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Eric Stahl

Pre Tribulation Rapture Of The Church

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I answered several questions in this post. Rather than even attempt an answer, Eric asked a question that left this post without comment.

 

======

 

Ian:

I believe that what is called the PTR is in fact the coming of Christ for resurrection & judgement, and that there will be no further opportunity for anyone to repent & be saved.

When Jesus returns, the "last/end times," aka the present Gospel age, will be over.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

 

2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

If there is no further opportunity for salvation during the tribulation, then who are the tribulation saints and why the need for 144,000 set apart Jewish converts to preach the Gospel after the rapture?

 

A very good question that you should ask the Scriptures. Revelation was obviously written to its first readers, before the destruction prophesied by Jesus. See Rev. 11, which prophesies the end of the temple & Jerusalem. The 144,000 Jews were sealed & protected before the four winds (4 horsemen) were released. They had been warned by Jesus to flee the city before its destruction. (Mat. 24)

 

What is this "rapture." It is not taught in the Bible. We look for Jesus' return for resurrection & judgement. You are all reading in, rather than reading.

 

 

Mike:

As well, why do we see some three times where the Bible laments that, despite all that happens, the people still refuse to repent? Why would that be mentioned, if there was no way they could repent?

 

Only 3 times? The history of Israel throughout the OT is determined unrepentant godlessness. God is longsuffering, Of course they are called on to repent, & all who repented were saved. Those who did repent in the 40 years between Jesus' resurrection and his comin in the days of vengeance ultimately fled the city. Those who did not repent suffered in the destruction. Read Acts 7 for Israel's history. Hebrews repeats the warning. The 40 years was fast running out.

 

Heb. 3:But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

No. all the fantastic ideas put forward in these threads are the invention of those who read the Bible with dispensational blinders on. They reject the plain words of Scripture and claim a false "literal" reading that is carnal, not spiritual.

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I answered several questions in this post. Rather than even attempt an answer, Eric asked a question that left this post without comment.

 

======

When Jesus returns, the "last/end times," aka the present Gospel age, will be over.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

 

2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

 

A very good question that you should ask the Scriptures. Revelation was obviously written to its first readers, before the destruction prophesied by Jesus. See Rev. 11, which prophesies the end of the temple & Jerusalem. The 144,000 Jews were sealed & protected before the four winds (4 horsemen) were released. They had been warned by Jesus to flee the city before its destruction. (Mat. 24)

 

What is this "rapture." It is not taught in the Bible. We look for Jesus' return for resurrection & judgement. You are all reading in, rather than reading.

 

 

Only 3 times? The history of Israel throughout the OT is determined unrepentant godlessness. God is longsuffering, Of course they are called on to repent, & all who repented were saved. Those who did repent in the 40 years between Jesus' resurrection and his comin in the days of vengeance ultimately fled the city. Those who did not repent suffered in the destruction. Read Acts 7 for Israel's history. Hebrews repeats the warning. The 40 years was fast running out.

 

Heb. 3:But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

No. all the fantastic ideas put forward in these threads are the invention of those who read the Bible with dispensational blinders on. They reject the plain words of Scripture and claim a false "literal" reading that is carnal, not spiritual.

 

Covenanter,

I post on 5 prophecy sites. I can't stay here and wait.

 

Your mind is made up.

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From Clarence Larkin - The Book of Revelation

 

1. THE HEAVENLY DOOR.

Rev. 4:1.

"AFTER THIS I looked, and, behold, a DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN: and the first voice which I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (after these).

