Revelation

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Posted (edited)

Well, I re-read Revelation tonight. To Chapter 20 (I skimmed through 21-22) I was still confused (more than before). So I looked back at some other relating scriptures. I think the Holy Spirit lead me; because, it at least to me it seems to have pieced together like a puzzle. Though I don't know if I've heard of anything exactly like what I pieced together before.. I'm not done; I'm planning on continuing tomorrow. So I was hoping you all could check and let me know what you think so far. I'm posting Revelation 6-7 with the references (pieces) I think fit together in it. Hopefully you all will let me know if you think I'm on the right track or not. I've been wrong before and if I'm wrong; I'm pretty sure if you show me otherwise (with scripture). I would change my mind. I want to follow the Lord's doctrine, so my goal is to go where he leads me. I'll try to color the references and comments on this post only at the very least (sometimes i do the opposite or something different) in blue and enclose them with horizontal rules. Thanks; Ephesians 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. Written from Rome unto the Ephesians by Tychicus.


Re 6:1 ¶ And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


(Mt 24:6) (Mr 13:7) EDIT: may relate to (Mt 24:5)




Re 6:3 ¶ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Re 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


(Mt 24:7) (Mr 13:8)




Re 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.


(Mr 13:9) (Mt 24:9)



Re 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Re 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


(Mt 24:15)



Re 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Re 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


(Mr 13:19-20)



Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


(Mt 24:29) (Mr 13:24-25)



Re 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


(1Th 4:16) (Mt 24:30) (2Th 1:7)


Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


(1Th 1:10)



Re 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.


(2Th 1:7) (Mr 13:27) (Mt 24:31)



Re 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,


(2Th 1:8) (Re 8)



Re 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Re 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Re 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


(Ro 11:25-26) and possibly (Ro 11:27-36)



Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Re 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


(2Th 1:10)



Re 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Re 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Re 7:13 ¶ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Re 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Re 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Re 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Edited by Nathaniel

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Nathaniel, you have a wise approach - to relate other prophetic Scripture to Revelation. It's not just a book at the end of the Bible with a free-for-all interpretation.

It has a context, a date, people to whom it was written for their instruction, action & blessing.

We need to establish whether it was written before AD 70, or a later date. I believe the internal evidence, & its relation to other Scripture favours an early date.

The primary "evidence" for a late date is an ambiguous reference by Irenaeus, written in Greek but only known in Latin translation. There is no internal evidence for a late date.

The opening chapter is clearly addressed to John's companion(s) in tribulation. Certainly we should apply to ourselves & our own situation the principles & warnings, but should exercise extreme caution in seeing the prophecies fulfilled in the TV & newspapers.

You rightly relate the seals to Jesus' Olivet prophecy, but only refer to Matthew & Mark. Luke makes it clear that the prophecy referred to AD 70.

Luke 21:6 [As for] these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 ¶ And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign [will there be] when these things shall come to pass?
....
20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Jesus tells his Apostles that the "seals" signs do not indicate the immediate end.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end [is] not by and by.

Before interpreting the seals, we need also to establish the identity of the white horseman. I consider he is the victorious Christ, not some future antichrist.

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What follows the man on the white horse in Revelation 6 is war, famine, death, chaos, and about fifteen chapters of destruction for the people of Earth.

What follows the Man on the white horse in Revelation 19 is a heavenly host, the demise the of the Beast, False Prophet, and Satan, final judgment for the wicked dead, and a New Heavens and New Earth.

Here's a chart you might find useful:

Revchart2.JPG

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What no one has explained to me it how stars can fall to earth without completely destroy it. Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Our sun is a relatively sall star but would bour up the earth long before it fell to earth. Or hpw someone could stamp the stars underfoot. Da 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

However it is quite clear from the scriptures that stars represent People, Leaders.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?


And in Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

As well as Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Not to mention Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

In prophecy stars refer to people.

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What follows the man on the white horse in Revelation 6 is war, famine, death, chaos, and about fifteen chapters of destruction for the people of Earth.

You're jumping into interpretation before establishing the basics. Nathaniel wants to understand, not to take your or my interpretation on trust.

