False Teacher Accusing False Teacher?

[heartstrings 1252]

First, let me say that the man in this video is teaching false doctrine. This guy seems to be saying that Charles Stanley wrote, in his book "Eternal Security" that Hell is not eternal. I've never read any of Stanley's books and I don't watch him on TV so, can someone tell me if this is true? Does Stanley teach false doctrine/s?

[Brother Rick 244]

I don't know. I suppose in a way Hell isn't eternal - it goes into the Lake of Fire following the Great White Throne Judgment. I'm curious about the context of what Stanley said.

I can't see the video for some reason.

[LindaR 505]

Who is this guy on the video? We have Charles Stanley's book "Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure?" and what Charles Stanley teaches is Millennial Exclusion...which is another false doctrine. This false doctrine is also taught by Joey Faust (The Rod: Will God Spare It?), Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkins, and Joseph Dillow. You can find information about this false teaching on the Middletown Bible Church website: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org This guy on the video, whoever he is, is teaching that eternal security (OSAS) is a false doctrine and he seems to be twisting another false doctrine to "fit" his false teaching. Both this guy and Charles Stanley are false teachers.

Here's a link from the Middletown Bible Church website that shows where Charles Stanley Millennial Exclusion :

http://www.middletow...ne/hodgesov.htm

There is a theological movement today which divides Christ's beloved body and bride into two distinct groups with two distinct destinies. They teach that every believer will eventually be placed into one of two distinct classes. They teach that some believers will live a victorious life and will be part of a class called "overcomers." They will reign with Christ during the millennium. On the other hand, there will be a large number of believers who will "flunk out" at the judgment seat of Christ, they will not inherit the kingdom of God, they will experience weeping and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness and they will not be classed with the overcomers.

Zane Hodges has influenced certain influential men toward this doctrinal position, including 1) Joseph Dillow, the author of The Reign of the Servant Kings, has systematized this teaching in this one, comprehensive, massive volume which may be considered as the key theology book for this movement; 2) Robert Wilkin heads up the Grace Evangelical Society which publishes a newsletter which is sent to a readership of 9,000 and a theological journal which also has a circulation of 900. This society also publishes a number of books by Hodges, Wilkin and others. They also highly recommend Dillow's book; 3) Charles Stanley, the well-known television preacher from Atlanta, embraces this position as seen in his book, Eternal Security. His reliance upon Hodges is seen in the footnotes. 4) Chuck and Nancy Missler, influenced by Dillow and others, strongly push this view in their book, The Kingdom, Power, & Glory--The Overcomer's Handbook (a 400 pages volume).

Edited 12 Oct 2011 by LindaR

[John81 5917]

Who is this guy on the video? We have Charles Stanley's book "Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure?" and what Charles Stanley teaches is Milennial Exclusion...which is another false doctrine. This false doctrine is also taught by Joey Faust (The Rod: Will God Spare It?), Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkins, and Joseph Dillow. You can find information about this false teaching on the Middletown Bible Church website: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org This guy on the video, whoever he is, is teaching that eternal security (OSAS) is a false doctrine and he seems to be twisting another false doctrine to "fit" his false teaching. Both this guy and Charles Stanley are false teachers.

Are you sure Stanley is actually teaching Milennial Exclusion? I recall a few years ago reading something about this charge and a response to it by Stanley which said that's not what he was teaching. It's been long enough ago I don't recall all the details, or even remember all of what ME is about, but I do recall coming across that.

If I recall correctly, hasn't Stanley adopted the teaching that some folks may be born again without ever showing any signs of salvation? I was thinking I saw a quote or a clip of his from about a year ago where he said some people may be born again yet continue to live like the devil.

I know some of his teachings have certainly turned much different from how he taught early on.

[Brother Rick 244]

"Milennial Exclusion" - as in people during the Millennium can't go to Hell? Really?

[Brother Rick 244]

From http://newcreationperson.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/is-millennial-exclusion-biblical/

"Question: Have you heard of the doctrine of millennial exclusion? Christians who live carnal lives and do not qualify to reign with Christ in his kingdom are judged at the Judgment seat – the doctrine continues and says those unworthy Christians are slain and cast into outer darkness for the period of 1000 years. Then they are to be resurrected to live out eternity with God. The teaching is in a book “The Rod – Will God Spare It?” by JD Faust. I would really appreciate some help with this; it is beginning to flavor my thoughts about God. Thank you."