 

The scene now changes from earth (Patmos) to Heaven. John tells us that After This, after his Vision of Christ in the midst of the "Seven Candlesticks," and his foreview of the history of the Christian Church, as reviewed in the Messages to the Seven Churches, which carried him down to the end of the Church Age, he looked, and behold a DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN, and the same voice that spoke to him from the midst of the "Seven Golden Candlesticks," which was the voice of Christ (Rev. 1:10-13), said with the clearness and sweetness of a trumpet--

"COME UP HITHER
AND I WILL SHOW THEE THINGS WHICH MUST
BE HEREAFTER
"

And John adds

"IMMEDIATELY I WAS IN THE SPIRIT:

and, behold, a Throne was set in Heaven, and ONE sat on the Throne." The experience of John was similar to that of Paul, who was caught up into Paradise. Whether in the body or out of the body they are uncertain, at least Paul was. 2. Cor. 12:2-4. The difference between them however was, that, while Paul heard words that he was forbidden to speak, John was told to "WRITE IN A BOOK" the things he saw and heard, and send them to the Seven Churches in Asia.

In this "Rapture" of John we have a type of the

RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH,

and it is at this place in the Book that the "RAPTURE" of the Church takes place.

After the confession of Peter at Caesarea Philippi, that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God (Matt. 16:13-28), and Jesus had said that upon the rock of that confession He would build His Church, He said to His Disciples'--"Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM." And then we read in the next chapter (and there should be no chapter division), "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, and was TRANSFIGURED BEFORE THEM." Matt. 17:1-9. Now this "Transfiguration Scene" is a type of the Second Coming of Christ, Moses being a type of the "Resurrected Saints," and Elijah of the "Translated Saints."

 

As the promise of Christ to His Disciples that some of them should not "taste of death" until they saw in vision a rehearsal of the manner of His Second Coming, was fulfilled in the "Transfiguration Scene," so the statement made to Peter as to John, "If I will that heTARRY TILL I COME" (John 21:20-23), finds its fulfilment in John's being caught up in vision and beholding before his death, what he would have witnessed and experienced if his life had been prolonged until Jesus came back. Thus John was permitted to live, until, in vision, he saw the Return of the Lord.

The "Rapture" of the Church is described in 1. Thess. 4:16-17. "For the Lord HIMSELF shall descend from Heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP OF GOD; and the DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise first: then we WHICH ARE ALIVE and REMAIN shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Note how John's taking up corresponds with this. He was summoned by the "VOICE OF CHRIST," and it will be the "SHOUT of Christ" that shall summon the saints at the Rapture. It was with a "LOUD VOICE" that Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb. John 11:43. And as it was a Trumpet Like Voice that summoned John, so it will be a TRUMPET CALL that will summon the Saints at the Rapture.

 

As confirmatory proof that the Church is "caught out" at this time and place, we have in the description of the Throne, the statement that the Holy Spirit in the Seven-fold plentitude of His power, is BACK IN HEAVEN. In none of the Epistles is the Holy Spirit invoked along with the Father and the Son, except in 2. Cor. 13:14, because He is viewed as abiding on the earth with the Church, convicting of sin, comforting believers, and gathering out the elect, but here He is no longer on the earth but back in Heaven, and before the Throne. This is the strongest kind of evidence that the Church at this time has been "caught out" and is no longer on the earth, for when the Holy Spirit goes back to Heaven He will take the Church WITH HIM. And the presence of the Holy Spirit in Heaven is conclusive evidence that the events that follow are to take place after the Church has been caught out, and therefore the Church is not to pass through the Tribulation.

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From Clarence Larkin - The Book of Revelation

 

1. THE HEAVENLY DOOR.

Rev. 4:1.

"AFTER THIS I looked, and, behold, a DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN: and the first voice which I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (after these).

 

The scene now changes from earth (Patmos) to Heaven. John tells us that After This, after his Vision of Christ in the midst of the "Seven Candlesticks," and his foreview of the history of the Christian Church, as reviewed in the Messages to the Seven Churches, which carried him down to the end of the Church Age, he looked, and behold a DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN, and the same voice that spoke to him from the midst of the "Seven Golden Candlesticks," which was the voice of Christ (Rev. 1:10-13), said with the clearness and sweetness of a trumpet--

"COME UP HITHER
AND I WILL SHOW THEE THINGS WHICH MUST
BE HEREAFTER
"

And John adds

"IMMEDIATELY I WAS IN THE SPIRIT:

and, behold, a Throne was set in Heaven, and ONE sat on the Throne." The experience of John was similar to that of Paul, who was caught up into Paradise. Whether in the body or out of the body they are uncertain, at least Paul was. 2. Cor. 12:2-4. The difference between them however was, that, while Paul heard words that he was forbidden to speak, John was told to "WRITE IN A BOOK" the things he saw and heard, and send them to the Seven Churches in Asia.

