Considering The Texts - John 14:1-4

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...  in three sentences. ...

Explain how you arrive at "God is Love" and "Just", with God being the one who tortures the wicked [even children] eternally, never letting them actually die, thus prolonging their miserable existence and their sinning into eternity?

 

I had thought that the wages for sin was death, being the second death.

 

How do you explain that the wicked have this everlasting/eternal/immortal life?

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Moses slept in death and was resurrected by Jesus and then taken to Heaven.This is read into the Bible, an assumption not there based on a false premise.

 

Elijah was taken to Heaven without seeing the sleep of death.  True.

 

Samuel is sleeping in death, and was never actually contacted by King Saul.  It was a devil masquerading as Samuel.  What King Saul did was speak with a familiar spirit through a spirit medium/witch. The Bible says it was Samuel, multiple times-this explains the response of fear by the witch of Endor, who would be expecting a familiar spirit, and not Samuel himself. Remember, Saul couldn't see him, only the witch. So there would be no reason for the witch to cry in fear upon seeing him. As well, a demon would not be able to accurately tell Saul about his pending death-but Samuel, with permission of the Lord, was able to. It was also by the appearance of Samuel, not her familiar, that caused the witch to recognize Saul for who he was.

 

Rich man and Lazarus is a symbolic parable, as those parables began in Luke 14. All parables are based upon truth-When the Lord says, "There was such and such", we can believe there WAS, "such and such", because the Lord doesn't lie. Even IF the rich man and Lazarus were created characters to make a point, Jesus never used false ideas, which this would be if there was no such place of the wicked and the good after this life. You accuse Jesus of telling, not a parable, but of making a point based upon a lie. He might as well have told a parable about men on Mars. NO, ALL of Jesus' parables are grounded in truth and reality: farming, fishing, householding, hell and so forth-to take a fantasy setting and use it for a teaching moment would cause Him to lose credibility.

 

Paul didn't actually die when stoned, though some may still believe he did.  The connection with Paul's saying in 2 Corinthians 12:2 is not referring back to Paul's stoning contextually.  We can also consider the saying of Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 in the timing of the little word "and". "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Yes, that little word, "and", makes it clear that Paul is keeping the same thought complete as one thought-absent from the body, AND to be present with the Lord-once we are absent from the body, which you believe never happens at all, if I am correct, being the standard SDA doctrine, that the Spirit is not separate from the body, then this verse still disproves that idea. Paul desires to be absent from the body AND present with the Lord, both of whoich happen at death for the believer. Remeber, as well, that Jesus told the thief on the cross, "I tell thee, TODAY, thou shalt be with me in Paradise." And please, don't try the thin idea of moving the comma to make it say, I tell thee today, thou shalt be with me in Paradise." That's poor English-and why would Jesus have to specify that He was telling the thief "today", because obviously he was telling him that day. Would this be as opposed to "I tell you tomorrow, thou shalt be with me in paradise". No, He told the thief that they woule be in paradise TODAY-that very day.  The same paradise that the Lazarus was in.

 

 

Read the very next verse in Acts, it says Stephen himself fell on sleep. Indeed, but Stephen himself expoected his spirit to be 'received'; where would he get such an idea? It is the body that sleeps, the spirit that is received into glory

 

All of the texts which speak about the sleep of death, refer to the person themselves.

 

The body returns to dust.  The breath of God returns to Himself, since it is His breath, not ours. The breath-you mean the spirit, the 'pneuma'-that is not just bresath as you claim, but is the person himself. Example: Gen 41:8, the spirit of Pharoah was troubled within him-his breath was troubled?

Gen 45:27, Jacobs breath was revivied in him? No, his spirit

Ex 28:3-God filled men with the breath of wisdom? No, the spirit of wisdom.

Ex 31:3: "And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,"

Ex 35:21: And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing,

How about some New Testament verses?

Acts 19:21 Paul purposed in his breath? or his spirit? His spirit. How does one purpose to do something in his breath?

Acts 20:22: Paul was bound in his SPIRIT unto Jerusalem. Breath?

Rom 1:9: For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Rom 2:29: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

 

Which one would you like to look at first in detail?  You pick.

Now, I could go on and on and on with examples that show that the spirit is far more than the breath-the spirit is the heart, the very being of man, and yes, it beloebgs to the Lord if one is a believer, and at death it ODES go on to the Lord, but it is not breath, it is the person, himself. The body sleeps in the dust, even though that sleep may last until it is but dust, but it is still but sleep, for the Lord will raise it again one day in glory, and the dead, the lost, will be raised in corruption and dishonor. Notice, again, in 1Thes 4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. It isn't just that Jesus, (God) will raise them, but He will BRING them with Him. Where does Jesus come from in these scriptures? "The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout" (vs 16) If the Lord is descending from heaven and is said here to bring those who sleep WITH HIM, then where are those sleeping coming from? Clearly from HEAVEN, otherwise the Lord could not be bringing them with Him. Now, indeed, He calls up their bodies, sleeping in the graves, and they will meet with their spirits with the Lord, and then those who are alive and remain will be immediately changed, never having slept at all. Let's read it all in context, so I can't be said to be picking and choosing.

 

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (emphasis mine)

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

So, the dead, who sleep in Christ, the Lord will bring with Him AND they shall rise first? How can this be? Only if the spirit of those who sleep is already in Heaven with Him, to return with Him, and their bodies, sleeping in the dust, rise to meet with them.

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Now, I could go on and on and on with examples that show that the spirit is far more than the breath-the spirit is the heart, the very being of man, and yes, it beloebgs to the Lord if one is a believer, and at death it ODES go on to the Lord, but it is not breath, it is the person, himself. The body sleeps in the dust, even though that sleep may last until it is but dust, but it is still but sleep, for the Lord will raise it again one day in glory, and the dead, the lost, will be raised in corruption and dishonor. Notice, again, in 1Thes 4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. It isn't just that Jesus, (God) will raise them, but He will BRING them with Him. Where does Jesus come from in these scriptures? "The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout" (vs 16) If the Lord is descending from heaven and is said here to bring those who sleep WITH HIM, then where are those sleeping coming from? Clearly from HEAVEN, otherwise the Lord could not be bringing them with Him. Now, indeed, He calls up their bodies, sleeping in the graves, and they will meet with their spirits with the Lord, and then those who are alive and remain will be immediately changed, never having slept at all. Let's read it all in context, so I can't be said to be picking and choosing.

 

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (emphasis mine)

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

So, the dead, who sleep in Christ, the Lord will bring with Him AND they shall rise first? How can this be? Only if the spirit of those who sleep is already in Heaven with Him, to return with Him, and their bodies, sleeping in the dust, rise to meet with them.

Well Ukulelemike,

 

Perhaps next time, you might choose the option to look at a single text/passage, and without misunderstandings about what was stated [never was it said that the Parable of Luke 16 was not true or based on truth :) ], instead.  It was offered.  Since the response was not to a single, but to everything, I will now have to respond to everything before we may continue.  Therefore, please be patient, and wait until the reponses are given to each text/passage.  I will not be replying to anything further until this section is replied to in all of its points.

 

I hope you will actually read the responses [there will be several in depth responses to each text/passage], since I have read yours in full.

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Well Ukulelemike,

 

Perhaps next time, you might choose the option to look at a single text/passage, and without misunderstandings about what was stated [never was it said that the Parable of Luke 16 was not true or based on truth :) ], instead.  It was offered.  Since the response was not to a single, but to everything, I will now have to respond to everything before we may continue.  Therefore, please be patient, and wait until the reponses are given to each text/passage.  I will not be replying to anything further until this section is replied to in all of its points.

 

I hope you will actually read the responses [there will be several in depth responses to each text/passage], since I have read yours in full.

Perhaps you never staed the parable in Luke was not based on truth, but if it IS based on truth, ei, a true place, a true situation in which any might find themselves, thus a warning of the same to all readers, it negates the theory of soul-sleep. IF Jesus spoke of a real place and real people, which I firmly believe He did, else He lied, then there is a real place of conscious torments where the lost will spend their time until the final judgment, when they will be cast into the lake of fire, and there is a real place of conscious bliss and peace where the believer will spend eternity, be it in Heaven after death until the resurrection, or the New Earth upon the passing away of the former Heavens and earth.

 

As well, I replied to the many examples you gave. Please take your time.

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Let's just get down to brass tacks, shall we?  

 

Banner, upon what do you lay your hopes of eternal life? The Bible tells us this in 1John:

 

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (emphasis mine).

 

So I ask you, do you KNOW you have eternal life? If so, what do you base it upon? What is getting 'Banner Over Me Was Love' into glory for eternity?  CAN you KNOW, of assurity, that you DO have life eternal? See, we're spending all this time and effort arguning various doctrines, but this is really the most important one there is. Its the reason the entireity of the Bible was written: that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE, (not will have, but have) eternal life, and that ye may believe ON the name of the Son of God.

 

I believe, because I have been saved by grace through faith on the name of Jesus Christ, that I HAVE already eternal life, that it is a part of me, not because of me or any great thing I have done, but because God loved me, a sinner bound for hell, and He showed me my lost state, and I humbly repented of my sin and confessed before Him my sin, and was that moment a child of God, adopted intpo the family of God. And no matter how I may try, (though I generally dont), I can never again NOT be part of that family, any more than I can never be a part of my human family. And though I may wander as the prodigal son, yet the Father ever awaits me, His child, in my wanderings, to return.

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Find a parable that names people by name - there isn't one.

The account of the rich man and Lazarus is no parable - it is a true account.

Just because you want it to be a parable doesn't make it one.

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Find a parable that names people by name - there isn't one.

The account of the rich man and Lazarus is no parable - it is a true account.

Just because you want it to be a parable doesn't make it one.

I agree-but even IF...IF it WAS a parable, all the parable of Jesus are firmly rooted in fact-thus, if Jesus said some rich guy died and opened his eyes in torments of flame, then indeed, there would HAVE to be a place of conscious torment of flame. And if the Lord said, even in a parable, that even an unnamed man died and was carried by the angels to be conforted in the bosom of Abraham, where the poor man and Abraham were able to carry on a conversation with the rich man in torments, though they were in peace, then indeed, there would HAVE to be such a place and possible situation, for no other reason than that Jesus said there was. And of course, in the context, it is immediate, not long after lying in the grave-the rich man died AND opening his eyes in torment, Lazarus died AND was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.  

 

But I agree that this is no mere parable-this is an event that occurred that Jesus, being God, witnessed personally. Is there a lesson to it? Absolutely-a warning that the Pharisees and others like them would reject Jesus, even though He raised from the dead, (as they would another Lazarus who was raised from the dead). Instead of rejoicing over such miracles, because they were blinded by their riches and positions and power, they would reject the truth, clearly set before their eyes, and hold to lies to maintain their temporal riches and power. But again, it wasn't just a simple parable as you say. Amen!

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[Banner Over Me Was Love] Samuel is sleeping in death, and was never actually contacted by King Saul.  It was a devil masquerading as Samuel.  What King Saul did was speak with a familiar spirit through a spirit medium/witch
 
[Ukulelemike] The Bible says it was Samuel, multiple times-this explains the response of fear by the witch of Endor, who would be expecting a familiar spirit, and not Samuel himself. Remember, Saul couldn't see him, only the witch. So there would be no reason for the witch to cry in fear upon seeing him. As well, a demon would not be able to accurately tell Saul about his pending death-but Samuel, with permission of the Lord, was able to. It was also by the appearance of Samuel, not her familiar, that caused the witch to recognize Saul for who he was.

 

The Claim:  Samuel the Prophet wasn’t sleeping (1 Sam. 28:7-19)

 

Here are the texts and immediate local context of 1 Samuel 28:1-25; 31:1-13; 2 Samuel 1:1-4,23; 1 Chronicles 10:1-14.

 

1 SAMUEL 28:1-25

 

And it came to pass in those days, that the Philistines gathered their armies together for warfare, to fight with Israel. And Achish said unto David, Know thou assuredly, that thou shalt go out with me to battle, thou and thy men. 1 Samuel 28:1

 

And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever. 1 Samuel 28:2

 

Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. 1 Samuel 28:3

 

And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa. 1 Samuel 28:4

 

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. 1 Samuel 28:5

 

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. 1 Samuel 28:6

 

Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, [there is] a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 1 Samuel 28:7

 

And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee. 1 Samuel 28:8

 

And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 1 Samuel 28:9

 

And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 1 Samuel 28:10

 

Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 1 Samuel 28:11

 

And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou [art] Saul. 1 Samuel 28:12

 

And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 1 Samuel 28:13

 

And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself. 1 Samuel 28:14

 

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 1 Samuel 28:15

 

Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 1 Samuel 28:16

 

And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, [even] to David: 1 Samuel 28:17

 

Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 1 Samuel 28:18

 

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 1 Samuel 28:19

 

Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night. 1 Samuel 28:20

 

And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me. 1 Samuel 28:21

 

Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way. 1 Samuel 28:22

 

But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed. 1 Samuel 28:23

 

And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded [it], and did bake unleavened bread thereof: 1 Samuel 28:24

 

And she brought [it] before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night. 1 Samuel 28:25

 

 

1 SAMUEL 31:1-13

 

Now the Philistines fought against Israel: and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa. 1 Samuel 31:1

 

And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul's sons. 1 Samuel 31:2

 

And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers. 1 Samuel 31:3

 

Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 1 Samuel 31:4

 

And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him. 1 Samuel 31:5

 

So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together. 1 Samuel 31:6

 

And when the men of Israel that [were] on the other side of the valley, and [they] that [were] on the other side Jordan, saw that the men of Israel fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, they forsook the cities, and fled; and the Philistines came and dwelt in them. 1 Samuel 31:7

 

And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his three sons fallen in mount Gilboa. 1 Samuel 31:8

 

And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish [it in] the house of their idols, and among the people. 1 Samuel 31:9

 

And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan. 1 Samuel 31:10

 

And when the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead heard of that which the Philistines had done to Saul; 1 Samuel 31:11

 

All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there. 1 Samuel 31:12

 

And they took their bones, and buried [them] under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days. 1 Samuel 31:13

 

 

2 SAMUEL 1:1-4,23

 

Now it came to pass after the death of Saul, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Amalekites, and David had abode two days in Ziklag; 2 Samuel 1:1

 

It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and [so] it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance. 2 Samuel 1:2

 

And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped. 2 Samuel 1:3

 

And David said unto him, How went the matter? I pray thee, tell me. And he answered, That the people are fled from the battle, and many of the people also are fallen and dead; and Saul and Jonathan his son are dead also. 2 Samuel 1:4

 

...

