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THE "SEVEN DISPENSATIONS" VIEWED IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE


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#101 LindaR

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:28 AM

I may have posted this in another thread on Dispensationalism ...but here it is again:

An excellent book on the comparison of Dispensational Theology and Covenant Theology is a book written by Dr. Renald E. Showers:

"There Really Is A Difference: A Comparison Of Covenant and Dispensational Theology". Copyright © 1990 by The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc.

#102 John81

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 07:55 AM




:ot: Since the "will a man rob God" thread has been revived, can we keep this thread for the original purpose?

Also, could anyone possibly answer my question in the Rapture thread with regards to Dr.Jeremiah and his teaching on pre-trib/pre-mil?

Thank you!!!


Sorry we got derailed...I bear some blame on that.
I don't listen to Dr. Jeremiah....he is a Bible corrector. He can't offer anything beyond Ryrie.

I'm not sure what you mean "can't offer anything beyond Ryrie". I found Dr. Jeremiah's explanation of pre-trib/pre-mil to be easy to follow and as biblically sound as any I've ever heard. What I have read of Ryrie seemed rather confusing, and especially what I read in one section he put out it almost seemed like in the end he couldn't make up his mind.

John, first of all, I don't listen to Dr. Jeremiah. There is absolutely no power in the preaching or teaching of these Bible Correctors.
Secondly, there is a progression of knowledge to some degree or another. In my opinion, Larkin has the absolute best teaching on dispensationalism available. The only person who has surpassed Larkin is Dr. Ruckman (again, my opinion...). Scofield and Larkin are fairly close on most things, but Larkin put the effort into writing his monumental book, while Scofield put out his reference Bible.
If I remember my dispesational lineage correctly, Lewis Sperry Chafer learned from Scofield, and then Ryrie studied under Chafer. (Chafer founded Dallas Theological Seminary.) Waloord studied under Ryrie. Dake borrowed heavily from Scofield and Larkin.
Who knows were David Jeremiah got his material from....but my guess would be a combination of Scofield-Chafer-Ryrie.

Anyway, that is neither here-nor-there. They all copy from each other, and none of the modern day teachers (like MacArthur, Jeremiah, etc.) have anything of value to add that Larkin didn't cover in is book "Dispensational Truth."

I understand what you were trying to say.

What I was referring to was the pre-trib/pre-mil view, not dispensationalism. Whatever his faults or weaknesses, Dr. Jeremiah laid out a very reasonable and seemingly biblically sound case for pre-trib/pre-mil that I've not encountered with other authors/pastors.

#103 John81

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:01 AM


John:
I prefer to do my Bible study as independently as possible. Amen!! I have Larkin's book "Rightly Dividing The Word" I wonder if I should get a copy of "Dispensational Truth" before I begin my study of Eschatology? I would only use it as a reference and only if required. What's your recommendation on Larkin's book?

The problem with those books is that they are written with a disp paradigm, so cannot help with rightly dividing.

In the various threads I have challenged the disp paradigm from the Word only. The great error they all make is the refusal to understand the OT Scriptures by the NT. You CANNOT develop dispensationalism if you give priority to the teaching of Jesus & the Apostles.

This has been a difficulty in studying some such things. Many books begin with holding a particular view and then proceed to see how they can prove their view. It's far more difficult to find books which simply begin with Scripture, examine what Scripture has to say, and then look and see how that does or does not fit with various views on the matter.

For instance, if one really wants to learn about President Obama, it would do little good to study only what is written by the Democratic National Committee. We already know what they want us to think and that they will write in a manner to lead us there. Better to search out sources that are factual based, not biased based.

That said, once a thorough study has been done and the biblical foundation discovered, it can be helpful to read some of the other material for various reasons.

#104 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:38 AM





:ot: Since the "will a man rob God" thread has been revived, can we keep this thread for the original purpose?

Also, could anyone possibly answer my question in the Rapture thread with regards to Dr.Jeremiah and his teaching on pre-trib/pre-mil?

Thank you!!!


Sorry we got derailed...I bear some blame on that.
I don't listen to Dr. Jeremiah....he is a Bible corrector. He can't offer anything beyond Ryrie.

