frontline_preacher

*Independent Fundamental Baptist
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About frontline_preacher

  • Rank
    Advanced Member
  • Birthday 10/07/1981
  • Bio street preacher,
    asst. pastor KING OF GRACE BAPTIST CHURCH, las vegas nevada

Profile Information

  • Gender Male
  • Location: las vegas nevada
  • Are you IFB? Yes

frontline_preacher's Activity

  1. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: I'll Try To Give Answers To Supposed Bible "contradictions" And Hard To Understand Passages.   



    i have always leaded toward...those with a "Man of God " complex that are lording over God's people

    like the shoe Nike... conquer ... or perhaps a type of dominionism

    1 Cori nt hians 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

    ?????
  2. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Please Explain Why Apostle Paul Is Misunderstood   



    paul preached a different gospel then jesus, paul preached the gospel of the grace of God, Jesus preached, for the most part the gospel of the kingdom, Peter preached in the early book of acts a continuance of the gospel of the kingdom.
    matt 4:17,23,matt 10:5-8....acts 28:31, rom 2:16, eph 3:2:3-5, col 1:26

    i n 2 peter 3:16... peter is actually acknowledging pauls authority (and being humble at that), because paul was given the revelation, and the doctrine for the church age...peter was preaching to the jews, until they finally regected God the holy ghost then, the Lord raised up paul immediately after... please read on and see for your self... http://www.thebiblestudypage.com/Mystery_of_The_Ages_1.html

    here is a sample of a book i will direct you to that you might study and understand the "why's" that connect the dots
    i will not spend the time outlining a typing things that others have already put together, and have done a better job then me


    [ In Matt. 13 Jesus warns his audience that the Kingdom of Heaven is going to assume a "mystery" form. What follows is a series of teachings on moral relationships as they will affect the coming literal, visible, earthly kingdom. Notice that in these seven parables, the outstanding consideration is not the political line of power which was given to an earthly king over David's kingdom, but rather the moral responsibilities and moral requirements of the people who think they are going to get into the kingdom! (See Matt. 13:15,19,22,37-41,49; 18:23,28,30,33,34; 20:13,15; 22:6,8,13; 25:12,23,26,30,40,41,46).
    This mystery teaching came on the heels of Christ's official rejection (Matt. 12) after which Jesus promptly went "out of the house" (Matt. 13:1). Keep in mind the Jews were never rebuked for not expecting the kingdom. (See Acts 1). Those who crucified Christ were even given a chance to accept a different kingdom after they crucified Him, in lieu of the indefinite time which would precede the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven which they had been looking for (Acts 3:19-26; 3:17; Lk. 23:24; I Cor. 2:7-8).

    "You see, the leaders of Israel had made a mistake in 33 A.D. as great as their Roman Catholic successors did in 325 A.D. and 1963 A.D. They made the mistake of thinking that all they needed was a leader "like all the nations "round about them." This is the same mistake they had made 1000 years earlier, in (I Sam. 8:5,20). It is the mistake that Germany made in 1930-1945. It is the same mistake that any and every individual and nation makes when they think that any kingdom on earth can be BROUGHT IN without the restoration of the original image of God. This image was God's own Son (2 Cor. 4:4), and the only way on earth that men can receive this image is to be "born again" as Jesus Christ was born by the Holy Spirit (see Jn. 1:11,12). Christ could produce His image in no one without dying first (Jn. 12:24), for how could a sinless, Holy Spirit enter into fallen, sinful Man on even speaking terms till at least ONE man had lived a sinless, Holy life? (Rom. 3:24-26). The sinless, Man is present in (Matt. 13). The Holy life is there. The King is there; both Kingdoms are at hand, and just when it looks like things are going to come to a happy ending, Jesus warns that the physical, literal, earthly, visible Kingdom of Heaven is going into a stage where it will not be discernible to the Jew, and that until it becomes discernible (Lk. 19:11) the Jew will have only the Kingdom of GOD with which to deal (Lk. 17:20).
    There are two responses to this warning; the Nation of Israel stumbles at the parables, thinking that no holy, moral Kingdom has to accompany the expected Kingdom of Heaven; the Gentiles (in the church-age which follows) go back to these parables to prove that the Kingdom of Heaven came automatically with the Kingdom of GOD, and that it is not "spreading" without the restoration and preeminence of the nation to whom it was given!! Matthew 13 is the place for all Bible-rejecting Jews and Gentiles - who profess to believe the Bible - to develop a theological psychosis; they all do!" ]
  3. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Please Explain Why Apostle Paul Is Misunderstood   



    John anwsered perfectly

    I will add that this is coming from a gnostic that is trying to decive you the next thing you will here ablut is the gospel of judas, or barnabas, and claims of them haveing the real teachings or christ which is just more lies...these lies are proceeding from Gnosticism
  4. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: An Appointed Time?   



    i would say it is a general statement, as john has said...