 

Saul and Jonathan [were] lovely and pleasant in their lives, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions. 2 Samuel 1:23

 

 

1 CHRONICLES 10:1-14

 

Now the Philistines fought against Israel; and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa. 1 Chronnicles 10:1

 

And the Philistines followed hard after Saul, and after his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, the sons of Saul. 1 Chronicles 10:2

 

And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him, and he was wounded of the archers. 1 Chronicles 10:3

 

Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 1 Chronicles 10:4

 

And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise on the sword, and died. 1 Chronicles 10:5

 

So Saul died, and his three sons, and all his house died together. 1 Chronicles 10:6

 

And when all the men of Israel that [were] in the valley saw that they fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, then they forsook their cities, and fled: and the Philistines came and dwelt in them. 1 Chronicles 10:7

 

And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his sons fallen in mount Gilboa. 1 Chronicles 10:8

 

And when they had stripped him, they took his head, and his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to carry tidings unto their idols, and to the people. 1 Chronicles 10:9

 

And they put his armour in the house of their gods, and fastened his head in the temple of Dagon. 1 Chronicles 10:10

 

And when all Jabeshgilead heard all that the Philistines had done to Saul, 1 Chronicles 10:11

 

They arose, all the valiant men, and took away the body of Saul, and the bodies of his sons, and brought them to Jabesh, and buried their bones under the oak in Jabesh, and fasted seven days. 1 Chronicles 10:12

 

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, [even] against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking [counsel] of [one that had] a familiar spirit, to enquire [of it]; 1 Chronicles 10:13

 

And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. 1 Chronicles 10:14

 

 

Before we see what we may gain from these texts, we shall consider the background leading up to these events, as they have a direct bearing upon the last events of Saul before his death:

 

God, after taking out of the world for Himself a peculiar and chosen people [Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 14:2, 26:18; Psalms 135:4; even as we Christians are called to be Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 2:9], Israel [Deuteronomy 4:20], so ruled directly over the children of Israel in a Heavenly Theocracy [Divine Government], “before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.” [Genesis 36:31]. After some time had passed, and the hearts of the people began to turn away from the Lord, there was the time of the periods of the Judges [see book of Judges] and “In those days [there was] no king in Israel, [but] every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes.” [Judges 17:6; see also Judges 21:25], but at the end of the periods of these Judges came the sons of old prophet/seer [1 Samuel 9:9,18,19] Samuel, “And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel.” [1 Samuel 8:1], which “...walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.” [1 Samuel 8:3]. This brought the people to sin further by asking for them a human King over them [“...that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness [is] great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.” [1 Samuel 12:17]] instead of God, “Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,” [1 Samuel 8:4]; “And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.” [1 Samuel 8:5] and the peoples “refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;” [1 Samuel 8:19]; “That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.” [1 Samuel 8:20] and so a human king of Israel was to be chosen by God over them, “And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.” [1 Samuel 8:22].

 

Such a human king over Israel was to be chosen, and so it was that person “whose name [was] Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and [there was] not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward [he was] higher than any of the people.” [1 Samuel 9:2] of whom was found of the tribe of Benjamin [1 Samuel 9:1,2], being “a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin?” [1 Samuel 9:21], for Samuel had already known of the person even before he came [1 Samuel 9:15,19,20], for God had told Samuel, “To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him [to be] captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.” [1 Samuel 9:16]; “And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over my people.” [1 Samuel 9:17].

 

This Saul, though “a choice young man, and a goodly” and tall, even “higher than any of the people”, was at the first humble and shy, obedient in seeking the counsel of God, even at the feet of the prophet of the Lord, Samuel [1 Samuel 9:18,19], “(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for [he that is] now [called] a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)” [1 Samuel 9:9]; “Then said Saul to his servant, Well said; come, let us go. So they went unto the city where the man of God [was].” [1 Samuel 9:10]; and when Saul was told that it was upon him and all his “father's house” that “all the desire of Israel” [1 Samuel 9:20] rested, that “...Saul answered and said, [Am] not I a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin? wherefore then speakest thou so to me?” [1 Samuel 9:21]. When told what to do by the prophet Samuel, Saul at the first listened and obeyed, and so became the anointed of the Lord and made King over Israel, even prophesying and given a new heart: “[And] as they were going down to the end of the city, Samuel said to Saul, Bid the servant pass on before us, (and he passed on,) but stand thou still a while, that I may shew thee the word of God.” [1 Samuel 9:27]; “Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured [it] upon his head, and kissed him, and said, [Is it] not because the LORD hath anointed thee [to be] captain over his inheritance?” [1 Samuel 10:1]; “And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.” [1 Samuel 10:6]; “And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, [that] thou do as occasion serve thee; for God [is] with thee.” [1 Samuel 10:7]; “And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, [and] to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.” [1 Samuel 10:8]; “And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.” [1 Samuel 10:9], and yet he was still meek and shy enough that when all the people asked after Saul, they could not find him, for he was in hiding, “Therefore they enquired of the LORD further, if the man should yet come thither. And the LORD answered, Behold, he hath hid himself among the stuff.” [1 Samuel 10:22] and the people “...they ran and fetched him thence: and when he stood among the people, he was higher than any of the people from his shoulders and upward.” [1 Samuel 10:23] and so “...all the people went to Gilgal; and there they made Saul king before the LORD in Gilgal; and there they sacrificed sacrifices of peace offerings before the LORD; and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly.” [1 Samuel 11:15]

 

But already there was a forewarning by God, that if they would not obey Him, He would not protect them, “But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as [it was] against your fathers.” [1 Samuel 12:15]; “But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king.” [1 Samuel 12:25]. It is here that we have the foreshadowing of the downfall of King Saul and the peoples, from exalted by grace to abased in disgrace.

 

Though Saul at the early outset of his kingship, “Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel,” [1 Samuel 13:1], was walking with the Lord, he began to become impatient and take things into his own control, and when his sin made known, to make excuses for them, and so we see that the Kingdom was to be taken from him and given to another, even prophesied of Samuel, long before any 'spirit' 'summoned' of the witch of Endor said anything:

 

And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel [had appointed]: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him.” [1 Samuel 13:8]; “And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering.” [1 Samuel 13:9]; “And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him.” [1 Samuel 13:10]; “And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and [that] thou camest not within the days appointed, and [that] the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;” [1 Samuel 13:11]; “Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.” [1 Samuel 13:12]; “And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.” [1 Samuel 13:13]; “But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him [to be] captain over his people, because thou hast not kept [that] which the LORD commanded thee.” [1 Samuel 13:14]

 

All false worship is made in such a way, where it has the appearance and semblance of true religion and of acceptance with God, yet it does not, for it is even after the way of Cain [Genesis 4:5], even as it will be in the end, true worship vs the false [see Revelation 12-18, etc; “worship”].

 

Saul also began to make foolish oaths and human tests not appointed of God, which endangered the health of the people, even his own son Jonathan, which were only his, by permission, gift and stewardship of God. Thus it was that we see Saul, instead of being sacrificial for the people and their wellbeing, made them to suffer for his honor, that he would be avenged upon his enemies:

 

And the men of Israel were distressed that day: for Saul had adjured the people, saying, Cursed [be] the man that eateth [any] food until evening, that I may be avenged on mine enemies. So none of the people tasted [any] food.” [1 Samuel 14:24]; “Then answered one of the people, and said, Thy father straitly charged the people with an oath, saying, Cursed [be] the man that eateth [any] food this day. And the people were faint.” [1 Samuel 14:28]; “Then said Jonathan, My father hath troubled the land: see, I pray you, how mine eyes have been enlightened, because I tasted a little of this honey.” [1 Samuel 14:29]

 

This rashness, foolishness and sin of King Saul, thus led the people into sin [1 Samuel 14:33-34], for their faintness, they did which is forbidden of them to do, which it is forbidden for any follower of God to eat the blood [Leviticus 17:2; many, many texts, even in the New Testament, etc], and is a warning to all leadership [take ye heed ye leaders and under-shepherds of the flock of the Lord]:

 

And they smote the Philistines that day from Michmash to Aijalon: and the people were very faint.” [1 Samuel 14:31]; “And the people flew upon the spoil, and took sheep, and oxen, and calves, and slew [them] on the ground: and the people did eat [them] with the blood.” [1 Samuel 14:32]

 

Yet all was not yet lost for Saul, though the Kingdom was yet lost to him, he may have been forgiven, and had other chances, but in these he also did not obey, and made excuses, claiming to have obeyed, even unto the honor of God, but did not carry out the commands of the Lord:

 

Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee [to be] king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.” [1 Samuel 15:1]; “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” [1 Samuel 15:3]; “But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all [that was] good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing [that was] vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.” [1 Samuel 15:9]; “Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,” [1 Samuel 15:10]; “It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.” [1 Samuel 15:11]; “And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed [be] thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD.” [1 Samuel 15:13]; “And Samuel said, What [meaneth] then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?” [1 Samuel 15:14]; “And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.” [1 Samuel 15:15]; “Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on.” [1 Samuel 15:16]; “And Samuel said, When thou [wast] little in thine own sight, [wast] thou not [made] the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel?” [1 Samuel 15:17]; “And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.” [1 Samuel 15:18]; “Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?” [1 Samuel 15:19]; “And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.” [1 Samuel 15:20]; “But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.” [1 Samuel 15:21]; “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.” [1 Samuel 15:22]

 

But notice carefully these next words, for they have a great deal to do with the texts we are to consider more closely, “For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.” [1 Samuel 15:23]; for it is clear that the “rebellion” of Saul even led him unto utilizing “witchcraft” in the end.

 

Saul even acknowledges his sin before Samuel, saying that he sinned because he feared not God, but the people, “And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.” [1 Samuel 15:24], and since this was so, Saul was rejected as King over Israel by God, “Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.” [1 Samuel 15:25]; “And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.” [1 Samuel 15:26]. However Saul, like a little child, unwilling to accept the judgment, still rebelled, and tried to keep Samuel from leaving, and even tore the mantle of Samuel, “And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.” [1 Samuel 15:27], thus the Kingdom was rent from Saul that very day, “And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, [that is] better than thou.” [1 Samuel 15:28], though he would yet remain until his death. Samuel had to then carry out the Word of the Lord, which Saul refused to do, “And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.” [1 Samuel 15:33], and so we come to a very important text, which reveals that Samuel the prophet left Saul permanently, and came no more unto him at all and mourned for him, “And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.” [1 Samuel 15:33].

 

After this, wherein Saul rejected the counsel of God, and of the prophet and would no longer humble himself, and heed the Word of the Lord, another was to reign in his stead, even King David, since Saul had grieved away the Holy Spirit of God, and from that day forward, “an evil spirit” came continually and “troubled him”, and this is important to notice, as we come to the “familiar spirit” that later addresses him by the witch of Endor:

 

And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.” [1 Samuel 16:1]; “Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.” [1 Samuel 16:13]; “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” [1 Samuel 16:14]; “And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.” [1 Samuel 16:15]

 

From this point forward, Saul becomes worse in thought and deed, becoming increasingly jealous, and filled with a conspiratorial mind [1 Samuel 22:8] and plotting secretly and openly to murder the innocent King David by various means, even using his own daughter “Michal” in a plot, and also prophesying by “the evil spirit”:

 

And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed [but] thousands: and [what] can he have more but the kingdom?” [1 Samuel 18:8]; “And Saul eyed David from that day and forward.” [1 Samuel 18:9]; “And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand.” [1 Samuel 18:10]; “And Saul cast the javelin; for he said, I will smite David even to the wall [with it]. And David avoided out of his presence twice.” [1 Samuel 18:11]; “And Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, and was departed from Saul.” [1 Samuel 18:12]; “And Saul said to David, Behold my elder daughter Merab, her will I give thee to wife: only be thou valiant for me, and fight the LORD'S battles. For Saul said, Let not mine hand be upon him, but let the hand of the Philistines be upon him.” [1 Samuel 18:17]; “And Michal Saul's daughter loved David: and they told Saul, and the thing pleased him.” [1 Samuel 18:20]; “And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in [the one of] the twain.” [1 Samuel 18:21]; “And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies. But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines.” [1 Samuel 18:25]; “And Saul was yet the more afraid of David; and Saul became David's enemy continually.” [1 Samuel 18:29]

 

Saul continually attempted to murder King David, and even to involve his son Jonathan:

 

And Saul spake to Jonathan his son, and to all his servants, that they should kill David.” [1 Samuel 19:1]; “But Jonathan Saul's son delighted much in David: and Jonathan told David, saying, Saul my father seeketh to kill thee: now therefore, I pray thee, take heed to thyself until the morning, and abide in a secret [place], and hide thyself:” [1 Samuel 19:2]; “And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with [his] hand.” [1 Samuel 19:9]; “And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin; but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped that night.” [1 Samuel 19:10]; “Saul also sent messengers unto David's house, to watch him, and to slay him in the morning: and Michal David's wife told him, saying, If thou save not thy life to night, to morrow thou shalt be slain.” [1 Samuel 19:11]; “And Saul sent the messengers [again] to see David, saying, Bring him up to me in the bed, that I may slay him.” [1 Samuel 19:15]

 

However, Jonathan would not take part, and helped David to flee to Ramah, where the prophet Samuel was, and for this Saul became furious at Jonathan with abusive language and acts, seeking not the will of God to have another reign instead of the line of Saul, but he instead still sought to keep the throne and the line through Jonathan:

 

And David fled from Naioth in Ramah, and came and said before Jonathan, What have I done? what [is] mine iniquity? and what [is] my sin before thy father, that he seeketh my life?” [1 Samuel 20:1]; “Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious [woman], do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?” [1 Samuel 20:30]; “For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.” [1 Samuel 20:31]; “And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him: whereby Jonathan knew that it was determined of his father to slay David.” [1 Samuel 20:33]

 

