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Early Church Fathers Were Premillennial, Pre-Tribulation Rapture


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#41 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 09:33 AM

 

How does this fit in all this?

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

OK, I'll try, but I will have to extend my comments beyond v. 4 to make sense of the passage.

V. 1 - Paul is "beseeching them" - that is he is appealing to their common believe that Jesus Christ would return, and that we would be gathered to Him.  This is the issue that binds them together, and that now he wants to address

 

v. 2 - This doctrine of the Lord's return should not shake us or trouble us.  The false doctrine that was being taught then, as seen in II Timothy 2:16-18 is that the resurrection had ALREADY OCCURED, and that it was a "spiritual resurrection" and not physical.  This false doctrine taught that the return of Jesus Christ was not LITERAL but "spiritual" in that Christ had "returned" spiritually in the hearts of the believers.  (That teaching is still with us today....).  Some people were apparently forging letters in Paul's name to advance this false doctrine.  We should not be troubled by them.  The Day of Christ is not a fearful thing for the believer, because (v. 1) we will be gathered to him.

 

v. 3 How then, and WHY should we not be troubled by this false doctrine?  Because the apostle Paul gives us clues as to the timing of "the Day of Christ."  There is no date setting here, so please do not think that I am an advocate of setting dates.  But we can discern the times and seasons, and we should be observant enough to see what is happening around us. 

1.  "except there come a falling away" - this is nothing more than an apostacy, a global apostacy.  It was Kenneth Wuest, the great Bible corrector who suggested that this is a reference to a pre-trib rapture, and he did so by running to "the Greek."  But the rapture of the church is never referred to as a "falling away" but rather as a "catching up."  We don't FALL off the earth, the Lord TAKES us off the earth.  This is a false interpretation of the text. 

2.  It refers to a great "falling away" from the truth, as is evident from the rest of the text (see v. 9-12 - "lying wonders, deceivableness, believe a lie, etc.").  It is my opinion that we are living in those days, because the apostacy is now evident within our own circles, and across the globe, according to the accounts I receive from missionaries.  When those who have historically been the guardians of the truth (i.e. the Baptists) start falling into apostacy in regards to Bible doctrine and Bible practice, then that should be a clear indicator of where we are!

3.  The next clue is that the "man of sin" would be revealed.  Historically, the Baptists and even men like Martin Luther identified the Pope as the Antichrist, and the man of sin.  I happen to think that they are correct.  The point here is that if in fact the prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD, as some suggest, then the church would have known who the "man of sin" was.  Since there is no record of this identity by the early church, then it cannot be so.  It must point to a future event, Ian's comments notwithstanding. 

So what else does the Bible say about this man?  Revelation 13 tells us that this "beast" will have a deadly wound that will be healed.  To summarize what I believe, I believe the "man of sin" is killed, and resurrected somehow demonically, and at that point he becomes the "son of perdition."  The "son of perdition" is the antithesis to "the son of God." 

The Bible refers to two mysteries regarding this subject:  The mystery of Godliness (I Timothy 3:16), and the mystery of iniquity.  Just as we can never fully understand in our finite minds how Jesus Christ could be all God and all man at the same time, and then die physically to be later resurrected, so can we never fully understand how a man could be "the son of perdition".  That is, this person will be 100% human, but also 100% DEVIL at the same time.  The son of perdition is the exact opposite of Jesus Christ. 

Thus, I believe the text here means that the man of sin will be revealed AS the son of perdition.  While we have seen many "antichrists" in the world, this man will be THE antichrist referred to in Rev. 13.

 

4.  We are not to allow ourselves to be troubled until we see this revealing - or unveiling.  Now this opens up another question - will believers know who the antichrist is before the rapture?  I think so.  I believe the HOly Spirit will identify him to the church prior to our "catching away".  But the world will only see this demonic character as the "messiah" who will bring in world peace (Rev. 6).

 

Verse 4 - How can we identify this "man of sin?"  He claims to be God.  His claim is so strong that he proves it by entering into a physical building that the Jews refer to as "the temple" (i.e. this is not a spiritual application to our bodies), and this demonic man sits down in the Holy of Holies, on the mercy seat, and claims that he is God.  After all, if he was NOT God, would not the REAL God kill him???  This fits with Rev. 13:5 - the blasphemies that come out of the mouth of the resurrected "son of perdition."