    Ecclesiastes 9:11-12 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

    James 4:13-14 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

    also in a closer look in context i believe i have seen something that i will pray and look into closer in the near future

    in context it appears,that it is a general statement (an earthly thing to teach us an heavenly thing) that it is showing that Jesus tasted death and was sinless, found righteous (or fulfilled righteousness), there by able to impute righteousness unto others... it seems to have a relation with the fact that he was not as the Levitical priests that could die and no longer offer any sacrifices at all, but he offered once and for all and is returning again...Heb 9:22-10:22...

    any thoughts ??

    none the lest it is and excellent street preaching verse !
  5. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: 1 John 2:15, 16   



    Prov. 18:1-2 Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom. A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

    A book could be easly writen on this subject, but i believe the above scriptures cover it pretty well...

    It is the image, spirit, wisdom and understanding, of the world that we must seperate from, tbat we may run that we may attain....

    The differance is in the heart of the indevidual, is he carnally minded or spiritually minded...it is hard to find those that answer the call to be a soilder, and with singleness of heart strive for the objective, (exspeiclely in the laodician church age) most are like the church in wilderness they want to rasenallize things in " thier own under standing" and " compare them selfves among them selves" but every once in a wial you find a joshua or a caleb that have a differant spirit about them...

    1 cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    Phi 3:14-15 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

    --from my observations if a man has been under sound hard preaching for 3-5 years and has not fallen in love with the objective, he will not "understand" these things and his heart will decieve him into. Leaning on his own understanding... this is be cause he is carnally minded. / not spiritually minded " rom 8"

    Phi 3: 16-21Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

    -- paul is our exalmple, of how to be a living sacerfice ( be not conformed into the image of this world)

    Phi 3: 18-21 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Concerning the world and love of God... let us concider the next few verse
    john 17 :14-21, psalm 22:31, john14:31, 2 cor 6:1
    i will. Be preaching on this tomarrow night.. we are to stand aganst the world by the word of G od just like jesus did and paul is our example of how to be a living sacerfice...i som how just can not seea paul at the sports game, or watching a movie with the family, it seems like he was seperated from the world, and some wold call that extreme, but i would like to say

    * Why shouldn' t we be a peculiar people, jesus was...


    Arise and let us go hense

    [singing] the world behind me the cross before me, the world behind me the cross before me, no turning back, no turning back...

    Just a few thoughts from a man that chose to be spiritually minded
  6. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: How Would You Reply To This Statement.   



    Entertainment, Hollywood, t.v., ungodly music, whoring around on the internet...ect...ect...

    "The unfruitfulworks of darness" have been molesting our youth from the time that them can see and understand.... this is the great molester of our children & of the church, in these days..

    psalm 119:37. Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

    2 cor 7: 1. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    * are you alowing the prince of the power of the air to molest your children, and did you teach them how to justify this iniquity?

    * do you contenue to participate in spiritual molestation, and did you teach your children to love the same. ?

    -- if it is not in all "goodness, righteousness, and truth" it is and unfruitful work of darkness, do we not realize that the dead are there and thier quests are of the depts of hell....

    Phi 3:20.... our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
  7. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Which Bible Version Can You Recommend?   



    Sister,
    What part of the P.I. are you from, and are you still living there, i have missionary friends in the. P.I. that may be able to get you some study materials... free of charge
  8. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Requirement For Salvation?   



    i did not read all the posts but i will answer the question

    because...

    (1) if he was not the Son of God then he was just a prophet of some type, or an ascended master as the Gnostic's like to say

    John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he , ye shall die in your sins.

    (2) the resurection authenticates the name of Jesus

    Romans 1:2-4 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

    Romans 6:9-10 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him . For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

    Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost .

    (3) here is a logic chain of the name of God, shewing that the name of Jesus is the foundation of N.T. faith, and that the resurrection authentacated it



    A logic chain From the WORD OF GOD



    the king James bible



    I. Creator accou nt authe nt icated by God, exo 3:1-15

    * giving Moses his name I AM THAT I AM
    * I am declaring that he is God and there is none else, no beginning no end, the Alpha and the omega the
    * beginning and the end I AM THAT I AM
    * Became bases for Israel believing Moses to take them out of Egypt

    II. Once out of Egypt Israel authe nt icated God’s name exo 3:19-22, exo 14:30-31, exo 15:1-22, exo 29:46,
    · * Shewed him self God by exerting his power to bring his word to pass

    III. By God’s name authe nt icated, the law can be established exo 24:12-18

    IV. The prophets based there prophecies on the law of God luke 24:25-27, 2 peter 1:19-21, duet 18:15-22

    V. Fulfilled prophecy authe nt icates the law is 42:9

    VI. Jesus resurrection is based on the law and the prophets it fulfilled the law & established N.T. faith
    * the name of Jesus is the foundation of N.T. faith rom 1:2-6, 1st john 5:11-13, rom 10:13

    1 st John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ…


    i hope this is a help and a blessing
  9. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Is Repentance The Same As Faith?   



    ok so lets say this man has repented, by your def. he admits something he already knows, which is he is a sinner, and this is a change of heart

    he now can confess his sins to God, because he is in agreement with him [ this is what you have said right ] that he is a sinner, and now there is salvation for him because he has something to repent of

    now my question

    * dose he have to confess his sins in order to be saved ?
    * if so what Emphasis do you put on this and why ?
    * is there any thing else he must do in order to be saved, according to your bible understanding ?
  10. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Is Repentance The Same As Faith?   




