum:
When you receive negative feedback for an absurd comment, you claim you “said it wrong” You completely hijacked my thread with a link pointing to a critic with which I’ve personally had issue. Much of your comments equate to volume over substance You’re a mainstream news media parrot If someone video taped me exercising poor judgment, you’d post it for all to see. Many of your posts are flippant and nonsensical You’d fare much better at on the wheel-of-fortune than jeopardy.
The Ohio Patriot reacted to ASongOfDegrees in The Brilliance Of Gail Riplinger
I've looked all over for it but neither Wescott or Hort ever made a profession of faith in Christ. Maybe there's a profession of faith from their writings out there on the internet someplace but I've never been able to find it.
The man who found the Siniaticus in a sjunk heap (Tischendorf) was a complete reprobate.
The Ohio Patriot reacted to No Nicolaitans in The Brilliance Of Gail Riplinger
I spent a great deal of time (in the past) reading, studying, and absorbing the Bible version issue, and I learned a lot.
When it came down to it, what made the biggest impact on me was simply this...
The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts were both "found" while they were in the possession of a false religious system...where they had been kept for hundreds of years. This would mean that IF these manuscripts were God's word, then God kept his word hidden from true believers for hundreds of years. Westcott and Hort were both members of a false religious system, and both of them were heretics who denied the inspiration of scripture (along with other major doctrines). This would mean that IF God used these men to write a new Greek text, then God chose two heretics (who didn't even believe the Bible was God's word) to write a new Bible based on manuscripts that were kept in a false religious system and hidden from true believers for hundreds of years. All of the other information is interesting, provocative, and intriguing; however, those two simple facts are what had the biggest impact on me. It may not be enough to convince a lot of people, but it gets to the root of the issue quickly and concisely.
That's my 2 cents worth...didn't mean to get off the subject.