Bad stuff.

[John81 5917]

From http://newcreationpe...usion-biblical/

"Question: Have you heard of the doctrine of millennial exclusion? Christians who live carnal lives and do not qualify to reign with Christ in his kingdom are judged at the Judgment seat – the doctrine continues and says those unworthy Christians are slain and cast into outer darkness for the period of 1000 years. Then they are to be resurrected to live out eternity with God. The teaching is in a book “The Rod – Will God Spare It?” by JD Faust. I would really appreciate some help with this; it is beginning to flavor my thoughts about God. Thank you."

Bad stuff.

Thank you for the reminder, that's exactly what I remember reading about and I recall that Stanley presented a rebuttal saying he didn't believe this. Although it's possible Stanley has changed his mind since then.

[LindaR 505]

Are you sure Stanley is actually teaching Milennial Exclusion? I recall a few years ago reading something about this charge and a response to it by Stanley which said that's not what he was teaching. It's been long enough ago I don't recall all the details, or even remember all of what ME is about, but I do recall coming across that.

If I recall correctly, hasn't Stanley adopted the teaching that some folks may be born again without ever showing any signs of salvation? I was thinking I saw a quote or a clip of his from about a year ago where he said some people may be born again yet continue to live like the devil.

I know some of his teachings have certainly turned much different from how he taught early on.

We have the book which this guy in the video is referring to...the teaching is on page 126 of Stanley's book "Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure?":

To be in the "outer darkness" is to be in the kingdom of God but outside the circle of men and women whose faithfulness on this earth earned them a special rank of position of authority.

[John81 5917]

We have the book which this guy in the video is referring to...the teaching is on page 126 of Stanley's book "Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure?":

Thank you. I recall that Stanley said this statement wasn't about ME but about positions/rewards/ranking or something to that effect.

Beyond that I don't know because I've never read the book nor done any follow-up on that little I read about this back then.

[Brother Rick 244]

Outer darkenss occurs three times in the Bible, all in Matthew.

In 8:12 it's the children of the kingdom, the context is the Millennium in verse 11.

In 22:13 it's the "friend" who snuck into the wedding without a wedding garment. The context is Second Advent/Marriage Supper

In 25:30 it's the goats being cast into outer darkenss. The context is the Judgment of the Nations and the Second Advent.

So clearly whatever "outer darkness" is it has something to do with the Second Advent. If I had to guess I'd say it was the Lake of Fire.

[Wilchbla 297]

"Milennial Exclusion" - as in people during the Millennium can't go to Hell? Really?

What Joey Faust teaches is that carnal Christians will spend 1,000 years in the lake of fire being purged during the millennial kingdom. A lot of Regular Baptists teach this too. This teaching has actually been around for a while. I believe George Pember, Thomas Chalmers and Sir Robert Anderson taught this doctrine also. Edited 13 Oct 2011 by Wilchbla

[John81 5917]

What Joey Faust teaches is that carnal Christians will spend 1,000 years in the lake of fire being purged during the millennial kingdom. A lot of Regular Baptists teach this too. This teaching has actually been around for a while. I believe George Pember, Thomas Chalmers and Sir Robert Anderson taught this doctrine also.

Yes, it's not a new teaching, but rather similar to the old Roman Catholic teaching of pergatory.

[heartstrings 1252]

Is this Stanley's only false teaching or does he have more?

[Invicta 619]

Is this Stanley's only false teaching or does he have more?

Does he need more?

[heartstrings 1252]

Yes, I would like to know more because my present pastor, just last Sunday, spoke of Charles Stanley in a positive light and that concerns me.
But then my former pastor, who is IFB, considered it OK to download and "preach" the sermons of John Piper...so which is worse?

[LindaR 505]

Is the preacher on the video John Piper? If not, then who is he?

For more information on the teachings of Charles Stanley:

http://www.rapidnet....ley/general.htm

Edited 13 Oct 2011 by LindaR

[Brother Rick 244]

Yes, I would like to know more because my present pastor, just last Sunday, spoke of Charles Stanley in a positive light and that concerns me.
But then my former pastor, who is IFB, considered it OK to download and "preach" the sermons of John Piper...so which is worse?