1st seal - white horse - victory - the triumphant risen Christ.
2nd - war
3rd - famine
4th - death
5th - the martyrs in heaven calling for judgement on their persecutors
6th - earthquakes & extraordinary signs
fulfillment of Isaiah's & Jesus' prophecies:
Rev. 6:15-end & compare Isaiah 2:10-end & Luke 21:23 & Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

We MUST primarily consider the Olivet prophecy as fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem (in AD 70) as Luke makes very clear. If Revelation ties in with Olivet as you agree, then Revelation is before AD 70.

still 6th seal, 144,000 Jews delivered before the destruction
martyrs in glory, dwelling in the heavenly temple with the Lamb as their shepherd.
7th seal - Silence in heaven as the saints pray presumably for judgement on the wicked, as they prayed in 5th seal




What follows the Man on the white horse in Revelation 19 is a heavenly host, the demise the of the Beast, False Prophet, and Satan, final judgment for the wicked dead, and a New Heavens and New Earth.

The Olivet judgement is complete, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Christ now turns his attention to the nations, the time interval being unspecified - 1,000 years or a day - it's not revealed.

What we do know is that that rod of iron will be final. (See Ps. 2) He's ruling pottery!
Rev. 20 is a summary - the power of Satan is broken & the Gospel goes out to the nations; the martyred saints are seen in reigning heavenly glory, not on earth.

The fire from heaven that destroys the wicked & delivers the saints on earth corresponds to the second coming of Christ in 2 Thes. 1.

Jesus explains the first resurrection (salvation) in John 5:24 on, & the second resurrection (to life or damnation) in John 5:28-9.



But that is going too fast for a proper study. I had to respond to Rick.

We have a complete Bible, & there are many Scriptures to consider.

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But that is going too fast for a proper study. I had to respond to Rick.

We have a complete Bible, & there are many Scriptures to consider.

I prefer the bite size portions too.

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I agree with Invicta that stars are people - leaders, & when they fall, they are disgraced/killed.

The reasons for an pre-70 date include:
The immediacy of Chapter 1;
the correspondence with the Olivet prophecy;
the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem in ch 11;
the deliverance of the 144,000 Jews before the wrath of the Lamb falls;

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Posted (edited)


I agree with Invicta that stars are people - leaders, & when they fall, they are disgraced/killed.

The reasons for an pre-70 date include:
The immediacy of Chapter 1;
the correspondence with the Olivet prophecy;
the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem in ch 11;
the deliverance of the 144,000 Jews before the wrath of the Lamb falls;


That is interesting.
That would seem to explain quite a few verses like these;

(Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?)

(Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:)

(Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.)

When are you thinking the resurrection is at then? I'm not seeing how Jesus could have come and taken his wrath already; because, I thought the wrath wouldn't start until have the 144,000 Jews were sealed at the coming of the 4 angels. Which is when I thought was when we would be "raptured" Then I thought the wrath would start at the opening of the seventh seal; and the previous 6 seals would be the tribulation. (2Th 1:7; 1Th 4:16; 1Th 4:17; Mt 24:31; Re 7:9)

And also it seems I didn't correctly apply this last night. When I reread it today it was really obvious to me the application. Not sure how I missed it.. :eek:puzzled3: As its obvious I think even if one was wrong about the Jews', if they believe in Jesus; they wouldn't be in the Synagogue of Satan. (Re 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.)

Especially because If one looks at John; I think it becomes exceedingly clear what was meant.

(Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.)

So there is a flaw now, in what I thought last night. Which I can't figure out at this point. As I was using that scripture for most of my basis on The Church and Israel being separate. The only explanation I could think of would be the sealed are of fleshly Israel. Which isn't seeming very plausible to me; though there is (Ro 11:17-36) which could support it I think.

Also Invicta that is interesting too; it seems that people can be called stars. It seems most plausible to me at this point. Though not because stars are bigger; as, I think God could have made some really small stars we don't know about.

Rick: Thanks for the post; but, I'm not quite sure what you were trying to tell me. Edited by Nathaniel

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Also Invicta that is interesting too; it seems that people can be called stars. It seems most plausible to me at this point. Though not because stars are bigger; as, I think God could have made some really small stars we don't know about.


I agree that stars in prophecy often are symbolic of important people or angels, but I largely disagree with the majority of what else has been posted.

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Posted (edited)

The "stars" in the bible, when not speaking figuratively, are always referring to angels.

There will be a war in heaven in the future and ANOTHER 1/3 angels will rebel and fall. The whole passage is yet future no matter what John Milton told you.

As far as the stars falling to earth in Rev. 6:13, in Joel 3:15 which Revelation (as well as Matthew 24 and Acts 2) is referencing the passage says that they "shall withdraw their shining". So that must be figurative language unless the stars in outer space are a lot smaller then scientist would have us believe.

