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Eric Stahl

Pre Tribulation Rapture Of The Church

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Pre Tribulation Rapture

           

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

(((The church age saints will not go through the tribulation)))

 

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

2 Peter 3:10-14

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

 

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

(((Why)))

 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

(((So)))

 

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

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(((The church age saints will not go through the tribulation)))

 

 

 

What world are you living in?

 

Have you ever read church history?  Have you ever read Foxe's Actes and Monuments, of the millions murdered in the most dreadful circumstances.  I recently received an email from an American missionary pastor in France where he said that a family from the Cenral African Republic in their church Had been reunited with their three children after seven years. On the day the children arrived in Paris in April, an Evangelical church in the town where the children had been living, was attacked and seven Christians were killed.  Would you like to go to the Central African Republic and tell those Christians that they are not going through tribulation?

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What world are you living in?

 

Have you ever read church history?  Have you ever read Foxe's Actes and Monuments, of the millions murdered in the most dreadful circumstances.  I recently received an email from an American missionary pastor in France where he said that a family from the Cenral African Republic in their church Had been reunited with their three children after seven years. On the day the children arrived in Paris in April, an Evangelical church in the town where the children had been living, was attacked and seven Christians were killed.  Would you like to go to the Central African Republic and tell those Christians that they are not going through tribulation?

 

People of every age and era suffer tribulation, and certainly will until the end of time (John 16:33).  However, what's being referred to in the OP is the Great Tribulation (Matt 24:21-22, 29; Mark 13:24) where the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements are poured out on the earth (Rev 5-10).

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(((The church age saints will not go through the tribulation)))

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
Literally just as the Bible says will happen.

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People of every age and era suffer tribulation, and certainly will until the end of time (John 16:33).  However, what's being referred to in the OP is the Great Tribulation (Matt 24:21-22, 29; Mark 13:24) where the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements are poured out on the earth (Rev 5-10).

 

I cannot agree with you.  Great tribulation in the gospels refers to the tribulation on the Jews which began during the Roman war and continues today.  Great tribulation in Revelation refers to tribulation on the church by Rome pagan and Rome papal through the centuries.

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1 Thessalonians 4:13-17  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
Literally just as the Bible says will happen.

 

 

I don't see you post has any relevance.

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I cannot agree with you.  Great tribulation in the gospels refers to the tribulation on the Jews which began during the Roman war and continues today.  Great tribulation in Revelation refers to tribulation on the church by Rome pagan and Rome papal through the centuries.

 

Agree to disagree I suppose.  The Great Tribulation is a worldwide event in which no flesh would survive if Jesus didn't return and is something so terrible that no one can fathom what it will be like (see Scripture quotes from previous post plus Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:7).  Last I checked (which was about 2 min ago) the world population has grown from 1 billion to 7 billion in the last two hundred years, holding steady at a 1.2% growth rate.  That doesn't sound like Tribulation-level death to me.  Also, when I consider the persecutions, genocides, an natural disasters that have happened over the course of history, I can't say that today is any worse than 1000 B.C.  I mean...there's no mass army banging down my door to kill my children like in Moses' day...I haven't seen numerous stars (meteors?) fall to the earth or the mountains and islands move as described in Revelation 6 which describes the beginning of the Great Tribulation.  You really have to take a strong allegorical approach to Scripture to come away with the notion that we're living in the Great Tribulation.  I take a plain reading myself.

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Agree to disagree I suppose.  The Great Tribulation is a worldwide event in which no flesh would survive if Jesus didn't return and is something so terrible that no one can fathom what it will be like (see Scripture quotes from previous post plus Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:7).  Last I checked (which was about 2 min ago) the world population has grown from 1 billion to 7 billion in the last two hundred years, holding steady at a 1.2% growth rate.  That doesn't sound like Tribulation-level death to me.  Also, when I consider the persecutions, genocides, an natural disasters that have happened over the course of history, I can't say that today is any worse than 1000 B.C.  I mean...there's no mass army banging down my door to kill my children like in Moses' day...I haven't seen numerous stars (meteors?) fall to the earth or the mountains and islands move as described in Revelation 6 which describes the beginning of the Great Tribulation.  You really have to take a strong allegorical approach to Scripture to come away with the notion that we're living in the Great Tribulation.  I take a plain reading myself.