 

I do not believe the church will be on the earth when he goes into the temple and sits down on the mercy seat.  I believe that it will be clear to the Bible-Believing Christian who this man is because he will oppose the true God, and exalt himself above the true God.  The non-discerning Christian and the lost person won't have a clue as to what is happening.  At some point of the 7 year tribulation period, this demonic "son of perdition" will make that claim, and sit down in the Temple. 

 

Anyway, John, I don't know if this answers your questions or not....hopefully it does.

 

I recommend Larkin on this point.

 

In Christ,



#42 Covenanter

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 09:51 AM

What is very telling, however is that neither history, nor even Christian writers of the time, tell us who it was. History records much about when Epiphanes sat in the temple and profaned it-if Christians of the time saw this happen and recognized it as the fulfillment of such important prophecy, why is there not any record of it, of who it was and how it occurred?

 

Whatever difficulties we mayhave in identifying the man of sin, we have no difficulty in identifyingthe temple in question, nor should we question:

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2T 2:8)

It is what Jesus prophesied: 

What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. (Mark 12:9)

 

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (Mark 13:26)

 

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7)

 

What about Paul's "Man of Sin"?

 

The link includes hostile comments.



#43 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 10:22 AM

Whatever difficulties we mayhave in identifying the man of sin, we have no difficulty in identifyingthe temple in question, nor should we question:

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2T 2:8)

It is what Jesus prophesied: 

What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. (Mark 12:9)

 

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (Mark 13:26)

 

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7)

 

What about Paul's "Man of Sin"?

 

The link includes hostile comments.

Ian, Rev. 1:7 has not yet occurred, nor has Mark 13:26.  Nobody has seen the Son of Man coming in the Clouds, nor has EVERY EYE seen him.  It is yet future.



#44 John81

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 06:33 PM

OK, I'll try, but I will have to extend my comments beyond v. 4 to make sense of the passage.

V. 1 - Paul is "beseeching them" - that is he is appealing to their common believe that Jesus Christ would return, and that we would be gathered to Him.  This is the issue that binds them together, and that now he wants to address

 

v. 2 - This doctrine of the Lord's return should not shake us or trouble us.  The false doctrine that was being taught then, as seen in II Timothy 2:16-18 is that the resurrection had ALREADY OCCURED, and that it was a "spiritual resurrection" and not physical.  This false doctrine taught that the return of Jesus Christ was not LITERAL but "spiritual" in that Christ had "returned" spiritually in the hearts of the believers.  (That teaching is still with us today....).  Some people were apparently forging letters in Paul's name to advance this false doctrine.  We should not be troubled by them.  The Day of Christ is not a fearful thing for the believer, because (v. 1) we will be gathered to him.

 

v. 3 How then, and WHY should we not be troubled by this false doctrine?  Because the apostle Paul gives us clues as to the timing of "the Day of Christ."  There is no date setting here, so please do not think that I am an advocate of setting dates.  But we can discern the times and seasons, and we should be observant enough to see what is happening around us. 

1.  "except there come a falling away" - this is nothing more than an apostacy, a global apostacy.  It was Kenneth Wuest, the great Bible corrector who suggested that this is a reference to a pre-trib rapture, and he did so by running to "the Greek."  But the rapture of the church is never referred to as a "falling away" but rather as a "catching up."  We don't FALL off the earth, the Lord TAKES us off the earth.  This is a false interpretation of the text. 

2.  It refers to a great "falling away" from the truth, as is evident from the rest of the text (see v. 9-12 - "lying wonders, deceivableness, believe a lie, etc.").  It is my opinion that we are living in those days, because the apostacy is now evident within our own circles, and across the globe, according to the accounts I receive from missionaries.  When those who have historically been the guardians of the truth (i.e. the Baptists) start falling into apostacy in regards to Bible doctrine and Bible practice, then that should be a clear indicator of where we are!

3.  The next clue is that the "man of sin" would be revealed.  Historically, the Baptists and even men like Martin Luther identified the Pope as the Antichrist, and the man of sin.  I happen to think that they are correct.  The point here is that if in fact the prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD, as some suggest, then the church would have known who the "man of sin" was.  Since there is no record of this identity by the early church, then it cannot be so.  It must point to a future event, Ian's comments notwithstanding. 