In this "Rapture" of John we have a type of the

RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH,

and it is at this place in the Book that the "RAPTURE" of the Church takes place.

After the confession of Peter at Caesarea Philippi, that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God (Matt. 16:13-28), and Jesus had said that upon the rock of that confession He would build His Church, He said to His Disciples'--"Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM." And then we read in the next chapter (and there should be no chapter division), "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, and was TRANSFIGURED BEFORE THEM." Matt. 17:1-9. Now this "Transfiguration Scene" is a type of the Second Coming of Christ, Moses being a type of the "Resurrected Saints," and Elijah of the "Translated Saints."

 

As the promise of Christ to His Disciples that some of them should not "taste of death" until they saw in vision a rehearsal of the manner of His Second Coming, was fulfilled in the "Transfiguration Scene," so the statement made to Peter as to John, "If I will that heTARRY TILL I COME" (John 21:20-23), finds its fulfilment in John's being caught up in vision and beholding before his death, what he would have witnessed and experienced if his life had been prolonged until Jesus came back. Thus John was permitted to live, until, in vision, he saw the Return of the Lord.

The "Rapture" of the Church is described in 1. Thess. 4:16-17. "For the Lord HIMSELF shall descend from Heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP OF GOD; and the DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise first: then we WHICH ARE ALIVE and REMAIN shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Note how John's taking up corresponds with this. He was summoned by the "VOICE OF CHRIST," and it will be the "SHOUT of Christ" that shall summon the saints at the Rapture. It was with a "LOUD VOICE" that Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb. John 11:43. And as it was a Trumpet Like Voice that summoned John, so it will be a TRUMPET CALL that will summon the Saints at the Rapture.

 

As confirmatory proof that the Church is "caught out" at this time and place, we have in the description of the Throne, the statement that the Holy Spirit in the Seven-fold plentitude of His power, is BACK IN HEAVEN. In none of the Epistles is the Holy Spirit invoked along with the Father and the Son, except in 2. Cor. 13:14, because He is viewed as abiding on the earth with the Church, convicting of sin, comforting believers, and gathering out the elect, but here He is no longer on the earth but back in Heaven, and before the Throne. This is the strongest kind of evidence that the Church at this time has been "caught out" and is no longer on the earth, for when the Holy Spirit goes back to Heaven He will take the Church WITH HIM. And the presence of the Holy Spirit in Heaven is conclusive evidence that the events that follow are to take place after the Church has been caught out, and therefore the Church is not to pass through the Tribulation.

 

Now, I don't see the taking of John into Heaven as the rapture-I don't see it as being any different than when Isaiah was taken to Heaven and given prophecy for his time. Or Ezekiel-I believe John  was taken to Heaven for the same reason, that being, to receive a prophecy. I have still never been given any particular answer to the events of Rev 14, when the Son of man sits on a cloud and reaps the harvest earth-this is a clear picture of the rapture: after the last (seventh) trumpet, (Notice the importance of the sounding of the seventh/last trumpet: "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Rev 810:7), in the cloud, after an angel out of the temple in Heaven has shouted that the time has come to reap-we see a trumpet, clouds, Jesus and the voice of an angel, (archangel?).

 

How much more specific can it be? In the other, in Rev 4, all we have is a voice LIKE a trumpet, and one guy going, who was brought obviously, stated, to write prophecies. Not what the church will go. we ignore a clear passage that meets all the prophecies given for the rapture of the saints, and instead hold to a very vague interretation of a single passage that has a clear interpretation: prophecy, but hold to it, because it matches what we want: a pre-tribulation rapture that is not backed up in any scripture.