King Saul even ordered the slaying of 85 of the priests of the LORD God which had helped King David in innocence, and also a whole city of Nob was attacked, killing men, women and children and babes and livestock:

 

And the king said, Thou shalt surely die, Ahimelech, thou, and all thy father's house.” [1 Samuel 22:16]; “And the king said unto the footmen that stood about him, Turn, and slay the priests of the LORD; because their hand also [is] with David, and because they knew when he fled, and did not shew it to me. But the servants of the king would not put forth their hand to fall upon the priests of the LORD.” [1 Samuel 22:17]; “And the king said to Doeg, Turn thou, and fall upon the priests. And Doeg the Edomite turned, and he fell upon the priests, and slew on that day fourscore and five persons that did wear a linen ephod.” [1 Samuel 22:18]; “And Nob, the city of the priests, smote he with the edge of the sword, both men and women, children and sucklings, and oxen, and asses, and sheep, with the edge of the sword.” [1 Samuel 22:19]; “And Abiathar shewed David that Saul had slain the LORD'S priests.” [1 Samuel 22:21]

 

Saul, even after all of this evil, still thought that He was in favor with God, even claiming that God was delivering King David into his hand, and thus we see a fulfillment of a principle, “the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.” [John 16:2], and thus we shall see this again at the last days, even soon to come, for those religionists which think they honor God in the “first [day] of the week” [sunday], but are in transgression of the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, even the 4th Commandment speaking of the 7th Day the Sabbath of the Lord thy God [Exodus 20:8-11], even deceived [Revelation 13:14], because they will have chosen such in opposition to God's Law [Psalms 119:126] and refused the counsel of God [Hosea 4:6] against themselves [Luke 7:30], refusing to leave Babylon the Great, that Mother of Harlots, of which God said, “Come out of her my people” [Revelation 18:4] will seek to eliminate [Revelation 13:12,15,16, 20:4] those which “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” [Revelation 14:12], even “hav[ing] the testimony of Jesus Christ” [Revelation 12:17]:

 

And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars.” [1 Samuel 23:7]

 

And so Saul, called even for “war” against King David, “And Saul called all the people together to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men.” [1 Samuel 23:8], and continually “secretly practised mischief against” [1 Samuel 23:9] King David, seeking “him every day” [1 Samuel 23:14] having “come out to seek his life” [1 Samuel 23:15], and “took three thousand men out of all Israel, and when to seek David and his men” [1 Samuel 24:2] pursuing David, and “huntest” the “soul” [living person] of David “to take it” [1 Samuel 24:11], for as it is written, “Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:...” [1 Samuel 24:13]. Whereas David sought not to harm Saul, “mine hand shall not be upon thee” [1 Samuel 24:12,13] Saul on the other hand, “have rewarded thee evil” [1 Samuel 24:17] of David. The LORD would both “judge” and “avenge” [1 Samuel 24:12].

 

Saul blamed everyone but himself for his choices,

 

“That all of you have conspired against me, and [there is] none that sheweth me that my son hath made a league with the son of Jesse, and [there is] none of you that is sorry for me, or sheweth unto me that my son hath stirred up my servant against me, to lie in wait, as at this day?” [1 Samuel 22:8]

 

Saul even after all these, and long before going to the witch of Endor, comes to acknowledge that David would be King,

 

“And now, behold, I know well that thou shalt surely be king, and that the kingdom of Israel shall be established in thine hand.” [1 Samuel 24:20]; “Swear now therefore unto me by the LORD, that thou wilt not cut off my seed after me, and that thou wilt not destroy my name out of my father's house.” [1 Samuel 24:21]; “And David sware unto Saul. And Saul went home; but David and his men gat them up unto the hold.” [1 Samuel 24:22]

 

Samuel the Prophet, afterward, then dies and the peoples buried him in Ramah,

 

“And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah. And David arose, and went down to the wilderness of Paran.” [1 Samuel 25:1]

 

Others of the land already recognize, long before the witch of Endor and her “familiar spirit”, that David is to be made King in Saul's stead:

 

I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the LORD, and evil hath not been found in thee [all] thy days.” [1 Samuel 25:28]; “Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, [as out] of the middle of a sling.” [1 Samuel 25:29]; “And it shall come to pass, when the LORD shall have done to my lord according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall have appointed thee ruler over Israel;” [1 Samuel 25:30]

 

Saul still sought to hurt David and takes his own daughter, Michal, David's wife and gives her to another in David's absence in the wilderness, “But Saul had given Michal his daughter, David's wife, to Phalti the son of Laish, which [was] of Gallim.” [1 Samuel 25:44], and David speaks in the wilderness, even a foretelling, “David said furthermore, [As] the LORD liveth, the LORD shall smite him; or his day shall come to die; or he shall descend into battle, and perish.” [1 Samuel 26:10]; and Saul, though as many times like Pharoah turns back, does not out of true repentance, but still his own words condemn him, “...I have sinned ... I have played the fool, and have erred exceedingly.” [1 Samuel 26:21]

 

Then came the Philistines and attacked Israel, and we come to the very texts we are to consider in regards to Samuel the Prophet, “And it came to pass in those days, that the Philistines gathered their armies together for warfare, to fight with Israel. And Achish said unto David, Know thou assuredly, that thou shalt go out with me to battle, thou and thy men.” [1 Samuel 28:1]

 

 

Let us see what we shall gain from these texts:

 

[1] Samuel had earlier commanded Saul, when he would then listen and obey the LORD, to remove all the wicked which practiced the occult from the land, “Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.” [1 Samuel 28:3], which was good to do [2 Kings 23:4] for all these which do these things are an “abomination” unto the LORD, and He would never use these methods to communicate to Saul. Any which used these practices were wicked [2 Chronicles 33:6; 2 Kings 21:6] with false counsel [Isaiah 19:3], for when God speaks to men, he uses Prophets [Amos 3:7], “And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, [I] the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream.” [Number 12:6], [good] Angels, or visions, priests of the Lord and even directly as with Moses [Numbers 12:7] and others, but never “sorcery” or “necromancy”. God is clear, Saul did not do righteously, but wickedly, and it was required of him:

 

Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I [am] the LORD your God.” [Leviticus 19:31]

 

And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.” [Leviticus 20:6]

 

Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I [am] the LORD your God.” [Leviticus 20:7] [“But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;” [1 Peter 1:16] and “Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” [1 Peter 1:16]]

 

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD [am] holy, and have severed you from [other] people, that ye should be mine.” [Leviticus 20:26]

 

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them.” [Leviticus 20:27]

 

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?” [Isaiah 8:19]

 

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.” [Isaiah 8:20]

 

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.” [Deuteronomy 18:9]

 

There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,” [Deuteronomy 18:10]

 

Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.” [Deuteronomy 18:11]

 

For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.” [Deuteronomy 18:12]

 

Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.” [Deuteronomy 18:13]

 

For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so [to do].” [Deuteronomy 18:14]

 

The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;” [Deuteronomy 18:15]

 

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” [Deuteronomy 18:18]

 

And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.” [Deuteronomy 18:19]

 

Saul, instead of eliminating the witch of Endor, spares her life, even swearing by the LORD, in contradiction to His commandments, “And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.” [1 Samuel 28:10], for she knew well that to practice her sorcery was a death sentence, even by the King's previous decrees and of God, “And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?” [1 Samuel 28:9], so much so, that Saul also knew that such a decree would slay even himself, and so came to the witch by night and in disguise and in deception [1 Samuel 28:12], “And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee.” [1 Samuel 28:8]. She even cries aloud at finding out that she had been tricked and came to know it was King Saul who stood before her asking her to do this thing, for she feared for her life [1 Samuel 28:12].

 

This is not the way of God, which is done openly and in the daylight, “I spake openly to the world … in secret have I said nothing.” [John 18:20], “For I [am] the LORD, I change not...” [Malachi 3:6]

 

God never reveals the future through the methods of channelers, but through His chosen prophets and His Word, “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” [Amos 3:7], which is why it must be “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.” [Isaiah 8:20], “for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” [Revelation 19:10]

 

 

[2] Saul refused to obey the Lord, by the prophet Samuel, and would not listen when the chances were given [1 Samuel 13:8-14, 15:1-33, etc]:

 

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;” [Proverbs 1:24]; “But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:” [Proverbs 1:25]; “I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;” [Proverbs 1:26]; “When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.” [Proverbs 1:27]; “Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:” [Proverbs 1:28]; “For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:” [Proverbs 1:29]; “They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.” [Proverbs 1:30]; “Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.” [Proverbs 1:31]; “For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.” [Proverbs 1:32]


 

[3] Saul had long ago grieved away the Holy Spirit, “the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul” [1 Samuel 16:14] and “an evil spirit” [1 Samuel 16:14,15,16,23, 18:10, 19:9] was continually leading him to sin against God, and so also leading others into sin [1 Samuel 14:24-32, 22:16-24, etc]. Saul would no longer heed the Holy Spirit [Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10; Ephesians 4:30].


 

[4] The LORD would no longer answer Saul when he enquired by any approved method of God for Saul would not listen, “Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets” [1 Samuel 28:6] and Saul fully acknowledges this, “God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams” [1 Samuel 28:15]. Notice, the LORD would not answer “by prophets”. Samuel was a prophet, even a seer [1 Samuel 9:9,10].

 

[5] When Saul recognized that the LORD would no longer answer him when he enquired of HIM, he yet even still in rebellion to the Word of God, went to enquire of a woman with a “familiar spirit” which is forbidden of God, even “abomination”, “Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.” [1 Samuel 28:7]; as it is written, “For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.” [1 Samuel 15:23]

 

The word used for “familiar spirit” [Leviticus 19:31, 20:6,27; Deuteronomy 18:11; 1 Samuel 28:3,7,8,9; 2 Kings 21:6, 23:24; 1 Chronicles 10:13; 2 Chronicles 33:6; Isaiah 8:9, 19:3, 29:4; see also Job 32:19, “bottles”] is “האבות”; “H'aBVTh”, and it means “water skin bottle [that which is filled], necromancer, one which has a familiar spirit, a soothsayer, one who divines and possessed by the python [serpent] spirit, a medium or channeler of a false and lying spirit”.

 

[6] Futhermore, we know it was not actually Samuel the Prophet, but a false spirit, a “familiar spirit”, even that “evil spirit”, a wicked fallen angel which mimicked the likeness of Samuel, giving a hopeless message of despair by a witch unto the King, even as it is in this our day, “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth...” [Revelation 16:14]. Saul was not seeking God, but rather he sought a witch, even “...a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.” [1 Samuel 28:7], and asked of her “...I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit...” [1 Samuel 28:8]. This was forbidden of God as already shown, and this sin was to cost him everything, and as scripture records, “So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, [even] against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking [counsel] of [one that had] a familiar spirit, to enquire [of it];” [1 Chronicles 10:13]; “And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.” [1 Chronicles 10:14]. Notice, that scripture further declares that this “familiar spirit” was not actually Samuel at all.

 

[7] To be sure, we may know of a surety that the Prophet Samuel long before any of these events, “died” [1 Samuel 25:1], and was so dead, without life. He was not in Heaven, not some immortal ethereal essence floating around somewhere, but rather he himself as it is written was “buried...in his house in Ramah” [1 Samuel 25:1]. For scripture is clear, “the grave [is] mine house” [Job 17:13], being “asleep” even “my bed in the darkness” [Job 17:13], saying “to corruption, Thou [art] my father: to the worm, [Thou art] my mother, and my sister” [Job 17:14], he in death, would “go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust” [Job 17:16]. This is not something new or obscure in the word of God, for it is everywhere written, “thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust” [Psalms 104:29]; “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” [Ecclesiastes 12:7]; “till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.” [Genesis 3:19], “[As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more].” [Job 7:9]; “He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.” [Job 7:10], etc. How long? “But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?” [Job 14:10]; “[As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:” [Job 14:11]; “So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.” [Job 14:12]; “O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!” [Job 14:13]; “If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.” [Job 14:14]; “Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.” [Job 14:15], and the NT speaks the same, even in the mouths of Jesus [John 11, etc], the prophets, Apostles [1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, Revelation, etc].

 

The word used for “died” [1 Samuel 25:1] is “וימת”; “VYMTh”, and it means “to die, perished, put to death, without [the breath of] life, slain”.

 

[8] The “woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor” [1 Samuel 28:7], could no more call the true prophet Samuel back from the dead, “Whom shall I bring up unto thee?” [1 Samuel 28:11], than could all the forces of satan together. For one they have no power to resurrect anyone from the dead and they have no power to command any persons of the Lord, let alone a true prophet of God [2 Kings 1:9-15], like Samuel was even in life, let alone when one is dead and buried, hidden and kept secret with the Lord [Job 14:13]. It is those faithful of the LORD which have “power over unclean spirits” [Mark 6:7] and “power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy” [Luke 10:19], and not the other way 'round. Notice that this was a summoning séance, and not even a resurrection. Every single resurrection in the scripture is in direct contrast to this event! [we shall come to these a bit later, but the contrast should be obvious to any] In resurrections, there is “flesh and bones” [Luke 24:39], not some ethereal gaseous non-entity, for they which die in the Lord, are to live again, even as Jesus is alive forever more, and as the angels of Heaven [Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:36], which are tangible, not intangible, of substance and having heavenly bodies [1 Corinthians 15], not ethereal incorporeality.

 

[9] It is clearly written that Samuel came no more unto Saul at all, not even until the day of Saul's death which came after the séance, “And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.” [1 Samuel 15:33], therefore, since this “familiar spirit” came unto Saul, at his request, we know it was not actually the prophet Samuel, otherwise scripture would be in direct contraction to itself, and this is impossible [John 10:35].

 

[10] Saul never actually sees this supposed “Samuel”, which was shown unto the “woman that hath a familiar spirit”, but instead asked her what she saw, and it was she which was under the deception of the “familiar spirit”, who showed unto her a lying image, a “form” and by her description, he comes to believe it to be “Samuel”, but it is not, “And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou [art] Saul.” [1 Samuel 28:12]; “And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.” [1 Samuel 28:13]; “And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.” [1 Samuel 28:14]. Satan can mimick the dead or those living, even almost perfectly, even as he will even personate Christ Jesus soon enough, and so devils mimick to bring confusion and death, “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” [2 Corinthians 11:14]. Notice that she “saw gods [elohim] ascending out of the earth”, God speaks elsewhere of this same [Isaiah 29:4]. For those which believe that an 'immortal spirit essence of oneself' “returns unto God” at death, rather than “the breath of life” which is given of God until such time as he takes it back unto Himself, will have a strange conundrum, since God dwells in Heaven, not in the dust of the earth.

