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Eric Stahl

Pre Tribulation Rapture Of The Church

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Zechariah 14

1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

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Where in the Gospels???????????

 

And if it isn't in the Gospels, you think it doesn't apply.

Zechariah 14

1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

Jesus speaks in the whole bible not just the gospels.

 

 

 

"Where in the Gospels???????????

 

And if it isn't in the Gospels, you think it doesn't apply."        (((This question does't make any sense. What did you mean?)))


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Eric Stahl,

If Jesus says keep the feast of tabernacles in the kingdom age or get no rain, I think it still applies.

Ian:

Where in the Gospels???????????

 

And if it isn't in the Gospels, you think it doesn't apply.

 

 

 

Zechariah 14

........

16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


 

Eric: Jesus speaks in the whole bible not just the gospels.

 

How could I possibly disagree. However we must understand the old covenant Scriptures by the direct teaching of Jesus and his Apostles in the new covenant Scriptures.

 

And if it isn't in the Gospels, you think it doesn't apply."       

Eric:

(((This question does't make any sense. What did you mean?)))

Your original point was: "If Jesus says keep the feast of tabernacles in the kingdom age or get no rain, I think it still applies."

As Jesus did not specifically say that, the implication is that you point is invalid. However, we need to consider his teaching that we should understand as fulfilling that Scripture. The feast of tabernacles commemorated Israel's wilderness experience, during which time they lived in hope of the promised land. They must not forget all that God had done for them, once they were settled in the land.  So they came to Jerusalem, and lived in booths. 

 

When the Samaritan woman asked about worship centred on this or that mountain, he told her: 

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

  The old covenant feasts and temple centred worship would no longer apply. A Christ-centred spiritual worship and understanding is necessary. We are living in a wilderness, under our God's protection. We are strangers and pilgrims, and recognising this we do keep the feast of tabernacles in the true spiritual sense.

  

   

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Eric: Jesus speaks in the whole bible not just the gospels.

 

How could I possibly disagree. However we must understand the old covenant Scriptures by the direct teaching of Jesus and his Apostles in the new covenant Scriptures.

 

And if it isn't in the Gospels, you think it doesn't apply."       

Eric:

(((This question does't make any sense. What did you mean?)))

Your original point was: "If Jesus says keep the feast of tabernacles in the kingdom age or get no rain, I think it still applies."

As Jesus did not specifically say that, the implication is that you point is invalid. However, we need to consider his teaching that we should understand as fulfilling that Scripture. The feast of tabernacles commemorated Israel's wilderness experience, during which time they lived in hope of the promised land. They must not forget all that God had done for them, once they were settled in the land.  So they came to Jerusalem, and lived in booths. 

 

When the Samaritan woman asked about worship centred on this or that mountain, he told her: 

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

  The old covenant feasts and temple centred worship would no longer apply. A Christ-centred spiritual worship and understanding is necessary. We are living in a wilderness, under our God's protection. We are strangers and pilgrims, and recognising this we do keep the feast of tabernacles in the true spiritual sense.

  

   

I agree with this last statement. In fact, my lesson just last night was from this very scripture. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth-we no longer need a specific place of worship in order to worship properly.

 

However, that being said, just as Jesus' death, burial and resurrection made this possible, His return to earth in the flesh as ruling King of kings and Lord of lords, and His taking the throne, (not necessarily in a 'temple', as the temple worship ended upon His death), in Jerusalem, which I believe will all literally take place, will again place the center of worship in Jerusalem, not in a temple, but at the very throne of God the Son. Today we worship in spirit, because God is Spirit-then we will worship, I believe, both, in spirit and truth AND, at times, in Jerusalem, because God in the flesh will be here. So to say that we may need to keep a particular feast, perhaps now with a new meaning attached to it, such as freedom from bongade to sin, would not be odd. Why would not the whole world, or at least, representatives of it, not be required to present themselves before Jesus Christ, if He is ruling in the flesh on earth?  And why would they not be punished for rebelling and refusing to do so? He is God-He has a right to be worshiped and recognized by ALL for who He is, particularly then, when faith will be made sight?

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The next dispensation (oikonomia) will be under the Law, but it will be for the entire world (every nation) and not just Israel.
A lot of the passages in the Gospels refer to the Millennial reign of Christ on earth (for example).

