Pastor Scott Markle

*Independent Fundamental Baptist
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About Pastor Scott Markle

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    http://www.shepherdingtheflock.com

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    Melvin, MI
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    Yes

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  • Bio
    My name is Scott Markle, and I have served the Lord my God and Savior in pastoral ministry since 1992. I have served as the pastor of Melvin Baptist Church, a small country church in the Thumb area of Michigan, since 1998. I have been joyfully married to my beloved wife Kerry since 1993; and we have been blessed of the Lord with two sons, Padraic and Westley.

    My life-verses are Philippians 3:8 and John 15:4-5. "Yea, doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ." "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine: no more can ye except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in, and I in him, the same bringeth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." The burden of my life is to pursue "the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord" and to walk daily abiding in Christ, and Christ in me.

    Concerning all my ministry, it is the burden of my heart to exalt, not myself, but the name of Jesus Christ and the truth of God's Word. It is my burden that Christ must increase, while I must decrease. Therefore, I maintain the policy that my name, as the author of a book, must remain smaller, while the phrase, "For the Glory of the Lord," must stand larger above it. Thus far the Lord our God has graciously allowed me to self-publish three books and a three booklets, as well as to produce a line of Scripture memory cards, which all can be purchased at my website: www.shepherdingtheflock.com. In addition, I maintain a monthly Bible study blog at that website.

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  1. Brother Young, You say - "The passage does not say we are condemned as sinners by Adam's sin . . . ." Yet Romans 5:18 says - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation." And Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." You say - ". . . That many are made sinners the same way many are made saints. By choice . . . ." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Brother, please consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your phrase, "many are made sinners," you use the present tense verb "are;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the past tense verb "were." These two tenses of verb do not mean the same thing. Furthermore, you use the preposition "by" in order to communicate the prepositional phrase, "by choice;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the preposition "by" in order to communicate the prepositional phrase, "by one man's disobedience." These two prepositional phrases "by choice" and "by one man's disobedience" do not mean the same thing. You say - "The fact is the bible never says all start out sinners because of Adam but that all become sinners." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Again brother, please consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your phrase, "that all become sinners," you use the verb "become;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the usage of the verb "were made." Now, the verb "become" is a present tense, active verb, indicating that the one's doing the activity of the verb is the subject, the "many" themselves; however, the verb "were made" is a past tense, passive verb, indicating that the activity of the verb was done upon or unto the subject, upon or unto the "many." These two verbs do not mean the same thing. You say - "MANY were Made Sinners because of Adam." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Yet again brother, please consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your statement you use the preposition, "because of;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the preposition "by." Now, both prepositions can be used to communicate cause; however, the preposition "by" communicates the specific cause and means by which. Furthermore, in your prepositional phrase, "because of Adam," the object of your prepositional phrase is "Adam" himself; however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired that the object of the prepositional phrase would be Adam's "disobedience." In your statement you present "Adam" himself as the cause; however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired that Adam's "disobedience" itself is the cause. These two prepositional phrases do not mean the same thing. You say - "Our sin, because of his example and the example of all flesh, condemns the soul, kills the spirit." Yet Romans 5:18 says - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation." Yet again brother, I challenge you to consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:18 actually says. In your statement you indicate that "our sin . . . condemns the soul;" however, in Romans 5:18 God the Holy Spirit inspired that "judgment came upon all man to condemnation" "by the offence of one," that is -- Adam. In your statement you use the present tense verb "condemns;" however, in Romans 5:18 God the Holy Spirit inspired the past tense verb "came" in the phrase "judgment came upon all men to condemnation." Furthermore, in your statement you indicate that the condition of condemnation is by "our sin;" however, in Romans 5:18 God the Holy Spirit inspired that this condition of "judgment . . . to condemnation" came (past tense) "by the offence of one." In your statement you present "our sin" as the cause; however, in Romans 5:18 God the Holy Spirit presents "the offence of one [Adam]" as the cause. These two teachings do not mean the same thing. You say - "Adam's offence condemned them al but did not automatically make any of them sinners." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Again brother, I challenge you to consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your statement you use the past tense verb "did make" with the negative adverb "not" in order to communicate the denial that Adam's offense "did not . . . make any of them sinners;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the past tense verb "were" without any negative adverb "not" in order to communicate the truth that by Adam's disobedience "many were made sinners." Now, certainly the phrase, "did not make any of them sinners," and the phrase, "were made sinners," do not mean the same thing, but actually mean the very opposite of each other. Herein then you have now come unto a direct denial of God's Holy Word as inspired by God's Holy Spirit. (By the way, if "Adam's offence condemned them all" (as you state in your above statement), then by the definition of the word "condemned" there are none who are "innocent.") You say - "I say "many were made sinners" by hiding iniquity in their heart like Adam did (Job 31:33)." Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Again brother, I challenge you to consider the difference in grammar between what you say and what Romans 5:19 actually says. In your statement you use the preposition "by" in order to present the prepositional phrasing, "by hiding iniquity in their heart like Adam did;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the use of the preposition "by" in order to present the prepositional phrase, "by one man's disobedience." In your statement "hiding iniquity in their heart" is the cause; however, in the Holy Spirit inspired statement of Romans 5:19 "one man's disobedience" is the cause. In your statement you indicate that the cause for being "made sinners" is (present tense) the activity of the "many," whereby they themselves are "hiding iniquity in their heart;" however, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired that the cause for the "many's" being "made sinners" was (past tense, for "were" is a past tense verb) the activity of "one man's [Adam's] disobedience." These two causes do not mean the same thing. In fact, Romans 5:19 does not indicate anything whatsoever at all about the activity of the "many." This verse only speaks about something that was done TO them by the cause of someone else's disobedience. _______________________________________________ You say - Many does not mean all . . . . Many means many not all. Actually, "many" means "a large number." That "large number" can indeed encompass "all," for "all" is indeed a large number. On the other hand, "many" can also encompass some number less than "all" as long as that number is "a large number." You say - Were does not mean are, Indeed, the past tense verb "were" doe NOT mean the same as the present tense verb "are," which I pointed out above as I confronted you for changing the past tense "were" into the present tense "are" in your statements of explanation. Indeed, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit inspired the truth that the time period wherein the "many" "were made sinners" was sometime in the past, not in the present; for the verb "were made" is indeed past tense. Furthermore, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit revealed the event in the past when the "many" "were made sinners" through revealing that they "were made sinners" "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience." They were not "made sinners" by some action of their own. Rather, they "were [past tense] made sinners" by the disobedience of Adam ("by one man's disobedience"). You say - Made does not mean original state . . . . Made means their was a process to it getting the finished product. Indeed, by definition the verb "made" does not refer unto an original state, unless perchance the cause which made them something occurred even before they existed. Now, at this point I shall speak more personally. I myself am absolutely certain that I am a part of the many about which the opening portion of Romans 5:19 speaks. Thus I am absolutely certain that "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience," I myself was [past tense] made a sinner. So then, did Adam's disobedience occur before I existed? Certainly, it did. First, I was in an original state of "non-existence." Then I was "made a sinner" at my conception by Adam's act disobedience, which he committed long before I even existed. You say - Sinners is a verb not a noun. Sinners is something that they do against God. Well, that is simply a grammatical error. The word "sinners" most certainly IS a noun. The verb is "to sin," with its various tense forms, such as "sinned, sinning, sins, shall sin, etc." Thus "sinners" is NOT "something that they do against God." Rather, "sinning" is something that they do against God; and "sinners" is something that they ARE before God. You say - Were here means they were one thing and became something, First, for the statement of Romans 5:19, it is grammatically incorrect to separate the helping verb "were" from the passive verb "made," which it grammatically is "helping." The verb in Romans 5:19 is NOT "were" alone. Rather, grammatically the verb in Romans 5:19 is "were made." Second, the verb "were" does not at all indicate a change in condition. It ONLY indicates a condition that existed in the past. If nothing occurred to change that past condition, then that past condition continues without change. Yet the closing portion of Romans 5:19 does reveal the possibility of a change from the condition of "sinners;" for it states, "So by the obedience of one shall [note the future tense] many be made righteous." You say - Because of Adam's offence many were made sinners because they did as Adam did. Yet Romans 5:19 says - "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners." As I have confronted above, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit did not inspire the use of the preposition "because of," but inspired the use of the preposition "by." Furthermore, in Romans 5:19 God the Holy Spirit did NOT inspire the inclusion of the phrase "because they did as Adam did;" therefore, this phrase is completely your addition unto that which God the Holy Spirit inspired.