Edited by Wilchbla

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The "stars" in the bible, when not speaking figuratively, are always referring to angels.

There will be a war in heaven in the future and ANOTHER 1/3 angels will rebel and fall. The whole passage is yet future no matter what John Milton told you.

As far as the stars falling to earth in Rev. 6:13, in Joel 3:15 which Revelation (as well as Matthew 24 and Acts 2) is referencing the passage says that they "shall withdraw their shining". So that must be figurative language unless the stars in outer space are a lot smaller then scientist would have us believe.


I've never heard of this before. Could you explain?

Also, who is John Milton and what does he have to do with this?

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The "stars" in the bible, when not speaking figuratively, are always referring to angels.

There will be a war in heaven in the future and ANOTHER 1/3 angels will rebel and fall. The whole passage is yet future no matter what John Milton told you. The angel idea is interesting, I wouldn't mind hearing more of it. I am confused on Re 12:1 also. Maybe you could shed some light on that :) (Also thanks for your concern, I'm comparing it all with scripture. Scripture has to say it, or I wont believe it. (Though at times I've been wrong before as above.) So I try to be extra careful; (hopefully that doesn't offend anyone.) :D I believe the Holy Spirit will guide me to the answer and keep me on the right path.

As far as the stars falling to earth in Rev. 6:13, in Joel 3:15 which Revelation (as well as Matthew 24 and Acts 2) is referencing the passage says that they "shall withdraw their shining". So that must be figurative language unless the stars in outer space are a lot smaller then scientist would have us believe. Thanks for the Joel 3:15, I wasn't aware of it (If I was at any point; as relating to revelation) I'll might investigate it further tonight or possibly another day; If it is the Lord's will.

Edited by Nathaniel

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I've never heard of this before. Could you explain?

Also, who is John Milton and what does he have to do with this?


John Milton was an English poet who was born around the time the KJV was translated and whose most famous work is Paradise Lost. In Paradise Lost he has Satan already being cast out of heaven along with his angels. In other words, he has the war in Revelation already taking place in the past. Through ignorance (knowingly or unknowingly) this teaching has been incorporated into biblical theology (just like much of Dantes Inferno) over the years to where now Christians think it's the truth even though it's not taught in scripture. Satan is not in hell ruling and giving commands to his angels and the war in heaven is yet future. Not only will Satan deceive most of the world during the tribulation but he will end up deceiving another 1/3 of the angels along the way.

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Rev. 12:1 is a reference to the nation of Israel. The twelve stars are the tribes of Israel. Here is a case where "stars" could represent people but even in this case each tribe could be represented by an angel just like each of the seven churches in Rev. Chapters 1-3 are represented by angels and the nation of Israel is represented by Michael the Archangel. And don't forget, even though soul winners are said to shine as the stars in the firmanent (dan. 12:3) the scripture also says that we shall be as the angels when we get to heaven (Matt. 22:30).

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John Milton was an English poet who was born around the time the KJV was translated and whose most famous work is Paradise Lost. In Paradise Lost he has Satan already being cast out of heaven along with his angels. In other words, he has the war in Revelation already taking place in the past. Through ignorance (knowingly or unknowingly) this teaching has been incorporated into biblical theology (just like much of Dantes Inferno) over the years to where now Christians think it's the truth even though it's not taught in scripture. Satan is not in hell ruling and giving commands to his angels and the war in heaven is yet future. Not only will Satan deceive most of the world during the tribulation but he will end up deceiving another 1/3 of the angels along the way.


Thank you. I know of Milton the poet but I'm not that familiar with Pardise Lost.

You are right, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate Satan is in hell ruling. There is also plenty of evidence Satan has access to heaven and that he's a threat to us today. I've not heard the idea that a third of the angels have fallen with Satan and yet another third will fall with him in the future. Could you elaborate upon that and give the Scritpure references so I could look into this?

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:ot:

Thank you. I know of Milton the poet but I'm not that familiar with Pardise Lost.


I was recently lent a book of Milton's poems. "Paradise Lost" is from pages 113 to 385. A few years ago, after the BBC read aloud the whole Bible (AV) in 15 minute sections, they read "Paradise Lost." It took several weeks.

I still haven't read it. Perhaps I would if I take it to my desert island with 8 records ...

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:11backtotopic:

I hope you all agree that Jesus was primarily talking about the AD 70 destruction in his Olivet prophecy, even if you see details that you consider yet to be fulfilled.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
.....
29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus lived the Old Covenant Scriptures, often simply quoting them; at other times giving the meaning.

