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Heir of Salvation

Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Everything posted by Heir of Salvation

  1. Early church eternal security

    I enjoyed sharpening iron with you... God bless you brother :)
  2. Early church eternal security

    I don't think your assessment is very far off... I said before that I am "skeptical" about OSAS, not that I'm dyed-in-the-wool against it. I'm being treated by some as though I am....but that's another matter. John provides us the answer though, I think in vs. 22 and I think my initial assessment is correct: He identifies those "anti-Christs" those who (were not of us)...in vs. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. I am not yet convinced that those who can walk away are those who were never truly believers.... That argument is dangerously close to a "No true Scotsman" fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman I don't think all OSAS believers who use that verse are guilty of it, because they believe in an a-priori impossibility of falling away (such as yourself I would guess). But, I think the context is, frankly....the entire book, not just a few preceding verses...and those spoken of who are "anti-Christ"...who never were "of us"...are, and always were, genuine non-believers....wolves in sheep's clothing...not those who may have genuinely believed and have abandoned the faith. The non-OSAS position (the only reasonable one) provides that a person who may have GENUINELY believed at some point can walk away....I think John is indeed speaking of those who CLEARLY never did... And he's warning us against wolves who never believed... Frankly, I believe he's warning against Docetism which already infected the faith by then. See I John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: I think that's a better way to understand the passage. Thank you for your insight :)
  3. Early church eternal security

    Maybe... But preface it with vs. 17 only two verses earlier................. and it could take on a whole new meaning: 1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. That could help to preface vs. 19............since it provides context. It creates a condition....for who Christ's sheep are... and mind you John is warning us about heretics who deny Christ...they, I would argue are those who are spoken of. Genuine "anti-Christs" who deny Christ has come in the flesh.
  4. Early church eternal security

    You seriously just accused me of "double-talk"???? Really? Because I presented fair arguments....and even conceded numerous points in favour of the OSAS position? Points I didn't HAVE to concede. Such as explaining that while it's indeed true (and it is) that the ancient Fathers don't seem to support an OSAS position....that that should not be of significant concern to Roselove and that the Scriptures themselves should be consulted........ Let's see.... Please see if you can explain in any real detail and without sounding preposterous how I engaged in "double-talk"... You are acting like precisely what Roselove is complaining about........ Someone genuinely asking questions...and seeking to hear contrary arguments held up with Scripture... And you just condemn and insult and falsely accuse and scream "heresy". I may be mistaken. OSAS may be true... But I've not engaged in "double-talk". I presented my argument as fairly and reasonably as possible with my KJV verses quoted: You responded as you did because..... Your arguments simply aren't as good as mine......so you defaulted to insult and false accusation. And you know it. By the way "double-speak"....is preferable to "double-talk"...if that's what you want to accuse me of...just sayin'
  5. Early church eternal security

    No one can "pluck" them from the father's hand.... But, who would describe an errant sheep who willingly "leaves" the fold and walks away as having been "plucked"???? You "pluck" an apple off of a tree. If it's over-ripe, and falls to the ground (of it's own accord). You do not describe it as having been "plucked". No one can "pluck" Christ's sheep from the fold........... That says nothing about whether a sheep can walk away. And that action cannot reasonably be described as "having been 'plucked' ". I don't think that verse proves your point....especially in context: Consider the preceding verse: Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: That is a CONDITION for being a sheep....his sheep "follow" him. (Or that is at least a faithful and fair way to understand the passage). Conceivably, those who do NOT continue to follow him...are no longer classified as "sheep". Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. If OSAS is true (and it may very well be) this passage doesn't, I think, prove the point.
  6. Early church eternal security