  2. Brother Stafford, I believe that your position on this wise, and I respect it greatly. I certainly do NOT EVER want to counsel or recommend a fellow believer to sin against their own conscience. As such, I fully understand if you choose not to read any of that material which I have "suggested" above. I certainly wish that I knew of some books to recommend that would be from the Fundamental Baptist "position," quoting only from the King James translation. If I had, I would have recommended them. There may indeed be some. I myself just do not yet know about them.
  3. Brother Stafford, If I may provide a posting with a somewhat different focus, I thought that the following might be of some help to you also. My oldest son is presently in Bible college, training for pastoral ministry. In one of his classes, he was given the assignment to interview four pastors with the following question -- "How do believers change?" As might be expected, he chose to interview me (his father) as one of those four pastors. As such, I typed out my answer word-for-word; and I asked if he would send a copy to me. The following is that answer. How Do Believers Change? My return question -- Are we talking about how believers change to the good only, or how they change both to the good or to the bad? His answer -- The teacher did not specify, so just provide both. My response -- Believers change by submitting themselves to one or the other of the motivating spiritual influences within them. The two spiritual influences within believers are the Sprit and the flesh. The spirit is always characterized with God’s will as the priority. The flesh is always characterized with self-will as the priority. Believers change to the good by denying the selfish desires of the flesh and by yielding to the Godly direction of the Spirit. Believers change to the bad by quenching the Godly direction of the Spirit and by pursing the selfish desires of the flesh. As a believer yields more and more unto the Godly direction of the Spirit moment by moment, his motivations, thoughts, attitudes and determinations will become more and more governed by the will of Christ for the glory of God, and will become characterized by the fruit of the Spirit. As a believer pursues more and more the desires of the flesh moment by moment, his motivations, thoughts, attitudes, and determinations will be more and more governed by self-centeredness and self-interest, and will produce the works of the flesh. In order for a believer to move from walking after the flesh to walking after the Spirit, that believer must do as follow: He must recognize the specific selfish characteristic of the flesh. He must repent of that selfishness as a wicked offence against God. He must rejoice in the gracious forgiveness and cleansing of God. He must renew a pursuit after the fellowship of God. He must request the grace of God to resist the temptation in returning unto his selfishness. He must resist making any provision for his selfish flesh.
  4. Brother Stafford, Understood. I was not exactly sure what you were seeking, as far as the reading material; however, if it was along the lines of as "system," then the "system" of "nouthetic" counseling was the best that I knew to suggest. As I stated above, I certainly do NOT agree with everything that "nouthetic" counseling promotes; and your "red flag" issues would certainly be issues of concern for myself also. As a further note, I myself am NOT any kind of member in the "nouthetic" counseling "system;" and I have NO intention of engaging in their training courses. However, I HAVE read a small handful of books that find their source from authors that would be within that "system;" and I believe that they retain a much more Biblical pattern than other "system." Now, I do not know if you are at all willing to read a book which does not strictly use the King James translation. If you are, then the book, "Competent to Counsel," by Jay Adams MIGHT still be worth your time to read. Also, from within the "system" of "nouthetic" counseling, there ARE books written which seek to "debunk" various of the present trends in secular psychology. I myself have read one of these -- "Psychoheresy: The Psychological Seduction of Christianity," by Martin and Deidre Bobgan. Again, I am NOT expressing full agreement therewith; however, I did find some of the information of value. Another book that I read in relation to this matter is "Blame It on the Brain? - Distinguishing Chemical Imbalances, Brain Disorders, and Disobedience" by Edward Welch. Yet again, I am NOT expressing full agreement; but it also was of some value. Brother, if you are not at all willing to read a book which does not strictly use the King James translation, or which is not strictly from a Fundamental Baptist position of doctrine and separation, then please understand that I am not seeking to lead you against your conscience in the matter; nor do I desire to offend you with the above suggestions. I am just seeking to present what little of an answer that I have for suggested reading material. As for myself, I still hold very strongly that God's Word is my best source to guide how I personally counsel others. Again, I pray that these thoughts may be of some help for you; and I thank you for your willingness at least to consider them.
