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Considering The Texts - John 14:1-4


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#41 banner over me was love

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 09:09 PM

What about Adam and Eve?

They sleep in Christ Jesus, even as do all of the others in Him that remain here on earth.  Abel was given, since he was placed into the ground and fell on 'sleep' first, as it is written:

 

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. Genesis 4:8

 

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Genesis 4:10

 

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:35


Edited by banner over me was love, 02 February 2014 - 09:09 PM.


#42 Ukulelemike

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 11:19 PM

Apparently Moses and Elijah don't sleep in the grave. Nor did Samuel. Or the rich man and Lazarus. Pau was stoned to death and went directly to Heaven, and was apparently quite excited as to the prospect of returning again when he spoke of being absent from the body and present with the Lord.

 

I thin Stephen, when martyred, was fuly expecting to be immediately received into glory when he said, "..., Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." I guess Stephen was just too dumb to realize that his spirit was ust ging to lay sleeping in the grave for the next couple thousand years, and not be received at that point.

 

You can point out all the verses which speak of sleeping in Christ, but they refer to the body, not the spirit, which goes to be with the Lord.



#43 banner over me was love

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 12:20 AM

Apparently Moses and Elijah don't sleep in the grave. Nor did Samuel. Or the rich man and Lazarus. Pau was stoned to death and went directly to Heaven, and was apparently quite excited as to the prospect of returning again when he spoke of being absent from the body and present with the Lord.

 

I thin Stephen, when martyred, was fuly expecting to be immediately received into glory when he said, "..., Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." I guess Stephen was just too dumb to realize that his spirit was ust ging to lay sleeping in the grave for the next couple thousand years, and not be received at that point.

 

You can point out all the verses which speak of sleeping in Christ, but they refer to the body, not the spirit, which goes to be with the Lord.

Moses slept in death and was resurrected by Jesus and then taken to Heaven.  Elijah was taken to Heaven without seeing the sleep of death.

 

Samuel is sleeping in death, and was never actually contacted by King Saul.  It was a devil masquerading as Samuel.  What King Saul did was speak with a familiar spirit through a spirit medium/witch.

 

Rich man and Lazarus is a symbolic parable, as those parables began in Luke 14.

 

Paul didn't actually die when stoned, though some may still believe he did.  The connection with Paul's saying in 2 Corinthians 12:2 is not referring back to Paul's stoning contextually.  We can also consider the saying of Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 in the timing of the little word "and".

 

Read the very next verse in Acts, it says Stephen himself fell on sleep.

 

All of the texts which speak about the sleep of death, refer to the person themselves.

 

The body returns to dust.  The breath of God returns to Himself, since it is His breath, not ours.

 

Which one would you like to look at first in detail?  You pick.


Edited by banner over me was love, 03 February 2014 - 01:30 AM.


#44 banner over me was love

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 12:33 AM

I would like to know if anyone else here also realizes that this subject is not merely a Seventh-day Adventist thing, but a "reformation" thing and even older than it - sources upon request.



#45 DaveW

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 01:17 AM

Soul sleep is taught by many false teachers.
Has been for many years.

Still doesn't make it right, true, or Biblical.

#46 DaveW

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 01:27 AM

I have a question for you, and if at all possible a SINGLE PARAGRAPH ANSWER, WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.
In fact a single sentence should be sufficient.

When an unbeliever dies, what happens to their soul?

#47 banner over me was love

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 01:42 AM

I have a question for you, and if at all possible a SINGLE PARAGRAPH ANSWER, WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.
In fact a single sentence should be sufficient.

When an unbeliever dies, what happens to their soul?

Ultimately, it will depend on what you mean by the "soul", but I will take the Biblical understanding of the term from Genesis 2:7.

 

They too sleep in death, in the dust of the earth, in their grave, etc, until their respective resurrection.  There is a special resurrection of some wicked at Jesus' 2nd Advent, but the vast majority will be raised in the resurrection of damnation at the end of the 1,000 years [7th 1,000 year, the Day of the LORD], to receive their punishment and execution of judgment, thus total annihilation, never to be any more.  I hope you do not mind a few related texts to share:

 

They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave. Job 21:13

 

There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. Job 3:17

 

Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29

 

"...they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:29

 

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ..." Revelation 20:5



#48 DaveW

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 01:57 AM

Once again a simple answer is avoided, and excess information is added to assist in muddying the waters. ......


Luke 16
22  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

 23  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


As to annihilation. ...

Rev 14

 10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

it seems the Bible has a bit of a problem with your annihilation conflicting with the Bible term "for ever and ever".

But you will no doubt have a cute way of explaining that for ever doesn't actually mean forever.....
it won't be short though......

#49 banner over me was love

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 03:44 AM

Once again a simple answer is avoided, and excess information is added to assist in muddying the waters. ......

...

As to annihilation. ...

Rev 14

 10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

it seems the Bible has a bit of a problem with your annihilation conflicting with the Bible term "for ever and ever".

But you will no doubt have a cute way of explaining that for ever doesn't actually mean forever.....
it won't be short though......

I will come back to Luke 16 in a bit, as first it will have to be demonstrated that it is indeed a symbolic parable, and then we can look at what it does actually mean line upon line.