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Now, I don't see the taking of John into Heaven as the rapture-I don't see it as being any different than when Isaiah was taken to Heaven and given prophecy for his time. Or Ezekiel-I believe John  was taken to Heaven for the same reason, that being, to receive a prophecy. I have still never been given any particular answer to the events of Rev 14, when the Son of man sits on a cloud and reaps the harvest earth-this is a clear picture of the rapture: after the last (seventh) trumpet, (Notice the importance of the sounding of the seventh/last trumpet: "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Rev 810:7), in the cloud, after an angel out of the temple in Heaven has shouted that the time has come to reap-we see a trumpet, clouds, Jesus and the voice of an angel, (archangel?).

 

How much more specific can it be? In the other, in Rev 4, all we have is a voice LIKE a trumpet, and one guy going, who was brought obviously, stated, to write prophecies. Not what the church will go. we ignore a clear passage that meets all the prophecies given for the rapture of the saints, and instead hold to a very vague interretation of a single passage that has a clear interpretation: prophecy, but hold to it, because it matches what we want: a pre-tribulation rapture that is not backed up in any scripture.

 

The church is absent from this point until Rev. 19.  The church is not in Rev. 14. it disappears after John's vision.

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Scofield rears his ugly head....

The church is absent from this point until Rev. 19.  The church is not in Rev. 14. it disappears after John's vision.

Scofield:

4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Come up hither

This call seems clearly to indicate the fulfilment of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 . The word "church" does not again occur in the Revelation till all is fulfilled.

At least Eric has one (dubious) virtue - his postings are original - even though they are private interpretations. The trouble is he works within a dispensational paradigm.

 

We need to see what Revelation is all about BEFORE we we start to interpret it. I like to start at the first chapter, to see who it is written to. There we see it is written to real people, for their encouragement and blessing - John's companions in tribulation.

 

We should not lift it from its historical context and put it beyond all living Christian experience. Put it into an imaginary dispensation from which all Christians are removed to their "grand-stand" heavenly seats, where they watch God playing a "cat-and-mouse" game with the world of the ungodly. That "interpretation" totally destroys the urgency of the opening chapter.

 

Revelation should be read as a "reprise" of Jesus Olivet prophecy; a final warning to an unregenerate Israel. It should also be seen for encouragement to believers who will suffer tribulation at the hands of the ungodly until Christ returns at the end of time. Compare 2 Thes. 1. 

 

Rev. 1:The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

You folk are robbing the reader of the promised blessing.

Edited by Covenanter

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I would be happy to explain why I use a literal hermeneutics when interpreting prophecy.  The first reason is that all prophecy that has already been fulfilled has been fulfilled in a literal way.  This is  obvious to most people.  The prophecy that has not been fulfilled it would be expected to also be fulfilled in a literal way.  When it comes to Eschatology all methods that replace Israel with the church are simply not valid when scripture is literally interpreted.  A dispensational premillennial view is the only view that makes logical sense.

 

The early church (Apostles and first century fathers) viewed scripture from a literal standpoint and was still looking for the Messiah to come the second time during their lives.  After the first century many false schools of interpretation starting using an allegorical method to interpret scripture, which continued until Augustine reasoned that the methods used by the Apostles and first century fathers were correct.  This correction was used for everything except Eschatology, and no reason was ever provided why this correction was ever made.  Likely since a post-millennial  view was created during this time to answer other heresies that had crept into Christianity is the reason that sound hermeneutics was never recovered for eschatology.  

 

Later after the reformation theologians returned to sound Eschatology and this has been the standard since the early 1900's.   Makes sense to use a literal reading, it is so much easier that changing the simple definitions of words like, elect, all, everyone, world, whosoever, etc, etc, etc.  

 

I happen to agree with Clarence Larkin which is why I posted the above. However, I don't need to answer to why I posted this everyone who uses a logical, literal method of interpretation will come to the same conclusion.

Edited by The Ohio Patriot

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You folk are robbing the reader of the promised blessing.