  5. Brother Stafford, I myself believe that the very best book for the matter of "psychology" (that is -- the study of the soul) is God's Holy Word. Mankind can only observe (study) the soul from the outside; therefore, all of human psychology is foundationally a behavioral study. However, the Lord our God can observe and even KNOW the soul from the inside; therefore, His Word deals with the soul foundationally from a spiritual perspective of "inner-man" character. However, if you are seeking for reading material concerning a "system" of "psychology" that is more rooted to a Biblical foundation, I myself would suggest a consideration of those authors who would follow the "system" of "nouthetic counseling." This "system" of "psychological" counseling was first promoted by Jay Adams, beginning with his book, "Competent to Counsel." The reason that this "system" is called "nouthetic" counseling is because the word "nouthetic" originates from a Greek verb that means "to admonish." Thus "nouthetic" counseling is primarily a "confrontational" form of counseling, which confronts SIN from a Biblical perspective and calls for REPENTANCE of that sin in order to initiate change. I myself do NOT agree with everything that is promoted within the "system" of "nouthetic" counseling. However, at the present time, I believe that it is the closest "system" of "psychological" counseling unto the Biblical pattern. (Note: There may be a "system" out there that is closer to the Biblical pattern which I myself have not yet encountered.) I pray that these thoughts will be of some help to you in this matter. (By the way, thank you for the "compliment" at the beginning of your posting.)
  6. Well, Brother Young, The opening six words of your above posting appear to reveal that you did NOT understand AT ALL the point of my presentation; for there is NOT a SINGLE word in my entire presentation that places the definition and application of the word "all" in contrast or conflict with the definition and application of the word "many" (as is indicated by your use of the abbreviation "vs"). Throughout my entire presentation the word "all" retains its meaning of "all human individuals since Adam." There is NOT a SINGLE time wherein I indicate that the word "all" means anything different than this. Rather, the entire presentation is intended as a contextual study concerning the meaning and application of the word "MANY" in Romans 5:15 & Romans 5:19, wherein I indicate from the context that in some cases the word "MANY" is used as a reference and equivalent to "all" and in other cases is used as a reference to "a large number among all." Certainly, Calvinists do often attempt to redefine the word "all" in some contexts as referring only unto some among all. However, since (as I have stated above) there is NOT a SINGLE time in my above presentation wherein I indicate that the word "all" means anything less than all human individuals since Adam at any age of years throughout any time of history in any place of the world, your comparison of my posting unto the common practice of Calvinists seems completely invalid. (If you disagree, you can certainly take the opportunity to quote the exact place of my presentation wherein I did otherwise.) Well, as I have just indicated, your expressed bias against my presentation is invalid, since it is based upon your invalid comparison of my presentation with the common practice of Calvinists, which is itself invalid because it is based upon a false understanding of my presentation. Well, although you are NOT directly saying that my presentation is wrong, you ARE saying that you will not give it an honest, contextual consideration because you are already biased against it. Indeed, "much study" should ALWAYS go into understanding any given word of Scripture within its particular grammatical and contextual location. This is the very nature of "jot and tittle" precision in Bible study for "rightly dividing" God's Word of truth. By the way, you are correct that my presentation above does attempt to demonstrate contextually that in some of the cases in Romans 5:15 & Romans 5:19, the word "many" is indeed a reference unto "the all." However, as I have already indicated, there is NOT a SINGLE occasion in my presentation above wherein I attempt to demonstrate that the word "all" "just really means 'many'," as you incorrectly claim. So then, you do NOT actually believe in precise grammatical and contextual Bible study? If you do believe in it, then "contextualizing the words in that way" is exactly what must be done for precise grammatical and contextual Bible study. Furthermore, considering what a word "truly means in the simplicity of the text" is exactly what precise grammatical and contextual Bible study does. By the way, the word "many" by its very definition is NOT a technical term, but is a general term. Therefore, the word "many" must ALWAYS be defined and applied precisely in accord with its context. First, I am in full agreement (as I have previously noted) that when the apostle employs the word "all" in the passage, he is referring unto all human individuals since Adam