 

It is the Smoke that Ascendeth up out of sight, like saying I saw the smoke rise up and up until I could no more discern its height [iow, 'for ever']:

 

This is exegesis, based upon the very reference that John The Apostle/Revelator is quoting from, which happens to be from Isaiah [and any Bible with notations, will verify]:


For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. Isaiah 34:8

And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. Isaiah 34:9

It shall not be quenched night nor day; the
smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. Isaiah 34:10


Quench is a verb.  Jerusalem itself was burnt with unquenchable fire [2 Kings 22:17; 2 Chronicles 34:35; Isaiah 34:10].  It does not mean that the fire does not eventually burn through its fuel, and so go out into smoke and ashes, the smoke rising up and up and up, into a height not known.  It means no one deliberately puts out the flame, nor able deliver themselves from its intensity.  They are destroyed in it.

 

Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it. Isaiah 47:14

 

See:


And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11


See also:


And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Revelation 18:9

And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Revelation 18:14

And cried when they saw
the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! Revelation 18:18

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Revelation 18:21

And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Revelation 18:22

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. Revelation 18:23

And again they said, Alleluia. And
her smoke rose up for ever and ever. Revelation 19:3


We may also directly compare to Sodom and Gomorrah, which are set forth as an example of what comes in the end, total destruction, leaving nothing, but ashes and smoke rising into the sky...:


And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. Genesis 19:28

Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:9

As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. Jeremiah 49:18

As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. Jeremiah 50:40

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Luke 17:29

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an
ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2 Peter 2:6

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are
set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7


Sodom and Gomorrah [peoples and citizens, items, animals, etc] are not still burning, nor even still smoking, they are ashes and dust, and no more for they were punished with the fire of God completely destroying them.

We may also compare to the destruction of the city of Ai:


And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and, behold, the smoke of the city ascended up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that way: and the people that fled to the wilderness turned back upon the pursuers. Joshua 8:20

And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and
that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai. Joshua 8:21


We may also compare in the book of Judges:


Now there was an appointed sign between the men of Israel and the liers in wait, that they should make a great flame with smoke rise up out of the city. Judges 20:38

But when the flame began to arise up out of the city with
a pillar of smoke, the Benjamites looked behind them, and, behold, the flame of the city ascended up to heaven. Judges 20:40


Elsewhere:


For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke. Isaiah 9:18


We may also compare to the smoke upon Mt. Sinai, where God Himself descended and touched that mountain with His own feet:


And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Exodus 19:18

 

Begin to ask, where are the all of the wicked [including Satan and his angels] standing in Revelation 20:8-9? Do they [the wicked] live there eternally or are they rather not completely destroyed so that the New Heaven and the New Earth may be created there, wherein dwelleth righteousness, peace, no more tears, pain or sorrow or sin or satan?

"...and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11;p

 

God is a consuming fire [Deuteronomy 4:24; Hebrews 12:29], even as it is written, along with definition, as to what it means:


Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee. Deuteronomy 9:3

 

As it was in the days of Lot:


And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. Genesis 19:5

And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. Genesis 19:7

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luke 17:28

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:29

 

Now see Revelation 20:


And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 20:9

"...and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11

 

Look how the word is used over and over again, in regards to the wicked:


And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. Exodus 15:7

For indeed the hand of the LORD was against them, to destroy them from among the host, until they were consumed. Deuteronomy 2:15

Hellfire indeed runs out of fuel, for this heavens and this earth will be burned up, and the wicked, being raised upon this earth, will be "consumed" together, annihilated, and gone forever, no more sin.

Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD. Psalms 104:35

And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed. Isaiah 1:28

For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: Isaiah 29:20

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. Isaiah 66:17

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:12

 

Just consider all of the passages with the word "consumed" - KJV Search Results for "consumed"

Please re-read the definition of the verb "quench":

to deliberately put out, extinguish. Read the prophetic fulillments of where God said that the fire that would destroy and raze Jerusalem to the ground would be unquenchable. It burned until the work it had to do was over and then went out, but none put it out, none quenched it. Those gates are not still burning, neither in Jerusalem, nor the plains of Sodom & Gomorrah.

The fire will burn and burn until it has nothing more to burn, and then goes out into smoke, nothing left but ashes, but no one will extinguish it. None of the wicked will able to deliver themselves from the power of this flame, it is the fire of God.


Edited by banner over me was love, 03 February 2014 - 03:48 AM.


#50 DaveW

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 04:00 AM

Yep, I was right.
Not short.

You continue to insist on avoid a simple explanation for anything so that you can confuse whoever is reading.

I remind you that Paul often explained important doctrines - like salvation - in three sentences.

I have no further need to discuss anything with you, for you have revealed your method, your mode, and the depths and source of your false teaching.

You refuse to explain things on a level where the average man can understand, instead making the simple things of God's Word so complex that they can only be understood by heeding your explanations.

THAT is quite simply, unbiblical - like much of your teaching.

#51 banner over me was love

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 04:12 AM

...  in three sentences. ...

Explain how you arrive at "God is Love" and "Just", with God being the one who tortures the wicked [even children] eternally, never letting them actually die, thus prolonging their miserable existence and their sinning into eternity?

 

I had thought that the wages for sin was death, being the second death.

 

How do you explain that the wicked have this everlasting/eternal/immortal life?



#52 Ukulelemike

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 10:22 AM

Moses slept in death and was resurrected by Jesus and then taken to Heaven.This is read into the Bible, an assumption not there based on a false premise.

 

Elijah was taken to Heaven without seeing the sleep of death.  True.