So what else does the Bible say about this man?  Revelation 13 tells us that this "beast" will have a deadly wound that will be healed.  To summarize what I believe, I believe the "man of sin" is killed, and resurrected somehow demonically, and at that point he becomes the "son of perdition."  The "son of perdition" is the antithesis to "the son of God." 

The Bible refers to two mysteries regarding this subject:  The mystery of Godliness (I Timothy 3:16), and the mystery of iniquity.  Just as we can never fully understand in our finite minds how Jesus Christ could be all God and all man at the same time, and then die physically to be later resurrected, so can we never fully understand how a man could be "the son of perdition".  That is, this person will be 100% human, but also 100% DEVIL at the same time.  The son of perdition is the exact opposite of Jesus Christ. 

Thus, I believe the text here means that the man of sin will be revealed AS the son of perdition.  While we have seen many "antichrists" in the world, this man will be THE antichrist referred to in Rev. 13.

 

4.  We are not to allow ourselves to be troubled until we see this revealing - or unveiling.  Now this opens up another question - will believers know who the antichrist is before the rapture?  I think so.  I believe the HOly Spirit will identify him to the church prior to our "catching away".  But the world will only see this demonic character as the "messiah" who will bring in world peace (Rev. 6).

 

Verse 4 - How can we identify this "man of sin?"  He claims to be God.  His claim is so strong that he proves it by entering into a physical building that the Jews refer to as "the temple" (i.e. this is not a spiritual application to our bodies), and this demonic man sits down in the Holy of Holies, on the mercy seat, and claims that he is God.  After all, if he was NOT God, would not the REAL God kill him???  This fits with Rev. 13:5 - the blasphemies that come out of the mouth of the resurrected "son of perdition."

 

I do not believe the church will be on the earth when he goes into the temple and sits down on the mercy seat.  I believe that it will be clear to the Bible-Believing Christian who this man is because he will oppose the true God, and exalt himself above the true God.  The non-discerning Christian and the lost person won't have a clue as to what is happening.  At some point of the 7 year tribulation period, this demonic "son of perdition" will make that claim, and sit down in the Temple. 

 

Anyway, John, I don't know if this answers your questions or not....hopefully it does.

 

I recommend Larkin on this point.

 

In Christ,

Thank you, this explains much. In doing some readings, I've noticed many pre-trib folks say the anti-Christ won't be revealed or known until after the rapture. Many also seem to skip over these verses while a few say this isn't referring to the rapture at all.

 

It would seem to me, if these verses are referring to the rapture then it would have to mean the antichrist would be revealed and known prior to any rapture of Christians.

 

More to think about. Thank you!



#45 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 07:01 PM

Thank you, this explains much. In doing some readings, I've noticed many pre-trib folks say the anti-Christ won't be revealed or known until after the rapture. Many also seem to skip over these verses while a few say this isn't referring to the rapture at all.

 

It would seem to me, if these verses are referring to the rapture then it would have to mean the antichrist would be revealed and known prior to any rapture of Christians.

 

More to think about. Thank you!

Praise the Lord!  Glad to know I can be useful from time to time!

 

In Christ,



#46 John81

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 07:05 PM

I've been pondering the meaning of this verse too.

 

“Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” - Revelation 1:3

 

This verse says "for the time is at hand". Is that to be taken literally or in some other way (if some other way, why and how do we know)?

 

This verse also says we are to "keep those things which are written therein". In what manner are we to "keep those things", and what exactly is this referring to?



#47 Eric Stahl

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 08:04 PM

When the Bride of Christ ("Church") is taken to meet Jesus "in the air" and taken to heaven,

and the indwelling Holy Spirit simultaneously removed, Satan and his angels will be cast to the earth.

It's all a matter of "timing".  It could happen at any moment.  Time is short.

 

beameup,

 

The devil and his bad angels will be cast to the earth at the blowing of the 7th trumpet judgment after the two witnesses have finished their 1260 day testamoney. When the devil gets to earth he will persecute Israel for a time, times and half a time or three and half years Revelation 12:7-14.

 

I believe that I will caught up to heaven before the tribulation starts.

 

Are you a mid trib rapture believer?



#48 beameup

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 08:13 PM

beameup,

 

The devil and his bad angels will be cast to the earth at the blowing of the 7th trumpet judgment after the two witnesses have finished their 1260 day testamoney. When the devil gets to earth he will persecute Israel for a time, times and half a time or three and half years Revelation 12:7-14.