But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Micah 4:1-3

 

 

 

3 Mt 11:13  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Edited by Invicta

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3 Mt 11:13  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

John the Baptizer was the last Old Testament prophet, and he preached: repent and be baptized for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

This is in contrast to the Gospel of Grace revealed to Paul wherein: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

 

Jesus only spoke the words that the Father gave him to speak:  

Jn 14:10b (for example) the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

The Kingdom of God was truly "at hand", but even after 30+ years the nation of Israel still failed to turn to their Messiah and the Temple was destroyed.

So, we are living in a parenthesis, a hiatus, and awaiting the fulfillment of the ancient prophecies concerning Israel (genetic Jews) and the Messianic reign. 

 

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:  Eph 3:3,5,6

The mystery was revealed to Paul.  It is not found in the O.T. or the Gospels.

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John the Baptizer was the last Old Testament prophet, and he preached: repent and be baptized for the Kingdom of God is at hand. It was Jesus that said that.

This is in contrast to the Gospel of Grace revealed to Paul wherein: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

 

Jesus only spoke the words that the Father gave him to speak:  

Jn 14:10b (for example) the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

The Kingdom of God was truly "at hand", but even after 30+ years the nation of Israel still failed to turn to their Messiah and the Temple was destroyed.

So, we are living in a parenthesis, a hiatus, and awaiting the fulfillment of the ancient prophecies concerning Israel (genetic Jews) and the Messianic reign. 

 

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:  Eph 3:3,5,6

The mystery was revealed to Paul.  It is not found in the O.T. or the Gospels.

 

 

Well, I agree with you to a point.  John baptised Jesus and said:

John 1:29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:36  And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
 
John called people to repent. But John thought Jesus had come to set up an earthly kingdom, so later had doubts and said:
 
2  Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3  And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4  Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5  The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6  And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
7 ¶  And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8  But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses.
9  But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10  For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12  And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14  And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15  He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
 

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This is my understanding and it is also thought in the early Church fathers (no, they were not Catholic at least until ca 4th century) like Tertulian (later fathers I reject and I do believe this to be a Baptist thinking).

When we see references to Noe, Lot and Rehab we see that the LORD has always delivered His people and then brought the judgement upon the ungodly. Also Apostle Paul told us that we have passed from the wrath of God and also Jesus is telling the Philadelphian Church that because she has keept the Word she shal be saved from the hour of temptation that will come upon the whole world. So this are clear teaching of the pre-19th century pre-trib Rapture.

Also I've seen an intereting video where the presentator quotes from the Catholic cathecism which says that the church (in their opinion) has to go trought the tribulation so her faith will be tested. Why would her faith be tested if we are saved by God's grace trough faith and not by our own efforts?! Also the presentator says it nicely: think about it if there is post trib Rapture what will you be doing: building a bunker in the mountains or preach the gospel? Now ask yourself this same for the pre-trib: there is no need for a bunker so your time can be spent on preaching.

About saints going trough tribulation already: true, millions have suffered and are suffering but the Bble speakins about THE Tribulation, not local tribulations. Think about that and may the LORD give us all one perfect understanding.

 

Blessings

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On 10/12/2017 at 3:18 PM, Uroš Pristavec-mavrič said:

This is my understanding and it is also thought in the early Church fathers (no, they were not Catholic at least until ca 4th century) like Tertulian (later fathers I reject and I do believe this to be a Baptist thinking).

When we see references to Noe, Lot and Rehab we see that the LORD has always delivered His people and then brought the judgement upon the ungodly. Also Apostle Paul told us that we have passed from the wrath of God and also Jesus is telling the Philadelphian Church that because she has keept the Word she shal be saved from the hour of temptation that will come upon the whole world. So this are clear teaching of the pre-19th century pre-trib Rapture.

Also I've seen an intereting video where the presentator quotes from the Catholic cathecism which says that the church (in their opinion) has to go trought the tribulation so her faith will be tested. Why would her faith be tested if we are saved by God's grace trough faith and not by our own efforts?! Also the presentator says it nicely: think about it if there is post trib Rapture what will you be doing: building a bunker in the mountains or preach the gospel? Now ask yourself this same for the pre-trib: there is no need for a bunker so your time can be spent on preaching.

About saints going trough tribulation already: true, millions have suffered and are suffering but the Bble speakins about THE Tribulation, not local tribulations. Think about that and may the LORD give us all one perfect understanding.

 

Blessings

God told Agabus to warn the church that a famine was coming so they could prepare. We need to prepare for the sorrows before the tribulation.

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