    It can be both "everlasting" but also conditional. It can be "eternal" but receipt of it can be conditional. No one "opposes" "eternal" life.... They oppose non-conditionality. Even you don't believe eternal life is granted unconditionally. You believe that faith in Christ is necessary for receiving that gift to begin with. The difference is that you view it as a Once-only proposition. Those who disagree would contend that those who do not continue in the faith will not receive life eternal.... "Eternality" is not even the issue........it's conditionality that is at issue. The point of the opposing argument is that "eternal" life is granted upon certain conditions. This "simple point" must be answered by those who oppose "eternal" eternal life. They don't oppose "Eternal" life... they oppose a one-time-walk forward during the fifteenth verse of "Just as I am"- then live like the Devil-and believe whatever you want-and discontinue in belief at all-and still be a recipient of Eternal Life- even if you fall away from belief and begin practicing Buddhism.........................kind of Conditionality................. Every verse in the Bible assures BELIEVERS of Eternal Life....No verse assures the "I once believed but have abandoned the Faith". That's the question....Whether those who genuinely once believed can fall away into disbelief: Luke8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
  7. Early church eternal security

    I get it. I know what the eternal means, what was confusing to me, though, was for instance, like in John 3:16, they were saying that in the Greek for believeth, was implying a continuance of beleiving, which they were trying to say meant that if you stopped believing, you would not inherit wternal life, after death. That's a legitimate understanding of that verse. I'm much more open-minded to osas, now. I have been given information that makes sense to me. I was just needing some mentoring, on this matter. That's why i find it quite saddening, that people were accusing me of not believing the Bible, Welcome to O.B.... Not toeing the company line will often automatically get you branded a Christ-hater, sinner, non-believer, and heretic in the minds of some. Don't let that discourage you... Continue in the Word, listen to the arguments presented, and most importantly read the Scripture with prayer. i felt like they were saying I was trying to be a heretic or something. That's because some posters were sayinig that. Welcome to Christianity where no one is perfect and some are odious, contentious, proud and unrelentingly intransigent. I was just trying to get help. There are knowledgeable and good posters here who can help you and present reasoned arguments...... Scott Markle is definitely one of them. He's wise, and knowledgeable. He'll land on the OSAS side of the argument. Good. I'm not sure I'd agree with him..............................but, he's definitely worth hearing and considering. He can patiently and lovingly expound what he knows of Scripture and present an argument well thought-out and reasoned. Some are just going to call you a "heretic" because you don't agree on every minor point of Doctrine, or even preference. Welcome to the Family. Ignore those who are unhelpful and learn from those who are. Like this Quote
  8. Early church eternal security

    It is true that there appears to be no KNOWN affirmation of a doctrine of "Eternal Security" in the early Church writings. (Here I would restrict it to the Ante-Nicene pre-4th Century). But, there are doubtless countless writings we no longer have access to. To this I would say several things: The early Church had much larger fish to fry quite frankly. It was busy fleshing out doctrines such as the Deity of Jesus Christ, the Humanity of Jesus Christ, the Divinity of the Holy Spirit, the personhood of the Spirit, the Nature of the Trinity, the incarnation etc... I would argue that genuine saved believers had some pretty strange ideas we would consider all but heretical in this day and age. And we can expect too much from them sometimes. We are the beneficiaries of 2,000 years of Christian thought. They were often the beneficiaries of a few books of the New Testament perhaps a gospel or two and some letters of Paul. It was not really until Chalcedon (if I remember correctly) that everyone even agreed upon the Scriptural Cannon. The early Church Fathers had no such benefits........and they were dealing with much "bigger" issues. That being said, when they do make round-about mention of it.....they indeed do not seem to support any such thing as "Once-saved always saved" or "Eternal Security" etc.... This is not surprising really. Such an idea would be foreign to the world they inhabited at the time. Christianity would be the only faith that had such a doctrine (and still is). It's very counter-intuitive. And yes, there are numerous Scriptures which demand a "faithfulness to the end" to ensure salvation. But, the specific historical and social context of such writings is informative....They were under persecution in a way that we are not. They were likely referring to holding fast and not denying their faith in the face of persecution as much as saying "don't lose your Salvation". To be clear, I am Skeptical about Eternal Security myself. And I do think that Early Church writing is of value on any Doctrinal topic......Yes, I do care what they said and what they taught. But, I would be cautious about allowing what we have on that specific issue to inform your decision making much. I use an informal sort of sliding scale of how much weight I place on the Church Fathers on different topics. I am likely to have more faith in their take on say.....the Incarnation or the Trinity than I would on their precise Soteriology. Here.....it really is best to search the Scriptures with diligence and much prayer for your answers.