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rstrats

Matthew 12:40

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Our pastor recently began a series of Sunday school (adult) lessons on the subject of creation and related matters. As our pastor points out, if we reject, twist or try to make the first several chapters of Genesis say something other than what's plainly stated we open the entire Word of God to disrepute. If the creation account doesn't mean what it says that means it's either just a fictional story told to convey a point or it's an outright lie. Either way, if the creation account and the first 11 chapters of Genesis can't be taken as fact then that means the Bible is corrupt and so is Christianity.

Too many Christians don't realize just how much they have been continually fed the lie of evolution and the denigration of biblical creation through schools, TV, movies, the news, books, etc. Virtually everywhere a person looks the message of evolution is promoted, from the classroom to cartoons, children's movies to the Discovery Channel, popular sit-coms to dramas. Perhaps if Christians spent less time in worldly entertainment and more time in the Word they could understand the truth and reality of the creation account as presented in Scripture.

I know some Christians who are solid in so many areas yet in this area they seem to think it's not that important. Time and again I've heard them say it really doesn't matter if God took a literal six days to create everything or it took 6,000 or 6,000,000 years. Well, if we are going to declare Scripture is trustworthy and true, given to us by God Himself, then it matters a great deal!

It's a shame to see some Christians spend so much time and fight so much to try and make the Bible fit their ideas of how things "really" must have been with dinosaurs, what was or wasn't before the creation, how the Big Bang and evolution can be true as part of creation, etc.

God created time, which we see established as evening and morning being one day. In six of those days God created everything. So simple yet so many want it to say something else, mean something else, or to have some hidden "other" somewhere between the verses.

If we can trust God to save us by the odd to the world means He chose, then surely we can trust God that His account of creation is trustworthy too.

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if WE CAN'T TRUST THE LITERAL CHARACTER OF THE CREATION STORY, THEN WE CAN THROW OUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, BECAUSE THERE (sorry for shouting), we are told "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Ex 20:11). So throw it all out. Of course many would like to throw out the commandments of God-even though the Sabbath no longer has power over believers, yet for Israel, it did and one reason was that God set the seventh-day rest based on HIS seventh-day rest from creation. Hence, the seven-day WEEK is also, then, based on a lie, because it is based on God's timing according to the creation.  

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With the new year half over, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights when He knew that it would only be for 2 nights. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.

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7 hours ago, rstrats said:

With the new year half over, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights when He knew that it would only be for 2 nights. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.

Hmmmn: please excuse my apparent clueless-ness here, but as I see it:

1) The OP here was yours, not someone here claiming such idiomatic usage. Why should we source it???

2) Maybe nobody has sought to document such because they don't believe such and therefore can't bring themselves to the point of being bothered with the research???

3) If the Lord had said 3 days, the idiom argument might has some valid consideration. However, it was Christ Jesus who said 3 days and 3 nights. So seeking to apply the above referenced logic to justify a Friday crucifixion runs as follows:

      Crucified on Fri pm (2nd half of 6th day) and buried (for sake of illustration) @ 5:59pm --- 1 day and counting.   In tomb Fri pm and Sat am (the evening and the morning were the seventh day), now 2 days and one night - and counting. Resurrected at 6:01am (again, for sake of illustration) Sun am - so the evening and morning of the first day of the week now gives us -------------------  3 days :clap: but only 2 nights :(.  Remember, it was Jesus who was so picky as to distinguish 3 days and 3 nights for Jonas and again 3 days and 3 nights for Himself.

    

 

Conclusion: Wed or Thurs crucifixion  may be "debatable" but to have a Friday crucifixion requires either a fallible Scripture or an ignorant Jesus.

With that in mind, I (personally) don't care if there is such an idiomatic usage or not since Scripture shows that Jesus was NOT speaking idiomatically or else didn't know exactly what He was saying.

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On 7/16/2016 at 3:53 AM, rstrats said:

With the new year half over, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights when He knew that it would only be for 2 nights. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.

Since this topic has such seeming importance to you, about the best I can do is refer you to one of the many excellent Bible programs that have wonderful search features. If you feel frustration because no one has been able to source the OP, then you should then source it yourself. Once you finish it would be only right to come back and tell us your results.

The fact that Jesus said it and the Holy Spirit inspired the wording and God saw fit to preserve it for all mankind, is good enough for me. Here we can read the words of God himself and I don't feel that He needs a human interpreter, He said what he meant and he meant what he said.

 Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I guess my thought patterns are simple enough that I trust God to be able to impart His Word to me in a manner that I can understand it.

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On 1/17/2013 at 3:36 PM, rstrats said:

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutey doesn't/can't include at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?