 

Samuel is sleeping in death, and was never actually contacted by King Saul.  It was a devil masquerading as Samuel.  What King Saul did was speak with a familiar spirit through a spirit medium/witch. The Bible says it was Samuel, multiple times-this explains the response of fear by the witch of Endor, who would be expecting a familiar spirit, and not Samuel himself. Remember, Saul couldn't see him, only the witch. So there would be no reason for the witch to cry in fear upon seeing him. As well, a demon would not be able to accurately tell Saul about his pending death-but Samuel, with permission of the Lord, was able to. It was also by the appearance of Samuel, not her familiar, that caused the witch to recognize Saul for who he was.

 

Rich man and Lazarus is a symbolic parable, as those parables began in Luke 14. All parables are based upon truth-When the Lord says, "There was such and such", we can believe there WAS, "such and such", because the Lord doesn't lie. Even IF the rich man and Lazarus were created characters to make a point, Jesus never used false ideas, which this would be if there was no such place of the wicked and the good after this life. You accuse Jesus of telling, not a parable, but of making a point based upon a lie. He might as well have told a parable about men on Mars. NO, ALL of Jesus' parables are grounded in truth and reality: farming, fishing, householding, hell and so forth-to take a fantasy setting and use it for a teaching moment would cause Him to lose credibility.

 

Paul didn't actually die when stoned, though some may still believe he did.  The connection with Paul's saying in 2 Corinthians 12:2 is not referring back to Paul's stoning contextually.  We can also consider the saying of Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 in the timing of the little word "and". "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Yes, that little word, "and", makes it clear that Paul is keeping the same thought complete as one thought-absent from the body, AND to be present with the Lord-once we are absent from the body, which you believe never happens at all, if I am correct, being the standard SDA doctrine, that the Spirit is not separate from the body, then this verse still disproves that idea. Paul desires to be absent from the body AND present with the Lord, both of whoich happen at death for the believer. Remeber, as well, that Jesus told the thief on the cross, "I tell thee, TODAY, thou shalt be with me in Paradise." And please, don't try the thin idea of moving the comma to make it say, I tell thee today, thou shalt be with me in Paradise." That's poor English-and why would Jesus have to specify that He was telling the thief "today", because obviously he was telling him that day. Would this be as opposed to "I tell you tomorrow, thou shalt be with me in paradise". No, He told the thief that they woule be in paradise TODAY-that very day.  The same paradise that the Lazarus was in.

 

 

Read the very next verse in Acts, it says Stephen himself fell on sleep. Indeed, but Stephen himself expoected his spirit to be 'received'; where would he get such an idea? It is the body that sleeps, the spirit that is received into glory

 

All of the texts which speak about the sleep of death, refer to the person themselves.

 

The body returns to dust.  The breath of God returns to Himself, since it is His breath, not ours. The breath-you mean the spirit, the 'pneuma'-that is not just bresath as you claim, but is the person himself. Example: Gen 41:8, the spirit of Pharoah was troubled within him-his breath was troubled?

Gen 45:27, Jacobs breath was revivied in him? No, his spirit

Ex 28:3-God filled men with the breath of wisdom? No, the spirit of wisdom.

Ex 31:3: "And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,"

Ex 35:21: And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing,

How about some New Testament verses?

Acts 19:21 Paul purposed in his breath? or his spirit? His spirit. How does one purpose to do something in his breath?

Acts 20:22: Paul was bound in his SPIRIT unto Jerusalem. Breath?

Rom 1:9: For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Rom 2:29: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

 

Which one would you like to look at first in detail?  You pick.

Now, I could go on and on and on with examples that show that the spirit is far more than the breath-the spirit is the heart, the very being of man, and yes, it beloebgs to the Lord if one is a believer, and at death it ODES go on to the Lord, but it is not breath, it is the person, himself. The body sleeps in the dust, even though that sleep may last until it is but dust, but it is still but sleep, for the Lord will raise it again one day in glory, and the dead, the lost, will be raised in corruption and dishonor. Notice, again, in 1Thes 4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. It isn't just that Jesus, (God) will raise them, but He will BRING them with Him. Where does Jesus come from in these scriptures? "The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout" (vs 16) If the Lord is descending from heaven and is said here to bring those who sleep WITH HIM, then where are those sleeping coming from? Clearly from HEAVEN, otherwise the Lord could not be bringing them with Him. Now, indeed, He calls up their bodies, sleeping in the graves, and they will meet with their spirits with the Lord, and then those who are alive and remain will be immediately changed, never having slept at all. Let's read it all in context, so I can't be said to be picking and choosing.

 

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (emphasis mine)

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

So, the dead, who sleep in Christ, the Lord will bring with Him AND they shall rise first? How can this be? Only if the spirit of those who sleep is already in Heaven with Him, to return with Him, and their bodies, sleeping in the dust, rise to meet with them.