It might be that this is Stanley only major doctrinal error. Also, what was the context of the statement your pastor made? My pastor has spoken positively of certain leaders or infuential people in other denominations, but not as a wide endorsement, only as a "they're doing right in that area" sort of thing.

[LindaR 505]

From an article on the Way of Life website about Dr. Charles Stanley:

CHARLES STANLEY: On his radio broadcast, popular Southern Baptist pastor/author Charles Stanley said that God might not send people to hell if they have never heard the gospel. Following is an extract: “…would God send somebody to hell because they did not receive Jesus whom they never heard about, never had the privilege of knowing about? And my answer is: No, he would not” (Stanley, In Touch Ministries, “Reconciling God’s Love with His Justice,” July 31, 2001). In other places during the broadcast it appears that Pastor Stanley is not sure about this matter and that he is basically agnostic about the destiny of those who have not heard the Gospel. Either way, it is a great error, because the Bible leaves no question about this. In the book of Ephesians, God describes the condition of those who are outside of Christ. They are dead in trespasses and sins (v. 1), by nature the children of wrath (v. 2), having no hope, and without God in the world (v. 12). This is the unsaved man’s condition regardless of whether or not he has heard the gospel. He is condemned already, and that is why it is so imperative that Christ’s commission be obeyed and the gospel be preached to the ends of the earth.

http://www.wayoflife.org/database/fireoutofhell.html

[John81 5917]

From an article on the Way of Life website about Dr. Charles Stanley:

CHARLES STANLEY: On his radio broadcast, popular Southern Baptist pastor/author Charles Stanley said that God might not send people to hell if they have never heard the gospel. Following is an extract: “…would God send somebody to hell because they did not receive Jesus whom they never heard about, never had the privilege of knowing about? And my answer is: No, he would not” (Stanley, In Touch Ministries, “Reconciling God’s Love with His Justice,” July 31, 2001). In other places during the broadcast it appears that Pastor Stanley is not sure about this matter and that he is basically agnostic about the destiny of those who have not heard the Gospel. Either way, it is a great error, because the Bible leaves no question about this. In the book of Ephesians, God describes the condition of those who are outside of Christ. They are dead in trespasses and sins (v. 1), by nature the children of wrath (v. 2), having no hope, and without God in the world (v. 12). This is the unsaved man’s condition regardless of whether or not he has heard the gospel. He is condemned already, and that is why it is so imperative that Christ’s commission be obeyed and the gospel be preached to the ends of the earth.

http://www.wayoflife...eoutofhell.html

Unfortunately there are a lot of pastors these days who get wishy-washy on this topic.

I've heard Stanley say this before and I don't see how that agrees with Scripture.

Stanley used to be more solid but over the years he's moved in a more liberal direction. Some people, including some pastors, don't seem to have noticed the drift.

[swathdiver 1232]

Stanley used to be more solid but over the years he's moved in a more liberal direction. Some people, including some pastors, don't seem to have noticed the drift.

I did, used to watch him with regularity after I was first saved for about 2 years. His sermons were most appreciated by me at the time. However, the more I learned the more I began to question some of his teachings. I liked the floppiness of his bible but was shocked to learn that it was not a King James! It was a NASB or something like it. Then his wife finally divorced him and by that time my sporadic watching of his sermons ended. It didn't help that his liberal son replaced him at the pulpit in too many episodes! Yuck!

I have a pile of his books that I never read. Not reading a book is alien to me, I read constantly but powers beyond my comprehension kept me away from his work and those of Rick Warren who I also bought a bunch of his garbage soon after my salvation but never read it all either. Despite trying several times, I could never get past a few days of the Purpose Driven Life; Praise God for that!!!!

It wouldn't be right to sell them; wonder if they'll leave a funny taste on marshmallows? :nuts:

[John81 5917]

I did, used to watch him with regularity after I was first saved for about 2 years. His sermons were most appreciated by me at the time. However, the more I learned the more I began to question some of his teachings. I liked the floppiness of his bible but was shocked to learn that it was not a King James! It was a NASB or something like it. Then his wife finally divorced him and by that time my sporadic watching of his sermons ended. It didn't help that his liberal son replaced him at the pulpit in too many episodes! Yuck!