 

I believe that I will caught up to heaven before the tribulation starts.

 

Are you a mid trib rapture believer?

No, pre-tribulation.  Actually, I tend to believe that the rapture will happen in sync with Ezekiel 38-39.

As well, I believe the Bride of Christ (Church) will witness the events of the Psalm 83 war which

will be a turning-point in world history and the catapulting of Israel to world prominance.



#49 Eric Stahl

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 04:00 AM

No, pre-tribulation.  Actually, I tend to believe that the rapture will happen in sync with Ezekiel 38-39.

As well, I believe the Bride of Christ (Church) will witness the events of the Psalm 83 war which

will be a turning-point in world history and the catapulting of Israel to world prominance.

 

 

 

Please read Daniel 11:35. The prophecy is for the end of time from Daniel 11:36 and on. The antichrist will sign a covenant to bring peace to the Middle East by dividing Israel. Revelation 11:1-2 tells us that Israel keeps all of Jerusalem and gets half of the temple mount to rebuild the temple.

 

Time of Psalm 83

 

Daniel 11:40-43a explains that the local Arab nations will break the treaty and attack. The treaty obligation will cause the antichrist to come to Israel’s defense. The Russians would come also but God turns them back till the Arabs are defeated then puts a hook in Russia's jaw and draws them down to be destroyed by the antichrist and the western powers.

 

 

 

 

Daniel 11:35-45
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

36 And the king(666) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds(((Western Powers))) with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land(((Israel))) for gain.

(((white horse)))
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south(((Egypt))) push at him: and the king of the north(((Syria))) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He(((666))) shall enter also into the glorious land(((Israel))), and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.(((Jordan)))
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43a But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt:


(((Red Horse Ezekiel 38:1-12)))

43b
and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east(((Persia))) and out of the north(((Russia and Turkey))) shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain(((Israel))); yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. (((The seat of the beast)))
 

When the Russian alliance comes against Israel the Western powers lead by the antichrist  will already be there.

 

 

 

Jeremiah 6:22-23

22 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north(((Russia))) country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.

23They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion


Edited by Eric Stahl, 10 September 2013 - 04:05 AM.


#50 Covenanter

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 08:55 AM

None of your replies have attempted to address the FACT that Paul was writing in AD 50 about the temple then standing.



#51 John81

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:38 AM

I've been pondering the meaning of this verse too.

 

“Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” - Revelation 1:3

 

This verse says "for the time is at hand". Is that to be taken literally or in some other way (if some other way, why and how do we know)?

 

This verse also says we are to "keep those things which are written therein". In what manner are we to "keep those things", and what exactly is this referring to?

Anyone know of these matters?



#52 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 01:07 PM

Anyone know of these matters?

Working on it....kinda busy....I'll write something after some prayer, research and meditation.



#53 Ukulelemike

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 02:06 PM

None of your replies have attempted to address the FACT that Paul was writing in AD 50 about the temple then standing.

Not necessarily true-of course, except for believers who knoew of Jesus' words about the temple falling, most believed the temple was the temple was the temple-such a grand thing could never fall, surely. Yet, they believed that about Solomon's temple, as well, and it fell, yet the temple of Nehemiah was no less 'the temple' than the temple of Solomon or the 'improved' temple of Herod the Great. And if there is to be a third temple, (I believe it will be so), then it will be, at least in some way, 'the temple', as well, though the presence of the Lord will not be there. And of course, that will make it much easier for the antichrist to come and stand in the holy of holies and declare himself to be God.



#54 Covenanter

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 04:17 PM

I've been pondering the meaning of this verse too.

 

“Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” - Revelation 1:3

 

This verse says "for the time is at hand". Is that to be taken literally or in some other way (if some other way, why and how do we know)?

 

This verse also says we are to "keep those things which are written therein". In what manner are we to "keep those things", and what exactly is this referring to?

"At hand" is used in Scripture when the events in question are near in time - See Blue letter Bible:

 

Note the Zephaniah ref. when prophesies the judgment of Judah by the Chaldeans:

1:I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; .... 

.....

Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

....

14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, .....

Zeph prophesied in the days of Josiah, a few years before the invasion.

 

Why should we not think John (in Rev) is prophesying the AD 70 destruction by the Romans. Note what God says to Habakkuk at about the same time as Zeph:

1:Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's.

Habakkuk ends his argument with the LORD with the prayer:

3:O Lord, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.