#53 banner over me was love

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 04:35 PM

Now, I could go on and on and on with examples that show that the spirit is far more than the breath-the spirit is the heart, the very being of man, and yes, it beloebgs to the Lord if one is a believer, and at death it ODES go on to the Lord, but it is not breath, it is the person, himself. The body sleeps in the dust, even though that sleep may last until it is but dust, but it is still but sleep, for the Lord will raise it again one day in glory, and the dead, the lost, will be raised in corruption and dishonor. Notice, again, in 1Thes 4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. It isn't just that Jesus, (God) will raise them, but He will BRING them with Him. Where does Jesus come from in these scriptures? "The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout" (vs 16) If the Lord is descending from heaven and is said here to bring those who sleep WITH HIM, then where are those sleeping coming from? Clearly from HEAVEN, otherwise the Lord could not be bringing them with Him. Now, indeed, He calls up their bodies, sleeping in the graves, and they will meet with their spirits with the Lord, and then those who are alive and remain will be immediately changed, never having slept at all. Let's read it all in context, so I can't be said to be picking and choosing.

 

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (emphasis mine)

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

So, the dead, who sleep in Christ, the Lord will bring with Him AND they shall rise first? How can this be? Only if the spirit of those who sleep is already in Heaven with Him, to return with Him, and their bodies, sleeping in the dust, rise to meet with them.

Well Ukulelemike,

 

Perhaps next time, you might choose the option to look at a single text/passage, and without misunderstandings about what was stated [never was it said that the Parable of Luke 16 was not true or based on truth :) ], instead.  It was offered.  Since the response was not to a single, but to everything, I will now have to respond to everything before we may continue.  Therefore, please be patient, and wait until the reponses are given to each text/passage.  I will not be replying to anything further until this section is replied to in all of its points.

 

I hope you will actually read the responses [there will be several in depth responses to each text/passage], since I have read yours in full.



#54 Ukulelemike

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 04:49 PM

Well Ukulelemike,

 

Perhaps next time, you might choose the option to look at a single text/passage, and without misunderstandings about what was stated [never was it said that the Parable of Luke 16 was not true or based on truth :) ], instead.  It was offered.  Since the response was not to a single, but to everything, I will now have to respond to everything before we may continue.  Therefore, please be patient, and wait until the reponses are given to each text/passage.  I will not be replying to anything further until this section is replied to in all of its points.

 

I hope you will actually read the responses [there will be several in depth responses to each text/passage], since I have read yours in full.

Perhaps you never staed the parable in Luke was not based on truth, but if it IS based on truth, ei, a true place, a true situation in which any might find themselves, thus a warning of the same to all readers, it negates the theory of soul-sleep. IF Jesus spoke of a real place and real people, which I firmly believe He did, else He lied, then there is a real place of conscious torments where the lost will spend their time until the final judgment, when they will be cast into the lake of fire, and there is a real place of conscious bliss and peace where the believer will spend eternity, be it in Heaven after death until the resurrection, or the New Earth upon the passing away of the former Heavens and earth.

 

As well, I replied to the many examples you gave. Please take your time.



#55 Ukulelemike

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 05:01 PM

Let's just get down to brass tacks, shall we?  

 

Banner, upon what do you lay your hopes of eternal life? The Bible tells us this in 1John:

 

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (emphasis mine).

 

So I ask you, do you KNOW you have eternal life? If so, what do you base it upon? What is getting 'Banner Over Me Was Love' into glory for eternity?  CAN you KNOW, of assurity, that you DO have life eternal? See, we're spending all this time and effort arguning various doctrines, but this is really the most important one there is. Its the reason the entireity of the Bible was written: that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE, (not will have, but have) eternal life, and that ye may believe ON the name of the Son of God.

 

I believe, because I have been saved by grace through faith on the name of Jesus Christ, that I HAVE already eternal life, that it is a part of me, not because of me or any great thing I have done, but because God loved me, a sinner bound for hell, and He showed me my lost state, and I humbly repented of my sin and confessed before Him my sin, and was that moment a child of God, adopted intpo the family of God. And no matter how I may try, (though I generally dont), I can never again NOT be part of that family, any more than I can never be a part of my human family. And though I may wander as the prodigal son, yet the Father ever awaits me, His child, in my wanderings, to return.



#56 DaveW

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

Find a parable that names people by name - there isn't one.

The account of the rich man and Lazarus is no parable - it is a true account.

Just because you want it to be a parable doesn't make it one.

#57 Ukulelemike

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 07:12 PM

Find a parable that names people by name - there isn't one.

The account of the rich man and Lazarus is no parable - it is a true account.

Just because you want it to be a parable doesn't make it one.

I agree-but even IF...IF it WAS a parable, all the parable of Jesus are firmly rooted in fact-thus, if Jesus said some rich guy died and opened his eyes in torments of flame, then indeed, there would HAVE to be a place of conscious torment of flame. And if the Lord said, even in a parable, that even an unnamed man died and was carried by the angels to be conforted in the bosom of Abraham, where the poor man and Abraham were able to carry on a conversation with the rich man in torments, though they were in peace, then indeed, there would HAVE to be such a place and possible situation, for no other reason than that Jesus said there was. And of course, in the context, it is immediate, not long after lying in the grave-the rich man died AND opening his eyes in torment, Lazarus died AND was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.  

 

But I agree that this is no mere parable-this is an event that occurred that Jesus, being God, witnessed personally. Is there a lesson to it? Absolutely-a warning that the Pharisees and others like them would reject Jesus, even though He raised from the dead, (as they would another Lazarus who was raised from the dead). Instead of rejoicing over such miracles, because they were blinded by their riches and positions and power, they would reject the truth, clearly set before their eyes, and hold to lies to maintain their temporal riches and power. But again, it wasn't just a simple parable as you say. Amen!



