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Why was Jesus baptized?


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#21 Dr. Roberson

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 03:18 PM


There was no church during the days of Jesus; it did not come until after his death, buriel and resurrection. Acts 2


The question of when the church was started was not the question I answered or even the question that was asked. Try to follow along.

Dr. Roberson


Actually, Jerry was speaking of all the members of Jesus' early church. You in context of that question discussed Andrew being baptized. As proof you discussed his being a disciple of John. At that time, Jesus' church did not exist.

I am following along quiet well, thank you.


Your right. Jerry did speak of Jesus and his desiples as if they were an early church. Good looking out brother.
I however answered the question by Invicta (post # 8). I could only answer that Andrew was the only disiple of John the Baptist who is also mentioned as a disiple of Jesus. I did not try to answer if there was a church in the time of Jesus, that would be my fault.

Again, I did not answer as to when the early church was started, not did I try to, but to only answer that Andrew was baptized by John the Baptist. I hope this clears us up and no bad feelings between us.


Dr. Roberson

#22 TheSword

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:11 PM

Have you noticed, all members Jesus' early church had one thing in common, they had all been baptize. Yes, those who Jesus called to follow Him, had been baptized.

 

I think it is, perhaps, important to note that Jesus did not baptize anyone (John 4:1-2).  He made His disciples who were then baptized by existing disciples. Since Jesus did not baptize anyone then the first disciples (James, John, Peter, Andrew) either baptized each other or were not baptized as a follower of Jesus at all.  One could make a case, as did Dr. Roberson, that they were baptized by John the Baptist, but since it is a symbolic and identifying act this baptism would not have been of any consequence for identification as a follower of Jesus (see Acts 19:1-5).



#23 JerryNumbers

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:47 PM

I think it is, perhaps, important to note that Jesus did not baptize anyone (John 4:1-2).  He made His disciples who were then baptized by existing disciples. Since Jesus did not baptize anyone then the first disciples (James, John, Peter, Andrew) either baptized each other or were not baptized as a follower of Jesus at all.  One could make a case, as did Dr. Roberson, that they were baptized by John the Baptist, but since it is a symbolic and identifying act this baptism would not have been of any consequence for identification as a follower of Jesus (see Acts 19:1-5).

 

John the Baptist baptized Jesus, John was ordained by God to do this. And yes, Jesus did not baptize, but He ordained His apostles to, & he gave the authority to His churches to baptize.

 

 

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 
Plus, take notice, His apostles were baptized, & were part of the Church at Jerusalem that was founded by Him.
 
The local New Testament Church is the authority. And a local New Testament Church is made up of baptized believers. Being baptized in not and after thought, it does not save you, yet its the 1st step in obedience a newly saved person can take.
 
I'm not sure who the Dr. Roberson your speaking of is, but what you say he has taught, is 100% correct.
 
 
 


#24 TheSword

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:27 AM

John the Baptist baptized Jesus, John was ordained by God to do this. And yes, Jesus did not baptize, but He ordained His apostles to, & he gave the authority to His churches to baptize.

 

 

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 
Plus, take notice, His apostles were baptized, & were part of the Church at Jerusalem that was founded by Him.
 
The local New Testament Church is the authority. And a local New Testament Church is made up of baptized believers. Being baptized in not and after thought, it does not save you, yet its the 1st step in obedience a newly saved person can take.
 
I'm not sure who the Dr. Roberson your speaking of is, but what you say he has taught, is 100% correct.
 
 
 

 

I don't at all dispute any of those facts.  The point was merely to say that it's an unsupportable argument to state definitively that all of Jesus' discliples were baptized by asserting that they were baptized by John because they are two completely separate baptisms for different purposes.  The baptisms of the church in Jerusalem didn't begin until Pentecost (Acts 2)  at which point your absolutely correct, all were baptized.



#25 JerryNumbers

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:34 PM

I highly disagree, I firmly believe they were all baptized, & were baptized believers. It seems they were 1st disciples of John the Baptist, them He, Jesus, called them out to become His disciple thus was the start of his 1st church, the Church at Jerusalem. 



#26 TheSword

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:15 AM

Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree here.  My study of the Sciptures show that the dispensation of the Church occurred at Pentecost and prior to that Jesus and the Apostles were still practicing Judaism (observing feasts, offerings, fasts, tithes, etc) and ministering exlusively to the Jews (aside from the occasional Gentiles who sought Jesus out of their own accord). 