I'm not sure what you mean "can't offer anything beyond Ryrie". I found Dr. Jeremiah's explanation of pre-trib/pre-mil to be easy to follow and as biblically sound as any I've ever heard. What I have read of Ryrie seemed rather confusing, and especially what I read in one section he put out it almost seemed like in the end he couldn't make up his mind.

John, first of all, I don't listen to Dr. Jeremiah. There is absolutely no power in the preaching or teaching of these Bible Correctors.
Secondly, there is a progression of knowledge to some degree or another. In my opinion, Larkin has the absolute best teaching on dispensationalism available. The only person who has surpassed Larkin is Dr. Ruckman (again, my opinion...). Scofield and Larkin are fairly close on most things, but Larkin put the effort into writing his monumental book, while Scofield put out his reference Bible.
If I remember my dispesational lineage correctly, Lewis Sperry Chafer learned from Scofield, and then Ryrie studied under Chafer. (Chafer founded Dallas Theological Seminary.) Waloord studied under Ryrie. Dake borrowed heavily from Scofield and Larkin.
Who knows were David Jeremiah got his material from....but my guess would be a combination of Scofield-Chafer-Ryrie.

Anyway, that is neither here-nor-there. They all copy from each other, and none of the modern day teachers (like MacArthur, Jeremiah, etc.) have anything of value to add that Larkin didn't cover in is book "Dispensational Truth."


I prefer to do my Bible study as independently as possible. I have Larkin's book "Rightly Dividing The Word" I wonder if I should get a copy of "Dispensational Truth" before I begin my study of Eschatology? I would only use it as a reference and only if required. What's your recommendation on Larkin's book?

I highly recommend it. It has much more than just "dispensational" items in it.
It is basically an expanded version of "Rightly dividing the word" with tons more info and much better charts and outlines.
Of course, Larkin is a man and has some bad things in it. He corrects the KJV a couple of times, and teaches the "Nebular hypothesis" theory. Just use the old axiom "Eat the chicken and throw away the bones."

There is a free online version of it here for your perusal:
http://www.preservedwords.com/

#105 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:39 AM



John:
I prefer to do my Bible study as independently as possible. Amen!! I have Larkin's book "Rightly Dividing The Word" I wonder if I should get a copy of "Dispensational Truth" before I begin my study of Eschatology? I would only use it as a reference and only if required. What's your recommendation on Larkin's book?

The problem with those books is that they are written with a disp paradigm, so cannot help with rightly dividing.

In the various threads I have challenged the disp paradigm from the Word only. The great error they all make is the refusal to understand the OT Scriptures by the NT. You CANNOT develop dispensationalism if you give priority to the teaching of Jesus & the Apostles.

This has been a difficulty in studying some such things. Many books begin with holding a particular view and then proceed to see how they can prove their view. It's far more difficult to find books which simply begin with Scripture, examine what Scripture has to say, and then look and see how that does or does not fit with various views on the matter.

For instance, if one really wants to learn about President Obama, it would do little good to study only what is written by the Democratic National Committee. We already know what they want us to think and that they will write in a manner to lead us there. Better to search out sources that are factual based, not biased based.

That said, once a thorough study has been done and the biblical foundation discovered, it can be helpful to read some of the other material for various reasons.





:ot: Since the "will a man rob God" thread has been revived, can we keep this thread for the original purpose?

Also, could anyone possibly answer my question in the Rapture thread with regards to Dr.Jeremiah and his teaching on pre-trib/pre-mil?

Thank you!!!


Sorry we got derailed...I bear some blame on that.
I don't listen to Dr. Jeremiah....he is a Bible corrector. He can't offer anything beyond Ryrie.

I'm not sure what you mean "can't offer anything beyond Ryrie". I found Dr. Jeremiah's explanation of pre-trib/pre-mil to be easy to follow and as biblically sound as any I've ever heard. What I have read of Ryrie seemed rather confusing, and especially what I read in one section he put out it almost seemed like in the end he couldn't make up his mind.