I have a pile of his books that I never read. Not reading a book is alien to me, I read constantly but powers beyond my comprehension kept me away from his work and those of Rick Warren who I also bought a bunch of his garbage soon after my salvation but never read it all either. Despite trying several times, I could never get past a few days of the Purpose Driven Life; Praise God for that!!!!

It wouldn't be right to sell them; wonder if they'll leave a funny taste on marshmallows?

I have a few of Stanley's older books and one of his newer ones and there is a big difference in them. They sit collecting dust and will probably one day be discarded. As hard as it was for me (I love books!) a year or so ago I went through many of my books and cast into the garbage those that I want nothing to do with and don't believe are worthy of others reading. I had kept them for years simply because casting books into the trash somehow seems wrong. Then I heard a pastor speak on the issue and he asked what value does a book really have if it leads folks away from Christ, if it distorts the Word of God, if it contains false teaching? Are not such books trash in the truest sense and therefore don't they belong in the trash?

Good words!

[heartstrings 1252]

I have a few of Stanley's older books and one of his newer ones and there is a big difference in them. They sit collecting dust and will probably one day be discarded. As hard as it was for me (I love books!) a year or so ago I went through many of my books and cast into the garbage those that I want nothing to do with and don't believe are worthy of others reading. I had kept them for years simply because casting books into the trash somehow seems wrong. Then I heard a pastor speak on the issue and he asked what value does a book really have if it leads folks away from Christ, if it distorts the Word of God, if it contains false teaching? Are not such books trash in the truest sense and therefore don't they belong in the trash?

Good words!

So if John Piper's books contain the false teachings of Calvinism, shouldn't they be discarded as well?
My former pastor pushed some of Piper's books, be he had an "eat the meat and spit out the bones" philosophy on that.
I suppose it boils down to how serious you perceive the false teaching to be.

[LindaR 505]

So if John Piper's books contain the false teachings of Calvinism, shouldn't they be discarded as well?
My former pastor pushed some of Piper's books, be he had an "eat the meat and spit out the bones" philosophy on that.
I suppose it boils down to how serious you perceive the false teaching to be.

Any false teaching is serious, IMO. A "little white lie" is still a lie, isn't it?

[Brother Rick 244]

I think there's a difference between a doctrinal error, false doctrine, and heresy, and I think it's important to recognize the difference. If a man makes a doctrinal error, I can still read his book and glean other things from it, understanding that he's just a man and that his book isn't the word of God. Some false doctrine I can overlook (such as Calvinism) if the rest of the book can bring some good value.

Stanley's idea about Christians spending the Millennium in Hell is false doctrine. It doesn't affect the doctrine of salvation, or at least not that much. It's basically a non-eternal security scare tactic to keep people tithing. It's wrong, and it's serious, but it can be overlooked if he has some other good things to say. The question you have to ask yourself is whether or not it's worth overlooking for what other value the book may provide. Ususally there's someone else out there that's going to teach the same subject without the same problems.

This thing about people not needing to hear the Gospel to go to Heaven is flat out heresy. Why in the world should I give to missions if they're going to go to Heaven if they don't hear? That teaching directly affects doctrinal and pratical aspects of the doctrine of salvation. There's no overlooking that, it's bad heresy.

Edited 20 Oct 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Standing Firm In Christ 1303]

Doctrinal error can lead a person to hell regardless of other beliefs.

For instance.

Someone tells me that the Son of God died on the cross for my sins so that I might have eternal life.

I agree.

Then they tell me that the Son of God said that I must tithe my money to the local Church.
And that the Son of God made alcohol for a bunch of drunken party guests.


Uh-oh... big problem.

The Son of God never said that I must tithe... NEVER!
The Son of God came to seek and to save that which was lost, not to assist them in their sin of drunkenness!

So, who are they promoting in the first statement? The true Son of God? or are they presenting 'another christ' who offers eternal life? one that has not the power to save? It appears they are teaching the latter and not the former.

And if they say that the Son of God will send some saved into outer darkness, which is a part of the kingdom of God.... Uh-oh.

Doctrinal error can have one following a false christ instead of the True Christ.

Edited 20 Oct 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