 

Soteriologically speaking, one could not be a part of the body of Christ (i.e. the Church) prior to His finishing work of grace that provides for salvation.  Your references to Matt 28:18-20 occur AFTER the resurrection and were Jesus' final instructions to the Apostles before His ascension back into Heaven after which He would send the Holy Spirit.  I don't think they can be used in context to support your position.  Additionally, if we flip back a few chapters to Matt 16:13-18 we see that Jesus, while speaking to His disciples, declares that He will build His church, indicating that it was net yet in existence.  This negates your assertion that His calling out of the disciples formed the first church.

 

None of this really changes any of the fundamentals of the faith, but I don't think it's logically or scripturally sound to definitively say that the Apostles were baptized in Jesus' name prior to Pentecost and called themselves the first church before Christ's completed work.  It is, at best, an argument from silence; which can be used to say anything you want.



#27 JerryNumbers

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:53 PM

Check it out in the Bible, on the day of Pentecost souls were added to the church. For that to happen, Jesus Church had to have already existed. And for His Church to have been founded by Him, it would have had to taken place before he left earth.

 

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

And of course a church is a group of baptized believers, & that's exactly what Jesus' & His disciples were.



#28 TheSword

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:14 AM

I think that's an over-extrapolation of the text.  Verse 47 says that there were people being added daily, indicating that this was taking place in the days following Pentecost. The inception of the church occurred on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out and those present were baptized and "continued daily with one accord in the temple" (v 46).  The mention of subsequently continuing with one accord indicates that in the past they were not necessarily so, which makes sense considering that those present were from all over the world.



#29 JerryNumbers

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:09 PM

Over-extrapolation because you don't want to believe that the church was started at an earlier date, why no just believe it as it is written? That way you will not go wrong.



#30 TheSword

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 10:55 PM

It doesn't really have anything to do with what I want or don't want to believe.  I just look at what the Bible says and go from there.  If you can show me Scritpure to definitively support your position I'd change my mind in a heartbeat.  I fully understand the thought process you're going through but it seems you're inserting assumptions into your Scriptural reasoning based on what you want to believe as opposed to basing what you believe simply on what is there.  For example when you say that you firmly believe that they (not certain if you mean all of His followers or just the twelve) were first followers of John the Baptist.  The only ones you can make a case for that are Andrew, Peter, James, and John.  Matthew certainly wasn't.  I'm sure they were all baptized at some point but you can't definitively say when or where because the Bible doesn't say.  They could very well have been baptized immediately upon following Jesus or they could have just as easily been baptized with the group at Pentecost.  The point is the Bible doesn't say on way or the other so the best we can offer is speculation. 



#31 rancher824

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:23 AM

Act 1:21  Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22  Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Act 1:23  And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

 

To me these verses say that the 12 were all baptised by John. Why would they have a qualification that they did not all meet?



#32 JerryNumbers

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:40 AM

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

No. I'm not assuming anything. It clearly says, "...the Lord ADDED TO THE CHURCH daily such as should be saved."

 

Of course that just one small proof that Jesus had already built His church.

 

I'm dropping out, I know I can't talk you into this, even if I could, someone else would come along and talk you out of it. I made the last coupel of post for others who might read this topic.



#33 TheSword

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:11 AM

Act 1:21  Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22  Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Act 1:23  And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

 

To me these verses say that the 12 were all baptised by John. Why would they have a qualification that they did not all meet?

 

Rancher,

That's an excellent point that I had not noticed/considered before.  My immediate question is does that refer to Jesus' baptism by John or the Apostles'/Disciples' baptism by John.  Perhaps you are correct since the calling/joining of Matthew occurs after Jesus' baptism in all three Gospels and he was numbered of the Twelve .  I will definitely put some study in to this.  Thanks!

 

 

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

No. I'm not assuming anything. It clearly says, "...the Lord ADDED TO THE CHURCH daily such as should be saved."

 

Of course that just one small proof that Jesus had already built His church.

 

I'm dropping out, I know I can't talk you into this, even if I could, someone else would come along and talk you out of it. I made the last coupel of post for others who might read this topic.

 

Jerry,

Acts 2:47 does indeed show that the church was already built.  However, it occurs after Pentecost at the beginning of Acts 2 so it supports my point just as much or more than it does yours.  If I am frustrating you, I sincerely apologize.  That's not my intent.  I mean only to establish solid Biblical truth for a position.  Perhaps I am a bit slow on the up-take sometimes, but that makes it all the more critical for learning.



#34 swathdiver

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:21 PM

Christ was baptized to give baptism authority.

 

A New Testament Church is a local, visual, called out assembly of baptized believers.  The moment those fishermen dropped their nets to follow Christ, the 1st Baptist Church at Jerusalem was formed, not years later at Pentecost.






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