wretched

*Independent Fundamental Baptist
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    But to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

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    But to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
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  1. Looking forward to HS' reply but while waiting, a thought came to mind, I pray it edifies: All newborn babes grave mother's milk immediately after birth and are insatiable in appetite as they initially grow; so should a newborn Christian be with the Word of God. Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, (more references back to Christ's teachings in the Gospels as in all the Epistles). As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: God makes this analogy for a clear reason in righteous judgment for us. If our "converts" don't grave the Word of God right away after trusting Christ, go back to the drawing board and keep praying and explaining the Gospel to them. We should not be tempted to push assurance of salvation on them. Just as we must not be tempted to sell them an empty prayer. That is how tares are made IMHO.
  2. I will definitely be praying for you sir
  3. I am sorry boss; Somehow, I think it would make it harsher that way, but I will stop it now.
  4. Argument solved, thanks Brother A wretched he BTW
  5. The distinction and critical error your preachers have made with this is applying it to the gospels. What distinctions your pro and con list make are unrelated to the Christ's Gospel period And Matthew is hardly the Gospel to the Jews only. That is ruckmanite doctrine and not Bible. Christ's Gospel is repeated in all 4 Gospels whether Kingdom of Heaven or God. He gives the same commands. Whatever makes your flesh feel good in your religion is the name of your game obviously and your ears are stopped My intent is you warn you only. What you do with it is your business.
  6. This idea about the Kingdom of Heaven referring only to Jews 2000 years into the future is in-explainable, hyper-dispensational cost counting. It is commentary false doctrine and not Scriptural. I realize you did not come up with it but are teaching it just the same. The Kingdom of Heaven and God are used interchangeably across all 4 Gospels. One parable in Matthew says Heaven the same parable in Luke says God. That alone is enough to dismiss this fantasy. But the fact that our Lord preached this firstly to all His present day disciples to be preached by them and so on until the end of the world marks this teaching as false completely. The Words of Christ are the results of saving faith but mean little to anyone who counts the costs of Scriptural salvation. Please study Luke 14:26-35 The only Gospel is what Christ preached. A false gospel is one that substitutes repentance with a quick prayer followed by constant assurance of salvation because they said the words, then lists of do and don't for christians after being talked into a prayer, then fed a list of what you can keep of the world in your life a what you cannot keep of the world in your life. That gospel (so prevalent in even IFB churches) is not the real Gospel. Any gospel other than Christ's Gospel is a false Gospel. And there exists only one Gospel message in Scripture. In these last days, other gospels have transformed the true Gospel preached by our Lord and commanded by Him to be preached to all future believers into a false religion of mental ascent and new religious law. These rules never come close to a crucified life in which a believer actually leaves their care for this world behind and follows Him in every aspect of life. This false Gospel not only condones worldly ambition, it encourages gain as Godliness; it encourages natural instincts like self defense, carrying firearms and participation in worldly temporal pass-times, hobbies and sports. None of which have anything whatsoever to do with following Christ or eternal reward. The desire to move on unto perfection is the fruit of saving faith and the Spirit. It takes growth and learning but the message should always be in the heart of the true believer and they strive the rest of their lives to this perfection. Please prayerfully consider what hell for eternity truly is and if you do you may understand better what Christ's saves us from. Christ's words will make much more sense to you. It should also prove that nothing temporal in this world should be any concern to us At worst these false teachers are tares/goats and will hear "I never knew you" which is certainly in the context of our Lord's sermon. At best these false teachers will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. They want fire insurance of course but they count the costs and it is very clear anyone who doesn't desire and strive to surrender all is counting the costs. Doesn't mean we will succeed, even the most sanctified will fail more than succeed, but we will constantly and prayerfully strive to be like HIM. And most importantly, we won't teach others not to be. This is the saddest statement of all my friend. Do you realize you are calling our Lord a coward? He preached this the loudest and strongest of all. And lived it and then commanded we live it and preach it. The mark of a true coward is one who worries over what others think of them in this life and not what the Lord thinks of them. They are scared to be crucified with Christ. They are scared to be truly different from the world (it is ok with the world to be religious but never ok to be a Disciple of Christ). They are scared to be despised and ridiculed of men for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. They worry over the world, their self worth, their toys and trinkets, their worldly image to others and reputation, their money and pleasing their wives and children with worldly things, pressing their children to worldly goals and ambitions. Sure they follow the rules given to them after constant reassurance of salvation to attend 3 times a week, read a couple of chapters a day, pray for a few minutes before work and tithe. They love their new cozy religion once they get the rules down pat and are now used to living that way. That is the exact opposite of what Christ preached. In reality it is the condemnation Christ preached against the pharisees. It is little more than a self satisfying, part time religion. Of course, self defense was only a small part of Christ's preaching and only the tip of the iceberg. The true believer should want to grow and should want to see that they have no self satisfying future in this life which is but a vapor and our only testing ground for God to see if you truly believe and are not simply a "hearer of the Word" only. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. Oh but they are still in church following religious rules fed to them by wolves. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. It is my prayer that all will see the difference between the true Gospel and that typical easy prayerism gospel so prevalent today everywhere including IFB churches. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