Luk 24:44 ¶ And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

To understand, rather than interpret, Mat. 24 we need to refer to the related OT Scriptures. The fall or darkening of sun moon & stars is associated with the end of an great empire or kingdom.

e.g. Babylon, to be overrun by the Medes:

Isa 13:1 ¶ The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
....
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
....
17 ¶ Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and [as for] gold, they shall not delight in it.

A very graphic prophecy of a successful invasion.

Also Egypt:

Eze 32:2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt,....
....
7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
...
11 ¶ For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.

Jesus' prophecy is of the extinction of Israel as a nation, given in the same terms as Babylon & Egypt.

Peter declares the prophecy of Joel in similar language:

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Those were the last days of Israel as a nation; & Peter gave a glorious Gospel call - whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

They were given a generation of 30-40 years to repent & call on the name of Jesus, before that great and notable day of the Lord when their lights would be extinguished.

They had seen the literal sun darkened while the Son of God hung on the cross. Would they take the warning, or would the lights of the nation be extinguished?

A greater than Jonah preached to them.

Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

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Posted (edited)

Israel is not extinct, and God always keeps His promises.

Brother Nathaniel, please understand that Covenanter is a Preterist. Meaning he believe that there is no such thing as a Great Tribulation as described by Jesus and spoken of in great detail in fifteen chapters of Revelation. He assigns all this to Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 A.D. Though I have no idea what he does when it talks about 1/3 of the Earth's population being killed, 1/3 of life in the sea being killed, and 1/3 of everything green being burnt up. That never happened in 70 A.D.

There are so many prophesies that haven't been fufilled yet: When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about the 200-million-man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? And what date was it when the Euphrates River dried up?

He doesn't believe in a Millennium either, though I do give him credit for believing in the future New Heavens and New Earth. If one does believe like Ian, at least he does have hope in that. He relegates all the wonderful prophesies of the Millennium to the NH & NE, ignoring the prophesies that are wonderful indeed, but clearly not of the NH & NE, such as people living to very old ages but still dying (no death in NH & NE) and Millennial prophesies of the sea being filled with the knowledge of the Lord (no sea in the NH & NE).

He would have you to combine the Judgment Seat of Christ (I Cor. 3), the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25), and the Great White Throne Judgment altogether in one general judgment. I'm not sure how he handles the Battle of Armageddon and the Battle of Gog and Magog and the thousand years in between. I do know that he thinks the thousand years in Revelation 20 started in 70 A.D., and is still going on. This, of course, would mean that Satan was bound, right now, in the bottomless pit. As in bound during the Dark Ages as well, when Satan ruled the world through the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe he got out for awhile or has a really long chain. In spite of all the war, suffering, and problems since Jesus left this Earth, Covenanter would have you to believe that Jesus is ruling the world right now and that we are in the Millennium. This ignores the fact that Paul calls Satan the god of this world.

Basically, in the end, Jesus said the events in Revelation were going to happen soon. This is what Covenanter bases everything on to backdate Revelation before 70 A.D. and squeeze all of the catastrophic events in Revelation to 70 A.D. Yes, Jesus said that, but He also said that things that happened in the Great Tribulation were so extreme that we've never seen them before and they'd never happen again. To assign that to Jerusalem getting sacked in 70 A.D. is to ignore Nebuchadnezzar's attack in 606 B.C. and Hitler's holocaust.

Another favorite attack is bringing up history and, most recently, claiming that Jesuits invented the idea of pre-Millennialism. I have no idea how pre-Millennialism would help the RCC, because the greatest soul winners over the last two hundred years have all been pre-Millennial and much of the time led people out of the Roman Catholic Church. The history argument against pre-Millennialism and Dispensations is an argument that is to try and get you out of your Bible. Historically, many theologians have been dead wrong, so why should we care? I care what the Bible says.

I have no idea what he thinks about the rapture. Maybe he thinks it happened in 70 A.D. as well, I'd like to know. In the Olivet Prophesy, Jesus talks about how when all these things happen, to look up for your redemption draweth nigh. If the Olivet was limited to only the destruction of Jerusalem, then those looking up saw nothing and were not delivered, and there was no redemption drawing nigh. If you believe Revelation 19 and several Old Testament passages you see Israel being surrounded by her enemies and Jesus Christ returning to Earth bodily and destroying those armies. THAT is redemption drawing nigh.