 

Revelation 1:3 (KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand

 

Notice when this was written, during the latter part of the reign of Domitian which is the accepted time frame from nearly every theologian that exists. When John wrote this was clearly after 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, again documented and accepted by everyone except, the promised blessing was expected soon, the time was at hand but clearly Jesus has not come back.  To claim any other position but a liter pre-millennial dispensational view of eschatology is robbing everyone of the promised blessing.

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The church is absent from this point until Rev. 19.  The church is not in Rev. 14. it disappears after John's vision.

Just because the church is not mentiojed specifically doesn't mean they aren't there. The saints are spoken of a lot. Are we not the saints? Is it possible that, such would be the persecution, that organized churches, assemblies, may be a bit difficult to have? And again, since the main thrust of the GT is Jacob, it would make sense that the church is not spoken of that much-but nowhere does it say they are removed, or taken away.  

In fact, the reaping by the Son of man in the clouds matches well the reaping mentioned in Matt 24, which takes place AFTER the tribulation of those days, as well as the reaping, when the chaff and the wheat are separated. In Rev 14, when it mentions that the harvest is 'ripe', it means 'dry'. Some have said, because of this, it can't refer to the church. However, it fits perfectly, since we are likened to wheat-and how do you know wheat is ready for harvesting? because it is 'dry'. So if there is a reaping because the harvest is dry, it fits perfectly for the separation of the wheat out from the chaff.

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It's pretty simple: Israel, the Adulterous Wife of Jehovah, has been set-aside (for the last 2,000 yrs.) and the Gospel given to the Gentiles.
When the Gentile, Bride of Christ, is removed from the earth [harpazo], then it will be Israel's turn again; and what a harvest they will have!

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will,
a DISPENSATION of the gospel is committed unto me. [Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles]
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the DISPENSATION of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
One, two, three witnesses - 2 Cor 13:1b " In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

Edited by beameup

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Just because the church is not mentiojed specifically doesn't mean they aren't there. The saints are spoken of a lot. Are we not the saints? Is it possible that, such would be the persecution, that organized churches, assemblies, may be a bit difficult to have? And again, since the main thrust of the GT is Jacob, it would make sense that the church is not spoken of that much-but nowhere does it say they are removed, or taken away.  

In fact, the reaping by the Son of man in the clouds matches well the reaping mentioned in Matt 24, which takes place AFTER the tribulation of those days, as well as the reaping, when the chaff and the wheat are separated. In Rev 14, when it mentions that the harvest is 'ripe', it means 'dry'. Some have said, because of this, it can't refer to the church. However, it fits perfectly, since we are likened to wheat-and how do you know wheat is ready for harvesting? because it is 'dry'. So if there is a reaping because the harvest is dry, it fits perfectly for the separation of the wheat out from the chaff.

 

I believe the church is present, in Heaven not on the earth any longer.  I believe as I have stated in a Pre-Millennial view of the rapture.  This is the literal reading of scripture.  If you want to stay on the earth during the tribulation, have at it.  

 

From reading scripture I do not believe that Christ leaves His church on the earth to suffer this.  We may not agree on this issue, which for me is not an issue,  

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I believe the church is present, in Heaven not on the earth any longer.  I believe as I have stated in a Pre-Millennial view of the rapture.  This is the literal reading of scripture.  If you want to stay on the earth during the tribulation, have at it.  

 

From reading scripture I do not believe that Christ leaves His church on the earth to suffer this.  We may not agree on this issue, which for me is not an issue,  

Honestly, its not an issue to me, either, or not a separtion issue. Christ will take us when He does, and I truly hope I AM wrong-I just have not yet seen anything from the Bible to convince me otherwise.

Could you maybe give me the post from the other thread of your part? Thanks!

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It's pretty simple: Israel, the Adulterous Wife of Jehovah, has been set-aside (for the last 2,000 yrs.) and the Gospel given to the Gentiles.
When the Gentile, Bride of Christ, is removed from the earth [harpazo], then it will be Israel's turn again; and what a harvest they will have!

