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#1 Covenanter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:49 AM

Budget meeting

#2 John81

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 06:52 AM

How true!

#3 Miss Linda

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:47 AM

This actually addresses an issue about which I have been praying lately. I'm really starting to question whether it is right for me to continue to work for attorneys. I sincerely hope this statement will not offend any member of this forum, but I do think that attorneys are "professional liars". Every attorney for whom I have ever worked has operated under the philosophy that the truth is something to be manipulated, as one lawyer told me with a leering smirk, the truth is what the smarter person can argue. They spend their days studying ways to manipulate statutes and regulations so they can find loopholes to gain a decision in their favor.

I worry that my working as a secretary for lawyers may be displeasing to God. but then I think of Joseph in the book of Genesis, who worked for Pharaoh most of his adult life. He was part of a pagan government system but still managed to be faithful to God. *sigh*. Not sure what to do in this issue. I'm still praying about it.

#4 John81

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:31 AM

This actually addresses an issue about which I have been praying lately. I'm really starting to question whether it is right for me to continue to work for attorneys. I sincerely hope this statement will not offend any member of this forum, but I do think that attorneys are "professional liars". Every attorney for whom I have ever worked has operated under the philosophy that the truth is something to be manipulated, as one lawyer told me with a leering smirk, the truth is what the smarter person can argue. They spend their days studying ways to manipulate statutes and regulations so they can find loopholes to gain a decision in their favor.

I worry that my working as a secretary for lawyers may be displeasing to God. but then I think of Joseph in the book of Genesis, who worked for Pharaoh most of his adult life. He was part of a pagan government system but still managed to be faithful to God. *sigh*. Not sure what to do in this issue. I'm still praying about it.

Seeking the Lord in prayer is the right response. Unless the Lord leads you to leave that job, you should probably remain.

I recall a former lawyer discussing this sort of thing. He remembered how prior to some laws that came into effect in the 1960s, such as Miranda, it was rather common to seek the truth. It was even common for criminals, once caught, to confess and take responsibility for their crime. After Miranda and other laws passed in the 60s, this all changed. From that point onward criminals were told to keep silent until a lawyer could come along and help them create a story that might let them go free or get a lighter sentence.

You are right that most lawyers today, whether prosecutor or defense, spend their time trying to hide anything true that goes against what they want, while overplaying any truth that agrees with their goals, and they are willing to use lies believing the means justify the ends.

I took paralegal classes, even earning my certificate, but doing paralegal work was too corrupt. Likely as not, in some situations I could take a clerk or secretary type position. I've worked in a secular university admissions office. There were those in the leadership positions who were more concerned about finding anyway possible for students to qualify for public assistance than they were with the truth. They would coach students in how to lie on the forms so they could get the Pell Grant and other "free" government assistance. That's something I would be unwilling to do, but my job didn't require that.

It can be tough knowing where it is and isn't acceptable to work. Some cases are easy, such as being a bartender, it should be clear that's not a job for Christians. Yet other jobs we absolutely need to seek direct guidance from the Lord in prayer. Wal-Mart sells alcoholic beverages, but most people who work for Wal-Mart have no direct part in that. Factories and other businesses are often owned by the unsaved and practice some, or a lot of, unethical business practices; yet most employees have no active part in that, and may not even know about it.

I will lift your situation to Lord in prayer too. :icon_pray:

#5 Miss Linda

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 09:02 AM

Seeking the Lord in prayer is the right response. Unless the Lord leads you to leave that job, you should probably remain.

I recall a former lawyer discussing this sort of thing. He remembered how prior to some laws that came into effect in the 1960s, such as Miranda, it was rather common to seek the truth. It was even common for criminals, once caught, to confess and take responsibility for their crime. After Miranda and other laws passed in the 60s, this all changed. From that point onward criminals were told to keep silent until a lawyer could come along and help them create a story that might let them go free or get a lighter sentence.