at any age of years throughout any time of history in any place of the world. However, you are simply wrong when you seem to indicate with your opening statement that the apostle is dealing only "with all men in the world and not only certain groups or groupings." Actually, the apostle is dealing with one category which are "the all men" and with another category which are "the many among the all." Indeed, you yourself indicate your recognition of this in your closing statements. First, you indicate that "when he says 'many,' he means 'many of those men in the world'." which means that you do recognize two groupings in this passage, that is -- the grouping of "the all" and the grouping of "the many." Second, you indicate that you "do not see any other group in the passage beside these." Now, the word "these" which you use in your statement is a plural word, thus indicating your recognition of more than one "group" in the passage. So then, how does this conflict with my presentation above? I myself also believe that there are two "groups" in the passage, and "do not see any other group in the passage beside these" two. First, I see the group of "the all," which I contend is ALWAYS referenced with the word "all" and is sometimes ALSO referenced with the word "many." Second, I see the group of "the many from among the all," which I contend is sometimes referenced with the word "many," but NEVER with the word "all." This is simply incorrect. In this passage the apostle Paul is dealing with MORE than only two contrasting comparisons. These contrasting comparisons begin in Romans 5:15, and they include at least the following: 1a. In Romans 5:15 we find "the offence" set in a comparison of contrast with "the free gift." - "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift." 1b. In Romans 5:15 we find "the offence of one " set in a comparison of contrast with "the grace of God, and the gift by grace." - "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." 2a. In Romans 5:16 we find "judgment to condemnation" set in a comparison of contrast with "the free gift unto justification." - "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification." 3. In Romans 5:17 we find "death" set in a comparison of contrast with "life" - "For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." 2b. In Romans 5:18 we again find "judgment to condemnation" set in a comparison of contrast with "the free gift unto justification of life." - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." 4. In Romans 5:19 we find "many made sinners" set in a comparison of contrast with "many made righteous." - "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." It is quite interesting to me that you seem completely to ignore the "set" of condemnation and justification in this passage, which is actually presented in two separate verses of the passage. I have to wonder WHY you ignore this apparently important "set" in the passage. Indeed, by ignoring the apparently important "set" of condemnation and justification in this passage (which is also a very significant theme in the entire first five chapters of Romans), you find it quite easy to conclude that this passage is all about "the physical world" and physical death. However, throughout the epistle of Romans the matters of condemnation and justification are NOT physical matters, but are SPIRITUAL matters. Not only does this passage teach that "death and sin" are in the world because of Adam's first disobedience, but also it teaches that "judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation" by Adam's first disobedience. Furthermore, this passage not only teaches the existence of sin in the world because of Adam's first disobedience, but also it teaches that "many were MADE SINNERS" by Adam's first disobedience. Why do you continue to ignore the PRECISE statements of Romans 5:18-19? Yet you do try to handle the truths of Romans 5:18-19, just through a distortion of them. Indeed, the passage does indicate that ALL are already under "judgment to condemnation;" but nowhere does the passage indicate that all are condemned "to get death." That is your insertion. Furthermore, the passage does NOT say that "judgment came [past tense] upon all men to condemnation" BECAUSE OF Adam himself. Rather, the passage precisely says that this occurred "BY the OFFENCE of one [ADAM]." It was not because of Adam himself. Rather, it was BY ADAM'S OFFENSE. Finally, it is utterly incorrect according to the passage to say that "our sin . . . condemns the soul." In both verses wherein the truth of "judgment unto condemnation" is mention, those being Romans 5:16 & Romans 5:18, our sin is NOT mentioned AT ALL. Rather, in both verses the cause for the "judgment unto condemnation" upon all men is "BY ONE," that is -- "BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE." According to both of these verses, we ALL are judged unto condemnation before God BY ADAM'S ONE OFFENSE, not at all by our sin; and in both of these verses that "judgment unto condemnation" "came upon ALL men" in the past tense. Again, Romans 5:19 does indeed indicate that "many were made