#58 banner over me was love

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 07:48 PM

[Banner Over Me Was Love] Samuel is sleeping in death, and was never actually contacted by King Saul.  It was a devil masquerading as Samuel.  What King Saul did was speak with a familiar spirit through a spirit medium/witch
 
[Ukulelemike] The Bible says it was Samuel, multiple times-this explains the response of fear by the witch of Endor, who would be expecting a familiar spirit, and not Samuel himself. Remember, Saul couldn't see him, only the witch. So there would be no reason for the witch to cry in fear upon seeing him. As well, a demon would not be able to accurately tell Saul about his pending death-but Samuel, with permission of the Lord, was able to. It was also by the appearance of Samuel, not her familiar, that caused the witch to recognize Saul for who he was.

 

The Claim:  Samuel the Prophet wasn’t sleeping (1 Sam. 28:7-19)

 

Here are the texts and immediate local context of 1 Samuel 28:1-25; 31:1-13; 2 Samuel 1:1-4,23; 1 Chronicles 10:1-14.

 

1 SAMUEL 28:1-25

 

And it came to pass in those days, that the Philistines gathered their armies together for warfare, to fight with Israel. And Achish said unto David, Know thou assuredly, that thou shalt go out with me to battle, thou and thy men. 1 Samuel 28:1

 

And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever. 1 Samuel 28:2

 

Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. 1 Samuel 28:3

 

And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa. 1 Samuel 28:4

 

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. 1 Samuel 28:5

 

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. 1 Samuel 28:6

 

Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, [there is] a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 1 Samuel 28:7

 

And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee. 1 Samuel 28:8

 

And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 1 Samuel 28:9

 

And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 1 Samuel 28:10

 

Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 1 Samuel 28:11

 

And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou [art] Saul. 1 Samuel 28:12

 

And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 1 Samuel 28:13

 

And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself. 1 Samuel 28:14

 

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 1 Samuel 28:15

 

Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 1 Samuel 28:16

 

And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, [even] to David: 1 Samuel 28:17

 

Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 1 Samuel 28:18

 

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 1 Samuel 28:19

 

Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night. 1 Samuel 28:20

 

And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me. 1 Samuel 28:21

 

Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way. 1 Samuel 28:22

 

But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed. 1 Samuel 28:23

 

And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded [it], and did bake unleavened bread thereof: 1 Samuel 28:24

 

And she brought [it] before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night. 1 Samuel 28:25

 

 

1 SAMUEL 31:1-13

 

Now the Philistines fought against Israel: and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa. 1 Samuel 31:1

 

And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul's sons. 1 Samuel 31:2

 

And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers. 1 Samuel 31:3

 

Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 1 Samuel 31:4

 

And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him. 1 Samuel 31:5

 

So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together. 1 Samuel 31:6

 

And when the men of Israel that [were] on the other side of the valley, and [they] that [were] on the other side Jordan, saw that the men of Israel fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, they forsook the cities, and fled; and the Philistines came and dwelt in them. 1 Samuel 31:7

 

And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his three sons fallen in mount Gilboa. 1 Samuel 31:8

 

And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish [it in] the house of their idols, and among the people. 1 Samuel 31:9

 

And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan. 1 Samuel 31:10

 

And when the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead heard of that which the Philistines had done to Saul; 1 Samuel 31:11

 

All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there. 1 Samuel 31:12

 

And they took their bones, and buried [them] under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days. 1 Samuel 31:13

 

 

2 SAMUEL 1:1-4,23

 

Now it came to pass after the death of Saul, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Amalekites, and David had abode two days in Ziklag; 2 Samuel 1:1

 

It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and [so] it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance. 2 Samuel 1:2

 

And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped. 2 Samuel 1:3

 

And David said unto him, How went the matter? I pray thee, tell me. And he answered, That the people are fled from the battle, and many of the people also are fallen and dead; and Saul and Jonathan his son are dead also. 2 Samuel 1:4

 

...

 

Saul and Jonathan [were] lovely and pleasant in their lives, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions. 2 Samuel 1:23

 

 

1 CHRONICLES 10:1-14

 

Now the Philistines fought against Israel; and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa. 1 Chronnicles 10:1

 

And the Philistines followed hard after Saul, and after his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, the sons of Saul. 1 Chronicles 10:2

 

And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him, and he was wounded of the archers. 1 Chronicles 10:3

 

Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 1 Chronicles 10:4

 

And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise on the sword, and died. 1 Chronicles 10:5

 

So Saul died, and his three sons, and all his house died together. 1 Chronicles 10:6

 

And when all the men of Israel that [were] in the valley saw that they fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, then they forsook their cities, and fled: and the Philistines came and dwelt in them. 1 Chronicles 10:7

 

And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his sons fallen in mount Gilboa. 1 Chronicles 10:8

 

And when they had stripped him, they took his head, and his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to carry tidings unto their idols, and to the people. 1 Chronicles 10:9

 

And they put his armour in the house of their gods, and fastened his head in the temple of Dagon. 1 Chronicles 10:10

 

And when all Jabeshgilead heard all that the Philistines had done to Saul, 1 Chronicles 10:11

 

They arose, all the valiant men, and took away the body of Saul, and the bodies of his sons, and brought them to Jabesh, and buried their bones under the oak in Jabesh, and fasted seven days. 1 Chronicles 10:12

 

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, [even] against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking [counsel] of [one that had] a familiar spirit, to enquire [of it]; 1 Chronicles 10:13