 

[11] Some have said that the 'prophecy' [1 Samuel 28:16-19] of the “Samuel” [“familiar spirit”] came true and is therefore evidence of it being actually the true Samuel, but this is a misunderstanding of what is said of any prophecy, for God had already given in His Word about such, that all are to be tested, “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” [1 Thessalonians 5:21]. That if a sign or wonder come to pass as prophesied from one which gave it, but that one prophesying lead unto false ways and caused to not heed the commandments of God, then they are false and shall be put to death:

 

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,” [Deuteronomy 13:1]; “And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;” [Deuteronomy 13:2]; “Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.” [Deuteronomy 13:3]; “Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.” [Deuteronomy 13:4]; “And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.” [Deuteronomy 13:5]

 

However, even in this case with Saul, and the “familiar spirit”, that which was given, was pretty much already known beforehand, and the “familiar spirit” is merely giving again that which had already been before declared by God previously. King Saul already grieved away the Holy Spirit, he was scared of the multitudes of the Philistines [1 Samuel 28:5], he had already lost the kingdom to David, he would not listen to the true Prophet Samuel when he was alive, killed the priests of God, etc. That the “familiar spirit” concluded that Saul and his sons would be captured was hardly even a 'prophecy', but simply a logical outcome of the choices and events already made. Saul by listening to this “familiar spirit”, believing it over and above any power of God to deliver, the next day because of it, “was sore afraid” [1 Samuel 28:20] and “sore troubled” [1 Samuel 28:21], and when about to be captured, commits suicide [1 Samuel 31:4; 2 Samuel 1:4; 1 Chronicles 10:4]. Go back and re-read all the events that led up this event in Saul's life.

 

[12] We know that this “familiar spirit” is not the true Samuel, for it speaks a twisted truth unto King Saul saying, “...and to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me” [1 Samuel 28:19]. Though King Saul would return to dust, even as Samuel was, King Saul would never again be with Samuel who will be raised from the dust in the First Great Resurrection to come, and Jonathan also unto immortality, while Saul will be raised from the dust a thousand years afterwards in the Second Great Resurrection unto the 2nd death from which there would be no resurrection. King Saul was wicked and grieved away the Holy Spirit, but Samuel was righteous and died in the Lord. Samuel was dead and buried in Ramah, Saul committed suicide and his head taken, and his body, eventually to be burned, himself become ashes, buried afterward [2 Samuel 2:5] in Jabesh [see also 1 Chronicles 10], therefore Saul was no longer living anywhere but, “Saul is dead” [2 Samuel 2:7], and without any life, dying outside of the Lord and therefore “shall not see life” [John 3:36]:

 

And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish [it in] the house of their idols, and among the people.” [1 Samuel 31:9]; “And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan.” [1 Samuel 31:10]; “And when the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead heard of that which the Philistines had done to Saul;” [1 Samuel 31:11]; “All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there.” [1 Samuel 31:12]; “And they took their bones, and buried [them] under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days.” [1 Samuel 31:13]

 

Additionally, a “son of Saul”, “Ishbosheth” [2 Samuel 2:8] did not die the next day, as the “familiar spirit” said, “to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me”, but reigned over Israel [2 Samuel 2:10], and was not killed until later [2 Samuel 4:6-8,12].

 

Well, I hope that all those which love to study the scriptures indepth, instead of simple text isolations, may perhaps reconsider utilizing these events to teach as the Roman Catholic Church teaches about the state of the dead.

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The claim is not that Samuel was or wasn't sleeping - it is that soul sleep is a false doctrine.

Your many words and long winded posts are not in depth, they are deliberately overcomplicated padded out with the intent that you may be able to deceive some into believing your twisted definitions.

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[Ukulelemike; additional text, not in original reply] ...Remeber, as well, that Jesus told the thief on the cross, "I tell thee, TODAY, thou shalt be with me in Paradise." And please, don't try the thin idea of moving the comma to make it say, I tell thee today, thou shalt be with me in Paradise." That's poor English-and why would Jesus have to specify that He was telling the thief "today", because obviously he was telling him that day. Would this be as opposed to "I tell you tomorrow, thou shalt be with me in paradise". No, He told the thief that they woule be in paradise TODAY-that very day.  The same paradise that the Lazarus was in.

 

 

The Claim:  "The thief on the cross didn’t sleep but went immediately to Heaven upon death (Luke 23:43)"

 

Here are the texts and immediate local context of Luke 23:32-33,39-46; John 20:1-31.

 

LUKE 23:32-33,39-56

 

And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. Luke 23:32

 

And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Luke 23:33

 

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. Luke 23:39

 

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? Luke 23:40

 

And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luke 23:41

 

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:42

 

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43 [KJV]

 

και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω Luke 23:43 [Greek]

 

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. Luke 23:44

 

And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. Luke 23:45

 

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46

 

Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man. Luke 23:47

 

And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. Luke 23:48

 

And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things. Luke 23:49

 

And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor; [and he was] a good man, and a just: Luke 23:50

 

(The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) [he was] of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. Luke 23:51

 

This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Luke 23:52

 

And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. Luke 23:53

 

And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. Luke 23:54

 

And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. Luke 23:55

 

And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Luke 23:56

 

 

MATTHEW 27:38-66

 

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. Matthew 27:38

 

And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, Matthew 27:39

 

And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Matthew 27:40

 

Likewise also the chief priests mocking [him], with the scribes and elders, said, Matthew 27:41

 

He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. Matthew 27:42

 

He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. Matthew 27:43

 

The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Matthew 27:44

 

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. Matthew 27:45

 

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46

 

Some of them that stood there, when they heard [that], said, This [man] calleth for Elias. Matthew 27:47

 

And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled [it] with vinegar, and put [it] on a reed, and gave him to drink. Matthew 27:48

 

The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Matthew 27:49

 

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. Matthew 27:50

 

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Matthew 27:51

 

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Matthew 27:52

 

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matthew 27:53

 

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Matthew 27:54

 

And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: Matthew 27:55

 

Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children. Matthew 27:56

 

When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: Matthew 27:57

 

He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. Matthew 27:58

 

And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, Matthew 27:59

 

And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. Matthew 27:60

 

And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre. Matthew 27:61

 

Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Matthew 27:62

 

Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

 

Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. Matthew 27:64

 

Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make [it] as sure as ye can. Matthew 27:65

 

So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch. Matthew 27:66

 

 

JOHN 20:1-31

 

The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. John 20:1

 

Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. John 20:2

 

Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. John 20:3

 

So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. John 20:4

 

And he stooping down, [and looking in], saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. John 20:5

 

Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, John 20:6

 

And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. John 20:7

 

Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. John 20:8

 

For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. John 20:9

 

Then the disciples went away again unto their own home. John 20:10

 

But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, [and looked] into the sepulchre, John 20:11

 

And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. John 20:12

 

And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. John 20:13

 

And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. John 20:14

 

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. John 20:15

 

Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. John 20:16

 

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. John 20:17

 

Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and [that] he had spoken these things unto her. John 20:18

 

Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. John 20:19

 

And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. John 20:20

 

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. John 20:21

 

And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: John 20:22

 

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. John 20:23

 

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. John 20:24

 

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. John 20:25

 

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. John 20:26

 

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27

 

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

 

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. John 20:29

 

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: John 20:30

 

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

 

 

Here are the texts and immediate local context of Luke 23:32-56; Matthew 27:38-66; Mark 15:15-47; John 20:1-31.

 

[1] The Greek, The English and the placement of a single punctuation, a “comma”: The King James, as other translations, basically share this format in the English, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJV], and because of where the comma is placed [which normally would not mean so much if misplaced however] in this sentence in the English, it alters an entire doctrine which is taught from Genesis to Revelation, that being that the “dead” are “them which are asleep” [1 Thessalonians 4:13,15] and do not immediately upon death enter “Paradise”, for they must first be resurrected [Matthew 22:30; Luke 20:35, etc].

The Greek Textus Receptus Stephens 1550 has no such comma or punctuation, as seen here

 

και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω” Luke 23:43 [Greek]

 

The comma should actually be after the word “To day” and not before it, like so, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” How are we to know, just guess, just let it be where I decide it should be, or to make it fit what I believe, or rather should it be placed in a position where it is in perfect unison with all of the rest of the scriptures on this particular doctrine? The latter should be our answer, since according to scripture itself, “...the scripture cannot be broken.” [John 10:35]

Additionally, never should any person seek to hang any doctrine upon the case of a punctuation mark, for scripture is always to be understood in such a manner:

 

For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:” [Isaiah 28:10]

 

 

[2] The context of the other Gospel of John reveals that Jesus did not “ascend” to “Paradise” the day of His death at all, for it is written:

 

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.” John 20:17

 

This text in context just eliminated any possibility for the comma to be placed before the word “To day”. What Jesus was saying to the thief upon the cross, is that though Jesus did not look like a King with a Kingdom, He indeed was, and that if only the thief would believe His words “thou shalt be with me in Paradise”, he would be resurrected in the First Great Resurrection “at the last day” [John 6:39,40,44,54, 11:24], even “at that day” [2 Timothy 4:8].

 

Jesus, in opposition to what looked like circumstances unto an eternal end, yet He says to the thief, “Verily, verily I say unto thee to day...”, as in right now, this moment, 'I speak to you the truth'. It is like unto what we find here, “For he [is] our God; and we [are] the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,” [Psalms 95:7; see also Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7], for Jesus is saying, 'Believe my words to day...' and 'have faith in my word this moment' and 'trust me now', even as it is written,

 

 “(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)” [2 Corinthians 6:2]

 

 

[3] Another point to consider, is that Luke is the only one which records these words “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee* To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJV], and therefore, before any conclude to utilize this text in favor of the erroneous “immortal soul/spirit” theology, ought to consider more context on the whole.

Especially since Luke says,

 

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,” [Luke 1:1];

Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;” [Luke 1:2];

It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,” [Luke 1:3];

That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.” [Luke 1:4]

 

Therefore let us be circumspect and very careful, not to fall into the trap of those which “wrest” [2 Peter 3:16] the scriptures, or as those which “corrupt the Word of God” [2 Corinthians 2:17] as do others. It would be quite dangerous to simply take a single text and claim it proves any doctrine, for a board with one nail in it, will spin all around, but a board with several nails through will be stable. Therefore, we need to consider this texts with the context which surrounds it and those events, otherwise we would be as satan which only quotes certain portions of any text or context [Matthew 4:6].

 

 

[4] According to the various man-made traditions and creeds of Roman Catholicism and others [usually 'Orthodoxy'], Christ Jesus did not go to “Paradise” that day either, but rather they say that he [Christ, in a Platonic Dualism] “descended into hell” [which is completely unscriptural, but that is for another time and topic] and it was not until the “third day” [Matthew 12:40 He said, “three days and three nights”, but on Two occasions, Matthew 27:63; Mark 8:31 He said, “after three days.” and He referred to the same event 5 times in Matthew 26:61, 27:40; Mark 15:29; John 2:19-20 as “in three days”, and on Twelve occasions it is said, “the third day.” Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:19; Mark 9:31, 10:34; Luke 9:22, 13:32, 18:33, 24:7,46; Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:4.] that he arose, and finally “ascended” into heaven.

 

This creates a serious theological conundrum and contradiction for any which believe this, if they also think that Luke 23:43 says Christ Jesus entered “Paradise” that same day he died. Others attempt to redefine “Paradise” into a type of 'limbo', but even in this, it still contradicts.

We may see this from several Roman Catholic sources, such as:

Thomas Aquinas “Summa Theologica”, Third Part, Question 52; Article 4, Reply To Objection 1 [and throughout, having both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur]:

 

Reply to Objection 1. When Christ descended into hell He delivered the saints who were there, not by leading them out at once from the confines of hell, but by enlightening them with the light of glory in hell itself. Nevertheless it was fitting that His soul should abide in hell as long as His body remained in the tomb.” - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm#article4

 

or we may see it from the “Creed of Aquiliea”":

 

Descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis (He descended to hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead); Ascendit in cœlos; sedet ad dexteram Patris; (He ascended to the heavens; he sits at the right hand of the Father)”- http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2711.htm

 

or considering the “Apostles Creed”, it clearly states that Jesus was not “caught up to Heaven” until after the “third day”; “T” Apostles Creed :

 

...(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; (6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; ...” - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm

 

or considering the “Nicene Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus that he:

 

...suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven...” - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

 

or considering the “Athanasian Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus:


...Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven...” - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm

 

 

[5]Paradise” is actually the “Garden of God” in “the city” “of God”, wherein is “the Throne of God” in the “third Heaven”, where God the Father rules, from where Jesus came from and from which Lucifer was cast out of, by scripture:

 

Luke 23:43 Greek και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12:1

2 Corinthians 12:2 Greek οιδα ανθρωπον εν χριστω προ ετων δεκατεσσαρων ειτε εν σωματι ουκ οιδα ειτε εκτος του σωματος ουκ οιδα ο θεος οιδεν αρπαγεντα τον τοιουτον εως τριτου ουρανου

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 2 Corinthians 12:3

2 Corinthians 12:4 Greek  οτι ηρπαγη εις τον παραδεισον και ηκουσεν αρρητα ρηματα α ουκ εξον ανθρωπω λαλησαι

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

Revelation 2:7 Greek  ο εχων ους ακουσατω τι το πνευμα λεγει ταις εκκλησιαις τω νικωντι δωσω αυτω φαγειν εκ του ξυλου της ζωης ο εστιν εν μεσω του παραδεισου του θεου

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:2

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

Ezekiel 28:13 LXX  ἐν τῇ τρυφῇ τοῦ παραδείσου τοῦ θεοῦ ἐγενήθης· πᾶν λίθον χρηστὸν ἐνδέδεσαι, σάρδιον καὶ τοπάζιον καὶ σμάραγδον καὶ ἄνθρακα καὶ σάπφειρον καὶ ἴασπιν καὶ ἀργύριον καὶ χρυσίον καὶ λιγύριον καὶ ἀχάτην καὶ ἀμέθυστον καὶ χρυσόλιθον καὶ βηρύλλιον καὶ ὀνύχιον, καὶ χρυσίου ἐνέπλησας τοὺς θησαυρούς σου καὶ τὰς ἀποθήκας σου ἐν σοὶ ἀφ᾿ ἧς ἡμέρας ἐκτίσθης σύ.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13

Ezekiel 31:9 LXX  διὰ τὸ πλῆθος τῶν κλάδων αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐζήλωσεν αὐτὸν τὰ ξύλα τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς τοῦ θεοῦ.

