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Eric Stahl

Pre Tribulation Rapture Of The Church

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I would stick to Paul's Epistles concerning the Church, the Bride of Christ. In three places Paul states that he
is the Apostle to the Gentiles - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
God is not finished with true genetic Israel; Paul devotes three chapters in Romans stating this very fact. Israel (ie: Jews), the "adulterous wife of Jehovah" will go through the Great Tribulation.
"The day of Jacob's trouble" is when Israel will be greatly tested for 3 1/2 years during what we call the Great Tribulation. In Revelation, John accounts for this period in days, weeks, and years.
So when you read the Hebrew Epistle of Peter, keep in mind that he is talking about the end of the current world and the creation of a NEW world where righteousness dwells and the Devil is no more.

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So sad you believe that,  Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation.

 

I recently had an email from an American missionary pastor in France which said to of his members from Central African Republic were reunited with their three children in France after seven years,  On the day the children arrived in France a church in the city where the children had lived with their uncle,  had been attacked and seven Christians were killed. Would you liked to go to the C.A.R. and tell that church it won't go through tribulation?  Or go back in time to the Hugenots who at one time were nearly 48% of the population in France but due to the persecutions against them were practically wiped out?  If you are saved you will one day have to meet these souls and tell them the did not go through great tribulation.

 9 ¶  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
Henry Grattan Guinness wrote in  History Unveiling Prophecy:
 

 

From Paris he went to Madrid in the same year, and was present when the Spanish republican government opened the site of the Quemadero to drive a new road through, he was there.

 

 

He collected some of these remains, and in one of a series of lectures, later incorporated into his Book, Romanism and the Reformation. he laid those remains on the table.Writing on the same subject in his history of Rome in the form of a poem, he wrote, "Tell me thou murderess foul, what mean these bones?"  = The City of the seven hills,  

 

 

You can sit in your comfortable air conditioned, centrally heated churches, but one day you will meet these martyrs and you can tell them the didn't go through great tribulation.

 

Please point out the one, or ones that stated, denied, that the martyrs you spoke of did not go though persecution or tribulations?  

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The Book, "Things to Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost is an excellent book that shows the different beliefs concerning the Great Tribulation.  Dr. Pentecost was the president of Dallas Theological Seminary (Or is it now "cemetery") I believe it is still available.  He is called an "expert" of Eschatology.  A very good book to keep in your library.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited: had wrong title for the book.

Edited by irishman

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I was going to reply and point out the misunderstanding, but looks like Ukulelemike and Salyan beat me to it.

 

I would like to recommend some good books to you: "Things to come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. One of the bests!

 

If you can find it: "Jesus is coming again" by Blackthorn, first name escapes me at the moment. "Understanding the End Times" by Paul Chappell.

Tim LeHay also has two good books, one on Revelations the other on the Rapture. David Jeremiah also has some good books "The Writing On The Wall" and "What in the world is going on" "Escape the coming Armageddon" and more.

 

 

This thread started as a lesson on the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the church, not to be confused with the current persecution of Christians in other lands. What they are going through is horrible but nothing compared to what will happen after the church is raptured out to meet with Jesus in the air.  

 

My position on the mater is this: Knowing that what is going to happen after the rapture will be far far worse than what is going on now, shouldn't we be that much more motivated to go and tell the gospel??

 

 

Dr. Roberson

That last paragraph is all-important, regardless of our views on the rapture, etc.

 

I believe that what is called the PTR is in fact the coming of Christ for resurrection & judgement, and that there will be no further opportunity for anyone to repent & be saved.

 

As for all those books, they are all irrelevant as they are dealing with supposed events AFTER the present Gospel age. The Bible, including the prophetic books, deal with real, living people, and call for present action.

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Please point out the one, or ones that stated, denied, that the martyrs you spoke of did not go though persecution or tribulations?  

 

Could any tribulation be any worse?

 

It is constantly said on here that the church will not go through tribulation.

Edited by Invicta

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Could any tribulation be any worse?

 

It is constantly said on here that the church will not go through tribulation.