 

And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. 1 Chronicles 10:14

 

 

Before we see what we may gain from these texts, we shall consider the background leading up to these events, as they have a direct bearing upon the last events of Saul before his death:

 

God, after taking out of the world for Himself a peculiar and chosen people [Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 14:2, 26:18; Psalms 135:4; even as we Christians are called to be Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 2:9], Israel [Deuteronomy 4:20], so ruled directly over the children of Israel in a Heavenly Theocracy [Divine Government], “before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.” [Genesis 36:31]. After some time had passed, and the hearts of the people began to turn away from the Lord, there was the time of the periods of the Judges [see book of Judges] and “In those days [there was] no king in Israel, [but] every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes.” [Judges 17:6; see also Judges 21:25], but at the end of the periods of these Judges came the sons of old prophet/seer [1 Samuel 9:9,18,19] Samuel, “And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel.” [1 Samuel 8:1], which “...walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.” [1 Samuel 8:3]. This brought the people to sin further by asking for them a human King over them [“...that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness [is] great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.” [1 Samuel 12:17]] instead of God, “Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,” [1 Samuel 8:4]; “And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.” [1 Samuel 8:5] and the peoples “refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;” [1 Samuel 8:19]; “That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.” [1 Samuel 8:20] and so a human king of Israel was to be chosen by God over them, “And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.” [1 Samuel 8:22].

 

Such a human king over Israel was to be chosen, and so it was that person “whose name [was] Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and [there was] not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward [he was] higher than any of the people.” [1 Samuel 9:2] of whom was found of the tribe of Benjamin [1 Samuel 9:1,2], being “a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin?” [1 Samuel 9:21], for Samuel had already known of the person even before he came [1 Samuel 9:15,19,20], for God had told Samuel, “To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him [to be] captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.” [1 Samuel 9:16]; “And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over my people.” [1 Samuel 9:17].

 

This Saul, though “a choice young man, and a goodly” and tall, even “higher than any of the people”, was at the first humble and shy, obedient in seeking the counsel of God, even at the feet of the prophet of the Lord, Samuel [1 Samuel 9:18,19], “(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for [he that is] now [called] a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)” [1 Samuel 9:9]; “Then said Saul to his servant, Well said; come, let us go. So they went unto the city where the man of God [was].” [1 Samuel 9:10]; and when Saul was told that it was upon him and all his “father's house” that “all the desire of Israel” [1 Samuel 9:20] rested, that “...Saul answered and said, [Am] not I a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin? wherefore then speakest thou so to me?” [1 Samuel 9:21]. When told what to do by the prophet Samuel, Saul at the first listened and obeyed, and so became the anointed of the Lord and made King over Israel, even prophesying and given a new heart: “[And] as they were going down to the end of the city, Samuel said to Saul, Bid the servant pass on before us, (and he passed on,) but stand thou still a while, that I may shew thee the word of God.” [1 Samuel 9:27]; “Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured [it] upon his head, and kissed him, and said, [Is it] not because the LORD hath anointed thee [to be] captain over his inheritance?” [1 Samuel 10:1]; “And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.” [1 Samuel 10:6]; “And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, [that] thou do as occasion serve thee; for God [is] with thee.” [1 Samuel 10:7]; “And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, [and] to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.” [1 Samuel 10:8]; “And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.” [1 Samuel 10:9], and yet he was still meek and shy enough that when all the people asked after Saul, they could not find him, for he was in hiding, “Therefore they enquired of the LORD further, if the man should yet come thither. And the LORD answered, Behold, he hath hid himself among the stuff.” [1 Samuel 10:22] and the people “...they ran and fetched him thence: and when he stood among the people, he was higher than any of the people from his shoulders and upward.” [1 Samuel 10:23] and so “...all the people went to Gilgal; and there they made Saul king before the LORD in Gilgal; and there they sacrificed sacrifices of peace offerings before the LORD; and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly.” [1 Samuel 11:15]

 

But already there was a forewarning by God, that if they would not obey Him, He would not protect them, “But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as [it was] against your fathers.” [1 Samuel 12:15]; “But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king.” [1 Samuel 12:25]. It is here that we have the foreshadowing of the downfall of King Saul and the peoples, from exalted by grace to abased in disgrace.

 

Though Saul at the early outset of his kingship, “Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel,” [1 Samuel 13:1], was walking with the Lord, he began to become impatient and take things into his own control, and when his sin made known, to make excuses for them, and so we see that the Kingdom was to be taken from him and given to another, even prophesied of Samuel, long before any 'spirit' 'summoned' of the witch of Endor said anything:

 

And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel [had appointed]: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him.” [1 Samuel 13:8]; “And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering.” [1 Samuel 13:9]; “And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him.” [1 Samuel 13:10]; “And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and [that] thou camest not within the days appointed, and [that] the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;” [1 Samuel 13:11]; “Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.” [1 Samuel 13:12]; “And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.” [1 Samuel 13:13]; “But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him [to be] captain over his people, because thou hast not kept [that] which the LORD commanded thee.” [1 Samuel 13:14]

 

All false worship is made in such a way, where it has the appearance and semblance of true religion and of acceptance with God, yet it does not, for it is even after the way of Cain [Genesis 4:5], even as it will be in the end, true worship vs the false [see Revelation 12-18, etc; “worship”].