You are right that most lawyers today, whether prosecutor or defense, spend their time trying to hide anything true that goes against what they want, while overplaying any truth that agrees with their goals, and they are willing to use lies believing the means justify the ends.

I took paralegal classes, even earning my certificate, but doing paralegal work was too corrupt. Likely as not, in some situations I could take a clerk or secretary type position. I've worked in a secular university admissions office. There were those in the leadership positions who were more concerned about finding anyway possible for students to qualify for public assistance than they were with the truth. They would coach students in how to lie on the forms so they could get the Pell Grant and other "free" government assistance. That's something I would be unwilling to do, but my job didn't require that.

It can be tough knowing where it is and isn't acceptable to work. Some cases are easy, such as being a bartender, it should be clear that's not a job for Christians. Yet other jobs we absolutely need to seek direct guidance from the Lord in prayer. Wal-Mart sells alcoholic beverages, but most people who work for Wal-Mart have no direct part in that. Factories and other businesses are often owned by the unsaved and practice some, or a lot of, unethical business practices; yet most employees have no active part in that, and may not even know about it.

I will lift your situation to Lord in prayer too. :icon_pray:


Thank you very much for your prayers! I too obtained a paralegal certificate many years ago. Like you, I realized that I could not practice as a paralegal without compromising Biblical principles so I have continued to work as a legal secretary instead.

Your points about Wal-Mart employees, and employees in other businesses, is well taken. I suppose no secular business is without its sinful influences and actions. I guess my overarching concern is to avoid earning my living in a way that is displeasing to my Lord. I have had to clarify that there are some things I will not do (work on the Lord's Day, for example, or participate in any sort of deceptive practice), but thus far that has not cost me my job.

I just need to keep praying for wisdom to know what His will is. Even typing that sentence sends a thrill of joy through me! Glory to God that the Creator of Heaven and Earth cares to direct my life!

Thank you again, very much, for your prayers.

" . . . The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (James 5:16)

#6 HappyChristian

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:20 AM

My hubby went to school with Scott Adams. He doesn't know for sure if it's the same guy, but the one he went to school with liked to draw...(he actually detests Dilbert, but would agree that this is the likely truth in many businesses).

I would agree with John that, unless the Lord leads you elsewhere, stay where you are. You cited Joseph, a good example. But another to remember is Esther. She was specifically put into a heathen situation. But her faithfulness and her bravery ended up saving an entire nation from destruction. You won't know until eternity how your testimony - by your dress, your speech and your mannerisms, as well as actual witnessing - has affected your co-workers. Unfortunately, you are not the only one who works with people who manipulate the truth...I do, too. And I have rather embarrassed my boss a time or two when she's recommended that I, um, stretch the truth and I told her flat out that I cannot and will not lie. She finally quit making those kind of comments and she respects me, even if she thinks I'm wacko. :icon_mrgreen:

#7 Covenanter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:51 AM

Perhaps I should not have put this in the "Humour" section! It's too true!

#8 Miss Linda

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:55 AM

My hubby went to school with Scott Adams. He doesn't know for sure if it's the same guy, but the one he went to school with liked to draw...(he actually detests Dilbert, but would agree that this is the likely truth in many businesses).

I would agree with John that, unless the Lord leads you elsewhere, stay where you are. You cited Joseph, a good example. But another to remember is Esther. She was specifically put into a heathen situation. But her faithfulness and her bravery ended up saving an entire nation from destruction. You won't know until eternity how your testimony - by your dress, your speech and your mannerisms, as well as actual witnessing - has affected your co-workers. Unfortunately, you are not the only one who works with people who manipulate the truth...I do, too. And I have rather embarrassed my boss a time or two when she's recommended that I, um, stretch the truth and I told her flat out that I cannot and will not lie. She finally quit making those kind of comments and she respects me, even if she thinks I'm wacko. :icon_mrgreen:

Esther IS another good one to remember! I guess I always think of Joseph because I see him as sort of an administrative officer--an early iteration of an office worker.