 

It is the whole preterist argument reemerging. I have read with an open mind the postings (maybe all of them on here supporting that view) and can't for the life of me fathom how these obviously learned and intelligent preterist brethren (forum members here) can buy into it.

 

I am no rocket surgeon, but am of reasonable intelligence and the mechanics simply do not add up even remotely.

 

Anyway, I SAY it before and I will SAID it again: if our preterist brethren want to stay after the rapture, have at it, but I am going...PERIOD.

 

Hope you have been watching all the discovery channel "survivalist, build your own bunker" type shows cause you fellas are going to need that info badly.

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The man who lead my father to Christ was a primitive Baptist. He believed Jesus literally spoke in Olde English and was a preterist. When my dad presented him with Biblical evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture he simply said, "look, I'm a simple man. This is what my daddy's daddy taught him, it's what my daddy taught me and that's what I was raised to believe". I've yet to meet a preterist who actually offers any sort of proof text for their eschatalogical viewpoint. 

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Re 9:13 ¶ And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Re 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Re 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Re 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Re 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Re 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Re 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Re 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Re 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
 
That has no happened yet, but it will happen in the future, after the rapture, its call the Tribulation, & the 2nd half of the 3 & 1/2 years will be very bad, & nothing like it has ever happened before man's eyes.

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I think if more Christians would study the book of Revelation and try and visualize what the tribulation will be like, we would be all the more on fire for witnessing to the lost. I cannot even begin to comprehend the horror and devastation those people will face. When I think of just the chaos that will ensue the moment the rapture takes place. Pregnant women suddenly with empty wombs. Unmanned vehicles with lost passengers still on board. Doctors gone missing in the middle of a life-saving surgery. The death toll of that alone should be catastrophic. Then the emotional fallout once people try and sort out what happened. Then, of course, the reign of the antichrist and all of the catastrophic events that will take place during that time. It will be so awful.

Edited by JimsHelpmeet

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If you, like me believe that the church is the bride of Christ, made up of born again Bible believing Christians,

Then the church will not go through the tribulation. Why?

 

For Christ to send his bride through the tribulation would be spousal abuse! :bleh:

 

 

 

 

Dr. Roberson

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From the "Israel Today" thread, page 3.

 

 

So we have passed the time of trouble, what, 2,000 years ago, but have not yet entered into the NH&NE? Just making sure I understand what you are saying. If I am mistaken, please let me know.

 

 

Yes. The "great tribulation" was suffered by the generation that rejected its Messiah. That, of course is not the end of all tribulation. Believers suffer tribulation from unbelievers - as Jesus warned in John 16, & Paul also warned.

 

The tribulation & trials suffered by believers is not due to God's wrath - that is reserved for the ungodly. Note the way Paul carefully explains in 2 Thes.  Believers suffer persecution, but the persecutors suffer everlasting destruction.

1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

That persecution/tribulation suffered by believers is NOT the wrath of God. We are saved - we will not suffer wrath.

1 Thes. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

Note how Paul refers to the judgment of the Jews who rejected their Messiah, & the Gospel:

1 Thes. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

I have often seen 1 T 1:10 used as a proof text that believers will not suffer in the great tribulation, because they are delivered us from the wrath to come (which is wrong equated to the great tribulation) by the supposed rapture. No. We are delivered from wrath by the cross. 

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I cannot agree with you.  Great tribulation in the gospels refers to the tribulation on the Jews which began during the Roman war and continues today.  Great tribulation in Revelation refers to tribulation on the church by Rome pagan and Rome papal through the centuries.