 

Saul also began to make foolish oaths and human tests not appointed of God, which endangered the health of the people, even his own son Jonathan, which were only his, by permission, gift and stewardship of God. Thus it was that we see Saul, instead of being sacrificial for the people and their wellbeing, made them to suffer for his honor, that he would be avenged upon his enemies:

 

And the men of Israel were distressed that day: for Saul had adjured the people, saying, Cursed [be] the man that eateth [any] food until evening, that I may be avenged on mine enemies. So none of the people tasted [any] food.” [1 Samuel 14:24]; “Then answered one of the people, and said, Thy father straitly charged the people with an oath, saying, Cursed [be] the man that eateth [any] food this day. And the people were faint.” [1 Samuel 14:28]; “Then said Jonathan, My father hath troubled the land: see, I pray you, how mine eyes have been enlightened, because I tasted a little of this honey.” [1 Samuel 14:29]

 

This rashness, foolishness and sin of King Saul, thus led the people into sin [1 Samuel 14:33-34], for their faintness, they did which is forbidden of them to do, which it is forbidden for any follower of God to eat the blood [Leviticus 17:2; many, many texts, even in the New Testament, etc], and is a warning to all leadership [take ye heed ye leaders and under-shepherds of the flock of the Lord]:

 

And they smote the Philistines that day from Michmash to Aijalon: and the people were very faint.” [1 Samuel 14:31]; “And the people flew upon the spoil, and took sheep, and oxen, and calves, and slew [them] on the ground: and the people did eat [them] with the blood.” [1 Samuel 14:32]

 

Yet all was not yet lost for Saul, though the Kingdom was yet lost to him, he may have been forgiven, and had other chances, but in these he also did not obey, and made excuses, claiming to have obeyed, even unto the honor of God, but did not carry out the commands of the Lord:

 

Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee [to be] king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.” [1 Samuel 15:1]; “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” [1 Samuel 15:3]; “But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all [that was] good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing [that was] vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.” [1 Samuel 15:9]; “Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,” [1 Samuel 15:10]; “It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.” [1 Samuel 15:11]; “And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed [be] thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD.” [1 Samuel 15:13]; “And Samuel said, What [meaneth] then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?” [1 Samuel 15:14]; “And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.” [1 Samuel 15:15]; “Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on.” [1 Samuel 15:16]; “And Samuel said, When thou [wast] little in thine own sight, [wast] thou not [made] the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel?” [1 Samuel 15:17]; “And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.” [1 Samuel 15:18]; “Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?” [1 Samuel 15:19]; “And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.” [1 Samuel 15:20]; “But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.” [1 Samuel 15:21]; “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.” [1 Samuel 15:22]

 

But notice carefully these next words, for they have a great deal to do with the texts we are to consider more closely, “For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.” [1 Samuel 15:23]; for it is clear that the “rebellion” of Saul even led him unto utilizing “witchcraft” in the end.

 

Saul even acknowledges his sin before Samuel, saying that he sinned because he feared not God, but the people, “And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.” [1 Samuel 15:24], and since this was so, Saul was rejected as King over Israel by God, “Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.” [1 Samuel 15:25]; “And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.” [1 Samuel 15:26]. However Saul, like a little child, unwilling to accept the judgment, still rebelled, and tried to keep Samuel from leaving, and even tore the mantle of Samuel, “And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.” [1 Samuel 15:27], thus the Kingdom was rent from Saul that very day, “And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, [that is] better than thou.” [1 Samuel 15:28], though he would yet remain until his death. Samuel had to then carry out the Word of the Lord, which Saul refused to do, “And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.” [1 Samuel 15:33], and so we come to a very important text, which reveals that Samuel the prophet left Saul permanently, and came no more unto him at all and mourned for him, “And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.” [1 Samuel 15:33].

 

After this, wherein Saul rejected the counsel of God, and of the prophet and would no longer humble himself, and heed the Word of the Lord, another was to reign in his stead, even King David, since Saul had grieved away the Holy Spirit of God, and from that day forward, “an evil spirit” came continually and “troubled him”, and this is important to notice, as we come to the “familiar spirit” that later addresses him by the witch of Endor:

 

And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.” [1 Samuel 16:1]; “Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.” [1 Samuel 16:13]; “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” [1 Samuel 16:14]; “And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.” [1 Samuel 16:15]

 

From this point forward, Saul becomes worse in thought and deed, becoming increasingly jealous, and filled with a conspiratorial mind [1 Samuel 22:8] and plotting secretly and openly to murder the innocent King David by various means, even using his own daughter “Michal” in a plot, and also prophesying by “the evil spirit”:

 

And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed [but] thousands: and [what] can he have more but the kingdom?” [1 Samuel 18:8]; “And Saul eyed David from that day and forward.” [1 Samuel 18:9]; “And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand.” [1 Samuel 18:10]; “And Saul cast the javelin; for he said, I will smite David even to the wall [with it]. And David avoided out of his presence twice.” [1 Samuel 18:11]; “And Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, and was departed from Saul.” [1 Samuel 18:12]; “And Saul said to David, Behold my elder daughter Merab, her will I give thee to wife: only be thou valiant for me, and fight the LORD'S battles. For Saul said, Let not mine hand be upon him, but let the hand of the Philistines be upon him.” [1 Samuel 18:17]; “And Michal Saul's daughter loved David: and they told Saul, and the thing pleased him.” [1 Samuel 18:20]; “And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in [the one of] the twain.” [1 Samuel 18:21]; “And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies. But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines.” [1 Samuel 18:25]; “And Saul was yet the more afraid of David; and Saul became David's enemy continually.” [1 Samuel 18:29]