    Amen brother

    i see what you are saying, and you somewhat stand against the common preaching of repentance, for close to the same reason i do...

    some preach repent of your sins, and ask God to forgive you...instead of give up all hope in yourself, your religion, and receive Jesus by faith...and for this reason i preach against the way ​that they are preaching repentance...and it seems to me that you take a simular stand, but a different approach

    i oft times try to reason with preachers that they can not expect sinners to repent of sins that have not repented them (the sinner) if they did it would only be lip service...and God dose not expect them to either, they are still under dominion of sin (the servants of sin) it's not about trying to get sinners to confess their sins to God, it is about getting them to stop trying to justify their sin's and creating (our trying to be) their own God.. it is about getting sinners to see that " Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right u nt o a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death ." and that Jesus is " John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh u nt o the Father, but by me." that they will repent of their way, and turn to God's way... they must submit to God's righteousness and " Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth ." the resurection authenticated the name of Jesus " Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead :" the name of Jesus is the foundation of N.T. faith " Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved ." 1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God ; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

    i have been edified through this conversation, and i now will say that a man can be saved by only Faith (receiving Jesus by faith) if ​he has no prior religious belief, now if he dose have a religious pretense he must repent of this pretense at the hearing of the word of God " Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God ."




    yes the world dose view repentance in this way, and sad to say many preachers preach it to them this way (but they think they don't ), now the church is who this repe nt ance should be preached to, and if the church would repe nt , would we n ot soon see revival ?
  11. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Is Repentance The Same As Faith?   



    brother i have a question... i'm not trying to start a fight just have a question, may be you see something i don't and can shine some light my way





    first i will say i agree completely, my question is : on the first quote what brings you to divide a sharp line in the fact of the repentance to the jews and the faith to the gentiles ?

    is it just because the sequence in which it is written... repentance/jews faith/gentiles... or do you have a scripture on scripture, ref. that you are going by, i can not see clearly how this sharp of a line can be drawn in the middle of this verse, at this point in the book of acts

    scripture to support the 2nd qu ot e

    acts 2

    v.s. 14 co nt ext Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem
    v.s. 22 co nt ext Ye men of Israel, hear these words
    v.s. 36 co nt ext Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly , that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    v.s. 37-40
    Acts 2:37-40 Now when they heard this , they (jews) were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (jews)Then Peter said unto them (jews), Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise (the kingdom) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this u nt oward generation .

    Save yourselves from this u nt oward generation . at this time a co nt inuance of the gospel of the kingdom was being preached, and i believe he was speaking of the matthew 25 judgement...for the children of isreal had said "let his blood be upon us and our children"

    more over latter on in the apostolic age the gospel of the kingdom is still being preached and isreal is the focus and it is said

    Acts 5:30-32 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repe nt ance to Israe l, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    acts 5:17 --- the high preasts rose up aganst them
    Acts 7:1 Then said the high priest, Are these things so? } this was isreal's last chance to receive the witness... they then rejected the holy ghost just like they had rejected, the father 1 sam 8:7 , and the son mat 23:36-39, luke 19:41-48

    ​so i can see repe nt ance connected with the jews ( at this point ) , but i can n ot see the focus on the jews at this latter poi nt in the book of acts

    how ever i do see repentance not as a turning from sin but as a "by what authority do you attain righteousness" being preached to both jew and greek, in the church age


    i.e. Romans 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness , and going about to establish their own righteousness , have not submitted themselves u nt o the righteousness of God . For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    therefor i see repentance in rom 10:10
    Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth u nt o righteousness ; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    [confession] not of sins but of taking owner ship to Gods righteousness by faith in the name of Jesus, by submitting to it, now one can not submit to God's righteousness unless he repents of his own righteousness (what ever form it is in)

    i see also repentance represented in act 17 the same way toward some gentiles

    acts 17:22-29
    Acts 17:22-23 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

    Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

    * worshiping false Gods, to attain false righteousness

    Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men , in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    * is not Paul preaching repentance, not of sin but of religious authority/religious belief ?
    *and is it not to the gentiles ?
    *if in acts 20:21 repentance is only being spoken to the jews then why ?

    in the light of the gospel of the kingdom no longer being preached ( rom 2:16 ) ? for i have no doubt they where being told to repe nt of there sins (in particular, crucifying Jesus) but later i see repe nt ance preached to b ot h jew and ge nt ile in the form of religious authority and means of justification by God's righteousness
  12. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Denominational Divisions Are Doctrinal   



    amen !
  13. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Denominational Divisions Are Doctrinal   



    this is true... i would like to say also, that even in many of our IFB churches that i have been through and preached at, when they lead people to the Lord, their tactics are to get that person to say "sorry God please forgive me" thus if they can get the person to say yes to a few questions and then pray they say "O praise God" and then proceed to cram eternal security down their throat as quickly as possible

    wherein a much wiser approach would be to strategically cause that person to realize he must SUBMIT TO GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS and call upon his name by faith (the name of Jesus is the foundation of N.T. faith) in so doing receiving the atonement rom 5:11, 1 john 5:12-13

    the tactics are watered down, i believe mostly in part to the fact that we are living in laodica times, and many a Christian are desperate to see people saved. therefor they don't lead men to repentance and point them to the cross, they lead them to a pray and intellectual knowledge that has not effected the heart of the profess-er of belief

    the repentance that is to be lead to is a repentance of false belief, that's what Paul preached and that's what we need to preach. not repenting of sin, they can not repent of sin wail they are still the servants of sin. it is an authority issue not a propensity issue.