  7. Doesn't surprise me a bit.
  8. I am afraid it is blatantly contradictory to believe that Jesus even excuses, much less condones or encourages or commands violence to any other human being down here for any reason. Quoting OT and 2nd Coming passages have nothing whatsoever to do with you or me living down here, in or out of their context. There are hundreds of completely ignored passages contained in the Gospels that describes what salvation results in for a true believer, I will only quote a small portion from only the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew with the prayer others may understand: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Those that are not - won't be there (there is NEVER a middle ground with God) Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Those that are not - won't Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Those that are not - won't Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Those that are not - won't be called that Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Those that are not or simply refuse to allow any persecution won't see the Kingdom of Heaven Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. When one is born again, they are to want to lose their life in this world and be crucified with Christ. IE. your worldly reputation, your standing in society, your ambitious prosperity, even your family. You are a Christian 24/7 and in all circumstances. So there is not and will not be any time in your remaining physical life where it is OK to not follow these commands. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Here is the revealing part you need to study before it is too late. It is all in the context of the Sermon on the Mount. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? The Lord clearly states to turn the other cheek. So if your pastor or commentary says you can defend yourself and carry arms; does that match in any way what our Lord says? Of course not and below is what the Lord says about these men (ravening wolves): Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. The good fruit is the context of this passage which is the Sermon on the Mount. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I know most everyone on this site has always been taught that this refers to some chaff like catholics. But that is not the context. The context is referring to many, many IFB pastors I have known over the years. I recommend caution when declaring your rights to defend yourself, your family and your home. You are supposed to be the salt of the earth. The example of what a Spiritually awakened person is to the world. A product of the Gospel (the real Gospel) not the Lord Lord one. You and I were saved to become the exact opposite of what everyone else is in the world. To swallow our pride and self worth and machismo, pick up the Cross and be crucified with Him. Noone needs to be taught or encouraged to defend themselves or their homes and families, the natural man knows exactly how to do that and does it by fleshly instinct. Jesus teaches clearly that His people are to turn their backs on their fleshly instincts and be like Him. Remember the Words of our Lord and do your best to forget the preacher and commentary doctrines you have been raised on. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. The Spirit of Christ is painstakingly revealed to all of us in the Gospels. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke insertion here of the same sermon from our Lord) We need to all ask ourselves daily whether our new life and the church we attend are built on the ROCK or on sand. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: I know many won't like any of this but many need to hear it, me included - every day.
  9. Interesting. James and Paul both simply echo and rephrase the teaching of our Lord in all the Gospels. The only saving faith is that which produces works for God. No works (no interest in baptism or the milk of the Word, or growth, or sanctification, etc.), no saving faith....period. What new born baby fresh out of their mother's womb does not want milk immediately? Multiple millions claim faith in our Lord but very few demonstrate faith to our Lord. The Gospels and Epistles all proclaim this truth that is so often ignored. In every instance of the faith hall of fame of Hebrews 11 the saving faith was demonstrated to God by works. How many times did Jesus tell people though-out the Gospels not to "tell Me" but to "show Me". The early churches fell quickly into the apostasy of "dead faith" or what we call easy believe-ism/easy prayerism and this is what God used James to correct. Sadly apostates even within IFB circles continue to spread this unrepentant "gospel". It amazes me that many times the lost (who don't want to hear it) seem to know naturally what supposed "Christians" don't know about the true Gospel. It will change their hearts, minds, attitudes and their lives in every aspect. Enter satan who taught IFB "soulwinners" to dance around that to simply get a quick prayer out of people so they can report baloney numbers to each other or to falsely console themselves over lost loved ones. The world calls being born again things like: Finding religion or finding Jesus or becoming a Jesus freak or a Bible Thumper or a holy roller. They know it changes the person's life, the devils know it changes a person's life, God most assuredly knows it changes people's lives. Seems everyone knows it except modern professing "Christians". Mental acknowledgement of the Gospel produces no works for sure. Saving faith in the Gospel produces works without exception.