sinners." However, again this verse does NOT say that "many were made sinners" BECAUSE OF Adam himself, or because of Adam's example. Rather, this verse precisely says that "many were made sinners" "BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE." Again, the cause by which "many were made sinners" is not by their own sin. In fact, Romans 5:19 does NOT mention AT ALL the sin of "the many." Rather, the cause by which "many were made sinners" is precisely "BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE." So then, now we might understand why you continue to ignore the PRECISE statements of Romans 5:18-19 - because those PRECISE statements defeat you position concerning the condition of spiritual innocence. The only way for you to legitimately handle this matter is to consider each individual usage of the word "many" in the passage. You have not and did not do this. Therefore, you have not done anything to counteract my previous presentation, wherein I did do this. Rather, you simply said that you do "not think contextualizing the words in that way helps in actually understanding the passage;" and thereby ignored the need to do any such consideration. Furthermore, you then made the assumption that when the apostle Paul "says 'many' he means 'many of those men in the world'," without legitimately considering any other possibility. Such is NOT Bible study. Yet since Romans 5:18 PRECISELY says that "judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation," your denial of condemnation upon some is a direct contradiction of the PRECISE statement in Scripture. Furthermore, since Romans 5:18 PRECISELY says that this "judgment to condemnation" came "BY THE OFFENCE OF ONE," your reference unto some having "never lived long enough to sin" is irrelevant to the Biblical truth, since their sin is not the cause of the "judgment to condemnation" anyway. Yet the passage does NOT say a single word about Adam's EXAMPLE, does it? Romans 5:18-19 is the exactly relevant quotation for this discussion. Now, break just those two sentences down into their precise grammatical construction without changing any words, and you will understand the truth.
  7. And how many times is the phrase "his body" used, wherein the pronoun "his" refers unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
  8. Ahhh, but that one does not have to be in the Bible precisely; for I like to do the same. Thus Matthew 18:19 would apply -- "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."
  9. So then, for my first "preface posting" on this matter, I present a posting that I had previously presented in the other thread concerning the nature of human individuals --
  10. Some months ago, in the thread concerning "The Spiritual Progression of Human Souls," I was challenged concerning my position on "human sinfulness and the accountability of babies." It was my intention to answer that challenge as I was able; however, I have been finding it difficult to engage appropriately on this matter within the other thread discussion. The focus of that thread discussion is not upon this matter, but upon another (although related) matter. Therefore, I am beginning this thread with the intention to present my case and to field any question that may arise about it - concerning the matter of "human sinfulness and the accountability of babies." As I mentioned in the other thread discussion, so I present also herein - Before I speak directly about the matter in question, I shall be presenting a few "preface postings" in order to lay a doctrinal foundation for my case. Furthermore, in the other thread I have made a few "quick remarks" concerning this matter, which I believe is appropriate to bring over into this thread, as follows:
  11. Brother Young, 1. Romans 5:19 does NOT teach that "many were made sinners" "by choice," as you say. Rather, Romans 5:19 teaches that "many were made sinners" "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience." So then, which is the source of truth - your position, or the Biblical statement? 2. The fact is that there is not a single verse in all of Scripture which joins the verb "become" (or one of its cognates) with the word "sinners," no, not even one. As such, God's Word does NOT say anything about "becoming" sinners. Rather, in Romans 5:19 God's Word speaks about "being made" sinners by the disobedience of one human individual, Adam. The fact is that God's Word DOES say that "many were made sinners" because of Adam. (By the way, I am not ignoring the passage which you presented in support of your statement, that is -- Romans 7:4-11. However, I find that this passage, which you have presented in support of your statements about individuals "becoming" sinners, does not even once employ either the word "sinner" or "sinners." So then, I wonder how it can say what you claim when it does not even use your terminology. On the other, Romans 5:19 DOES use the word "sinners," and DOES speak about how "many were made sinners." Precision in Bible study requires that we begin with the precise terminology of God's Word in its precise grammatical and contextual construction.)