I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. Ezekiel 31:9

Isaiah 51:3 LXX  καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω, Σιων, καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον κυρίου· εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ, ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως.

For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. Isaiah 51:3

 

Jesus did not enter into “Paradise” until after He was resurrected and arose from death “the third day” according to the scriptures, this being His first ascension back into Heaven, the other at the Mount of Olives [Acts 1:9; Revelation 12:5], after 40 days [Acts 1:3], 10 days before Pentecost, the 50th Day [Leviticus 23:16] in exact fulfillment of the Biblical Types and Prophecy given in the OT [unto Moses and Aaron].

 

 

[6] Jesus was dead and in the Tomb, resting in the sleep of death upon the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, for even in death He is perfect, for he not going anywhere, as it is written, “...he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.” [Job 21:32], until after His resurrection, for He must of necessity fulfill the scriptures:

 

Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matthew 28:6

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:17

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:8

 

 

 

[7] Christ Jesus did not lead “captivity captive” [the “firstfruits” 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, the “wavesheaf” Leviticus 23:10-12; see Matthew 27:52-53] until His own Resurrection, “the third day” [Luke 24:21],

 

“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” Ephesians 4:8 [Special Resurrection at Jesus own Resurrection, see also Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53]

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

 

The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of Jesus from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of God” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

 

Notice, not individually as any die, but all “together” being alive and others with them made alive in a resurrection [Biblical exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, special group of “saints” around Jerusalem at Jesus own resurrection, each playing a specific part in typology, there are no other Biblical exceptions].

 

The same word can be viewed in many other passages:

 

[Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].

 

There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:

 

“to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

“to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

“to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

“to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

“to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

“make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

“come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

“to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].

 

Therefore, since Jesus is fulfilling the types in their order, Jesus was not to be the Firstfruits until His resurrection from the dead in/on the 16th Of Nisan/Aviv {the "first [day] of the week", which was "...the Third day since these things were done" Luke 24:21}, which is two days later from the Passover, the 14th of Nisan/Aviv, as it is given in Scripture:

 

THE CHOOSING OF THE SPOTLESS LAMB [Exodus 12:3] 1st Month (Pre-Babylonian-Abib/Aviv, Post Babylonian-Nisan) 10th Day after the New Moon. Choose the spotless Lamb as designated by God, a Lamb for every man, for every house (to be held for 3 1/2 days). Jesus begins ministry (John 1:29,36) at age 30 (Luke 3:23), according to type (Numbers 4:3,23,30,35,39,40,43,47), and preaches 3 ½ years according to Scripture and Prophecy of Daniel (Daniel 9:27).

PASSOVER FEAST [Leviticus 23:5] 1st Month (Pre-Babylonian-Abib/Aviv, Post Babylonian-Nisan) 14th Day after the New Moon at Even. Spotless Lamb slain (after being held 3 1/2 days), roasted by fire, eaten with bitter herbs, in a state of readiness to depart, with no bone of the Lamb being broken, its shed blood applied to the doorposts and lintel [Exodus 12:7-8]. [Jesus dies AD 31; Nisan 14th]

UNLEAVENED BREAD FEAST [Leviticus 23:6-8] 1st Month (Pre-Babylonian-Abib/Aviv, Post Babylonian-Nisan) 15th Day after the New Moon - until the 21st Day of the same Month (7 days). On the 1st Day (15th) a holy convocation and no servile work (seasonal feast sabbath) [Jesus in the Tomb; Nisan 15th], unleavened is eaten for 7 days (all leaven removed from the 1st Day). A holy convocation and no servile work on the 7th Day, being the 21st Day of the same Month (seasonal feast sabbath).

FIRSTFRUITS OF HARVEST, WAVE SHEAF [Leviticus 23:10-14] 1st Month (Pre-Babylonian-Abib/Aviv, Post Babylonian-Nisan) 16th Day after the New Moon [Jesus resurrected; Nisan 16th]. A Wave Sheaf of the Firstfruits of the Harvest on the morrow after the Sabbath. This day not being a Sabbath. A spotless he-lamb burnt offering the same day as the wave sheaf. "Meat" (bread) offering - two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD [for] a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof [shall be] of wine, the fourth [part] of an hin. Begin to count 7, 7th Day Sabbaths, plus one more Day unto Pentecost (7x7=49+1=50).

The Calender:

(First Month of the Year, Abib/Aviv) (Exodus 12:2; Deuteronomy 16:1) and later became changed to Nisan (after Babylonian Captivity, Esther 3:7; Ezra 6:19)

NEW MOON 1 MONTH DAY 1 - (A Solemn Feast Day according to Psalms 81:3; Numbers 10:10 (CYCLE DAY 7; 7th DAY SABBATH Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11)),

1 MONTH DAY 2, (CYCLE DAY 1)
1 MONTH DAY 3, (CYCLE DAY 2)
1 MONTH DAY 4, (CYCLE DAY 3)
1 MONTH DAY 5, (CYCLE DAY 4)
1 MONTH DAY 6, (CYCLE DAY 5)
1 MONTH DAY 7, (CYCLE DAY 6)

1 MONTH DAY 8, (CYCLE DAY 7; 7th DAY SABBATH Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11)

1 MONTH DAY 9, (CYCLE DAY 1)

1 MONTH DAY 10, (typological Getting Lamb for Passover; Exodus 12:3 (CYCLE DAY 2) Reality CHRIST is the LAMB of GOD; John 1:29,36; Jesus begins ministry for 3 ½ years; Daniel 9:27; [and ended on the time so specified] Luke 13:32-33, etc)

1 MONTH DAY 11, (CYCLE DAY 3)
1 MONTH DAY 12, (CYCLE DAY 4)
1 MONTH DAY 13, (CYCLE DAY 5)

1 MONTH DAY 14, (typological Passover at Even; Leviticus 23:5; Reality of CHRIST's DEATH - CYCLE DAY 6, 'aka Friday', known as the Preparation day (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31), the True Temple was Destroyed (First day of the Three Prophesied by JESUS; John 2:19, etc) also see the typology of the Manna in Exodus 16:5,22; and see 1 Corinthians 5:7)

1 MONTH DAY 15, (typological First Day of Unleavened Bread, feast sabbath; Exodus 12:16; Leviticus 23:6-7; Reality of CHRIST's BURIAL - CYCLE DAY 7, 'aka Saturday' (Luke 23:56; 7th Day SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD in the 4th COMMANDMENT), the two (seasonal feast sabbath and 7th DAY SABBATH) combined that year of JESUS and was called an "HIGH DAY" John 19:31, JESUS remained in the tomb (being the Second Day of the Three Prophesied by JESUS; John 2:19, etc); also see the typology of the Manna in Exodus 16:23)

1 MONTH DAY 16, (typological Wave Sheaf, First Fruits Offering, NOT A SABBATH; Leviticus 23:10-11; Joshua 5:10-12; Reality of CHRIST's RESURRECTION - CYCLE DAY 1, 'aka Sunday' Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1-2,9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1,19; JESUS free of the Tomb (being the THIRD DAY since these things were done; Luke 24:21; John 2:19, etc), also see the typology of the Manna in Exodus 16:24-25, compare to Acts 13:37; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23...begin counting 7 Sabbaths to PENTECOST Leviticus 23:15); 1st Day)

1 MONTH DAY 17, (CYCLE DAY 2; 2nd Day)
1 MONTH DAY 18, (CYCLE DAY 3; 3rd Day)
1 MONTH DAY 19, (CYCLE DAY 4; 4th Day)
1 MONTH DAY 20, (CYCLE DAY 5; 5th Day)

1 MONTH DAY 21, (End of Feast of Unleavened Bread, feast sabbath; Leviticus 23:8; (CYCLE DAY 6); 6th Day) … etc.

 

14th Aviv/Nisan - Passover, Christ Jesus dies

15th Aviv/Nisan - First day unleavened bread, seasonal sabbath, Christ Jesus without sin buried

16th Aviv/Nisan - Firstfruits/wavesheaf, Christ Jesus resurrected

It can only be this way. This is not only given in this way, but also in the Manna of Exodus 16, in the events of Jonah, &c.

 

I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God. Exodus 16:12

And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host. Exodus 16:13

And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground. Exodus 16:14

And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat. Exodus 16:15

This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents. Exodus 16:16

And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less. Exodus 16:17

And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating. Exodus 16:18

And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning. Exodus 16:19

Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them. Exodus 16:20

And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted. Exodus 16:21

And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. Exodus 16:22

And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. Exodus 16:23

And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. Exodus 16:24

And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Exodus 16:25

Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. Exodus 16:26

And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. Exodus 16:27

And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? Exodus 16:28

See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Exodus 16:29

So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:30

And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey. Exodus 16:31

And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth, Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations; that they may see the bread wherewith I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt. Exodus 16:32

And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the LORD, to be kept for your generations. Exodus 16:33

As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept. Exodus 16:34

And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. Deuteronomy 8:3

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. Psalms 16:9

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Psalms 16:10

That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption. Psalms 49:9

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Acts 2:31

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:34

Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 13:35

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36

But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Acts 13:37

 

Jesus is the Bread?  the Manna?  Yes:

 

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. John 6:63

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:57

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. John 6:27

 

What is this "meat which endureth"? It is the "words" that Jesus speaks to us. That is eternal life. What must we do about His "words", his teachings? We must "believe on Him" [Jesus] whom the Father has sent.

 

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

 

However, many of the crowd simply did not want to believe in/on Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, being God, the I AM [especially as the only way] without some great sign, even though a little earlier they had all just been fed and been full physically from so very little bread and fish. They wanted a way in salvation apart from Jesus, they wanted a way of works, not of faith which works.

They did not want to understand that "He came down from Heaven" and said, "Is not this...the son of Joseph?" They did not want to take Jesus on faith. He is the living Manna.

Jesus pointed out that even those who had been fed from miraculous manna from heaven, all had still died [and are still dead to this day, awaiting their resurrection "at the last day"; John 6:40], but those who believed on Him, the True manna, He says would not permanantly die in the 2nd death, but would sleep in death until their resurrection and would live forever, neither thirst, nor hunger.

 

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. John 6:35

I am that bread of life. John 6:48

This is that breadwhich came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. John 6:58

 

Not as their fathers who ate the flakes, wafers of manna, but truly Christ Jesus is the living “Bread”, the "Way", "Truth" and "Life". We must believe on Him unto salvation, and follow in His steps by His grace, obey His words, practice what He says.

Jesus was speaking of Himself as the Messiah and Saviour, thus speaking Himself as the Messiah, the very Son of God, to believe upon and the example to follow:

 

This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. John 6:50

 

Jesus human "Flesh" and "Blood" did not come down from heaven, but He and His doctrine, His Way have. Notice how Jesus Himself lives, "by the Father" [even as he says, "...I have meat to eat that ye know not of." John 4:32; and what was this "meat"? "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." John 4:32], and so likewise we, also, by Him by heeding His words, following His example and keeping/doing His Commandments [Ten Commandments]:

 

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:57

 

That is eats of HIS WORD...

Jesus makes it abundantly clear that His words are Spirit:

 

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. John 6:63

 

Peter, himself, acknowledges that Jesus has the Words of Life because that He is the Messiah:

 

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. John 6:68

 

Jesus makes known who did not have eternal life and why they did not, it was because they belived not on Him, as the Christ, even though they had seen Him and the works He performed:

 

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. John 6:35

And the entirety of the Chapter of John 6 is summed up in this one verse:


And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69

 

That is the whole point of John 6, declaring Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God, from personal experience and personal acknowledgment, and to follow Him.

John 6 is focusing on who is "the Christ, the Son of the living God" and who "believe[d]" "on Him" and who did not.

It is Belief in Christ Jesus as the "Son of the living God", the Messiah, the Christ, God manifest in the likeness of the human sinful flesh, the sent of the Father, the Saviour, etc that is the focus.

 

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

 

We are to "eat" and "drink" His words, for they are spirit and are life.

 

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 1 Corinthians 10:1

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1 Corinthians 10:2

And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 1 Corinthians 10:3

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4

But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Corinthians 10:5

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? John 6:52

And Moses said, This shall be, when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the LORD. Exodus 16:8

And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? Numbers 11:4

Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat. Numbers 11:13

And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the LORD will give you flesh, and ye shall eat. Numbers 11:18

 

We see that Christ is the True manna, even the Word of God [John 1:1], the Bread that came down from Heaven. Just as the bread was for 6 days and on the 7th it was not to be found in the field [which is a symbol of the world; Matthew 13:38], so too Christ was not found in the world, being buried in the Tomb. Though Christ was dead, and buried, His flesh did not see corruption on the 7th Day, even as the Manna saw no corruption on the 7th Day. On the very next day, being the first [day] of the week, we see Christ Jesus arisen from the dead, and preserved forever, never to see corruption, nor death again, and so too likewise the Manna which was uncorrupted was gathered into the Golden Pot, and placed before the Ark [symbol of the Throne of God], even as Christ Jesus ascended that very morning for the first time to the Father.

 

 

[8] Jesus is specific about how anyone which dies, is to enter into Heaven, “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.” [John 14:3], and that word “come” is the Greek “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι”.

Death is an enemy, not a friend [1 Corinthians 15:26], for it has a sting, which will one day be no more, and it was not until after the Resurrection of Christ Jesus, that He “...hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” [2 Timothy 1:10].

 

 

[9] The thief specifically stated this: "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42, which is the context of Luke 23:43, and we know that Jesus has not yet received that Kingdom, for He does not yet sit upon the Throne of Glory:

 

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matthew 25:31

 

Jesus went to go receive the Kingdom, and went into that Far Country, 3rd Heaven. He is not yet married unto it.

