*Independent Fundamental Baptist
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  1. It is quite clear that all will face one judgment but it is also quite clear that each type of person is judged under different criteria and verdict and each judgment is named by God accordingly. Still one judgment per person but two types of judgments. Whether this judgment occurs consecutively or all together is irrelevant. The point however is that all will be judged by Christ (the vast majority for condemnation according to their works) and the comparative handful for reward according to their works. Based on the context and mention of tears after the Great White Throne, I would lean toward consecutive with the saved being judged first. That is when the crying starts and the tears will continue to flow until after the lost are done and in the lake of fire and our Lord Graciously wipes away our tears forever. The reason the tears continue to flow through the lost's judgment is because of our deliberate failure to warn everyone we ever knew in our life down here. We will remember that we didn't have the nerve; didn't take the time (after all, it is baseball and football season), didn't pray and fast for them; didn't want to be persecuted for the name of Christ, etc... I suspect it will be emotionally devastating for nearly all of the saved as we watch them cast one by one into the lake of fire. Oh and I suspect they will see us there too. No problem though, we can always "mouth" SORRY to them as they are cast down. After all, the rich man saw Lazarus and Abraham in paradise while he burned in hell. It could take millions of what we once called years at this event but there won't be time anymore so I doubt it will be a tight shed-u-al. But you go on thinking in your flesh that God hand picks the saved and it has nothing to do with you.
  2. Oh, I understand it and lived it far better than you realize Jim. I was a deacon in a large IFB church at the age of 24. And ordained by an IFB church in 1988 (a novice in both cases). These were not small IFB churches either. At the times, I wanted them both very much and was convinced of this calling. This feeling of desire to be a pastor can make a young man convince himself (usually with Pastor's and others help) that it came from God. Well that same man wants the third slice of pie just as strongly but we don't attribute that to God. What you are describing is not a Biblical calling from God. I also understand the grievous error men make in applying the world's qualification system to pastors/teachers; The younger, the better; Bible colleges that issue degrees just like the world, etc. The pride of young men who desire the offices and ignorant men's concurrence and encouragement of these un-Scriptural "callings". Then later on, I have seen it over and over; the total lack of faith demonstrated by supposed "men of God" who won't move an inch without a guaranteed salary and benefit's plan; who strive for, then relish worldly titles like Doctor. Who claim they are being called from Minnesota to Florida, etc... This is the generation and a half of "pastors" we have created out of our Bible ignorance. Don't ever blame God for it friend. Certainly not all are included in this but the number of these types is well over half and grows daily. We are Laodicea. There are no disciples in Laodicea but plenty of Pastors and other "full time" workers of one type or another. Of course your story is interesting Jim but not Scriptural if what you mean by called to preach is actually Pastoring? If preaching the Gospel then yes we are all commanded to preach the Gospel full time so I understand your story, but it is called chastisement of which every real believer will go through when they don't "do" what they "hear"? Want to be miserable? Know to do right and do it not as a real born again believer....you will understand miserable for the first time in your life. If not, then God calls them bastards. There are no direct callings from God anymore Jim. We have the complete Word and the Spirit to guide us in it. Sermon and commentary doctrine call it a direct calling. NT doctrine does not. Pastors are not Prophets nor are they Apostles. They are clearly called by themselves and adjudicated by other men in the NT.
  3. Jim, There is nothing specific about pastors in these passages however. There is no direct calling from God (however manifested) to be a Bishop in God's Word, it is a personal, not-God given but free-will, desire. And that is the leaning of the OP IMO. These passages address salvation and are commands primarily and have little to do with the OP and they have little if anything to do with what you mention. I have heard these ideas hundreds of times but they are not in the NT. The first passage has been acknowledged already as the last true calling from God. In addition all that mention Paul are included in that acknowledgment. Having the talent, desire and ambition to be a pastor is not the same as a direct call from God. The call God wrote for all true Christians is to be a disciple before anything. Jesus spoke much of it in the Gospels. The first church in Acts knew all about it Hard to find a pastor these days that even knows what that means.
  4. IMSO, all callings, visions, dreams, gifts of the Spirit, etc.. ended at the completion of God's Word. All childishness done away with now that the Spirit was poured out and the written Word complete. The Epistles seem quite clear that no man is "called" extra Biblically into anything. No prophets or Apostles needed qualifications as bishops and deacons do. And if a man desires the office of bishop, he desires a good work. Key word is his own desire and not God's direct calling. Only God chose Prophets and Apostles but according to the NT, men now choose pastors and deacons. If God still called men as He previously did, those passages would not be included in the Epistles. As a matter of fact Paul and Barnabas were the last two men "called" directly of God to do anything. Any and all callings are written out for us now in the Word. All are called to be disciples and in order to be a disciple you must lose your life, care and ambitions of this world. Leave all and follow Him. Not 10% and 3 times a week but ALL OF IT. Since 1985, 17 states, 4 countries and 22 different IFB churches I have only met 2 men (one was a pastor, the other a deacon) who actually were following Christ. They had no interest in the world, or sports or golf or fishing, etc. (and yes, they previously did before they really got into the Word). All their free time was devoted to worship and witness from that point on.