  12. Well, as I make my rounds through the various thread discussions and Bible studies in which I have a part, I now return unto this thread discussion. Concerning the word “many” in Romans 5:12-19. The word “many” is employed as a designation for a group of people in two verses within Romans 5:12-19. These two verses are verse 15 and verse 19. Yet in both of these verses the word “many” is employed within both of the contrasting statements in each verse respectively. Now, basically the word “many” means “a large grouping.” In some manner, it refers to a subset of some group. However, the word “many” is not a technical term of amount, but is a general term of amount. Therefore, the subset which it represents could be differently defined according to a given context. First, the subset of the word “many” could refer unto “the many” which encompasses “the all.” In such a case, “the all” would indeed encompass “a large grouping,” thereby fulfilling the basic definition of “many.” Second, the subset of the word “many” could refer to some majority number from among the whole, which would encompass “a large grouping” in relation to the whole. Third, the subset of the word “many” could even refer to some minority number from among the whole, as long as that minority number actually does still encompass “a large grouping.” Furthermore, it is worthy of notice that within the context of Romans 5:15 and Romans 5:19, there is no specific indication that the word “many” in each case is intended as a reference unto the same exact grouping of “many” for each case. 1. Romans 5:15a – “But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead . . . .” Herein Romans 5:15 indicates that “the many” are dead through the first disobedience of Adam. Now, I would contend that in this statement the word “many” refers unto “the many” who are “the all” for the following reasons. First, earlier in the context Romans 5:12 declares that “death passed upon all men.” Second, earlier in the context Romans 5:14 indicated that “death reigned” within the human race “from Adam to Moses,” even before the Law was given at Sinai. Since death has “passed upon all men,” such that “death reigned” within the human race from the very time of Adam, it seems reasonable to conclude from the context that “the many” who are dead in Romans 5:14 are the same as “the all” upon whom “death passed” in Romans 5:12. 2. Romans 5:15b – “. . . Much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.” Herein Romans 5:15 indicates that God’s grace and the gift of that grace has “abounded unto many” by Jesus Christ. Now, in this statement the word “many” could refer contextually unto “the many” who are “the all,” or unto a grouping of many from among “the all.” If this statement refers unto the offer of God’s grace and gift, then it would be indicating that this offer has been made unto “the many” who are “the all.” This viewpoint would correspond with the closing statement of Romans 5:18 – “. . . Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” Now, from the earlier teaching in the whole epistle to the Romans, we understand that the “free gift” of eternal justification and eternal life is only experienced by those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Furthermore, we understand from the teaching of the whole New Testament, that not “all men” believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus we would understand that this reference concerning the “free gift’s” coming “upon all men unto justification of life” must be a reference unto the offer of that “free gift” for “all men,” not the experience of that “free gift” by “all men.” On the other hand, if the statement of Romans 5:15 refers unto the experience of God’s grace and gift, then it would be indicating that this experience occurs for “the many” from among “the all.” First, as I have previously noted, the earlier teaching in the whole epistle to the Romans reveals that not “all men” experience God’s grace and gift unto “justification of life,” but only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Furthermore, this viewpoint would correspond with the closing statement of Romans 5:17 – “. . . Much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” This statement refers unto those who “receive” the abundance of God’s grace and the abundance of His gift of righteousness (justification), and the way to “receive” this grace and gift of God is through faith. In addition, this statement indicates that those who receive “shall reign in life” by Jesus Christ. Such is the language of experiencing eternal life, and such an experience is only for those who believe on Christ. 