And I know exactly what you mean about co-workers thinking of you as "wacko" because you refuse to engage in deceptive practices. It is so sad that deception has become an accepted and expected business practice. I suppose you are right-- mannerisms and dress do serve as a witness. People periodically ask me what church I attend and I assume that comes from the long skirts.

#9 Covenanter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:49 AM

Naaman was given permission to bow & worship the LORD when his king was worshipping Rimmon.

2Ki 5:17 And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the LORD.
18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, [that] when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing.
19 And he said unto him, Go in peace. ....

However we must be aware of possible compromise & resultant bad witness.

#10 HappyChristian

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:02 PM

Naaman was given permission to bow & worship the LORD when his king was worshipping Rimmon.

2Ki 5:17 And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the LORD.
18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, [that] when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing.
19 And he said unto him, Go in peace. ....

However we must be aware of possible compromise & resultant bad witness.


Good reminder, Covenantor!

#11 irishman

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:24 PM

maybe this is out for another post, in another place, but many Christian businessmen have a problem with compromise too! I know some who "flip" houses, and when fixing them up, take a lot of shortcuts that hurt the buyer. Then there are those that promise returns and don't come through, (they can always blame it on the company). I have gotten so I would almost rather deal with unsaved businessmen, at least I expect them to burn me!

#12 HappyChristian

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:26 PM

maybe this is out for another post, in another place, but many Christian businessmen have a problem with compromise too! I know some who "flip" houses, and when fixing them up, take a lot of shortcuts that hurt the buyer. Then there are those that promise returns and don't come through, (they can always blame it on the company). I have gotten so I would almost rather deal with unsaved businessmen, at least I expect them to burn me!


That is so true, irishman. I remember when I was babysitting years ago, it was Christian folk who tried to get me to watch their child(ren) for less then peanuts, but then turned around and wanted to charge exorbitant rates for what they did...Fortunately, they aren't all that way!

#13 JerryNumbers

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 04:36 PM

maybe this is out for another post, in another place, but many Christian businessmen have a problem with compromise too! I know some who "flip" houses, and when fixing them up, take a lot of shortcuts that hurt the buyer. Then there are those that promise returns and don't come through, (they can always blame it on the company). I have gotten so I would almost rather deal with unsaved businessmen, at least I expect them to burn me!


There was a time when a saved man would bring respectability to a business, yet I don't know if that is true anymore.

With what we see some lawyers do, it surely makes many of us wonder how a lawyer could be a Christian, for they seem not to believer there is absolute truths, and with God we know there is absolute truth..

#14 John81

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 07:39 PM


maybe this is out for another post, in another place, but many Christian businessmen have a problem with compromise too! I know some who "flip" houses, and when fixing them up, take a lot of shortcuts that hurt the buyer. Then there are those that promise returns and don't come through, (they can always blame it on the company). I have gotten so I would almost rather deal with unsaved businessmen, at least I expect them to burn me!


There was a time when a saved man would bring respectability to a business, yet I don't know if that is true anymore.

With what we see some lawyers do, it surely makes many of us wonder how a lawyer could be a Christian, for they seem not to believer there is absolute truths, and with God we know there is absolute truth..

We have a couple shady Christian businessmen around this little town. Most locals know to beware because both men will charge far more than anyone else around for their services.

We do have one solid Christian businessman in our town. He attends our church and for all of his services he charges only a tiny amount over expenses. He did a small job for me one year and charged me 6 dollars while others in the area were charging 20 or more for the exact same thing.

#15 Miss Linda

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 08:33 PM

There was a time when a saved man would bring respectability to a business, yet I don't know if that is true anymore.

With what we see some lawyers do, it surely makes many of us wonder how a lawyer could be a Christian, for they seem not to believer there is absolute truths, and with God we know there is absolute truth..