 

I cannot agree with you, nor with those who accuse you of "Preterism."

 

The great tribulation was suffered by the generation of Jews who rejected their Messiah. Any tribulation suffered by Jews after that is evil persecution, NOT continued affliction by God. See 1 Thes. 2 - the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

Succeeding generations of Jews are in exactly the same position as other unbelievers - called to salvation by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who repent are welcomed into the fold & numbered with all God's people.

 

Rev. 5:And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

That status - kings and priests - is the present status of God's people, as John said earlier, quoting Moses & Peter:

 

Rev. 1:And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Exo. 19:Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

 

1 Peter 2:But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

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If you, like me believe that the church is the bride of Christ, made up of born again Bible believing Christians,

Then the church will not go through the tribulation. Why?

 

For Christ to send his bride through the tribulation would be spousal abuse! :bleh:

 

 

 

 

Dr. Roberson

 

So sad you believe that,  Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation.

 

I recently had an email from an American missionary pastor in France which said to of his members from Central African Republic were reunited with their three children in France after seven years,  On the day the children arrived in France a church in the city where the children had lived with their uncle,  had been attacked and seven Christians were killed. Would you liked to go to the C.A.R. and tell that church it won't go through tribulation?  Or go back in time to the Hugenots who at one time were nearly 48% of the population in France but due to the persecutions against them were practically wiped out?  If you are saved you will one day have to meet these souls and tell them the did not go through great tribulation.

 9 ¶  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
Henry Grattan Guinness wrote in  History Unveiling Prophecy:
 

I left Paris, where I had been labouring in the Gospel, at the

outbreak of the Franco-German war in July, 1870. It was in the light

of the German bombardment of that city, of the ring of fire which

surrounded it, and of the burning of the Tuileries, that I began to read

with interest and understanding the prophecies of Daniel and the

Apocalypse.

 

 

 

From Paris he went to Madrid in the same year, and was present when the Spanish republican government opened the site of the Quemadero to drive a new road through, he was there.

 

When the Quemadero was opened at Madrid in 1870, and the ashes of the martyrs who hadbeen burned by the Inquisition brought to light, we were present, and

saw that thick bank of human remains, and stood breast deep in the ashes. We have seen in Mexico skeletons of victims of the Inquisition who had been buried alive; have visited the Inquisition in Rome; have seen its prisons, and conversed with its Inquisitors. Cold blooded tribunal! 

 

 

 

He collected some of these remains, and in one of a series of lectures, later incorporated into his Book, Romanism and the Reformation. he laid those remains on the table.Writing on the same subject in his history of Rome in the form of a poem, he wrote, "Tell me thou murderess foul, what mean these bones?"  = The City of the seven hills,  

 

THE WITNESSES SILENCED

The Inquisition continued its career of persecution under its forty-four inquisitors-general till 1820, when it was finally suppressed. But as early as the Lateran Council in 1514. the whole of the prereformation witnesses to the gospel in France, Spain, Piedmont, Italy and Bohemia, by means of the sword, the rack, and the stake, had been crushed and silenced. In England the Lollards were extinct. None remained to witness to New Testament truth. The orator of the session, ascending the pulpit, addressed to the assembled members of the Lateran Council, the memorable exclamation of triumph :—"There is an end of resistance to the Papal rule and religion; opposers there exist no more."

 

 

You can sit in your comfortable air conditioned, centrally heated churches, but one day you will meet these martyrs and you can tell them the didn't go through great tribulation.

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There seems to be a misunderstanding, perhaps-no one is disputing that the church has gone through great persecution throughout its history, and continues to today, (except in America, where we tend to use our freedom of religion to be lazy and design versions of it to suit our individual desires).

 

But, there is a difference between great tribulation and THE Great tribulation. THAT tribulation will be world-wide-all will be effected by it, in one way or another. Personally, I believe that we will go through it until just prior to the wrath of God being poured out, but that's not the point of my comment here and now. There has always been tribulation and persecution-but then, it will be something much more organized and global, with a religion at its forefront, and people will be involved in it willingly, believeing a lie, thinking they do God service.