3. Romans 5:19a – “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners . . . .” Herein Romans 5:19 indicates that “many” individuals “were made sinners,” not by their own choice of disobedience, but by Adam’s first choice of disobedience. Now, I would contend that in this statement the word “many” also refers unto “the many” who are “the all” for the following reasons. First, earlier in the context Romans 5:12 declared that “all have sinned” (see also Romans 3:23), so that there are no exceptions in this matter. Second, according to the use of the explanatory conjunction “for” at the beginning of Romans 5:19, this statement is provided as an explanation for that truth which was expressed in Romans 5:18. Therein the truth was expressed that by Adam’s first disobedience and offense “judgment came upon all men to condemnation.” Now, in the justice of God, judgment unto condemnation does not come upon individuals unless there is sinfulness and guiltiness for which to judge and condemn. So then, if “all men” are judged unto condemnation, there must be some reason of sinfulness and guiltiness by which to cause this. Even so, the opening portion of Romans 5:19 reveals that cause – in that “many were made sinners” by Adam’s first disobedience. Since the judgment unto condemnation came upon “all men,” it seems reasonable to conclude from the context that “the many” who “were made sinners” in Romans 5:19 are the same as “the all” upon whom judgment unto condemnation for sinfulness has come. 4. Romans 5:19b – “. . . So by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” Herein Romans 5:19 indicates that “many” individuals shall “be made righteous” by the obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ, even unto the death of the cross. Now, I would contend that in this statement the word “many” refers unto a grouping of “many” from among “the all.” The grammatical phrase, “shall be made righteous,” is a phrase of experience. As such, this statement indicates that “the many” shall experience the righteousness of Christ unto them in their justification and upon them in their regeneration. Since we understand from the earlier teaching of the whole epistle to the Romans that this is only experienced through faith in Christ, and since we understand from the teaching of the whole New Testament that not “all men” believe on Christ, it seems reasonable to conclude that the experience of this statement is limited only unto “the many” who actually believe on Christ.
  13. Brother "Swathdiver," Could you provide us with some Biblical evidence that the "bride-body of Christ" is made up of local churches, not of Christian individuals?
  14. I do not know if anyone is still with me in this Bible study; however, I myself intend to continue until the study is complete. Therefore . . . . 2 John 1:1-3 – The Salutation As we begin, we find that 2 John is written in the common pattern of that day, including the salutation (2 John 1:1-3), the message (2 John 1:4-11), and the conclusion (2 John 1:12-13). Then as we narrow our focus further, we find that the opening salutation is also written in the common pattern of that time, including the author, the recipients, and the greeting. Yet we also find that the apostle John provided a more expanded presentation concerning the recipients. In this expanded presentation, the apostle John presented the subjects of “love” and “truth” as two important themes upon which to set our focus. In fact, he presented these two subjects as having an integral relationship with each other. So then, with this in mind I would present the next set of Bible study questions: 1. What are the various points of relationship between "love" and "truth" that is presented in this salutation? 2. What edificational and exhorational thoughts would you present concerning these various points of relationship? Furthermore, as we consider the opening line of 2 John, we are also brought to a number of interpretational questions: 1. What does it mean to "love in the truth"? 2. In this context, what does it mean to describe individuals as those who have "known the truth"? Is this a reference only unto believers in the gospel, or is this a reference unto something more? 3. In what way does "love" occur "for the truth's sake"? 4. In what manner does the "truth" dwell "in us" and abide "with us for ever"? 5. Does the prepositional phrase, "in truth and love," at the end of verse 3 modify the phrase, "Grace be with you, mercy, and peace;" or does it modify the phrase, "the Son of the Father"? Are we to understand this as -- "Grace be with you, mercy, and peace in truth and love"? Or are we to understand this as -- "the Son of the Father in truth and love"? 6. If it is to be understood as -- "Grace be with you, mercy, and peace in truth and love," then what does it mean for grace, mercy, and peace to be administered unto us from God the Father and God the Son "in truth and love"? Does this refer to the manner in which they administer grace, mercy, and peace? Or does this refer to the realm in which they administer grace, mercy, and peace? 7. If it is to be understood as -- "the Son of the Father in truth and love," then what does it mean that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Father "in truth and love"?
  15. Luke 12:51-53 – “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: for from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.” 1. The Corrective – The Person, work, and gospel of Christ will NOT bring peace on the earth. “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay” 2. The Warning – The Person, work, and gospel of Christ will bring division on the earth. “I tell you, Nay; but rather division.” 3. The Reality – The Person, work, and gospel of Christ will bring division even into households. “For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.”