John, first of all, I don't listen to Dr. Jeremiah. There is absolutely no power in the preaching or teaching of these Bible Correctors.
Secondly, there is a progression of knowledge to some degree or another. In my opinion, Larkin has the absolute best teaching on dispensationalism available. The only person who has surpassed Larkin is Dr. Ruckman (again, my opinion...). Scofield and Larkin are fairly close on most things, but Larkin put the effort into writing his monumental book, while Scofield put out his reference Bible.
If I remember my dispesational lineage correctly, Lewis Sperry Chafer learned from Scofield, and then Ryrie studied under Chafer. (Chafer founded Dallas Theological Seminary.) Waloord studied under Ryrie. Dake borrowed heavily from Scofield and Larkin.
Who knows were David Jeremiah got his material from....but my guess would be a combination of Scofield-Chafer-Ryrie.

Anyway, that is neither here-nor-there. They all copy from each other, and none of the modern day teachers (like MacArthur, Jeremiah, etc.) have anything of value to add that Larkin didn't cover in is book "Dispensational Truth."

I understand what you were trying to say.

What I was referring to was the pre-trib/pre-mil view, not dispensationalism. Whatever his faults or weaknesses, Dr. Jeremiah laid out a very reasonable and seemingly biblically sound case for pre-trib/pre-mil that I've not encountered with other authors/pastors.

OK

#106 Covenanter

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 01:27 PM

They all copy from each other and none of the modern day teachers (like MacArthur, Jeremiah, etc.) have anything of value to add that Larkin didn't cover in is book "Dispensational Truth."


That's a very important point - how many witnesses are there if they all copy each other ?????

#107 Invicta

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:14 PM


John:
I prefer to do my Bible study as independently as possible. Amen!! I have Larkin's book "Rightly Dividing The Word" I wonder if I should get a copy of "Dispensational Truth" before I begin my study of Eschatology? I would only use it as a reference and only if required. What's your recommendation on Larkin's book?

The problem with those books is that they are written with a disp paradigm, so cannot help with rightly dividing.

In the various threads I have challenged the disp paradigm from the Word only. The great error they all make is the refusal to understand the OT Scriptures by the NT. You CANNOT develop dispensationalism if you give priority to the teaching of Jesus & the Apostles.


The OP said that dispensationalists use the word "dispensation" in a way that is not used in scipture, if you can remember that. The discussion on tithes should be continued on the "Robbing God" thread.

Edited by Invicta, 08 March 2012 - 04:14 PM.


#108 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 06:55 PM


John:
I prefer to do my Bible study as independently as possible. Amen!! I have Larkin's book "Rightly Dividing The Word" I wonder if I should get a copy of "Dispensational Truth" before I begin my study of Eschatology? I would only use it as a reference and only if required. What's your recommendation on Larkin's book?

The problem with those books is that they are written with a disp paradigm, so cannot help with rightly dividing.

In the various threads I have challenged the disp paradigm from the Word only. The great error they all make is the refusal to understand the OT Scriptures by the NT. You CANNOT develop dispensationalism if you give priority to the teaching of Jesus & the Apostles.

The question that your view raises is this: Are the teachings of Jesus Christ directed at us?
And the answer must be a resounding "NO!"
Mt 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Therefore, the vast majority of Christ's teachings during his ministry are directed at ISRAEL. He specifically neglects the Gentile.

Hey, wait....I am a Gentile.....now what?

Well, obviously, something changed somewhere!

When we study many of the OT quotations found in the NT, some of them are direct fulfillments of prophecy. These are mainly in Matthew.
Then Paul shows that the OT sacrifices are done away with in Hebrews.
But man-oh-man - Paul is sometimes very loose and free with his use of the OT Scriptures, sometimes yanking a phrase out of a verse to prove a point....and pulling it out of context at that!

Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Here is 3 quotations - all out of context - all only partial verses - and all to prove a point that none of these verse make in the OT....
There are many others similar to this....just a small sampling.

So, apparently there is a little bit more to it than you are suggesting, Ian.

In Christ,

#109 Invicta

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 07:01 PM

Well, I believe scripture, and if Paul is quoting a verse, or part of a verse, it is in context.