I'm not trying to smear Ian, and he's more than welcome to correct me if I've said he believes something here that he doesn't. I say all this because I feel it's only fair for you to know what you're getting into when you listen to him and I'd have no problem with someone exposing what I believe. I like Ian, and I know he loves the Lord and has a heart for helping people and spreading the Gospel, but he’s really off on his end times stuff.

Edited by Rick Schworer
Seth Doty and LindaR like this

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Posted (edited)

My beliefs are based on a careful study of Scripture. Note that Rick makes no attempt to argue from Scripture, only ad hominem from his own opinions.

Let's keep the discussion courteous, & led by Scripture.

1. Can anyone challenge from Scripture a pre-destruction date for Revelation? (Post #7)

2. Can anyone show from Scripture that Jesus' Olivet prophecy does not relate primarily to the destruction? (AD 70)

Edited by Covenanter

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He would have you to combine the Judgment Seat of Christ (I Cor. 3), the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25), and the Great White Throne Judgment altogether in one general judgment. I'm not sure how he handles the Battle of Armageddon and the Battle of Gog and Magog and the thousand years in between. I do know that he thinks the thousand years in Revelation 20 started in 70 A.D., and is still going on. This, of course, would mean that Satan was bound, right now, in the bottomless pit. As in bound during the Dark Ages as well, when Satan ruled the world through the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe he got out for awhile or has a really long chain. In spite of all the war, suffering, and problems since Jesus left this Earth, Covenanter would have you to believe that Jesus is ruling the world right now and that we are in the Millennium. This ignores the fact that Paul calls Satan the god of this world.

You have to give scriptural reasons why the Judgment Seat of Christ (I Cor. 3), the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25), and the Great White Throne Judgment are not different descriptions of the same event.

Basically, in the end, Jesus said the events in Revelation were going to happen soon. This is what Covenanter bases everything on to backdate Revelation before 70 A.D. and squeeze all of the catastrophic events in Revelation to 70 A.D. Yes, Jesus said that, but He also said that things that happened in the Great Tribulation were so extreme that we've never seen them before and they'd never happen again. To assign that to Jerusalem getting sacked in 70 A.D. is to ignore Nebuchadnezzar's attack in 606 B.C. and Hitler's holocaust.

Not so extreme, but such as. There is a difference as I posted recently. The tribulation in The Roman was "such as" never happened before or since. Not in intensity, but in type.

Another favorite attack is bringing up history and, most recently, claiming that Jesuits invented the idea of pre-Millennialism. I have no idea how pre-Millennialism would help the RCC, because the greatest soul winners over the last two hundred years have all been pre-Millennial and much of the time led people out of the Roman Catholic Church. The history argument against pre-Millennialism and Dispensations is an argument that is to try and get you out of your Bible. Historically, many theologians have been dead wrong, so why should we care? I care what the Bible says.

It is an historical fact, you can check it if you bother with reading. The Jesuits did not invent pre-millenialiism, but they did invent dispensationalism, and that is what emancipated the RCC by denying the previous teaching that the Pope was Antichrist and making him some future fictional figure. When that teaching came in to favour, the way was open to the RCC to elbow her war into popular thought as an valid Christian church. Incidentally, as I have already posted the RCC also introduced preterism which had the same effect, denying the pope his actual position as the Antichrist, or as he calls himself, The Vicar Of Christ, which means exactly the same thing.

I have no idea what he thinks about the rapture. Maybe he thinks it happened in 70 A.D. as well, I'd like to know. In the Olivet Prophesy, Jesus talks about how when all these things happen, to look up for your redemption draweth nigh. If the Olivet was limited to only the destruction of Jerusalem, then those looking up saw nothing and were not delivered, and there was no redemption drawing nigh. If you believe Revelation 19 and several Old Testament passages you see Israel being surrounded by her enemies and Jesus Christ returning to Earth bodily and destroying those armies. THAT is redemption drawing nigh.

Rapture is not a scriptural word so we don't have to think anything of it. Jesus will return to earth on the last day
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

and the dead in christ will rise and we shll join them in meeting the Lord in the air. The judgment will also occur on the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I'm not trying to smear Ian, and he's more than welcome to correct me if I've said he believes something here that he doesn't. I say all this because I feel it's only fair for you to know what you're getting into when you listen to him and I'd have no problem with someone exposing what I believe. I like Ian, and I know he loves the Lord and has a heart for helping people and spreading the Gospel, but he’s really off on his end times stuff.