 

He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:12

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniuel 7:13

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:14

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17

 

The number of His Kingdom is not made up yet, but soon it will be.

See also: Isaiah 61:10, 62:5; Matthew 21:33, 25:14; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9

Especially Read Matthew 25 and the Ten Virgins.

Edited by banner over me was love

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And now you are changing the Word of God because you don't like the phrasing.

Just as the Jehovahs witnesses do with John 1 - they change it because they don't like the Bible saying that Jesus IS GOD.
So they change it........

How much more corruption will you insist on spouting here?

And once again a simple answer is covered in so many words in the hope that you can slip such lies and deceit in without being discovered.

A REMINDER TO ALL READERS THAT THIS IS NOT "IN DEPTH" AS THIS FALSE TEACHER CONTINUALLY CLAIMS, BUT BLOATED AND OVERCOMPLICATED AND FILLED WITH EXTRANEOUS AND OFTEN IRRELEVANT MATERIAL, WITH THE EXPRESS INTENT OF CAUSING CONFUSION.

The Bible states things simply, not as this man. Edited by DaveW

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[Banner Over Me Was love] Paul didn't actually die when stoned, though some may still believe he did.  The connection with Paul's saying in 2 Corinthians 12:2 is not referring back to Paul's stoning contextually.  We can also consider the saying of Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 in the timing of the little word "and".
 
[Ukulelemike] "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Yes, that little word, "and", makes it clear that Paul is keeping the same thought complete as one thought-absent from the body, AND to be present with the Lord-once we are absent from the body, which you believe never happens at all, if I am correct, being the standard SDA doctrine, that the Spirit is not separate from the body, then this verse still disproves that idea. Paul desires to be absent from the body AND present with the Lord, both of whoich happen at death for the believer.

 

The [basic] Claim: To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, means as soon as I am absent from the body [dead], I am immediately present with the LORD per 2 Cor 5:8.

 

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

 

Let's take a look at the immediate surrounding Context, 2 Corinthians 5:1-21,

 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1

 

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Corinthians 5:2

 

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:3

 

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

 

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5

 

Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Corinthians 5:6

(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 2 Corinthians 5:7

We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 2 Corinthians 5:9

 

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

 

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:11

 

For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 2 Corinthians 5:12

 

For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 2 Corinthians 5:13

 

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 2 Corinthians 5:14

 

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 2 Corinthians 5:15

 

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Corinthians 5:16

 

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

 

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Corinthians 5:18

 

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19

 

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

 

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

Many people simply miss the point of Paul in that verse, and generally misquote it, either in practice or in their heads, and forget what he says elsewhere. Let's consider what Paul does say:

 

[1] Firstly, the text does not read [as many ofter innocently misquote, either verbally or recite in their head]:

 

"We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body [IS] to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8

 

The actual word inbetween "absent from the body" and "to be present with the Lord" is the Greek word "kai" [and] and not "is" as many would [perhaps innocently/ignorantly] imply it to mean. For we see clearly this:

 

We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

"2Co 5:8 θαρρουμενG2292 V-PAI-1P δεG1161 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ ευδοκουμενG2106 V-PAI-1P μαλλονG3123 ADV εκδημησαιG1553 V-AAN εκG1537 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN σωματοςG4983 N-GSN καιG2532 CONJ ενδημησαιG1736 V-AAN προςG4314 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM κυριονG2962 N-ASM"

 

The substitution of the “and” with “is” is entirely too common these days. If the passage did read “is”, it would indicate immediateness, an equals as it were, which would go like this:

 

To be “absent from the body” IS [=] “to be present with the Lord”, like unto the mathematical equation 2+2 IS [=] 4. Yet that is not what we read at all. What we do read is two individual events separated by time as we shall see. The little Greek word “kai” [and] means all the difference here.

There is much in that little word "and", from Paul, since he is clear that the passage of time in this world still passes, but the dead know it not, and shall awake in the resurrection, and it is
"then" that those which died in the Lord shall “be present with the Lord”, as it is said it is “then”, that we "shall ever be with the Lord"... that is, they were not "with" Him [the Lord, Jesus] before, except by hope while we yet lived, even "earnestly desiring" it [2 Corinthians 5:2] and "faith" [2 Corinthians 5:7] in that resurrection...


"Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:17

 

If we had “immortal souls” that never die, what then is “swallowed up of life”? Nothing. Yet, Paul uses a time word, "then", and when did Paul say this was to be? Notice that Paul in his previous letter to the Corinthians designates the time of the change and reward, which is at "the Last Trunp".

Scripture says that we are
"caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:17], and that Jesus would come back for us all at once [John 14:1-4]. Not individually as we die, fall into the sleep of death and are so buried in the grave, remaining in the tomb, in the dust of the earth.

 

Paul knew the Scriptures, even as others:

 

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isaiah 26:19

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psalms 50:3

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psalms 50:4

Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalms 50:5

 

Paul clearly says:Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25

Marvel not at this: for
the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:28


"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." 2 Timothy 4:8

 

That word “appearing” is the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ.


But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

 

 

[2] Notice also another very key to this text, which is in 2 Corinthians 5:5,7, speaking about "faith", and “earnest[ness]” that is waiting for the reality of the Resurrection, not of actual "sight" or of obtaining immediately upon one's death.

 

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5

 

(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 2 Corinthians 5:7

 

Paul knew that he would not enter into Heaven, until his resurrection, which would not happen in his own day of dying, but in the Day of the LORD,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind... as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thessalonians 2:2;p

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2:3

 

 

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Peter says the same in all his Epistles, which we may yet come to later.

 

 

[3] Paul will not contradict himself, and also in the light of :

 

...the scripture cannot be broken.” John 10:35;p

 

For Paul knew the Scriptures:

 

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

 

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:6

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do
it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10

 

His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Job 14:21

 

If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Job 34:14

All flesh shall perish together, and
man shall turn again unto dust. Job 34:15

 

They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:16

One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet. Job 21:23

And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure. Job 21:25

They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them. Job 21:26

For ye say, Where
is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked? Job 21:28

That
the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. Job 21:30

Yet shall
he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb. Job 21:32

 

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115:17

 

Consider what Paul has stated just before our texts, in that he was not desirous to be without clothing for long, “naked”, but looked forward to the time of the new immortal clothing, being “clothed upon” [immortality], which he did not yet actually possess, but would have at the Resurrection. Paul constantly spoke about this:

 

Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. Acts 17:18

 

Notice that he did not preach unto them, Platonic Dualism, which they already knew of, or of the Greek philosophy [Plato, Aristotle, Socrates] and superstitions of entering into Heaven/Hell, as an ethereal ghastial immortal non-entity, as the Greek and Roman 'religions' taught. They already taught that, being the “wisdom of this world”.

 

"...is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S", "Soul"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

"... For
positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "I"; "Immortality"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm

 

Yet Paul preached the Resurrection:

 

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. Acts 23:6

 

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15

 

Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day. Acts 24:21

 

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:5

 

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:12

 

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1 Corinthians 15:13

 

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:21

 

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 1 Corinthians 15:42

 

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Philippians 3:10

 

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Philippians 3:11

 

Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:2

 

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: Hebrews 11:35

 

This is even confirmed outside of the Scripture by others, notice:

 

Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho:

 

"... Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you.2260 For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth],2261 and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristæ,2262 Galilæans, Hellenists,2263 Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. ...

 

2261 i.e., resurrection. ..." [Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LXXX [80]] - http://www.ccel.org/...ii.iv.lxxx.html

 

Additionally, both William Tyndale, John Frith, George Wishart, John Milton, Baptists, among others and Martin Luther of the Reformation itself taught that the dead are asleep, knowing nothing, knowing full well that the Scripture taught it and used it against Rome's paganistic teachings:

 

http://biblelight.net/luther-tyndale.htm

 

http://www.sundaylaw.net/studies/truelife/immortality/reformat.htm

 

[Wikipedia; "Annihilationism"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism
[Wikipedia; "Conditional Immortality"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_immortality
[Wikipedia; "Soul Death"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_death
[Wikipedia; "Christian Mortalism"] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep

 

"William Tyndale (1484-1536)

 

English Bible translator and Martyr

 

In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed:

 

"And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181 - http://books.google.com/books?id=TOLOU6-00yUC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innante immortality. Thus:

 

"The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And becuase the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180

 

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

 

"And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118

 

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says is slightly sarcastic vein:

 

" 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not conforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection?" - ibid. p.118

 

John Frith (1503-33),

 

associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr writes

 

"Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;..and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." - An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester

 

Martin Luther (1493-1546)

 

German reformer and Bible Translator.

 

Regarding Luther's position Archdeacon Francis Blackburne of Cleveland; rector of Richmond states in his "Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State" of 1765 :

 

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment in his life." page 14.

 

Martin Luther declared that it was the Pope, not the bible, who taught that "the soul is immortal" Martin Luther, Defence, proposition 27

 

"Luther held that the soul died with the body, and that God would hereafter raise both the one and the other." Catholic Cardinal Du Perron, Historical View, p344

 

Here are some sample Luther citations. The first one is from a 1573 translation.

 

"Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v.

 

But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288

 

"Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760"

 

George Wishart (1500-1546),

 

Greek scholar, friend of Latimer, tutor of John Knox, and martyr.

Wishart was charged with attacking auricular confession, transubstatiation, extreme unction, holy water, invocation of saints and purgatory. Charge "XVI" was for promulgating the doctrine of the sleep of the soul.

 

Charge "XVI": Thou false heretic has preached openly saying, that the soul of man shall sleep to the latter day of judgment and shall not obtain life immortal until that day." Blackburne, "Historical View", p.21.

 

General Baptists

 

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] http://books.google.com/books?id=EIEPAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)

Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

 

"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also page 70 here, top right hand column] - http://books.google.com/books?id=W2NlnJippEkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

John Milton (1608-1674),

"Greatest of the Sacred Poets"; Latin secretary to Cromwell.

 

"Inasmuch then as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part, suffers privation of life...The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment.", "Treatise of Christian Doctine" Vol.1, ch. 13, [see page 271 here] - http://books.google.com/books?id=WwZbAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

And many, many more, Finally

 

Dr A.A. Phelps, pastor Congregational Church, Rochester, New York, and editor of "The Bible Banner", in discussing "Is Man By Nature Immortal?" (pp.639-650), presents twelve counts against the doctrine of innate immortality:

  1. It has a bad history; it was introduced by the serpent in Eden, and springs from a heathen philosophy; it is not found in Jewish belief; is a compromise with Platonism; adopted and authenticated by the Church of Rome.

  2. It is at variance with the scriptural account of man's creation.

  3. It clashes with the Bible statement of man's fall.

  4. It is opposed to the scriptural doctrine of death.

  5. It is equally opposed to the physiological facts.

  6. Immortality is nowhere ascribed to man in his present state of existance.

  7. Immortality is a blessing to be sought, and not a birthright legacy.

  8. Inherent immortality is opposed to the scriptural doom of the wicked.

  9. It supersedes the necessity of the resurrection.

  10. It reduces the judgment scene to a solemn farce.

  11. It subverts the bible doctrine of Christ's second coming.

  12. It is a prolific source of error -Mohammedanism, Shakerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Purgatory, Mariolatry, Universalism, Eternal-Tormentism.” - [cited from] http://www.sundaylaw.net/studies/truelife/immortality/reformat.htm

Martin Luther:

 

"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..."

"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says, “Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96]” - Intermediate state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Elsewhere Luther states that:

 

As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

This current house [mortal] and that one to come at the resurrection [immortal, swallowing up death with eternal life], and there is no house [except the grave; Job 4:19, Job 17:13; Isaiah 26:19; Nahum 3:19; etc] inbetween, only death [unclothed], asleep, awaiting the resurrection.


For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Corinthians 5:2

If so be that
being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:3

For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

 

When did Paul himself expect that to be? At "that day", being "the last day", even at "the last trump", at the very "appearing" [this word is used of Christ's Second Advent/Coming] of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of Glory, coming in Power and Glory:


For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 1 Thessalonians 2:9

Henceforth
there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8

 

And again,


Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51

 

When?


In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

For
the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

But
every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

 

Paul knew what even Job stated:


And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God. Job 19:26

Whom
I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold... Job 19:27;p

 

For notice the question that Job asks:

 

For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Job 14:7

Though
the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; Job 14:8

[Yet] through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. Job 14:9


But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? Job 14:10

 

Well when "man dieth... where [is] he?"

And how does he answer?:


[As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: Job 14:11

 

So too, we "fail" and "decayeth" and "drieth up" and are returned unto "dust"...


So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12

...
hide me in the grave, ... keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, ... appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13;p [The Wrath of God is the 7 Last Plagues]

If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14

Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee... Job 14:15;p

 

Job knew he would die, return unto dust, and 'wait' in the grave, in death, unconscious, knowing nothing, until Jesus called him forth in the resurrection "at the last day" when the "trump of God" shall sound, and then he would answer that call to immortal life.

 

 

[4] Let us see a similar passage in Romans 8, in which Paul explains that we are "waiting" for our freedom from the "bondage of corruption" [our current mortal body], when we "at the last trump" shall be "clothed" with that immortal one, the only 'inbetween' would to be the grave, which is death, asleep, without consciousness, in the grave, awaiting as Job would be and still is, etc:


Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8:21

For we know that
the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:22

And not only [they],
but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23

 

[5] In Genesis 2:7:

 

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

 

We see how mankind was created a “living soul”, by being made of two things, which combined, made a third whole [“dust of the earth” [lifeless] + “breath of life of God” breathed into “the nostrils” = “living soul”, the whole living being], and understanding that, helps us all to further understand what happen in [1st] death.

 

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

 

Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29

 

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

 

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

 

The only reason there is even these deaths [plural] at all, instead of instant destruction to man, is because of Christ Jesus, the promise of His life and sacrifice, our surety from the very beginning:

 

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8

 

Paul knew this, why then don't most Christians? Because the doctrine of the 'immortal soul/spirit' is one of the two main pillars of the doctrines of the devil, for it allows him access to almost anyone on earth through various means of deception. That is why God forbids spiritism.