Edited by Invicta, 08 March 2012 - 07:01 PM.


#110 2Tim215

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 12:07 AM

Well, I believe scripture, and if Paul is quoting a verse, or part of a verse, it is in context.


I am curious to see where Steve is leading with this, and Invicta, if you study the writings of Paul you will notice that he is not adverse to resorting to cunning to get a point across to some dimwitted followers of his time.

#111 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 08:09 AM

Invicta, are you implying that I do not believe Scripture?

Here is another example:
1 Corinthians 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

According to you, the context of the OT verse is the provision for a gospel preacher?
I don't think so. He is making an application from a principle.

All I am attempting to show here is that Ian's theory just won't work the way he wants it to. He says that we understand the OT based upon the way the NT writers quote it. The problem is that the NT writers were not opposed to making application from a verse taken out of context. Ian's theory leaves much to be desired.

Edited by Steve Schwenke, 09 March 2012 - 08:11 AM.


#112 Wilchbla

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:04 PM

The best book I know of on Dispensational Theology outside of Larkin's work is The Bible Believers Guide to Dispensationalism by David E. Walker.

#113 Invicta

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:22 PM

Mt 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Therefore, the vast majority of Christ's teachings during his ministry are directed at ISRAEL. He specifically neglects the Gentile.

Hey, wait....I am a Gentile.....now what?


That is what I have continually said, Christ confirmed the covenant with the Jews, Dan 9:27 and Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

But that doesn't mnean that the salvation of the gentiles was not in God's eternal plan.

#114 Covenanter

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:19 PM

Invicta, are you implying that I do not believe Scripture?

Here is another example:
1 Corinthians 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

According to you, the context of the OT verse is the provision for a gospel preacher?
I don't think so. He is making an application from a principle.

Searching for such applications is not a valid way of proving dispensational theology, nor of discrediting the principle of understanding the OT by the NT.

All I am attempting to show here is that Ian's theory just won't work the way he wants it to. He says that we understand the OT based upon the way the NT writers quote it. The problem is that the NT writers were not opposed to making application from a verse taken out of context. Ian's theory leaves much to be desired.

You will have to be more specific. You make remarks like that, but you do not challenge my teaching from Scripture. I am always very careful to quote Scripture to prove what I assert.



#115 Covenanter

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:36 PM



John:
I prefer to do my Bible study as independently as possible. Amen!! I have Larkin's book "Rightly Dividing The Word" I wonder if I should get a copy of "Dispensational Truth" before I begin my study of Eschatology? I would only use it as a reference and only if required. What's your recommendation on Larkin's book?

The problem with those books is that they are written with a disp paradigm, so cannot help with rightly dividing.

In the various threads I have challenged the disp paradigm from the Word only. The great error they all make is the refusal to understand the OT Scriptures by the NT. You CANNOT develop dispensationalism if you give priority to the teaching of Jesus & the Apostles.

The question that your view raises is this: Are the teachings of Jesus Christ directed at us?
And the answer must be a resounding "NO!"
Mt 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Therefore, the vast majority of Christ's teachings during his ministry are directed at ISRAEL. He specifically neglects the Gentile.

Hey, wait....I am a Gentile.....now what?

Well, obviously, something changed somewhere!

When we study many of the OT quotations found in the NT, some of them are direct fulfillments of prophecy. These are mainly in Matthew.
Then Paul shows that the OT sacrifices are done away with in Hebrews.
But man-oh-man - Paul is sometimes very loose and free with his use of the OT Scriptures, sometimes yanking a phrase out of a verse to prove a point....and pulling it out of context at that!

Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Here is 3 quotations - all out of context - all only partial verses - and all to prove a point that none of these verse make in the OT....
There are many others similar to this....just a small sampling.

So, apparently there is a little bit more to it than you are suggesting, Ian.

In Christ,

Those verses show that Christ is there in OT prophecy, explicitly in Psalm 22 & implicitly in Isaiah 8. You need to find verses in the NT that prove the disp paradigm, not verses that have nothing to to with disp theory.




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