I once discussed some of this with a pastor I disagreed with and said We cannot all be right, at the most only one can be correct, but we can all be wrong." He said, "I'm not wrong." he would not agree with any of the views expressed here, being an 'Hendriksen man'."

Remember that Bro Rick. The more sure we are that we are right and we can never be wrong, the more likely we are wrong.

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The more sure we are that we are right and we can never be wrong, the more likely we are wrong.


Beside the fact that I didn't seen anyone claiming that they "could never be wrong" that sort of statement begs the question, are you completely sure of that? :saint2: Edited by Seth-Doty

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I get a lot of stick for suggesting that AD 70 was a "coming" of Jesus in judgement of the generation that rejected him.

Our Pastor is currently preaching from Micah, who prophesies:

Mic 1:1 ¶ The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.
2 ¶ Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, [and] as the waters [that are] poured down a steep place.
5 For the transgression of Jacob [is] all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What [is] the transgression of Jacob? [is it] not Samaria? and what [are] the high places of Judah? [are they] not Jerusalem?

That happened when the Assyrians overwhelmed the northern kingdom, & the Babylonians Judah.

The AD 70 coming is quite separate from the Lord Jesus coming at the end of time for resurrection & judgement, & to bring about the NH&NE.

Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

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A major point of contention, as I've noticed in my readings, is in regards to the date the book of Revelation was written. Whether written before or after 70 A. D. impacts interpretation, or at least potentially so.

Most of what I've been reading is long on telling the date the author thinks is right, whether pre or post 70 A. D., and very short on providing proof that backs their claim.

What evidence is there which leads to the determining of the time Revelation was written?

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A major point of contention, as I've noticed in my readings, is in regards to the date the book of Revelation was written. Whether written before or after 70 A. D. impacts interpretation, or at least potentially so.

Most of what I've been reading is long on telling the date the author thinks is right, whether pre or post 70 A. D., and very short on providing proof that backs their claim.

What evidence is there which leads to the determining of the time Revelation was written?

Good point John. The internal evidence, some of which I have indicated, & the correspondence with the Olivet prophecies, is overwhelming for an pre-70 date.

Here is another point:

1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

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A major point of contention, as I've noticed in my readings, is in regards to the date the book of Revelation was written. Whether written before or after 70 A. D. impacts interpretation, or at least potentially so.

Most of what I've been reading is long on telling the date the author thinks is right, whether pre or post 70 A. D., and very short on providing proof that backs their claim.

What evidence is there which leads to the determining of the time Revelation was written?


Pre-70 A.D.: Verses in Revelation that state that the things in Revelation shall shortly come to pass, and the sense immanency of the verses regarding the return of Christ.

Post-70 A.D.: Nothing after Revelation 4 has happened yet, and Irenaeus said it was written around 90 A.D. From what I've read, Polycarp who was the bishop of the Smyrna church said that there was no church in Smyrna during the time of Paul. Paul died 67 A.D., therefore indicating a future date for Revelation at a time in which there was a church in Smyrna. Laodicea was destroyed by an earthquake in 60 A.D., hardly leaving it "rich and in need of nothing," for the next 25 years. If Revelation was written in 90 A.D. then there's no issue.

Even if Revelation was written before 70 A.D. it doesn't hurt the futurist argument, but if it was written in 90 A.D. it destroys the Preterist one. The things in Revelation haven't happened yet, and that's all there is to it. Flying scorpions out of the bottomless pit, the mark of the beast, 100 pound hailstones, 1/3 of the green grass, sea life, and human life destroyed, Satan being cast into the pit and chained up, the list goes on. This and a host of other things haven't happened yet, and they certainly didn't happen in 70 A.D.

In answer to a previous question about the judgments: at the Judgment Seat of Christ (I Cor. 3) those who are being judged have Christ as their foundation and receive gold, silver, and precious stones as rewards. At the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20), people are resurrected from the sea and Hell and they either go into the Lake of Fire or not, there is no word of any of them having Christ as their foundation or receiving rewards, and they are judged based upon whether or not their names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Lastly, those at the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25) are judged by Christ when He comes (70 A.D.????) based upon their treatment of "the brethren," and they are either allowed to live or are cast into everlasting punishment. The differences are very obvious to anyone willing to read the chapters and just study them for what they say without trying to twist them into a presupposed interpretation.

Lastly, Covenanter, there was nothing "ad hominem" about post #18. I was being transparent about what you believe, feel free to correct me where I'm wrong. Edited by Rick Schworer

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