As you probably know, Jewish time keeping is done differently than Western time keeping.
A 24 hour day (to Western eyes) would start at midnight (12 am) and run through the next 24 hour period until 11:59 pm.
However, Jewish time is (and was) kept by the sun-down to sun-up to sun-down (divided by daytime hours and nighttime hours)
daytime hours begin with dawn (and vary throughout the year according to season) 
daytime hours end with sundown (again varies in time because of seasonal sunset at different times)
Sundown BEGINS the next day (Jewish time)... for instance today (July 17, 2016) in Israel, it is 4:44am there while it is 9:44pm (here in Ohio).
The sun "set" in Israel 4 hours and 44 minutes ago, and thus (to them) a "new day" began (at nightfall).

In the first century, they would have divided the night into "watches" as well.
In one article I read, it stated the first watch would be from sundown until 9pm, the 2nd watch would be from 9pm until midnight, the 3rd watch would be from midnoght until 3am, the fourth watch would be from 3am until sunrise.

IF you require further knowledge of how PART of a day is considered (by Orthodox Jews) to be "a day" you CAN find such writing stemming from 1st/2nd century writers...I suggest you start with the "Mishnah" and "Tamid" or Talmudic writing. Later writing (the Gemara are post 500 AD and are basically additional commentary on the Misrah so you won't likely find what you are looking for there but who knows???)
I have NOT (personally) read these, NOR do I intend to, since they are written by men who did not believe Jesus was their Messiah, it is "Rabbinic literature", and of course, not on par with the Bible since they have been blinded and "missed their time of visitation".

I do not know (exactly) what you want the information for... out of curiosity... to settle an argument with a "6th day crucifixion" proponent, or to make an argument here regarding Jesus' death/burial/resurrection???
Whatever the case... I can only tell you that since you asked the question in 2013 and are still expecting an answer HERE (?) It would be safe to say that none of us here are inclined to read Talmudic writing, nor do we desire to.

There IS a cult movement afoot called the "Hebrew Roots" movement. (HRM for short) It is very dangerous grounds to MIX talmudic writing into or alongside actual scripture, since it's obviously written by those who have rejected Jesus as Messiah, and as such it is most assuredly NOT on par with scripture in any way. (and miing talmudic writing with actual scripture is only PART of the problems the HRM has)
But if you desire to find supposed 1st/2nd century "Jewish" writing which gives reasons why a certain part of a day is considered a day, talmudic writing is where you will likely find it.
The Mishnah is (supposedly) oral rules/customs written down. BUT keep in mind this wasn't written until the 1st and 2nd century... AFTER the cross, and AFTER they had rejected Christ as Messiah.

Before I am accused of being antisemitic, I can assure you I am NOT. I can also assure you that I do not buy into the HRM cult's theories and demonic teaching that the "Jewish people" are supposedly not the "Jewish people". (yes the HRM IS that messed up)
I've come across several HRM cult members who actually THROW OUT Paul's writing and hold to the erroneous belief that THEY themselves are somehow the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" spoken of in Matt.15:24, et al. They believe Jesus died on the cross ONLY for "them" and it is a VERY DANGEROUS cult which throws out MOST of the new testament and ADDS in talmudic writing.
OBVIOUSLY, anyone who has read past that point (Matthew) understands that (corporate) Israel rejected Jesus (*** MY note: the final rejection coming at the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 in MY opinion).
HOWEVER, the Jews are only blind IN PART until the fulness of the gentiles be come in (Rom. 11:25). There are (and have been) MANY Jewish people who have (and will continue to) come to saving belief in Jesus as savior throughout the entire age of grace. Also, God's word says there is NO difference between us during the age of grace (in respect to the offer of salvation during the age of grace)
Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

So again... unsure why you want this information, but since I am not inclined to read talmudic writing... I suggest you can research it for yourself.
If you ask a practicing (non-Messianic) Jew, you will also likely find the answers vary widely as well... some hold that the talmudic writing are as inspired as the Torah (sadly), and others do not. But either way... 1st and 2nd century time-keeping customs can LIKELY (no guarantee) be found in the "Mishnah" and in other talmudic writings if you are dead-set on finding such writing (for whatever reason).
And again I want to repeat this warning: Talmudic writings are NOT on par with scripture which is why Bible-believers don't generally read it, nor desire to read it!