 

I'm sure they did't dismiss the prophecies as "end times stuff - we'll be dead or raptured outa here long before the things that are 'at hand' happen."

 

God gives his warning for the hearers to take action - & if the message is for a distant generation he says so - as in Hab. 2, or Dan. 9.



#55 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 06:04 PM

"At hand" is used in Scripture when the events in question are near in time - See Blue letter Bible:

 

Note the Zephaniah ref. when prophesies the judgment of Judah by the Chaldeans:

1:I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; .... 

.....

Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

....

14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, .....

Zeph prophesied in the days of Josiah, a few years before the invasion.

 

Why should we not think John (in Rev) is prophesying the AD 70 destruction by the Romans. Note what God says to Habakkuk at about the same time as Zeph:

1:Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's.

Habakkuk ends his argument with the LORD with the prayer:

3:O Lord, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.

 

I'm sure they did't dismiss the prophecies as "end times stuff - we'll be dead or raptured outa here long before the things that are 'at hand' happen."

 

God gives his warning for the hearers to take action - & if the message is for a distant generation he says so - as in Hab. 2, or Dan. 9.

Because, contrary to the preterist fantasy, John did not write until 96 AD - or thereabouts. 

II Peter 3:8 is still in the Bible, and indicates to us that the way God counts time, and the way we count time are two different things.  From the Lord's perspective, it is "at hand" even if that means 2,000 years in our time - it is just moments for Him.


Edited by Steve Schwenke, 10 September 2013 - 06:05 PM.


#56 Covenanter

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 03:19 AM

Because, contrary to the preterist fantasy, John did not write until 96 AD - or thereabouts. 

II Peter 3:8 is still in the Bible, and indicates to us that the way God counts time, and the way we count time are two different things.  From the Lord's perspective, it is "at hand" even if that means 2,000 years in our time - it is just moments for Him.

 

Where does Scripture teach an AD 96 date for Revelation?

 

Have you even looked at the various references to "at hand" in Scripture?

 

Why should God say "at hand" when he means an indefinite time in the future - in fact thousands of years?

 

How could John's immediate hearers - "companions in tribulation" keep those things which are written therein when the whole prophecy was nothing to do with them, or even any Christians, who were going to  be raptured before the great tribulation?

 

And what does God mean by things which must shortly come to pass?

 

Did Jesus not know when he told John "shortly" and "at hand" that he had no idea of thetimescale involved - a timescale that YOU know all about ???? Actually he prophesied that This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. He did know the time scale for the prophesied events, but during his life on earth did not know the timing of the end of heaven & earth. That timing is, of course, known by God, & he would not allow clear & obvious terms to be used with a totally different meaning - still tell his readers to keep them.

 

I believe the Bible - YOU follow bizarre & fantastic interpretations imposed on it by your dispy sources.



#57 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:39 AM

WHere does Scripture teach an AD 50 date for Revelation? 

Your system introduces obvious contradictions to Scriptures, and overlooks the plain, literal interpretation of many passages.

 

Been round this bush before....

 

moving on...



#58 Covenanter

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 08:27 AM

Steve S -

Covenanter

 

WHere does Scripture teach an AD 50 date for Revelation? 

Nowhere. As an early letter, 1 & 2 Thes are around AD 50, during his second missionary journey. A pre-70 date for Revelation is readily understood from the opening chapter (shortly, at hand) & the fact that the temple was still standing & Jerusalem not yet destroyed. (Rev. 11) together with other prophetic allusions.  

 

Your system introduces obvious contradictions to Scriptures, and overlooks the plain, literal interpretation of many passages.

On the contrary, I look for a literal, contextual understanding of Scripture rather than imposing a dispy paradigm that rejects the context. The moment you say "interpretation" the literal reading is rejected.

   

Been round this bush before....

We have, but you have NEVER addressed the simple questions of the plain meaning of Scripture - words such as "shortly" & "at hand." Instead you totally misapply 2 Peter 3. That verse was never intended to teach us that God's time statements are meaningless. You make no attempt to answer my posts from Scripture - e.g. #54 above.

 

The coming of Jesus for final resurrection & judgment is indefinite - the 1,000 years need not be considered precise, but as Peter explains, its a period of grace to allow repence of the nations, just as the 40 years was a period of grace for the repentance of the Jews. But the 40 years did end, and so will the milllennium of grace.