    Acts 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness , temperance , and judgme nt to come , Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

    * righteousness - self righteousness/ Gods righeousness
    * temperance - no power over sin, sevant of sin
    * judgme nt to come - no power in the day of judgment, no means of justification

    let use keep in mind the context of rom 10 before we just follow the romans road and stand before God with bloody hands

    Romans 10:1-5 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved . For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge . For they being ignorant of God's righteousness , and going about to establish their own righteousness , have n ot submitted themselves u nt o the righteousness of God . For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth .

    Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved . For with the heart man believeth u nt o righteousness ; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 2 cor 5:21, phi 3:9, rom 3:23-26

    that right there is where you find repe nt ance in rom chp. 10

    = Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

    faith in his name calling upon him to receive the atonement - which is "the blood applied" = remission of sins, justification in the day of judgment
  14. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Innocent Amusements   

    Finney, Charles G. - Innoce nt Amuseme nt s
    We hear much said, and read much, in these days, of indulging in innocent amusements. I heard a minister, some time since, in addressing a large company of young people, say that he had spent much time in devising innocent amusements for the young. Within a few years I have read several sermons and numerous articles pleading for more amusements than have been customary with religious people. With your consent, I wish to suggest a few thoughts upon this subject first, what are not, and, secondly, what are innocent amusements.
    1st. This is a question of morals.
    2nd. All intelligent acts of a moral agent must be either right or wrong. Nothing is innocent in a moral agent that is not in accordance with the law and gospel of God.
    3rd. The moral character of any and every act of a moral agent resides in the motive or the ultimate reason for the act. This I take to be self-evident and universally admitted.
    4th. Now, what is the rule of judgment in this case? How are we to decide whether any given act of amusement is right or wrong, innocent or sinful? I answer:
    1st. By the moral law, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart," etc., "and thy neighbor as thyself." No intelligent act of a moral agent is innocent or right unless it proceeds from and is an expression of supreme love to God and equal love to man in other words, unless it is benevolent.
    2nd. The Gospel. This requires the same: "Therefore, whether ye eat or drink, or whatever ye do, do all to the glory of God." "Do all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."
    3rd. Right reason affirms the same thing.
    Now, in the light of this rule, it is plain that it is not innocent to engage in amusements merely to gratify the desire for amusement. We may not innocently eat or drink to gratify the desire for food or drink. To eat or drink merely to gratify appetite is innocent enough in a mere animal, but in a moral agent it is a sin. A moral agent is bound to have a higher ultimate motive to eat and drink that he may be strong and healthy for the service of God. God has made eating and drinking pleasant to us; but this pleasure ought not to be our ultimate reason for eating and drinking. So amusements are pleasant, but this does not justify us in seeking amusements to gratify desire. Mere animals may do this innocently, because they are incapable of any higher motive. But moral agents are under a higher law, and are bound to have another and a higher aim than merely to gratify the desire for amusements. Therefore, no amusement is innocent which is engaged in for the pleasure of the amusement, any more than it would be innocent to eat and drink for the pleasure of it. Again, no amusement is innocent that is engaged in because we need amusements. We need food and drink; but this does not justify us in eating and drinking simply because we need it. The law of God does not say, "Seek whatever ye need because ye need it"; but, "Do all from love to God and man." A wicked man might eat and drink selfishly that is, to make his body strong to execute his selfish plans but this eating and drinking would be sin notwithstanding he needed food and drink.
    Nothing is innocent unless it proceeds from supreme love to God and equal love to man, unless the supreme and ultimate motive be to please and honor God. In other words, to be innocent, any amusement must be engaged in because it is believed to be at the time most pleasing to God, and is intended to be a service rendered to Him, as that which, upon the whole, will honor Him more than anything else that we can engage in for the time being. I take this to be self-evident. What then? It follows:
    1st. That none but benevolent amusements can be innocent. Fishing and shooting for amusement are not innocent. We may fish and hunt for the same reason that we are allowed to eat and drink to supply nature with aliment, that we may be strong in the service of God. We may hunt to destroy noxious animals, for the glory of God and the interests of His kingdom. But fishing and hunting to gratify a passion for these sports is not innocent. Again, no amusement can be innocent that involves the squandering of precious time, that might be better employed to the glory of God and the good of man. Life is short. Time is precious. We have but one life to live. Much is to be done. The world is in darkness. A world of sinners are to be enlightened, and, if possible, saved. We are required to work while the day lasteth. Our commission and work require dispatch. No time is to be lost. If our hearts are right, our work is pleasant. If rightly performed it affords the highest enjoyment and is itself the highest amusement. No turning aside for amusement can be innocent that involves any unnecessary loss of time. No man that realizes the greatness of the work to be done, and loves to do it, can turn aside for any amusement involving an unnecessary waste of time.