I wonder the same thing, Jerry. Since I work so closely with lawyers I have seen first-hand how they twist laws and statutes to favor the view that they want. How can a person not be effected if they spend their work days twisting regulations to suit their purposes? A person who has trained their mind to think that way cannot pick up the holy Word of God and suddenly switch to a different way of thinking and, as you said, acknowledge the absolute truths to be found there.

The attorneys I have known take great pride in being able to argue a point and twist the meaning of something to suit their purposes. They believe that the truth is what the smarter person can argue. Several years ago one attorney I worked for became frustrated with me when I said something about a "lie always being a lie". He said that if that were true then attorneys would never be able to make a living, and said I lived in a "fantasy world" where everything was black and white. I don't know about living in a fantasy world, but it seems to me that most things really are black and white. I don't think you can justify practicing falsehoods in the name of business. I believe God expects us to follow Him in all our dealings, not just in our personal lives but in our professional lives too. How can you separate the two without staining your soul with sin?

I truly do fear for their souls and I cannot see how a fervent Christian could make their living as an attorney without severely compromising themselves.

"And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity." (Jeremiah 9:5)

Edited by Miss Linda, 18 June 2011 - 08:35 PM.


#16 "I am chief"

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 05:50 PM

I sincerely hope this statement will not offend any member of this forum, but I do think that attorneys are "professional liars".


The one lawyer who posted here as I recall moved to the Caribbean Islands and we haven't heard from him since. He most likely would have argued
against your comments by manipulating some obscure loophole. :D

#17 John81

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 07:11 PM

I've read of some attorneys that could no longer be prosecutors because their conscience began eating away at them from all their lies and manipulations in getting people put behind bars. Some switched to being defense attorneys only to find the same corruption on that side of the aisle as well.

I've also read of defense attorneys who gave up high paying jobs because they could no longer live with the fact they were helping to set free dangerous criminals they knew were guilty.

Even so, those who have done this are few. It seems most attorneys don't really care about right or wrong, guilt or innocense, only in gaining recognition as a winner and building large bank accounts.

Of course, some people in various other professions are the same way.

#18 rancher824

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 10:47 PM



maybe this is out for another post, in another place, but many Christian businessmen have a problem with compromise too! I know some who "flip" houses, and when fixing them up, take a lot of shortcuts that hurt the buyer. Then there are those that promise returns and don't come through, (they can always blame it on the company). I have gotten so I would almost rather deal with unsaved businessmen, at least I expect them to burn me!


There was a time when a saved man would bring respectability to a business, yet I don't know if that is true anymore.

With what we see some lawyers do, it surely makes many of us wonder how a lawyer could be a Christian, for they seem not to believer there is absolute truths, and with God we know there is absolute truth..

We have a couple shady Christian businessmen around this little town. Most locals know to beware because both men will charge far more than anyone else around for their services.

We do have one solid Christian businessman in our town. He attends our church and for all of his services he charges only a tiny amount over expenses. He did a small job for me one year and charged me 6 dollars while others in the area were charging 20 or more for the exact same thing.



Not meaning to disagree, or question to deep, but are you sure it is "the exact same thing?" What I am getting at is that in my area there are guys who do the same thing as I do for much less money. But they do not do the "exact same thing." I try hard to put lots of quality into my work when I build a house. They try to put up a house that looks good at a glance. I just finished a job that I was called into after one of these had started it. It almost got away from him, trying to lay back down. Another contractor was called in to stabilize and brace it. I then came in to do the cabinets and trim. Another example is that I loose work to guys who put 1/2" material where I put 3/4" to make a better cabinet. Theirs is cheaper because it is cheaper!!! Another thought is that a man who is retired and doing something as a hobby can do it much cheaper than a man raising a family. Plus if the price is given up front, that would not fit into being liars, or even dishonest.