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will,
a DISPENSATION of the gospel is committed unto me. [Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles]
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the DISPENSATION of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
One, two, three witnesses - 2 Cor 13:1b " In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

Okay, but give me some Bible that shows the dispensation includes the removal of the church.

 

Also, some Bible that the church is the bride of Christ. I know that almost sounds blasphemous that I would question that, but there it is. It seems to me that the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, the remade original bride, israel.

 

By the way, just because Israel was set aside during this age if grace, doesn't mean they were gone, removed from the earth. Why, then would we be? Why does a dispensation have to mean the absolute removal of the church? Rather, the book of revelation speaks about the saint, and the book, after all, IS written TO the churches.

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Okay, but give me some Bible that shows the dispensation includes the removal of the church.

 

Also, some Bible that the church is the bride of Christ. I know that almost sounds blasphemous that I would question that, but there it is. It seems to me that the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, the remade original bride, israel.

 

By the way, just because Israel was set aside during this age if grace, doesn't mean they were gone, removed from the earth. Why, then would we be? Why does a dispensation have to mean the absolute removal of the church? Rather, the book of revelation speaks about the saint, and the book, after all, IS written TO the churches.

Revelation 19:6-9

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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Okay, but give me some Bible that shows the dispensation includes the removal of the church.

 

Also, some Bible that the church is the bride of Christ. I know that almost sounds blasphemous that I would question that, but there it is. It seems to me that the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, the remade original bride, israel.

 

By the way, just because Israel was set aside during this age if grace, doesn't mean they were gone, removed from the earth. Why, then would we be? Why does a dispensation have to mean the absolute removal of the church? Rather, the book of revelation speaks about the saint, and the book, after all, IS written TO the churches.

1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

(((The comforting news is that I am getting raptured out of here before the wrath of the day of the Lord!)))

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1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

(((The comforting news is that I am getting raptured out of here before the wrath of the day of the Lord!)))

 

The coming wrath is the day of judgment.  We will of course not be condemned on that day.

 

Re 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
Re 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

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I fully understand that it is not conclusive, but when God has directly intervened in a Major way such as the descriptions of Rev 4 on, He has separated His people out.
Precedent (not proof) shows this in Noah for instance.

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I fully understand that it is not conclusive, but when God has directly intervened in a Major way such as the descriptions of Rev 4 on, He has separated His people out.
Precedent (not proof) shows this in Noah for instance.

Think about Noah-he was not removed from the tribulation of the flood, just providentially allowed to ride it out. He still had to live through watching (or hearing), his neighbors and loved ones die in the flood; he still had to ride the flood waters for over a year, and he and his family had to work hard afterward to continue the race. Doesn't sound like much of a rapture.

 

1 Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

 

(((The comforting news is that I am getting raptured out of here before the wrath of the day of the Lord!)))

None of these verses tell us WHEN we will be removed-just that we will. And look at the context, specifically what it says: the comfort has NOTHING, zero, zip, nada, to do with missing the tribulation. In fact, it doesn't even MENTION the tribulation in Thess 4;the specific context of comfort has to do with the surety of again seeing our loved ones who have died in Christ. Read again:

                   "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. "

 

Its true, God hasn't appointed us to wrath-but the wrath begins directly after the events of Rev 14:14, when Jesus reaps the earth of His harvest. We suffer tribulation, but are not appointed to wrath.

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No - he didn't go through that judgement. He was indeed removed from the place of judgement to a place of safety.

Still doesn't prove anything though. Just a point.

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Revelation 19:6-9

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Yes, the white linen is the righteousness of the saints-because the saints will dwell in it. However, it refers to us as those who are called to the marriage supper, not as the bride, itself. The bride seems to be the city, New Jerusalem, for it says:

                    "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev 21:12)

And

                    "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;"  (Rev 21:9-11)

 

Notice, the John describes the city as a bride adorned for her husband. Then an angel comes and ssays, "I wil shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife", and then takes him to the city, New jerusalem, whic is referred, in verse 11 as 'her'.   The city IS the bride, just as old Jerusalem was the wife of Jehovah, so the new Jerusalem is the wife of the Lamb, and the saints will dwell in her, and her white linen is the righteousness of those saints.