    Again, no amusement can be innocent that involves an unnecessary expenditure of the Lord's money. All our time and all our money are the Lord's. We are the Lord's. We may innocently use both time and money to promote the Lord's interests and the highest interests of man, which are the Lord's interests. But we may not innocently use either for our own pleasure and gratification. Expensive journeys for our own pleasure and amusement, and not indulged in with a single eye to the glory of God, are not innocent amusements, but sinful. Again, in the light of the above rule of judgment, we see that no form of amusement is lawful for an unconverted sinner. Nothing in him is innocent. While he remains impenitent and unbelieving, does not love God and his neighbor according to God's command, there is for him no innocent employment or amusement; all is sin.
    And right here I fear that many are acting under a great delusion.
    The loose manner in which this subject is viewed by many professors of religion, and even ministers, is surprising and alarming. Some time since, in a sermon, I remarked that there were no lawful employments or innocent amusements for sinners. An aged clergyman who was present said, after service, that it was ridiculous to hold that nothing was lawful or innocent in an impenitent sinner. I replied: "I thought you were orthodox. Do you not believe in the universal necessity of regeneration by the Holy Spirit?" He replied: "Yes." I added: "Do you believe that an unregenerate soul does anything acceptable to God? Before his heart is changed, does he ever act from a motive that God can accept, in anything whatever? Is he not totally depraved, in the sense that his heart is all wrong, and therefore his actions must be all wrong?" He appeared embarrassed, saw the point, and subsided.
    Whatever is lawful in a moral agent or according to the law of God is right. If anyone, therefore, engages lawfully in any employment or in any amusement, he must do so from supreme love to God and equal love to his neighbor; and is, therefore, not an impenitent sinner, but a Christian. It is simply absurd and a contradiction to say that an impenitent soul does, or says, or omits anything with a right heart. If impenitent, his ultimate motive must necessarily be wrong; and, consequently, nothing in him is innocent, but all must be sinful. What, then, is an innocent amusement? It must be that and that only which not only might be but actually is engaged in with a single eye to God's glory and the interests of His kingdom. If this be not the ultimate and supreme design, it is not an innocent, but a sinful amusement. Now, right here is the delusion of many persons, I fear. When speaking of amusements, they say: "What harm is there in them?" In answering to themselves and others this question, they do not penetrate to the bottom of it. If on the surface they see nothing contrary to morality, they judge that the amusement is innocent. They fail to inquire into the supreme and ultimate motive in which the innocence or sinfulness of the act is found. But apart from the motive no course of action is either innocent or sinful, any more than the motions of a machine or the acts of a mere animal are innocent or sinful. No act or course of action should, therefore, be adjudged as either innocent or sinful without ascertaining the supreme motive of the person who acts.
    To teach, either directly or by implication, that any amusement of an impenitent sinner or of a backslider is innocent is to teach a gross and ruinous heresy. Parents should remember this in regard to the amusements of their unconverted children. Sabbath school teachers and superintendents who are planning amusements for their Sabbath schools, preachers who spend their time in planning amusements for the young, who lead their flocks to picnics, in pleasure excursions, and justify various games, should certainly remember that, unless they are in a holy state of heart, and do all this from supreme love to God and a design in the highest degree to glorify
    God thereby, these ways of spending time are by no means innocent, but highly criminal, and those who teach people to walk in these ways are simply directing the channels in which their depravity shall run. For be it ever remembered that, unless these things are indulged in from supreme love to God and designed to glorify Him, unless they are, in fact, engaged in with a single eye to the glory of God, they are not innocent, but sinful amusements. I must say again, and, if possible, still more emphatically, that it is not enough that they might be engaged in as the best way, for the time being, to honor and please God; but they must be actually engaged in from supreme love to God, with the ultimate design to glorify Him. If such, then, is the true doctrine of innocent amusements, let no impenitent sinner and no backslidden Christian suppose for a moment that it is possible for him to engage in any innocent amusement. If it were true, as the aged minister to whom I have referred and many others seem to believe, that impenitent sinners or backsliders can and do engage in innocent amusements, the very engaging in such amusements, being lawfully right and innocent in them, would involve a change of heart in the unconverted, and a return to God in the backslider.
    For no amusement is lawful unless it be engaged in as a love-service rendered to God and with design to please and glorify Him. It must not only be a love service, but, in the judgment of the one who renders it, it must be the best service that, for the time being, he can render to God a service that will be more pleasing to Him and more useful to His kingdom than any other that can be engaged in at the time. Let these facts be borne in mind when the question of engaging in amusements comes up for decision. And remember, the question in all such cases is not, "What harm is there in this proposed amusement?" but, "What good can it do?" "Is it the best way in which I can spend my time?" "Will it be more pleasing to God and more for the interest of His kingdom than anything else at present possible to me?" "If not, it is not an innocent amusement, and I cannot engage in it without sin."