  5. Two thumbs up
  6. I really do hate to say it GP but I am out of ideas about why you cannot grasp this and have no concept of context. Look at verse 12 again and read its context. Only if a person endures temptation will they receive a crown of life at their trial. It has nothing to do with getting saved. The context is living holy for God after salvation. Now if you are claiming one must endure temptation in order to be saved, you are dipping into a new vat of heresy. 12, Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried (as in a trial; as in judged), he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
  7. There in lies the disagreement Bro Scott. You read these passages with the belief that the Lord is referring to them all as already receiving Him as Savior, individually at some point in their past. I see nothing in these texts or any other that indicate that in regards to children. I read these passages with the belief that the Lord is discussing them from the standpoint that they already have this faith and knowledge built in at birth therefore making them not condemned until a point in age and seduction by the world that this pure childlike faith in God "changes" in their hearts. At that point, they can truly repent and be converted or die in their sins. Difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt either way, I suppose. My premise is that a given or borrowed opinion is never your own therefore no repentance is necessary. It boils down to repentance being a change of heart but the Lord refers to these children as already possessing a heart for the true God so what could they repent from? The Lord does state that the child's faith is the standard by which saving faith for adults is judged IMO. This is the purest form and without possessing that purest form of undoubted faith in the Lord, an accountable person cannot be saved. I include the mentally deficient with children in that most unfortunates like this have the minds of children at various degrees. It is a tough one, no doubt but I will prayerfully read your study as NN stated also.
  8. Excellent points made by NN. But one caught my eye quickly in regards to how a child or even a mentally retarded person could repent. I hear folks time and again claiming a child can "understand" the gospel. Basic understanding that Jesus loves them and is God is evident in children when prompted by an adult. I have never heard a single child ever say "OH NO HE ISN'T" But knowing inherently by faith that Jesus is God as a little child is not repentance. and is not enough for conversion. it is akin to mental assent of the Gospel by adults IMO. Understanding their coming judgment in hell if they do not turn from their previous ideas about God or the meaning of life or why they are here is a wholly different story. What idea about God would a child have apart from whatever their parents idea is? All a child's opinions are adopted from the parents or adult influences until puberty (or the jewish age of accountability) hint, hint. Which also happened to be about the age our Lord became Spiritually self-aware. I have never met any child prior to puberty that understood repentance. Especially those talked into "inviting Jesus in the hearts" prior to puberty, they get it the least by enlarge IMO. In addition there are plenty of examples of men and women (younger and older) receiving Christ in the NT. However, there is not one single example of child of any age receiving Christ in the NT and obviously children were around the Lord at times: Mark 10:13, And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14, But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. 16, And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. That is it! no- go and sin no more; no- your sins be forgiven thee, no- thy faith have saved thee. You know, the things our Lord would tell every adult that came to Him and believed. Jesus simply hugged the children and blessed them. I highlighted in red why. Heaven will be full of children IMO. Will they rule and reign and receive all the promises that the saved will - Most likely not but they will not be in hell. Nor are there any examples of the mentally incompetent receiving Christ either. These omissions are for a reason IMO. If a person is of a sound mind after puberty, they are without excuse (Rom 1:20), anything before that or the mentally disabled are "with" excuse IMO. Sure, sure God can do anything He wants and it would be right. BUT, does He teach that in His Word? Does He teach us merciless cruelty to the mentally weak and helpless?
  9. GP, seems to me (and I am not looking hard) that you generally tend to bring oranges to almost every apple discussion. Whether a person trusts the Lord as Savior or not during their life on earth in no way negates judgment. All will be judged from the least to the greatest, saved or lost. It is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; 12, Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried (as in a trial; as in judged), he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. I could care less about being right or getting agreement, I am simply trying to help you GP. Stop wasting what little time you have left on earth, drop the reformed, lackadaisical attitude the flesh loves to cling to and get busy for God.
  10. GP, it has been well established on here that you neither follow the Scriptures nor understand them. The plain writing of english in God's Word says exactly what I posted but you cannot understand it.
  11. It is also a logical conclusion to believe that there will be levels of condemnation for the lost at the Great White Throne Judgment, just as there will be levels of reward for His saints at the Judgement Seat. Else why would God judge all the lost according to their works. If condemnation were equal then the Judgment would not be according to their works, it would be solely based on their rejection of Him and His salvation. The word judgment in itself indicates levels of either reward or punishment and both the lost and the saved will be judged; every man (male or female)
  12. Ah yes, context, context, context Invicta. If you reformation folks could just pay attention to that; you would see things much differently. The context in blue you mention is exactly the same thing as one judgment for all lost and one judgment for all saved. It remains one judgment regardless. Also if you folks would in take Revelation seriously you would see the vast difference in the descriptive of each judgment.
  13. Absolutely Context Invicta. That is another word for rightly dividing.
  14. All born again believers
  15. No problem Jim, Let's see, to summarize: From God's perspective: The Bride or Body or Church is every regenerated believer. In addition He created the local NT church for our perspective. From our perspective: There is only the local NT church Or something like that.