Maybe everyone isn't wording things clearly, but the pre-trib rapture view is that there will be a 7 year tribulation and Christians will be raptured before that occurs. They acknowledge there will be persecution and tribulation prior to that, but contend the 7 year tribulation will be much greater than anything previous and is the outpouring of the wrath of God which Christians will not be subject to.

 

Mid-trib rapturists hold to a similar view, except they only view the last half of the 7 year tribulation as the wrath of God and believe the church will be raptured at the mid-point of the 7 year tribulation, just prior to the Great Tribulation which they contend lasts 3 1/2 years and is the wrath of God.

 

Both agree there is persecution and tribulation for Christians prior to this, but see "The Tribulation" and especially "The Great Tribulation" as being very much worse and something Christians will not go through because of being raptured prior to it beginning.

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To all who are not going to be raptured before the tribulation,

 

 

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3

14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

 

The tribulation will be soon since Israel has gathered.

 

How will you take care of your family during the tribulation? Russia and America(((Jeremiah 6:22))) will fight a nuclear war. America will win but how will you live? This is searious!

Edited by Eric Stahl

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To all who are not going to be raptured before the tribulation,

 

 

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3

14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

 

The tribulation will be soon since Israel has gathered.

 

How will you take care of your family during the tribulation? Russia and America(((Jeremiah 6:22))) will fight a nuclear war. America will win but how will you live? This is searious!

Where does this say Russia and America will fight a nuclear war?

 

In or out of tribulation, the lost are in exceeding danger. In or out of tribulation, the saved are assured of their destination.

 

Either way, the point of knowing the end will one day be upon us is a call to action on our part to pursue personal holiness while spreading the Gospel and making disciples.

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I believe that what is called the PTR is in fact the coming of Christ for resurrection & judgement, and that there will be no further opportunity for anyone to repent & be saved.

 

If there is no further opportunity for salvation during the tribulation, then who are the tribulation saints and why the need for 144,000 set apart Jewish converts to preach the Gospel after the rapture?

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2 Thessalonians 2:7 does not say it is the Holy Spirit who will be taken out of the way.  It could be a (super) angel as we see in Daniel 10. 

Oft repeated "assumptions" will not always prove the case.

 

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth  will let, until he be taken out of the way.

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If there is no further opportunity for salvation during the tribulation, then who are the tribulation saints and why the need for 144,000 set apart Jewish converts to preach the Gospel after the rapture?

 

I disagree with that, however, I firmly believe that anyone who has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, & had understood it, rejected Jesus, will not have another opportunity after the rapture, yet for those who have not understood it, has not rejected Christ they will have an opportunity to be saved. The only thing is that in the tribulation, & even more so in the great tribulations, it will be a very tough hardship to be saved.

 

I should word that different, yet at the moment that's the best I can do.

 

The believers during that time will be persecuted beyond belief. Imagine a father & mother with child, & the only way they can obtain food, buy it, is by taking the mark of the beast.

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2 Thessalonians 2:7 does not say it is the Holy Spirit who will be taken out of the way.  It could be a (super) angel as we see in Daniel 10. 

Oft repeated "assumptions" will not always prove the case.

 

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth  will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Actually, I agree. I don't see in scripture where it says that the job of the Spirit is to keep Satan from control-rather, He seals the believer, (something that will occur during the GT), He teaches, He brings things to our remembrance, and He comforts. It seems that Michael tends to be the one who disputes with the devil.

 

If there is no further opportunity for salvation during the tribulation, then who are the tribulation saints and why the need for 144,000 set apart Jewish converts to preach the Gospel after the rapture?

As well, why do we see some three times where the Bible laments that, despite all that happens, the people still refuse to repent? Why would that be mentioned, if there was no way they could repent?

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Ian:

I believe that what is called the PTR is in fact the coming of Christ for resurrection & judgement, and that there will be no further opportunity for anyone to repent & be saved.

When Jesus returns, the "last/end times," aka the present Gospel age, will be over.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

 

2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

If there is no further opportunity for salvation during the tribulation, then who are the tribulation saints and why the need for 144,000 set apart Jewish converts to preach the Gospel after the rapture?