    The question often arises: "Are we never to seek such amusements?" I answer: It is our privilege and our duty to live above a desire for such things. All that class of desires should be so subdued by living so much in the light of God, and having so deep a communion with Him as to have no relish for such amusements whatever. It certainly is the privilege of every child of God to walk so closely with Him, and maintain so divine a communion with Him, as not to feel the necessity of worldly excitements, sports, pastimes, and entertainments to make his enjoyment satisfactory. If a Christian avails himself of his privilege of communion with God, he will naturally and by an instinct of his new nature repel solicitations to go after worldly amusements. To him such pastimes will appear low, unsatisfactory, and even repulsive. If he is of a heavenly mind, as he ought to be, he will feel as if he could not afford to come down and seek enjoyment in worldly amusements. Surely, a Christian must be fallen from his first love, he must have turned back into the world, before he can feel the necessity or have the desire of seeking enjoyment in worldly sports and pastimes. A spiritual mind cannot seek enjoyment in worldly society. To such a mind that society is necessarily repulsive. Worldly society is insincere, hollow, and to a great extent a sham. What relish can a spiritual mind have for the gossip of a worldly party of pleasure? None whatever. To a mind in communion with God their worldly spirit and ways, conversation and folly is repulsive and painful, as it is so strongly suggestive of the downward tendency of their souls, and of the destiny that awaits them. I have had so marked an experience of both sides of this question that I think I cannot be mistaken. Probably but few persons enjoy worldly pleasure more intensely than I did before I was converted; but my conversion, and the spiritual baptism which immediately followed it, completely extinguished all desire for worldly sports and amusements. I was lifted at once into entirely another plane of life and another kind of enjoyment. From that hour to the present the mode of life, the pastimes, sports, amusements, and worldly ways that so much delighted me before have not only failed to interest me, but I have had a positive aversion to them. I have never felt them necessary to, or even compatible with, a truly rational enjoyment. I do not speak boastingly; but for the honor of Christ and His religion, I must say that my Christian life has been a happy one. I have had as much enjoyment as is probably best for men to have in this life, and never for an hour have I had the desire to turn back and seek enjoyment from anything the world can give. But some may ask: "Suppose we do not find sufficient enjoyment in religion, and really desire to go after worldly amusements. If we have the disposition, is it not as well to gratify it?" "Is there any more sin in seeking amusements than in entertaining a longing for them?" I reply that a longing for them should never be entertained. It is the privilege and therefore the duty of everyone to rise, through grace, above a hungering and thirsting for the fleshpots of Egypt, worldly pastimes and time-wasting amusements. The indulgence of such longings is not innocent. One should not ask whether the longing should be gratified, but whether it should not be displaced by a longing for the glory of God and His kingdom.
    Professed Christians are bound to maintain a life consistent with their profession. For the honor of religion, they ought to deny worldly lusts; and not, by seeking to gratify them, give occasion to the world to scoff and say that Christians love the world as well as they do.
    If professors of religion are backslidden in heart, and entertain a longing for worldly sports and amusements, they are bound by every consideration of duty and decency to abstain from all outward manifestation of such inward lustings. Some have maintained that we should conform to the ways of the world somewhat at least, enough to show that we can enjoy the world and religion too; and that we make religion appear repulsive to unconverted souls by turning our backs upon what they call their innocent amusements. But we should represent religion as it really is as living above the world, as consisting in a heavenly mind, as that which affords an enjoyment so spiritual and heavenly as to render the low pursuits and joys of worldly men disagreeable and repulsive. It is a sad stumbling-block to the unconverted to see professed Christians seeking pleasure or happiness from this world. Such seeking is a misrepresentation of the religion of Jesus. It misleads, bewilders, and confounds the observing outsider. If he ever reads his Bible, he cannot but wonder that souls who are born of God and have communion with Him should have any relish for worldly ways and pleasures. The fact is that thoughtful unconverted men have little or no confidence in that class of professing Christians who seek enjoyment from this world. They may profess to have, and may loosely think of such as being liberal and good Christians. They may flatter them, and commend their religion as being the opposite of fanaticism and bigotry, and as being such a religion as they like to see; but there is no real sincerity in such professions on the part of the impenitent.
    In my early Christian life I heard a Methodist bishop from the South report a case that made a deep impression on my mind. He said there was in his neighborhood a slave holder, a gentleman of fortune, who was a gay and agreeable man, and gave himself much to various field sports and amusements. He used to associate much with his pastor, often invite him to dinner, and to accompany him in his sports and pleasure-seeking excursions of various kinds. The minister cheerfully complied with these requests, and a friendship grew up between the pastor and his parishioner that continued till the last sickness of this gay and wealthy man. When the wife of this worldling was apprised that her husband could live but a short time she was much alarmed for his soul, and tenderly inquired if she should not call in their minister to converse and pray with him. He feelingly replied: "No, my dear; he is not the man for me to see now. He was my companion, as you know, in worldly sports and pleasure-seeking; he loved good dinners and a jolly time. I then enjoyed his society and found him a pleasant companion. But I see now that I never had any real confidence in his piety, and have now no confidence in the efficacy of his prayers. I am now a dying man, and need the instruction and prayers of somebody that can prevail with God. We have been much together, but our pastor has never been in serious earnest with me about the salvation of my soul, and he is not the man to help me now." The wife was greatly affected, and said: "What shall I do, then?" He replied: "My coachman, Tom, is a pious man. I have confidence in his prayers. I have often overheard him pray, when about the barn or stables, and his prayers have always struck me as being quite sincere and earnest. I never heard any foolishness from him. He has always been honest and earnest as a Christian man. Call him."