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There seems to be a misunderstanding, perhaps-no one is disputing that the church has gone through great persecution throughout its history, and continues to today, (except in America, where we tend to use our freedom of religion to be lazy and design versions of it to suit our individual desires).

 

But, there is a difference between great tribulation and THE Great tribulation. THAT tribulation will be world-wide-all will be effected by it, in one way or another. 

 

Right. There is a difference between tribulation (even that which is great) and The Great Tribulation. Just like there is a difference between a savior (one who has rescued another) and The Savior.

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I was going to reply and point out the misunderstanding, but looks like Ukulelemike and Salyan beat me to it.

 

I would like to recommend some good books to you: "Things to come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. One of the bests!

 

If you can find it: "Jesus is coming again" by Blackthorn, first name escapes me at the moment. "Understanding the End Times" by Paul Chappell.

Tim LeHay also has two good books, one on Revelations the other on the Rapture. David Jeremiah also has some good books "The Writing On The Wall" and "What in the world is going on" "Escape the coming Armageddon" and more.

 

 

This thread started as a lesson on the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the church, not to be confused with the current persecution of Christians in other lands. What they are going through is horrible but nothing compared to what will happen after the church is raptured out to meet with Jesus in the air.  

 

My position on the mater is this: Knowing that what is going to happen after the rapture will be far far worse than what is going on now, shouldn't we be that much more motivated to go and tell the gospel??

 

 

Dr. Roberson

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I was going to reply and point out the misunderstanding, but looks like Ukulelemike and Salyan beat me to it.

 

I would like to recommend some good books to you: "Things to come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. One of the bests!

 

If you can find it: "Jesus is coming again" by Blackthorn, first name escapes me at the moment. "Understanding the End Times" by Paul Chappell.

Tim LeHay also has two good books, one on Revelations the other on the Rapture. David Jeremiah also has some good books "The Writing On The Wall" and "What in the world is going on" "Escape the coming Armageddon" and more.

 

 

This thread started as a lesson on the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the church, not to be confused with the current persecution of Christians in other lands. What they are going through is horrible but nothing compared to what will happen after the church is raptured out to meet with Jesus in the air.  

 

My position on the mater is this: Knowing that what is going to happen after the rapture will be far far worse than what is going on now, shouldn't we be that much more motivated to go and tell the gospel??

 

 

Dr. Roberson

I know some people don't like Dr. David Jeremiah, but I read a book of his and heard a sermon series on this topic on the radio a few years ago, and the way he put it all together and explained it was the best and easiest to grasp I've ever encountered.

 

No doubt, we should be very motivated to spread the Gospel, give generously to missionaries, and make disciples.

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To All,

 

John 16:7-8

 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6-12

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

 

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

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To All,

 

John 16:7-8

 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:6-12

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

 

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

That's another point of disagreement among many. Some say the Holy Ghost will be totally taken from the earth while others teach only the restraining influence of the Holy Ghost will be removed, but the Holy Ghost will remain, still sealing and infilling those who come to Christ during the tribulation period.

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That's another point of disagreement among many. Some say the Holy Ghost will be totally taken from the earth while others teach only the restraining influence of the Holy Ghost will be removed, but the Holy Ghost will remain, still sealing and infilling those who come to Christ during the tribulation period.

During the Old Testament times the Holy Spirit came upon men for a purpose but left them again ussualy. I believe it will be like that during Israel's 70th week of years.

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During the Old Testament times the Holy Spirit came upon men for a purpose but left them again ussualy. I believe it will be like that during Israel's 70th week of years.

The Holy Ghost also remained with some, but that was under the Old Covenant. Those born again during the tribulation are under the New Covenant. When one is born again in Christ they are sealed with the Holy Ghost and He indwells them.

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