 

A very good question that you should ask the Scriptures. Revelation was obviously written to its first readers, before the destruction prophesied by Jesus. See Rev. 11, which prophesies the end of the temple & Jerusalem. The 144,000 Jews were sealed & protected before the four winds (4 horsemen) were released. They had been warned by Jesus to flee the city before its destruction. (Mat. 24)

 

What is this "rapture." It is not taught in the Bible. We look for Jesus' return for resurrection & judgement. You are all reading in, rather than reading.

 

 

Mike:

As well, why do we see some three times where the Bible laments that, despite all that happens, the people still refuse to repent? Why would that be mentioned, if there was no way they could repent?

 

Only 3 times? The history of Israel throughout the OT is determined unrepentant godlessness. God is longsuffering, Of course they are called on to repent, & all who repented were saved. Those who did repent in the 40 years between Jesus' resurrection and his comin in the days of vengeance ultimately fled the city. Those who did not repent suffered in the destruction. Read Acts 7 for Israel's history. Hebrews repeats the warning. The 40 years was fast running out.

 

Heb. 3:But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

No. all the fantastic ideas put forward in these threads are the invention of those who read the Bible with dispensational blinders on. They reject the plain words of Scripture and claim a false "literal" reading that is carnal, not spiritual.

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When Jesus returns, the "last/end times," aka the present Gospel age, will be over.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

 

2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

 

A very good question that you should ask the Scriptures. Revelation was obviously written to its first readers, before the destruction prophesied by Jesus. See Rev. 11, which prophesies the end of the temple & Jerusalem. The 144,000 Jews were sealed & protected before the four winds (4 horsemen) were released. They had been warned by Jesus to flee the city before its destruction. (Mat. 24)

 

What is this "rapture." It is not taught in the Bible. We look for Jesus' return for resurrection & judgement. You are all reading in, rather than reading.

 

 

Only 3 times? The history of Israel throughout the OT is determined unrepentant godlessness. God is longsuffering, Of course they are called on to repent, & all who repented were saved. Those who did repent in the 40 years between Jesus' resurrection and his comin in the days of vengeance ultimately fled the city. Those who did not repent suffered in the destruction. Read Acts 7 for Israel's history. Hebrews repeats the warning. The 40 years was fast running out.

 

Heb. 3:But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

No. all the fantastic ideas put forward in these threads are the invention of those who read the Bible with dispensational blinders on. They reject the plain words of Scripture and claim a false "literal" reading that is carnal, not spiritual.

 

covenanter,

 

Do you believe the mark of the beast has happened?

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Tell me about it please.

These things prophesied in Revelation would occur during the time before the destruction. The precise nature is not recorded in Scripture, so we can either refer to secular historians, or trust God that those given the warnings recognised what was happening, and either suffered the consequences of their faithfulness, or fled the persecutions (as warned by Jesus) or denied their profession.

 

I expect Invicta will be able to give you the secular history. If you are really interested.

 

"Interpreting" Scripture by imposing computer technology was not possible to John's readers. The just had to read and apply his teaching in their immediate situation. Likewise they could calculate the mark of the beast using names and numbers.

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These things prophesied in Revelation would occur during the time before the destruction. The precise nature is not recorded in Scripture, so we can either refer to secular historians, or trust God that those given the warnings recognised what was happening, and either suffered the consequences of their faithfulness, or fled the persecutions (as warned by Jesus) or denied their profession.

 

I expect Invicta will be able to give you the secular history. If you are really interested.

 

"Interpreting" Scripture by imposing computer technology was not possible to John's readers. The just had to read and apply his teaching in their immediate situation. Likewise they could calculate the mark of the beast using names and numbers.

 

The 7 years tribulations right after the rapture has nothing whatsoever to do with computers or technology, so leave that out, it has no place under this topic, that is exactly what has been taught since the beginning & its still the truth. In other words that is what God teaches us, that is what God inspired the writers of the Bible to write.

 

You have set under some bad teachers.

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Jerry, I meant they way people suggest bar coding or implanting chips as the mark.

 

We really don't know what exactly the mark will be, but there's no doubt God could for see the future & it could be something like you pointed out & or something we have not seen or heard of yet. 