 

PS. I forgot to include the original subject, Paul being stoned, and was not actually dead. I apologize. Here are those texts:

 

And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. Acts 14:19

 

Supposing: νομισαντες: 2nd Def, to suppose, deem or think.  They merely thought Paul died, but we see by the very next verse, Paul was alive:

 

Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe. Acts 14:20

 

In yet another verse, we see Paul speak again of this incident, but notice, he never mentions that he actually died:

 

Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 2 Corinthians 11:25

 

Then considering that 2 Corinthians 12:1-7, we can see that it is not linked, either by the timeframe [see for instance some indicate Acts 22:17, though I am not particular at this point about that text, etc] or the content, notice that Paul speaks of this particular event as does John the Apostle upon the Isle of Patmos, or as Daniel the Prophet, speaking of "visions" and "revelations" and being "caught up" in them and nothing about being stoned or dying [the dead know nothing, remember, yet spiritism teaches one gains knowledge from being dead] or any such matter:

 

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12:1

 

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

 

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 2 Corinthians 12:3

 

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

 

Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 2 Corinthians 12:5

 

For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 2 Corinthians 12:6

 

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7

Edited by banner over me was love

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There is no implication of a span of time in that verse - "and" is a joiner - it inherently joins the two concepts together, it does not divide them apart.

You can redefine and reinterpret these verses as much as you like but it does not indicate or suggest a time span between these two things.

And the rest of the post is more bloating and guff to distract from the verse itself. Edited by DaveW

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"Soul sleep" is clearly nowhere to be found in Scripture. As Dave has pointed out, much twisting of Scripture and even insinuating lying by Jesus and the Apostles is necessary to overcome their clear teachings in Scripture that heaven or hell is the instant new abode of all who die; no sleeping of souls.

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You waste a lot of space to answer very simple things, and in doing so its clear you have no answer. Your argument about Samuel being not Samuel doesn't prove it wasn't Samuel, simply because the Bible specifically states that it IS Samuel.  Whenever dealing with devils, the Bible states they are devils.

 

"And in th e synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God. (Luke 4:33, 34.) Clearly the devil, not the man, is speaking.

 

Yet the Bible calls the spirit that the witch 'brought up', (though indeed, Samuel says that Saul brought him up), Samuel each time; were it a devil impersonating Samuel, the Bible would specify it. So your argument has no merit; its just that the simple truth doesn't fit SDA doctrine so the truth must be altered to fit.

 

Absent from the body=present with the Lord:

  How can you even argue it, since the SDA doesn't believe the spirit/soul even leaves the body, but remains with the body until the resurrection, sleeping in the grave? Yet Paul says that we will be absent from the body. This occurs AT death, not at some time afterward. Notice:

 

  For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.  All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" (Ecc 3:19-21)

 

Notice, at death, the body of man, as the body of the beast, goes to the dust, but the spirit of the man 'goeth upward', while the spirit of the beast "goeth downward to the earth" The difference between man and beast is the spirit, the life-the beast has no life after death-the spirit ends, while the spirit of man, the life thereof, goes up, to the presence of God. The spirit is not ust breath, as virtually every instance of its use in scripture verifies-it is the life of man, the person, the emotions, the character, and at death it departs to either Heaven, for the believer, or to Hell, for the unbeliever.

 

How about the soul? In many uses it is interchangabe with spirit-it is the life force, so to speak, the person. It, too leaves the body at death, and does not sleep.

 

And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died ) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. (Gen 35:18) Soul departing. Apparently not sleeping in the earth.

 

"And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." (1Kings 17:21, 22) Apparently the child's soul went somewhere, and came back into him. Not sleeping in the earth.

 

See, the Bibe is really much simpler than you have been taught to believe it is. I don't need to give a hundred verses from all over the Bible and try to make them all somehow intermesh in a single thought to prove my point. The Bible is a simple book, with simple truths. Salvation is simple: doctrine is simple. we CAN, indeed, come to the Lord as a little child and receive the Spirit of God. Stop trying to over-think it all, and receive the simplicity of Christ.

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The comma should actually be after the word “To day” and not before it, like so, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.”


You do realise that this makes no sense grammatically?

And you also realise that your Greek quote above that section has no commas at all in it?
That might be because their language works a little differently - often the "grammar" is implied in the gender, the order, and tense of the words.

personally, I am going to trust 70 men who were experts in their languages and agreed on the structure of that verse over some bloke who knows a fraction of the Greek that these men knew who on his own decided, because of his own individual doctrinal errors, that he knew better.

And once again you quoted huge sections of the Bible which do not influence in any way the placement of a single comma, and added in argument upon argument and quotes from men who do not even refer to the comma, and gushings of your own babbling, to try to "prove" a point that requires a single verse and a reasoned reading with a basic understanding of grammar to see that you are wrong.

proof positive and evidence abundant of your tactic to deceive through confusion. Edited by DaveW
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[Banner Over Me Was Love] Moses slept in death and was resurrected by Jesus and then taken to Heaven.

 

[Ukulelemike] This is read into the Bible, an assumption not there based on a false premise.

 

[Banner Over Me Was Love] Elijah was taken to Heaven without seeing the sleep of death.

 

[Ukulelemike] True

 

 

 

The [basic] Claim:  Moses and Elijah weren’t sleeping (Matt. 17:1-4) and are in Heaven, Moses never was resurrected, though Elijah was taken to Heaven without seeing death and so how can you say that those that die are asleep in their graves knowing nothing?

 

Here are the texts in consideration: 2 Kings 2:1-25; Matthew 16:28 - Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-37; Romans 5:4; Jude 1:9; 2 Peter 1:1-21; and various others

 

2 Kings 2:1-25

 

And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Kings 2:1

 

And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel. 2 Kings 2:2

 

And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 2 Kings 2:3

 

And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho. 2 Kings 2:4

 

And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 2 Kings 2:5

 

And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on. 2 Kings 2:6

 

And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan. 2 Kings 2:7

 

And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground. 2 Kings 2:8

 

And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 2 Kings 2:9

 

And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. 2 Kings 2:10

 

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

 

And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 2 Kings 2:12

 

He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan; 2 Kings 2:13

 

And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over. 2 Kings 2:14

 

And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him. 2 Kings 2:15

 

And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 2 Kings 2:16

 

And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. 2 Kings 2:17

 

And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not? 2 Kings 2:18

 

And the men of the city said unto Elisha, Behold, I pray thee, the situation of this city is pleasant, as my lord seeth: but the water is naught, and the ground barren. 2 Kings 2:19

 

And he said, Bring me a new cruse, and put salt therein. And they brought it to him. 2 Kings 2:20

 

And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land. 2 Kings 2:21

 

So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake. 2 Kings 2:22

 

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 2 Kings 2:23

 

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 2 Kings 2:24

 

And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria. 2 Kings 2:25

 

 

Matthew 16:28 - Matthew 17:1-13

 

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28

 

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, Matthew 17:1

 

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. Matthew 17:2

 

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:3

 

Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Matthew 17:4

 

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. Matthew 17:5

 

And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. Matthew 17:6

 

And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. Matthew 17:7

 

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. Matthew 17:8

 

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Matthew 17:9

 

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? Matthew 17:10

 

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. Matthew 17:11

 

But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Matthew 17:12

 

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. Matthew 17:13

 

 

Mark 9:1-13

 

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 9:1

 

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. Mark 9:2

 

And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. Mark 9:3

 

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. Mark 9:4

 

And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Mark 9:5

 

For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. Mark 9:6

 

And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Mark 9:7

 

And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. Mark 9:8

 

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. Mark 9:9

 

And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. Mark 9:10

 

And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? Mark 9:11

 

And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. Mark 9:12

 

But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him. Mark 9:13

 

 

Luke 9:27-37

 

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27

 

And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. Luke 9:28

 

And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. Luke 9:29

 

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Luke 9:30

 

Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. Luke 9:31

 

But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. Luke 9:32

 

And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. Luke 9:33

 

While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. Luke 9:34

 

And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Luke 9:35

 

And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. Luke 9:36

 

And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him. Luke 9:37

 

 

Romans 5:4

 

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:4

 

 

Jude 1:9

 

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

 

 

2 Peter 1:1-21

 

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

 

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 2 Peter 1:2

 

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 2 Peter 1:3

 

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:4

 

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 2 Peter 1:5

 

And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 2 Peter 1:6

 

And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 2 Peter 1:7

 

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:8

 

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:9

 

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 2 Peter 1:10

 

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:11

 

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 2 Peter 1:12

 

Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 2 Peter 1:13

 

Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 2 Peter 1:14

 

Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 2 Peter 1:15

 

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16

 

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 2 Peter 1:17

 

And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2 Peter 1:18

 

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2 Peter 1:19

 

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1 Peter 1:20

 

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21

 

 

Malachi 4:1-6

 

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

 

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. Malachi 4:2

 

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 4:3

 

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Malachi 4:4

 

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Malachi 4:5

 

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Malachi 4:6

 

 

Various Texts:

 

Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: Deuteronomy 4:21

 

But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. Deuteronomy 4:22

 

And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan. Deuteronomy 31:2

 

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation. Deuteronomy 31:14

 

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Deuteronomy 31:16

 

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deuteronomy 34:5

 

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:6

 

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. Deuteronomy 34:7

 

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended. Deuteronomy 34:8

 

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. Matthew 11:24

 

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Matthew 16:14

 

Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. Matthew 27:47

 

The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Matthew 27:49

 

Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets. Mark 6:15

 

And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets. Mark 8:28

 

And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias. Mark 15:35

 

And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down. Mark 15:36

 

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Luke 1:17

 

But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; Luke 4:25

 

But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. Luke 4:26

 

Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead; Luke 9:7

 

And of some, that Elias had appeared; and of others, that one of the old prophets was risen again. Luke 9:8

 

And Herod said, John have I beheaded: but who is this, of whom I hear such things? And he desired to see him. Luke 9:9

 

And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? Luke 9:18

 

They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again. Luke 9:19

 

He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. Luke 9:20

 

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? Luke 9:54

 

And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. John 1:21

 

And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? John 1:25

 

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Romans 11:2

 

Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. James 5:17

 

 

Now, let us consider what we may from these texts. First we shall consider Elijah, and then Moses.

 

Elijah:

 

[1] To any which claim that Elijah is in Heaven, and is not therefore sleeping, would be correct. He is one of the very few Biblical exceptions. This is not because Elijah died and was buried and suddenly found himself in Heaven as some immortalized man-shade without a body, but because he was changed and glorified and wholly and directly taken to Heaven without seeing death by an angel of God. We may see this from the scriptures:

 

And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Kings 2:1

 

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

 

And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 2 Kings 2:12

 

Elisha, knew this event was to take place, and would not leave the side of Elijah for anything short of the event:

 

“... As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. ...” 2 Kings 2:2

 

And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 2 Kings 2:3

 

“...As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. ...” 2 Kings 2:4

 

And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 2 Kings 2:5

 

“... As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. ...” 2 Kings 2:6

 

...

 

And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 2 Kings 2:9

 

And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. 2 Kings 2:10

 

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

 

And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 2 Kings 2:12

 

For any which may think that Elijah simply went up and was deposited on earth elsewhere later to die, we see by the very scriptures that Elijah was indeed taken to Heaven alive, and Elisha knew that to search on earth for Elijah would be fruitless:

 

And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 2 Kings 2:16

 

And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. 2 Kings 2:17

 

And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not? 2 Kings 2:18

 

Further we read, that even the children of the area knew of the taking up of Elijah to Heaven, and mocked at Elisha for not being taken also:

 

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 2 Kings 2:23

 

These texts are too plain to misunderstand, but we may briefly also consider a few more things.

 

 

[2] Elijah himself, literally in glory, was seen again in the days of Jesus Christ, upon the Mount of Transfiguration:

 

Matthew's account:

 

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:3

 

Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Matthew 17:4

 

...

 

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. Matthew 17:8

 

Mark's account:

 

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. Mark 9:4

 

And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Mark 9:5

 

 

And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. Mark 9:8

 

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. Mark 9:9

 

Luke's account:

 

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Luke 9:30

 

Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. Luke 9:31

 

But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. Luke 9:32

 

And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. Luke 9:33

 

 

And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. Luke 9:36

 

 

[3] We also know of the prophecy given in Malachi 4:

 

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Malachi 4:5

 

Every Jew also knew of this prophecy, though they did not understand it, and yet they understood that Elijah was in Heaven and even expected him to come back, as we find throughout the New Testament, and some even considered that John the Baptist, or even Jesus, was literally Elijah returned, though they were incorrect in this understanding, and some even misunderstood Jesus calling unto God, thinking Jesus was calling to be saved by Elijah's so-called return to earth from Heaven:

 

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Matthew 16:14

 

Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. Matthew 27:47

 

The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Matthew 27:49

 

Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets. Mark 6:15

 

And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets. Mark 8:28

 

And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias. Mark 15:35

 

And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down. Mark 15:36

 

Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead; Luke 9:7

 

And of some, that Elias had appeared; and of others, that one of the old prophets was risen again. Luke 9:8

 

And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? Luke 9:18

 

They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again. Luke 9:19

 

And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. John 1:21

 

And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? John 1:25

 

Therefore, we can see that Elijah never fell upon the sleep of death, but was taken to Heaven directly, and glorified, and various Jews of Jesus' day, though mistaken about a certain prophecy, expected him to come back from Heaven to earth at some point.

 

Now let us turn to Moses, who no longer sleeps in death, but was raised to eternal life.

 

 

Moses:

 

[1] Moses, according to the Word of the LORD, died in the land of Moab, and fell on the sleep of death, and was buried by the LORD Himself.