 

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20 hours ago, Ronda said:

As you probably know, Jewish time keeping is done differently than Western time keeping.
A 24 hour day (to Western eyes) would start at midnight (12 am) and run through the next 24 hour period until 11:59 pm.
However, Jewish time is (and was) kept by the sun-down to sun-up to sun-down (divided by daytime hours and nighttime hours)
daytime hours begin with dawn (and vary throughout the year according to season) 
daytime hours end with sundown (again varies in time because of seasonal sunset at different times)
Sundown BEGINS the next day (Jewish time)... for instance today (July 17, 2016) in Israel, it is 4:44am there while it is 9:44pm (here in Ohio).
The sun "set" in Israel 4 hours and 44 minutes ago, and thus (to them) a "new day" began (at nightfall).

In the first century, they would have divided the night into "watches" as well.
In one article I read, it stated the first watch would be from sundown until 9pm, the 2nd watch would be from 9pm until midnight, the 3rd watch would be from midnoght until 3am, the fourth watch would be from 3am until sunrise.

IF you require further knowledge of how PART of a day is considered (by Orthodox Jews) to be "a day" you CAN find such writing stemming from 1st/2nd century writers...I suggest you start with the "Mishnah" and "Tamid" or Talmudic writing. Later writing (the Gemara are post 500 AD and are basically additional commentary on the Misrah so you won't likely find what you are looking for there but who knows???)
I have NOT (personally) read these, NOR do I intend to, since they are written by men who did not believe Jesus was their Messiah, it is "Rabbinic literature", and of course, not on par with the Bible since they have been blinded and "missed their time of visitation".

I do not know (exactly) what you want the information for... out of curiosity... to settle an argument with a "6th day crucifixion" proponent, or to make an argument here regarding Jesus' death/burial/resurrection???
Whatever the case... I can only tell you that since you asked the question in 2013 and are still expecting an answer HERE (?) It would be safe to say that none of us here are inclined to read Talmudic writing, nor do we desire to.

There IS a cult movement afoot called the "Hebrew Roots" movement. (HRM for short) It is very dangerous grounds to MIX talmudic writing into or alongside actual scripture, since it's obviously written by those who have rejected Jesus as Messiah, and as such it is most assuredly NOT on par with scripture in any way. (and miing talmudic writing with actual scripture is only PART of the problems the HRM has)
But if you desire to find supposed 1st/2nd century "Jewish" writing which gives reasons why a certain part of a day is considered a day, talmudic writing is where you will likely find it.
The Mishnah is (supposedly) oral rules/customs written down. BUT keep in mind this wasn't written until the 1st and 2nd century... AFTER the cross, and AFTER they had rejected Christ as Messiah.

Before I am accused of being antisemitic, I can assure you I am NOT. I can also assure you that I do not buy into the HRM cult's theories and demonic teaching that the "Jewish people" are supposedly not the "Jewish people". (yes the HRM IS that messed up)
I've come across several HRM cult members who actually THROW OUT Paul's writing and hold to the erroneous belief that THEY themselves are somehow the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" spoken of in Matt.15:24, et al. They believe Jesus died on the cross ONLY for "them" and it is a VERY DANGEROUS cult which throws out MOST of the new testament and ADDS in talmudic writing.
OBVIOUSLY, anyone who has read past that point (Matthew) understands that (corporate) Israel rejected Jesus (*** MY note: the final rejection coming at the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 in MY opinion).
HOWEVER, the Jews are only blind IN PART until the fulness of the gentiles be come in (Rom. 11:25). There are (and have been) MANY Jewish people who have (and will continue to) come to saving belief in Jesus as savior throughout the entire age of grace. Also, God's word says there is NO difference between us during the age of grace (in respect to the offer of salvation during the age of grace)
Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

So again... unsure why you want this information, but since I am not inclined to read talmudic writing... I suggest you can research it for yourself.
If you ask a practicing (non-Messianic) Jew, you will also likely find the answers vary widely as well... some hold that the talmudic writing are as inspired as the Torah (sadly), and others do not. But either way... 1st and 2nd century time-keeping customs can LIKELY (no guarantee) be found in the "Mishnah" and in other talmudic writings if you are dead-set on finding such writing (for whatever reason).
And again I want to repeat this warning: Talmudic writings are NOT on par with scripture which is why Bible-believers don't generally read it, nor desire to read it!

We know exactly how long a day was in NT times.  John 11:9. 

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In the four gospels dates are not given for Jesus death. 

We have the High Sabbath which was Passover and Sabbath. We guess there was a preparation day between the two Sabbaths giving us three days and three nights.

Jesus died at the end of the High Sabbath's preparation day. = start or 0

The High Sabbath = 1st night and 1st day

The weekly or normal Sabbath's preparation = 2nd night and 2nd day

The weekly Sabbath = 3rd night and 3rd day

First day of the week, Sunday, Jesus rose from the dead

The Scriptures do not give us a list of weekly days and for some reason the men wrote it vaguely.  Personally I think it is written vaguely  to demand faith that Jesus was in the grave 3 nights and days.  