    Tom was called, and came within the door, dropping his hat and looking tenderly and compassionately at his dying master. The dying man put forth his hand, saying: "Come here, Tom. Take my hand. Tom, can you pray for your dying master?" Tom poured out his soul in earnest prayer. I cannot remember the name of this bishop, it was so long ago; but the story I well remember as an illustration of the mistake into which many professors and some ministers fall, supposing that we recommend religion to the unconverted by mingling with them in their pleasures and their running after amusements. I have seen many illustrations of this mistake. Christians should live so far above the world as not to need or seek its pleasures, and thus recommend religion to the world as a source of the highest and purest happiness. The peaceful look, the joyful countenance, the spiritual serenity and cheerfulness of a living Christian recommend religion to the unconverted. Their satisfaction in God, their holy joy, their living above and shunning the ways and amusements of worldly minds, impress the unconverted with a sense of the necessity and desirableness of a Christian life. But let no man think to gain a really Christian influence over another by manifesting a sympathy with his worldly aspirations.
    Now, is this rule a yoke of bondage? I do not wonder that it has created in some minds not a little disturbance. The pleasure loving and pleasure seeking members of the Church regard the rule as impracticable, as a strait jacket, as a bondage. But to whom is it a straitjacket and a bondage? To whom is it impracticable? Surely it is not and cannot be to any who love God with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves. It certainly cannot be so regarded by a real Christian, for all real Christians love God supremely. Their own interests and their own pleasure are regarded as nothing as compared with the interests and good pleasure of God. They, therefore, cannot seek amusements unless they believe themselves called of God to do so. By a law of our nature we seek to please those whom we supremely love. Also, by a law of our nature, we find our highest happiness in pleasing those whom we supremely love; and we supremely please ourselves when we seek not at all to please ourselves, but to please the object of our supreme affection. Therefore, Christians find their highest enjoyment and their truest pleasure in pleasing God and in seeking the good of their fellow-men; and they enjoy this service all the more because enjoyment is not what they seek, but what they inevitably experience by a law of their nature.
    This is a fact of Christian consciousness. The highest and purest of all amusements is found in doing the will of God. Mere worldly amusements are cold and insipid and not worthy of naming in comparison with the enjoyment we find in doing the will of God. To one who loves God supremely it is natural to seek amusements, and everything else that we do seek, with supreme reference to the glory of God. Why, then, should this rule be regarded as too strict, as placing the standard too high, and as being a strait jacket and a bondage? How, then, are we to understand those who plead so much for worldly amusements?
    From what I have heard and read upon this subject within the last few years, I have gathered that these pleaders for amusements have thought that there was more enjoyment to be gained from these amusements than from the service of God. They remind me of a sentence that I used to have as a copy when a school-boy: "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." They seem to assume that the service of God is work in the sense of being a task and a burden; that to labor and pray and preach to win souls to Christ, to commune with God and perform the duties of religion is so wearisome, not to say irksome, that we need a good many playdays; that the love of Christ is not satisfactory; that we must have frequent resort to worldly amusements to make life tolerable. Christ on one occasion said to His disciples: "Come aside and rest awhile." This is not wonderful when we consider that they were often so thronged as not to have time even to eat their ordinary meals. But it was not amusement that they sought; simplify rest from their labors of love, in which labors they must have had the greatest enjoyment.
    I often ask myself: "What can it mean that so many of our highly fed and most popular preachers are pleading so much for amusements?" They seem to be leading the Church off in a direction in which she is the most in danger. It is no wonder that lay men and women are easily led in that direction, for such teaching exactly accords with the innumerable temptations to worldliness which are presented to the Church on every side. The Bible is replete with instruction upon this subject, which is the direct opposite of these pleas for worldly amusements. These teachers plead for fun, hilarity, jesting, plays, and games, and such things as worldly minds love and enjoy; but the Bible exhorts to sobriety, heavenly-mindedness, unceasing prayer, and a close and perpetual walk with God. The Bible everywhere assumes that all real enjoyment is found in this course of life, that all true peace of mind is found in communion with God and in being given up to seek His glory as the constant and supreme end of life. It exhorts us to watchfulness, and informs us that for every idle word we must give account in the Day of Judgment.