 

Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: Deuteronomy 4:21

 

But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. Deuteronomy 4:22

 

And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan. Deuteronomy 31:2

 

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation. Deuteronomy 31:14

 

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Deuteronomy 31:16

 

And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people: Deuteronomy 32:40

 

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deuteronomy 34:5

 

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:6

 

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. Deuteronomy 34:7

 

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended. Deuteronomy 34:8

 

And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered. Numbers 27:13

 

Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. Numbers 31:2

 

 

[2] After Moses was fallen upon the sleep of death, and was buried by the LORD [Jesus], we see in the record of Jude, that the LORD Jesus Himself [aka Michael the Archangel, Who is as God the Highest Messenger [of the Father], YHVH, the Son, God Almighty, the I AM THAT I AM, Uncreated Creator, the Word, etc* to be demonstrated from Scripture and historically later if necessary, please ask for it kindly, and it will be given] came down again unto Moses to raise him unto life. However, we see that satan resisted this and disputed against do any such thing, for since that Moses had sinned by disobeying God's command [Moses had sinned in striking the rock twice, disobeying the LORD, who had said, only speak to it [Numbers 20:8]], and the wages for sin was death [Romans 6:23], satan claimed that Moses belonged within his own power, the power of the grave ["...him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14;p] and should not be resurrected, or have life. The LORD Jesus rebukes satan and claims Moses as His own:

 

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

 

The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. 1 Samuel 2:6

 

Jesus, the greatest and highest messenger of the Father, from the very bosom of the Father, is the Resurrection and the Life, and His voice, the voice of God, can raise the dead to life [see also 1 Thessalonians 4:16]:

 

"...I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." John 11:25;p


We know that Moses was indeed resurrected for several reasons, the first of which is, that death reigned from Adam to Moses, as the following text declares:

 

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:14

 

We also know, that after Moses was specially resurrected [himself being raised to immortal life, holding his title/deed of inheritance in the name of his Deliverer and Redeemer – Jesus Christ, the very “'Angel' [messenger of the Father] of the burning Bush and of the Pillar of Cloud and Fire, the very LORD God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob]], others in the Old Testament were also resurrected, and awoken from their sleep temporarily, they yet dying and falling on sleep again, unlike Moses whom we later see come in glory with Elijah upon the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus:

 

Old Testament:

 

Elijah raises the Widow of Zarephath's [1 Kings 17:17-24];

 

Elijah raises the son of the Shunamite Woman [2 Kings 4:18-37];

 

A man and Elisha's Bones [2 Kings 13:20-21];

 

The Valley of Bones, the Resurrected Army [Ezekiel 37:1-14].

 

 

[3] Moses was indeed alive, along with Elijah, and seen in glory together, upon the Mount of Transfiguration in the days of Jesus Christ:

 

Matthew's account:

 

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:3

 

Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Matthew 17:4

 

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. Matthew 17:8

 

Mark's account:

 

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. Mark 9:4

 

And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Mark 9:5

 

And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. Mark 9:8

 

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. Mark 9:9

 

Luke's account:

 

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Luke 9:30

 

Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. Luke 9:31

 

But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. Luke 9:32

 

And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. Luke 9:33

 

And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. Luke 9:36

 

 

[4] We can know that both Moses and Elijah were literally there in glory with Jesus upon that Mount from the witnesses testimony later recorded for us:


Turning to the Gospels, we see that Jesus after making a very specific statement:

 

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28

 

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 9:1

 

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27

 

That He took 3 disciples, Peter, James & John up to a Mountain after 6 days and just before 8 days [thus it was 7 days later] of making that statement:

 

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, Matthew 17:1

 

“And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves...” Mark 9:2;p

 

And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. Luke 9:28

 

This will become important to understand when we realize that Jesus took them up, the 7th Day, and we connect this with Peter's epistles about the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ. We know that this earth is 6,000 years old, and the 7th Millennium [7th 1,000 year] is soon to come. We can know when it is near, for we are not in darkness, and He is nearer than when we first believed...

 

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. Matthew 17:2

 

“...he was transfigured before them.” Mark 9:2;p

 

And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. Mark 9:3

 

And thus we see Jesus glorified, and not Him only, but two others with Him, Moses and Elijah, in glory:

 

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:3

 

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. Mark 9:4

 

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Luke 9:30

 

Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. Luke 9:31

 

We want to take notice that Jesus was “transfigured before them”, and they saw this great thing in their direct eyesight. Furthermore we read that the 3 Disciples/Apostles were able to “behold” [Matthew 17:3; Luke 9:30] this, and them also who “appeared” [Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:31] there. Also we read that they heard Moses and Elijah “talking” [Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:31] as they “spake” [Luke 9:31] unto Jesus. They were “awake” [Luke 9:32, some translations read “fully awake” - ASV, BBE, DET, WEB, etc] to see Jesus glory and these two glorified men that “stood with” Him.


"behold": "idou" "ἰδού"; meaning: "1) behold, see, lo[ok]" [Strong's Concordance] [see also Thayer's Lexicon and Vine's Expository]

"appeared": "optanomai" "ὀπτάνομαι"; meaning: "1) to look at, behold; 2) to allow one's self to be seen, to appear" [Strong's Concordance] [see also Thayer's Lexicon and Vine's Expository]

 

Further, we can turn to Peter's account also in his epistles, where he speaks of the 2nd Advent, in the context of the Mount of Transfiguration events:


For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 2 Peter 1:17

And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2 Peter 1:18


Notice, Peter specifically says that they were "with him [Jesus] in the holy mount" and were "eyewitnesses" [they literally saw the event] of the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ, and "heard" "the voice" [of the Father].


"eyewitnesses": "epoptēs" "ἐπόπτης"; meaning: "1) an overseer, inspector; 2) spectator, eye witness of anything" [Strong's Concordance]; "...to be used here to designate those privileged to be present at the heavenly spectacle of the transfiguration of Christ." Thayer's lexicon]; "Eyewitness: primarily "an overseer" (epi, "over"), then, a "spectator, an eye-witness" of anything, is used in 2 Peter 1:16 of those who were present at the transfiguration of Christ. ... Cp. epopteuo, "to behold," 1 Peter 2:12, 3:2." [Vine's Expository]


Moses represents that group that fell on the sleep of death and will be raised unto Life and changed at the 2nd Advent, and Elijah represent those who will be remaining alive and so changed in the twinkling of an eye and translated directly at the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ when He comes in glory. As a side note the special resurrected group at Jesus own resurrection represented the First fruits of the Great Harvest of Life to come, and Enoch represents all those who walked daily with God and communed with Him, and they shall be taken from here at that time to return to Heaven with Jesus for 1,000 years...

 

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51

 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

 

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:53

 

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:54

 

Then we shall all shout and sing together, and sing the Song of Moses and of the Lamb:

 

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:55

Edited by banner over me was love

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Posted · Report post

Michael the Archangel IS NOT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Jesus IS NOT AN ANGEL- but God manifest in the flesh.

You are misrepresenting once again the Biblical account.

And you have again included much irrelevant information so as to overwhelm the reader and cause confusion.

You also misrepresent constantly the link between death and sleep, for the pernicious purpose of deceiving the reader.

Soul sleep is not stated nor implied in the Word of God.

It is a false doctrine taught by false prophets who have been shown to be in error and untrustworthy, both in your wicked SDA and in others also, such ad the Christadelphians who also hold to this deceit.

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...You also misrepresent constantly the link between death and sleep, for the pernicious purpose of deceiving the reader.

Soul sleep is not stated nor implied in the Word of God.

It is a false doctrine taught by false prophets who have been shown to be in error and untrustworthy, both in your wicked SDA and in others also, such ad the Christadelphians who also hold to this deceit.

Tell you what Brother,

 

Would you consider a more simpler approach?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E9uiaw5qgs

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkRxGAhVqmc

Edited by banner over me was love

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Posted · Report post

Not care to address the ABSOLUTELY FALSE CLAIM THAT MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL IS JESUS?

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If there is no agreement upon who Jesus is, then any further discussion would be pointless.

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Not sure of your point in all your verses-they do nothing to prove your point. I agree that Elijah was taken up bodily-no disagreement there, you don't have to convince anyone. As for Moses sleeping in the grave, obviously not, since he was with Jesus and obviously knew of the work He had before Him-why bring Moses up out of sleep, give him a run-down on what's happening, then send him off again? or even keep him in heaven-he wasn't resurrected when he was with Jesus-he was spirit.

Notice, even Peter said, in one of the verses you quoted:  "Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me." (2 Peter 1:13,14)

 

He was going to PUT OFF the tabernacle which he was in, as one might put off a piece of clothing-that means he would leave it. No sleeping in the dust for Peter!

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I have already told everyone the point of the multiplicity of verses and extraneous information he uses - it is to confuse and overwhelm with information.
It matters not if it is relevant - and much of it is not - just so long as it pads out to make it look like a comprehensive answer.

I don't know why he is persisting with this rubbish - it takes minimal effort to point out the errors and tactics, and I certainly don't watch his corrupt videos, nor do I take the time to read all of his lies and misinterpretations.

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I have already told everyone the point of the multiplicity of verses and extraneous information he uses - it is to confuse and overwhelm with information.
It matters not if it is relevant - and much of it is not - just so long as it pads out to make it look like a comprehensive answer.

I don't know why he is persisting with this rubbish - it takes minimal effort to point out the errors and tactics, and I certainly don't watch his corrupt videos, nor do I take the time to read all of his lies and misinterpretations.

I suspect most of us understand this-its standard tactic of many false religions to seek to confound with overwhelming amounts of information in order to gain legitimacy. I have no doubt he fully believes what he is saying, but also that he was brought into their fold the same way that he now works. I believe the dear boy, (I think), is sadly missing the great simplicity found in the Bible.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" 2Cor 11:3

Sadly, that which you call HIS lies are not his, but they belong to a pernicious system that has enticed many very intelligent persons into their fold. Our desire, of course, is to convince him otherwise, that perhaps he might be redeemed from among them, basically the same goal that he seeks for us, though he is mistaken. His faith is ultimately in their system.

 

Let's consider some of the prophecies of their prophetess, Ellen G. White, whom the church still holds to have been a true prophet of God:

 

   Mrs. White made this statement at a church conference in 1856 and it received notoriety because it was published in her "Testimonies to the Church" and many church members read it. Mrs. White describes her "vision":  "I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.'" Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 131

  I would say this did not come to pass-she was wrong, her prophecy failed. I suspect all those people are, as she said first, food for worms already, including herself.

 

In 1864 she wrote:"The human family was presented before me, enfeebled. Every generation has been growing weaker, and disease of every form visits the human race.... Satan's power upon the human family increases. If the Lord should not soon come and destroy his power, the earth would soon be depopulated." Testimony #8, p.94, in Spiritual Gifts III-IV 

In fact, the earth has grown in numbers considerably since that time, and the Lord has not yet returned.  Failed.

 

How about the revival of slavery?  "Slavery will again be revived in the Southern States; for the spirit of slavery still lives. Therefore it will not do for those who labor among the colored people to preach the truth as boldly and openly as they would be free to do in other places. Even Christ clothed His lessons in figures and parables to avoid the opposition of the Pharisees." (Spalding & Magan Collection, page 21 and 2 MR #153, page 300)

  Considering we now have, for good or evil, the first black man as President of the US, I'd say this was another failure.

 

The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah on San Francisco and Oakland? "San Francisco and Oakland are becoming as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Lord will visit them. Not far hence they will suffer under His judgments."--Ms 30, 1903.

 Now certainly a few years later San Fran got hit with a mighty earthquake, yet today, it still stands as wicked as ever, a great political power still. And Oakland was barely touched by that earthquake. As I recall, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was total and absolute. SO maybe we have to decide on what she meant by "not far hence".

 

Of course, we can deal in great depth, though we won't, on her  devilish doctrine of abstaining from meats.  What did she say on this subject?

 " The Lord would bring His people into a position where they will not touch nor taste the flesh of dead animals. Then let not these things be prescribed by any physician who has a knowledge of the truth for this time. There is no safety in eating the flesh of dead animals, and in a short time the milk of the cow will also be excluded from the diet of God's commandment- keeping people. In a short time it will not be safe to use anything that comes from the animal creation. Those who take God at His word and obey His commandments with the whole heart will be blessed. He will be their shield of protection. But the Lord will not be trifled with. Distrust, disobedience, and alienation from God's will and way will place the sinner in a position where the Lord cannot give him His divine favor." 18MR 354

Notice, above, where I have made bold, that she claimed the LORD would bring us to not eating animal flesh. Add, since this clearly stands in opposition to His very word, where He has told us such things as 25Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:  Shambles is a word for a marketplace where meat is sold. So we can eat meat with no problem in our conscience. Jesus ate meat, and in fact, it was prescribed for Him, as well as all Israel, as a part of the Passover feast, to eat "flesh meats" from a lamb or a kid.  Peter was commended to eat ALL meats, which the Lord Himself called clean, even thus removing the Mosaic ban on certain meats. The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.

 

"You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go? You have a work to do first. When you have done all for your children which God has left for you to do then you can with confidence claim the special help that God has promised to give you." 2T 361

  In fact, history and science has proven that some of the healthiest things a person can eat are meat, eggs butter and milk. I believe that, despite her claims to the opposite, Ellen White's continual poor health was partly caused by her poor diet, if indeed she actually held to a vegetarian diet.

 

"Men and women, by indulging the appetite in eating rich and highly seasoned foods, especially flesh-meats, with rich gravies, and by using stimulating drinks, as tea and coffee, create unnatural appetites. The system becomes fevered, the organs of digestion are injured, the mental faculties are beclouded, while the baser passions are excited, and predominate over the nobler faculties. The appetite becomes more unnatural, and more difficult of restraint. The circulation of the blood is not equalized, and the blood becomes impure. The whole system is deranged, and the demands of appetite become more unreasonable, craving exciting, hurtful things, until it is thoroughly depraved." RH JUN.27,1899

While perhaps gravies are not the best, the rest of this drivel is easily dismissed as poor understanding of nutrition. She just didn't know what she was talking about. And for someone who claims to be speaking as a prophet, this is disturbing, to say the least.

 

Remember as well that the Bible says  that commanding to abstain from meats is a "doctrine of devils." I seriously doubt that the Lord would have Paul write such a thing, then later send word to command to abstain from meats.

 

SDA stands and falls upon the writings and peculiar doctrines of Ellen G. White. She is found a false prophet, and a teacher of doctrines of devils, with poor understanding of diet and nutrition. 

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Not care to address the ABSOLUTELY FALSE CLAIM THAT MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL IS JESUS?

 

Brother DaveW,

 

Yes, I will come to that for you, and for anyone who desires to consider the subject, after I complete responding to anothers posts.  I am almost complete with those.  Please have patience with me a little while longer and I will pay thee all.

 

To help you out a little, and to give you something to consider on this subject before we get into it, please go and read Malachi 3:1 very 'carefully', and I am going to ask that when we do come to the subject, that you read what I say in the same.

Edited by banner over me was love

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