 

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On 7/18/2016 at 6:42 PM, Invicta said:

We know exactly how long a day was in NT times.  John 11:9

This is not the question the OP was asking... he wanted extra-Biblical (1st/2nd century) writing. I suggested where he MIGHT find it. Not that I (myself) would recommend reading it. 

 

On 7/19/2016 at 2:00 PM, MountainChristian said:

The Scriptures do not give us a list of weekly days and for some reason the men wrote it vaguely.  Personally I think it is written vaguely  to demand faith that Jesus was in the grave 3 nights and days.  

Amen!

 

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On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 8:55 AM, Jim_Alaska said:
On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 5:53 AM, rstrats said:

 

 

Ukulelemike,
re:  "What, exactly, are you looking for...?
 
 
The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".  However, there are some who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and resurrected on the first day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.   But this period allows for only 2 night times to be involved. To reconcile this discrepancy some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic language.  I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
This topic is essentially directed to any folks who think that it was common at the time to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have taken place.   I'm simply looking for examples to support it's commonality.  

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If I understand correctly, you're looking for sources that explain the Jewish view and/or acceptance that a day and night don't have to be 24 hours? 

I know that Mark Robinson (of Jewish Awareness Ministries) holds that view. 

We had a similar discussion about this earlier this year...starting with this post...

http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/20690-baptist-church-sign-heresies/#comment-419968

 

Edited by No Nicolaitans

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rstrats, here is another thing to think about for the 72 hours Jesus was dead. In Acts 2:31, Peter said Jesus' flesh never deteriorated in death. Jesus wasn't embalmed so how did his flesh remain fresh? 

Paul said our bodies will see corruption in 1 Corinthians 15:54, so we know something odd happened for the 3 days Jesus was dead.  

 

 

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On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 7:39 PM, Ronda said:

Ronda,

re:  "This is not the question the OP was asking... he wanted extra-Biblical (1st/2nd century) writing."

Actually, scriptural examples will also be fine.

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 7:39 PM, Ronda said:

 

 

 

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On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 10:27 PM, MountainChristian said:

MountainChristian,

re:  "rstrats, here is another thing to think about for the 72 hours Jesus was dead."

 

That's would be an issue for a different topic. Perhaps you could start one.

 

 

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 9:58 AM, No Nicolaitans said:

re:  "If I understand correctly..."

I'm afraid that you don't.

 

Edited by rstrats

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According to Genesis 1, evening was the beginning of the day. 
 

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:13  And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Genesis 1:19  And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Genesis 1:23  And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Genesis 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

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I think it amazing that this thread has gone on since 2013; four years to try to determine what three days means.  :4_6_2v:

I'm a simple minded guy and believe that the Bible was written so that even I can understand it. In that case why would I want to look for extra-Biblical sources for what God plainly says.

1. God has written me a love letter; would He write it in language that I can't or don't understand?

 2. Was the Bible only written to the Jews so that people had to be Jews to understand their measurement of time?
 

I don't mean this in a contentious manner, but as I look through four years of posts and replies these thoughts come to mind.

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On 8/19/2017 at 6:20 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

re:  "I think it amazing that this thread has gone on since 2013; four years to try to determine what three days means. "

That's an issue for a different topic.  For the purpose of this one, I'm simply looking for examples from the 1st century or before where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the day time or no part of the night time could occur. 

 

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Since it has again been awhile, someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is using common Jewish idiomatic/figure of speech/colloquial language may know of some writing as requested in the OP.

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Many scriptures mention the third day as

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

It also says Three days and three nights in the earth  Remember that the body was put in the tomb as the Sabbath was approaching  (twilight")  72 hours later would be our Saturday evening at the same time.  The women went to the tomb towards the end of the Sabbath

We are also told he would rise after three days.  These periods must all be the same.  It is long past my bedtime so I will leave you to look up the references.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Invicta said:

 

Invicta,

Since you're not a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate you probably won't know of any examples.

 

 

 

 

Edited by rstrats

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19 hours ago, rstrats said:

Invicta,

Since you're not a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate you probably won't know of any examples.

I don't need any examples I just need the bible. But you can give them if you wish.

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2 hours ago, Invicta said:

 

Invicta,
re:  "I don't need any examples I just need the bible."
I realize that you don't need examples since you're not a believer in a 6th day of the week crucifixion.  
 
 
re:   "But you can give them if you wish."
I wish I could, but so far no one has provided any.

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