  10. Got it, I understand what you mean. I see that this time around I was countering with oranges while you were speaking of apples. There is a wide gulf of difference in this matter between mental assent and heart belief. As wide a gulf as hell is to Heaven respectively. Thank you for clarifying.
  11. This is your opening sentence This is your return to it. If the Spirit reproves of sin, righteous and judgment, it will produce a new found need to be spared His wrath in Hell. That "need" manifests itself by the desire to escape Hell and go to Heaven. How could you believe this is works based? If that is not what you meant, could you please explain and clarify?
  12. Your summary at the bottom states: To return to my opening sentence, I believe that if we try to come to Christ for those two reasons, we are coming for what we can get out of it, and that is a works based salvation, We should come to Christ because we realise we are vile sinners who have sinned against a just and holy God who sent his only begotten son to take our place and nailed our sins to his tree, and rose from the dead so that we may rise with him at the resurrection. However, your Scriptural passages do not support this summary unless you are conceding that Peter's sermon at Pentecost could not stand alone without previous seeds sown providing more background (which BTW: Peter's sermon already states that the audience had previous knowledge). In addition you leave out any mention of condemnation for the lost which logically indicates that you do not believe that knowledge is required in order for the lost to believe the Gospel. I forgot to ask another question which I just bolded in your quote. So are you claiming that if one becomes convicted of sin, righteous and judgment, their faith in the Gospel then somehow becomes works-based?
  13. The passage of Pentecost you quote makes no mention in any way of your conclusion at the bottom "We should come to Christ because we realise we are vile sinners who have sinned against a just and holy God who sent his only begotten son to take our place and nailed our sins to his tree, and rose from the dead so that we may rise with him at the resurrection." yet you attempt to use it as a proof text against condemnation. In addition you say: When Peter preached at Pentecost, he said, "You killed the author of life" The Jews knew who God was and most recognised who Jesus was. How could they unless they had already had seeds sown from our Lord's own Sermons in the Gospels. Those same Jews Peter was preaching to at Pentecost also knew of the Lord's Sermons which mentioned condemnation and hell constantly. See verse 22 from your post: "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" If they knew beforehand (IE seeds sown) that they were vile sinners then they had also heard and understood that this vile sinner status carried condemnation along with it. Peter's sermon mentions none of this "vile sinners or condemnation" but it certainly infers both to an audience Peter was 100% sure had heard the sin and condemnation sermons of our Lord. Your entire post here is moot from the standpoint of attempting to remove hell and condemnation from the Great Commission. Most born again believers use the term preaching the Gospel (just like the Apostles) with the understanding that they mean the Great Commission and not just the one passage from I Cor 15:1-4. There has to be other seeds sown just as there were obviously with this crowd at Pentecost. They had the background and they were convicted of their sin and their coming judgment: IE, they were afraid...period.
  14. No problem
  15. I am sorry but had no time to respond to your post earlier. I only presume to judge what people say against Scripture. And that is exactly how I worded the response in question to GP. Your Scriptural quote has no background or explanation of why the Gospel is needed. This is my argument against the falsehood presented. The Gospels on the other hand contain why God sent His Son to save the world and are written to the lost. Hence, the reason they are called the Gospels. People need far more Scripture then this one verse if that is how you present the Gospel to people without background or reasoning. Your Roman's quote standing alone or contextually does not present the need for God's goodness and until a lost person understands this need, they are clueless to what the Goodness of God means and are certainly not under the Spirit's conviction. It is now but it wasn't prior to salvation. God sent the Spirit to convict the world of their sin and coming judgement. Our Lord's first coming was to save but His second will not be. In the meantime, the Spirit and the written Word's job is to convince the lost of their condemnation. Once again, no one can be saved apart from conviction from the Holy Spirit By the Word of sin, righteous and judgement to come. Any other "conversion" is simply a religious one and not of God. Confusing Epistles written to the born again and not to the lost will keep you dangerously confused. No lost person can ever understand the Gospel (goodness of God) without understanding their condemnation FIRST. Once again, there is no good news without knowledge FIRST of the bad news. Put your cart behind the horse I judge noone's heart but I do judge what you say and what you say is dangerously wrong. BTW, this is not some semantic argument. What you espouse is a false "gospel". God is all love and no wraith is the devils nonsense and only when one gets the wraith before the goodness of God, will they know why they must believe the Gospel. I would think this is common sense among those born again. Is this long forgotten or was it never even known by you?