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It is of course a false teaching that this has always been taught.  It is a relatively novel teaching which came to the Us about the end of the 19th century, and England towards the middle,

 

The mark of the beast 

 

14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
 
The mark of the beast is the sign of the cross given by the priest on the forehead with his right hand (Also given when a devotee crosses themselves)  In the middle ages, without this mark it was forbidden for any RC to buy from or sell to, or even bury and 'heretic'.  There was the case of 40 Publicani of the germanic tongue, who were found in Oxford (I have been told that in the British museum there is a book where they are called Waldensians. These witnesses refused to renounce their faith and were stripped to their girdles and cast out of the city and the populace were ordered not to give them sustenance and they soon perished as it was the middle of the winter.  Another thing that was forbidden was to bury 'heretics'.  A few years ago we were told at the Baptist church I was then attending, b y someone who had been visiting a church in Italy, that when someone becomes a Christian and joins the church, the priests will put pressure on the RCs to refuse to sell to them, to refuse to employ them and to evict them from their homes.  
 
Receiving the mark cannot be without repentance as the old sin that may not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit, which is rejecting His testimony of Jesus.

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It is of course a false teaching that this has always been taught.  It is a relatively novel teaching which came to the Us about the end of the 19th century, and England towards the middle,

 

The mark of the beast 

 

14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
 
The mark of the beast is the sign of the cross given by the priest on the forehead with his right hand (Also given when a devotee crosses themselves)  In the middle ages, without this mark it was forbidden for any RC to buy from or sell to, or even bury and 'heretic'.  There was the case of 40 Publicani of the germanic tongue, who were found in Oxford (I have been told that in the British museum there is a book where they are called Waldensians. These witnesses refused to renounce their faith and were stripped to their girdles and cast out of the city and the populace were ordered not to give them sustenance and they soon perished as it was the middle of the winter.  Another thing that was forbidden was to bury 'heretics'.  A few years ago we were told at the Baptist church I was then attending, b y someone who had been visiting a church in Italy, that when someone becomes a Christian and joins the church, the priests will put pressure on the RCs to refuse to sell to them, to refuse to employ them and to evict them from their homes.  
 
Receiving the mark cannot be without repentance as the old sin that may not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit, which is rejecting His testimony of Jesus.

 

 

Your badly confused, the mark is in the future that will take place after the rapture during the tribulation. You need to go back & pay attending to some of the post that's been made in order to get straitened out.

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And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore

upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Revelation 16:2

 

Looks like the consequences of receiving the mark of the Beast are very nasty sores breaking out upon the skin.

 

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It is of course a false teaching that this has always been taught.  It is a relatively novel teaching which came to the Us about the end of the 19th century, and England towards the middle,

 

The mark of the beast 

 

14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
 
The mark of the beast is the sign of the cross given by the priest on the forehead with his right hand (Also given when a devotee crosses themselves)  In the middle ages, without this mark it was forbidden for any RC to buy from or sell to, or even bury and 'heretic'.  There was the case of 40 Publicani of the germanic tongue, who were found in Oxford (I have been told that in the British museum there is a book where they are called Waldensians. These witnesses refused to renounce their faith and were stripped to their girdles and cast out of the city and the populace were ordered not to give them sustenance and they soon perished as it was the middle of the winter.  Another thing that was forbidden was to bury 'heretics'.  A few years ago we were told at the Baptist church I was then attending, b y someone who had been visiting a church in Italy, that when someone becomes a Christian and joins the church, the priests will put pressure on the RCs to refuse to sell to them, to refuse to employ them and to evict them from their homes.  
 
Receiving the mark cannot be without repentance as the old sin that may not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit, which is rejecting His testimony of Jesus.

 

 

I am starting to see a trend in what our Euro brethren have been led to believe. It appears they regionalize the cataclysmic events of revelation to an area about the size of Texas and New Jersey (middle ages Europe & Israel).

 

Like I said before, the mechanics and math do not remotely add up and now I will add the geography.

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I am starting to see a trend in what our Euro brethren have been led to believe. It appears they regionalize the cataclysmic events of revelation to an area about the size of Texas and New Jersey (middle ages Europe & Israel).

 

Like I said before, the mechanics and math do not remotely add up and now I will add the geography.

The Europeans have a tough time with the Jew. Always have, always will.

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