#19 John81

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 06:36 AM




maybe this is out for another post, in another place, but many Christian businessmen have a problem with compromise too! I know some who "flip" houses, and when fixing them up, take a lot of shortcuts that hurt the buyer. Then there are those that promise returns and don't come through, (they can always blame it on the company). I have gotten so I would almost rather deal with unsaved businessmen, at least I expect them to burn me!


There was a time when a saved man would bring respectability to a business, yet I don't know if that is true anymore.

With what we see some lawyers do, it surely makes many of us wonder how a lawyer could be a Christian, for they seem not to believer there is absolute truths, and with God we know there is absolute truth..

We have a couple shady Christian businessmen around this little town. Most locals know to beware because both men will charge far more than anyone else around for their services.

We do have one solid Christian businessman in our town. He attends our church and for all of his services he charges only a tiny amount over expenses. He did a small job for me one year and charged me 6 dollars while others in the area were charging 20 or more for the exact same thing.



Not meaning to disagree, or question to deep, but are you sure it is "the exact same thing?" What I am getting at is that in my area there are guys who do the same thing as I do for much less money. But they do not do the "exact same thing." I try hard to put lots of quality into my work when I build a house. They try to put up a house that looks good at a glance. I just finished a job that I was called into after one of these had started it. It almost got away from him, trying to lay back down. Another contractor was called in to stabilize and brace it. I then came in to do the cabinets and trim. Another example is that I loose work to guys who put 1/2" material where I put 3/4" to make a better cabinet. Theirs is cheaper because it is cheaper!!! Another thought is that a man who is retired and doing something as a hobby can do it much cheaper than a man raising a family. Plus if the price is given up front, that would not fit into being liars, or even dishonest.

I understand what you area getting at. In the cases I was referring to here, yes it was the exact same thing.

We did have two other businesses in town, one conducting business of quality, along the lines you describe, and charging reasonable rates; while the other provided shoddy quality and inflated prices. Eventually the shoddy business folded as experience and word finally got around.

We have a man in town who, when he's unemployed, will do home repair work, charging about half of what others do. He does excellent work in a timely manner. Then there are those who travel around the area doing home repairs and they charge less than many others but the material they use is typically of poor quality and their work is rushed to completion rather than done only as quickly as quality work can be done.

#20 farouk

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 10:14 PM

Ms Linda:

I do strongly sympathize with your situation. Truth is supposed to be the very principle which binds together the administration of laws.

I guess I've been around lawyers. There are one or two points which I've also observed.

However earnestly a lawyer seems to argue in favor of his or her client's position, it is a recognized thing that the lawyer him- or herself is ultimately not responsible for the arguments used to defend the client, but rather is acting on the instruction of the client. A derived point from this is that he or she is understood by a court to be able to work with information which is only as good and accurate as the client has told him or her.

Sometimes a qualified lawyer in his or her own practice has more leeway to guide the direction in which cases go, without resorting to underhand methods. This suggests to me that it's not the profession which is inherently unethical, but what individual practitioners make of it may sometimes be unethical.

Part of the problem lies also in the culture of some very conservative churches, whereby so many things may be seen in terms of knee-jerk reactions in stark, black-and-white terms that admit to few shades of grey. Whereas the Bible has plenty of things which are absolutely clear, but also plenty of other things which admit to shades of clarity and meaning. Someone accustomed to starkly reactive modes of thinking might find it hard to admit even to the existence of either subtle complexities of meaning, or at least the possibility of a broadening of responsibility for cases and legal arguments.

Actually I think it's far more sinister when a prosecutor bends the truth. I'm talking about criminal cases now. A lawyer will typically say about an accused client, that he or she doesn't need to prove anything. The onus is entirely on the prosecution to put together a compelling case. A derived aspect of this is that a lawyer can't even pretend to have the whole truth. 'My client instructs' is a term which, although it may not be used, does underlie so much of what the lawyer does.

(Two cents'.) Blessings.

Edited by farouk, 17 July 2011 - 10:17 PM.





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