 

2 Peter3:But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.



#59 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:35 PM

WHere does Scripture teach an AD 50 date for Revelation? 

Nowhere. As an early letter, 1 & 2 Thes are around AD 50, during his second missionary journey. A pre-70 date for Revelation is readily understood from the opening chapter (shortly, at hand) & the fact that the temple was still standing & Jerusalem not yet destroyed. (Rev. 11) together with other prophetic allusions.  

 

THis is just too funny for words. 

You ask me where I get a 96 AD date for Revelation, and when I ask you the same question about 50 AD, you say "nowhere." 

So where does that leave us? 

Your preterist friends have invented a date that suits their theological bent, in defiance of all other educated guesses. 

 

Ironic - you challenge my assertion of 96 AD, yet you have no conclusive evidence to the contrary.

Your system introduces obvious contradictions to Scriptures, and overlooks the plain, literal interpretation of many passages.

On the contrary, I look for a literal, contextual understanding of Scripture rather than imposing a dispy paradigm that rejects the context. The moment you say "interpretation" the literal reading is rejected.

 

Brother, we have had discussions in the past about eschatology, and it is fruitless.  I have repeated demonstrated that you reject their clear meaning of a passage, and insist on shoving prophecy into the past.  I am not going to get into another "shoot out" with you. 

Been round this bush before....

We have, but you have NEVER addressed the simple questions of the plain meaning of Scripture - words such as "shortly" & "at hand." Instead you totally misapply 2 Peter 3. That verse was never intended to teach us that God's time statements are meaningless. You make no attempt to answer my posts from Scripture - e.g. #54 above.

 

Maybe - I do not remember ever single issue we have covered.  Br. John81 asked for advice on Revelation 1:3 - which I have not yet given.  All I have said so far is that God does not measure time like we do.  I used II Peter 3:8 - not as an absolute time measurement.  I purposefully left my comment open-ended, and merely tried to illustrate by the word of God that "at hand" to the Lord can mean more than 20 years - it might mean several thousand years, or hundred years, or any number of years.  We are to look at it from God's timetable, not ours.  Our life is but a vapor (James 4).  So on God's timetable, our life span is nothing.  Thus, "at hand" does not necessarily mean "in my lifetime." 

 

I am not going to get into a running debate with you about this things for many different reasons, which I will not go into here.  So make all the accusations you want - don't count on me to respond to them.

 

In Christ,



#60 Covenanter

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:46 AM

I will reply to a specific point - if Steve doesn't read it, it may be helpful to others to know that his evasion of key questions is totally unhelpful to an understanding of Scripture.

 

Steve:

"THis is just too funny for words. 

You ask me where I get a 96 AD date for Revelation, and when I ask you the same question about 50 AD, you say "nowhere." 

So where does that leave us? 

Your preterist friends have invented a date that suits their theological bent, in defiance of all other educated guesses. 

Ironic - you challenge my assertion of 96 AD, yet you have no conclusive evidence to the contrary."

 

I do know where the 96 AD date comes from - a dubious & ambiguous quotation from Irenaeus in the second C, known only in Latin translation from the Greek, made 150 years later.

 

Regarding 50 AD, that date I have applied to the letters to the Thessalonians, NOT Revelation. The Scriptural evidence is that Revelation was before 70 AD, and relates to those dreadful events.

 

The prophesied events were "shortly" and "at hand" and Rev. was specifically written for the blessing of obedient readers - who were John's companions in tribulation. That precludes an "end times" fulfilment, when believers have been "raptured" off the scene.

 

Rev. 1:7 quotes Jesus' words in Mat. 24, concerning the destruction, and to the Sanhedrin (Mat. 26:64) quoting Dan. 7:13.

 

"Earth" (translation of "ge") is used with many different meanings, often but not always, clear from the context, ranging from soil (depth of earth) to the land of Israel or the whole planet. There is a tendency to speak of "eretz Israel" (Heb.) for the land of Israel, whereas eretz is often translated "earth."  We should not automatically think of the planet, but of the land of Israel.

 

We can therefore validly understand: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.  as referring specifically to the tribes of the land of Israel, & the generation that pieced him. Zechariah is quoted by John. They certainly did wail when temple, & Jerusalem & its defenders were destroyed.

 

That's just a start. The letters in 2 & 3 were to real living churches, with application to all churches & Christians down the centuries.

 

 

 

 

 






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