    It nowhere informs us that fun and hilarity are the source of rational enjoyment; it nowhere encourages us to expect to maintain a close walk with God, to have peace of mind and joy in the Holy Ghost, if we gad about to seek amusements. And is not the teaching of the Bible on this subject in exact accordance with human experience? Do we need to have the pulpit turn advocate of worldly amusements? Is not human depravity strong enough in that direction, without being stimulated by the voice of the preacher? Has the Church worked so hard for God and souls, are Christians so overdone with their exhausting efforts to pull sinners out of the fire, that they are in danger of becoming insane with religious fervor and need that the pulpit and the press should join in urging them to turn aside and seek amusements and have a little fun?
    What can it mean? Why, is it not true that nearly all our dangers are on this side? Is not human nature in its present state so strongly tending in these directions that we need to be on our guard, and constantly to exhort the Church not to be led away after amusements and fun, to the destruction of their souls? But to come back to the question: To whom is it a bondage, to be required to have a single eye to the good pleasure and glory of God in all that we do? Who finds it hard to do so? Christ says His yoke is easy and His burden is light. The requirement to do all for the glory of God is surely none other than the yoke of Christ. It is His expressed will. Who finds this a hard yoke and a heavy burden? It is not hard or heavy to a willing, loving mind.
    Just the thing here required is natural and inevitable to everyone that truly loves God and is truly devoted to the Savior. What is devotion to Jesus but a heart set upon rendering Him a loving obedience in all things? What is Christian liberty but the privilege of doing that which Christians most love to do that is, in all things to fulfill the good pleasure of their blessed Lord? Turn aside from saving souls to seek amusements! As if there could be a higher and diviner pleasure than is found in laboring for the salvation of souls. It cannot be. There can be no higher enjoyment found in this world than is found in pulling souls out of the fire and bringing them to Christ. I am filled with amazement when I read and hear the appeals to the Church to seek more worldly amusements. Do we need, can we have any fuller and higher satisfaction than is found in a close, serious, loving walk with God and cooperation with Him in fitting souls for heaven?
    All that I hear said to encourage the people of God in seeking amusements appears to me to proceed from a worldly, instead of a spiritual state of mind. Can it be possible that a soul in communion with God and, of course, yearning with compassion over dying men, struggling from day to day in agonizing prayer for their salvation, should entertain the thought of turning aside to seek amusement? Can a pastor in whose congregation are numbers of unsaved souls, and amongst whose membership are many worldly-minded professors of religion, turn aside and lead or accompany his Church in a backsliding movement to gain worldly pleasure? There are always enough in every Church who are easily led astray in that direction. But who are they that most readily fall in with such a movement? Who are ready to come to the front when a picnic, a pleasure excursion, a worldly party, or other pleasure-seeking movements are proposed? Are they, in fact, the class that always attend prayer meetings, that are always in a revival state of mind? Do they belong to the class whose faces shine from day to day with the peace of God pervading their souls? Are they the Aarons and Hurs that stay up the hands of their pastor with continual and prevailing prayer? Are they spiritual members, whose conversation is in heaven and who mind not earthly things? Who does not know that it is the worldly members in the Church who are always ready for any movement in the direction of worldly pleasure or amusement, and that the truly spiritual, prayerful, heavenly-minded members are shy of all such movements? They are not led into them without urging, and weep in secret places when they see their pastor giving encouragement to that which is likely to be so great a stumbling-block to both the Church and to the world.
    Pres. Finney, in forwarding his revision of the above tract for publication by the Willard Tract Repository, accompanied it with a note to Dr. Cullis, in which he said: "The previous pages contain a condensation of three short articles that I published in the Independent. I recollect that the editor of the Advance, and one of the editors of the Independent, both of whom had published what I regard as very loose views, approving and recommending the worldly amusements of Christians, criticized those articles with an asperity that seemed to indicate that they were nettled by them. They so far perverted them as to assert that they taught asceticism, and the prohibition of rest, recreation, and all amusements. I regard the doctrine of this tract as strictly Biblical and true. But, to avoid all such unjust inferences and cavils, add the following lines.
    "Let no one say that the doctrine of this tract prohibits all rest, recreation, and amusement whatever. It does not. It freely admits all rest, recreation, and amusement that is regarded, by the person who resorts to it, as a condition and means of securing health and vigor of body and mind with which to promote the cause of God. This tract only insists, as the Bible does, that whether we eat or drink,' rest, recreate, or amuse ourselves, all must be done as a service rendered to God. God must be our end. To please Him must be our aim in everything, or we sin."
  15. frontline_preacher added a post in a topic: Innocent Amusements   

    please do n ot turn it i nt o a discussion of how much a heretic you think finney is

    i would like to here some input on this article from Charles finney, as it relates to such verses as

    Ephesians 5:14-18 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is . And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

    Romans 13:11-14 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof .

    ect. ect....

    read attachment... i will also post article... it is a little lengthy

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  1. frontline_preacher

    bread of affliction is an acquired taste, disciples learn to live on it

  2. frontline_preacher

    bread of affliction is an acquired taste, disciples learn to live off it

  3. frontline_preacher

    bread of affliction is and acquired taste, disciples learn to live off it

  4. frontline_preacher

    Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

    1. Daniel Gladu

      Amen!