 

Matt 25 refers to the church as the wise virgins, who are invited to the wedding, not as the bride, herself. And notice, they are picked up by the bridegroom directly before the wedding feast begins. So we are raptured out just prior to the wedding feast, in Rev 14.

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Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come,
and his wife hath made herself ready.
Revelation 19:7 The marriage of Jesus to his bride.

In my Father's house are many mansions [dwelling places]: if it were not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a [dwelling] place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:2-3 The "dwelling places" combined make up the "New Jerusalem".

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Yes, the white linen is the righteousness of the saints-because the saints will dwell in it. However, it refers to us as those who are called to the marriage supper, not as the bride, itself. The bride seems to be the city, New Jerusalem, for it says:

                    "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev 21:12)

And

                    "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;"  (Rev 21:9-11)

 

Notice, the John describes the city as a bride adorned for her husband. Then an angel comes and ssays, "I wil shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife", and then takes him to the city, New jerusalem, whic is referred, in verse 11 as 'her'.   The city IS the bride, just as old Jerusalem was the wife of Jehovah, so the new Jerusalem is the wife of the Lamb, and the saints will dwell in her, and her white linen is the righteousness of those saints.

 

Matt 25 refers to the church as the wise virgins, who are invited to the wedding, not as the bride, herself. And notice, they are picked up by the bridegroom directly before the wedding feast begins. So we are raptured out just prior to the wedding feast, in Rev 14.

 

The New Jerusalem is made from purest gold clear as crystel. When John saw it coming down adorned as a bride, he could see the light of Jesus and the saints.

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The New Jerusalem is made from purest gold clear as crystel. When John saw it coming down adorned as a bride, he could see the light of Jesus and the saints.

Yes, but the angel says he will show John the bride, and then he shows him the city, which is adorned as a bride, not filled with the bride. It doesn't say the angel showed John the saints IN the city, but the city, itself.

Notice also, that as the angel shows John the city, John doesn't mention the saints at all; rather, he descirbes the city. The only thing associated with any saints are the naes of the 12 apostles of the Lamb on the foundations, and the 12 tribes of Israel on the gates. Otherwise, all attention is toward the city, hence, the bride.

 

as Old Israel was the spouse of YHWH, so the New Jersalem is the bride of Christ.

 

Sorry, I am hijacking the thread with this. Maybe I'll start a new post on this, where we can discuss it.

 

Back to OP! Hi-Yo!

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as Old Israel was the spouse of YHWH, so the New Jersalem is the bride of Christ.

 

YHWH? Made up word by a antisemitic German Rationialist who believed the Jews stole their god from the Syrians.

 

 

http://av1611.com/KJBp/ridiculous-KJV-bible-corrections/Yahweh-Jehova-YHVH.html

 

 

 

[9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

New Jerusalem is the bride and the wife of the Lamb. New Jerusalem is also our mother (Gal. 4:26). Can't be understood, only believed.

 

 

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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Yes, but the angel says he will show John the bride, and then he shows him the city, which is adorned as a bride, not filled with the bride. It doesn't say the angel showed John the saints IN the city, but the city, itself.

Notice also, that as the angel shows John the city, John doesn't mention the saints at all; rather, he descirbes the city. The only thing associated with any saints are the naes of the 12 apostles of the Lamb on the foundations, and the 12 tribes of Israel on the gates. Otherwise, all attention is toward the city, hence, the bride.

 

as Old Israel was the spouse of YHWH, so the New Jersalem is the bride of Christ.

 

Sorry, I am hijacking the thread with this. Maybe I'll start a new post on this, where we can discuss it.

 

Back to OP! Hi-Yo!

Mike,

 

Revelation 19

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

Mike the city can't put on white linen. The city is not righteous.

 

Pray for God to give you a proper understanding.

 

John was shown the lamb's wife and the city. It is important that you understand this, you are important because you are now a moderator and represent us.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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