 

Saul continually attempted to murder King David, and even to involve his son Jonathan:

 

And Saul spake to Jonathan his son, and to all his servants, that they should kill David.” [1 Samuel 19:1]; “But Jonathan Saul's son delighted much in David: and Jonathan told David, saying, Saul my father seeketh to kill thee: now therefore, I pray thee, take heed to thyself until the morning, and abide in a secret [place], and hide thyself:” [1 Samuel 19:2]; “And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with [his] hand.” [1 Samuel 19:9]; “And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin; but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped that night.” [1 Samuel 19:10]; “Saul also sent messengers unto David's house, to watch him, and to slay him in the morning: and Michal David's wife told him, saying, If thou save not thy life to night, to morrow thou shalt be slain.” [1 Samuel 19:11]; “And Saul sent the messengers [again] to see David, saying, Bring him up to me in the bed, that I may slay him.” [1 Samuel 19:15]

 

However, Jonathan would not take part, and helped David to flee to Ramah, where the prophet Samuel was, and for this Saul became furious at Jonathan with abusive language and acts, seeking not the will of God to have another reign instead of the line of Saul, but he instead still sought to keep the throne and the line through Jonathan:

 

And David fled from Naioth in Ramah, and came and said before Jonathan, What have I done? what [is] mine iniquity? and what [is] my sin before thy father, that he seeketh my life?” [1 Samuel 20:1]; “Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious [woman], do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?” [1 Samuel 20:30]; “For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.” [1 Samuel 20:31]; “And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him: whereby Jonathan knew that it was determined of his father to slay David.” [1 Samuel 20:33]

 

King Saul even ordered the slaying of 85 of the priests of the LORD God which had helped King David in innocence, and also a whole city of Nob was attacked, killing men, women and children and babes and livestock:

 

And the king said, Thou shalt surely die, Ahimelech, thou, and all thy father's house.” [1 Samuel 22:16]; “And the king said unto the footmen that stood about him, Turn, and slay the priests of the LORD; because their hand also [is] with David, and because they knew when he fled, and did not shew it to me. But the servants of the king would not put forth their hand to fall upon the priests of the LORD.” [1 Samuel 22:17]; “And the king said to Doeg, Turn thou, and fall upon the priests. And Doeg the Edomite turned, and he fell upon the priests, and slew on that day fourscore and five persons that did wear a linen ephod.” [1 Samuel 22:18]; “And Nob, the city of the priests, smote he with the edge of the sword, both men and women, children and sucklings, and oxen, and asses, and sheep, with the edge of the sword.” [1 Samuel 22:19]; “And Abiathar shewed David that Saul had slain the LORD'S priests.” [1 Samuel 22:21]

 

Saul, even after all of this evil, still thought that He was in favor with God, even claiming that God was delivering King David into his hand, and thus we see a fulfillment of a principle, “the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.” [John 16:2], and thus we shall see this again at the last days, even soon to come, for those religionists which think they honor God in the “first [day] of the week” [sunday], but are in transgression of the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, even the 4th Commandment speaking of the 7th Day the Sabbath of the Lord thy God [Exodus 20:8-11], even deceived [Revelation 13:14], because they will have chosen such in opposition to God's Law [Psalms 119:126] and refused the counsel of God [Hosea 4:6] against themselves [Luke 7:30], refusing to leave Babylon the Great, that Mother of Harlots, of which God said, “Come out of her my people” [Revelation 18:4] will seek to eliminate [Revelation 13:12,15,16, 20:4] those which “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” [Revelation 14:12], even “hav[ing] the testimony of Jesus Christ” [Revelation 12:17]:

 

And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars.” [1 Samuel 23:7]

 

And so Saul, called even for “war” against King David, “And Saul called all the people together to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men.” [1 Samuel 23:8], and continually “secretly practised mischief against” [1 Samuel 23:9] King David, seeking “him every day” [1 Samuel 23:14] having “come out to seek his life” [1 Samuel 23:15], and “took three thousand men out of all Israel, and when to seek David and his men” [1 Samuel 24:2] pursuing David, and “huntest” the “soul” [living person] of David “to take it” [1 Samuel 24:11], for as it is written, “Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:...” [1 Samuel 24:13]. Whereas David sought not to harm Saul, “mine hand shall not be upon thee” [1 Samuel 24:12,13] Saul on the other hand, “have rewarded thee evil” [1 Samuel 24:17] of David. The LORD would both “judge” and “avenge” [1 Samuel 24:12].

 

Saul blamed everyone but himself for his choices,

 

“That all of you have conspired against me, and [there is] none that sheweth me that my son hath made a league with the son of Jesse, and [there is] none of you that is sorry for me, or sheweth unto me that my son hath stirred up my servant against me, to lie in wait, as at this day?” [1 Samuel 22:8]

 

Saul even after all these, and long before going to the witch of Endor, comes to acknowledge that David would be King,

 

“And now, behold, I know well that thou shalt surely be king, and that the kingdom of Israel shall be established in thine hand.” [1 Samuel 24:20]; “Swear now therefore unto me by the LORD, that thou wilt not cut off my seed after me, and that thou wilt not destroy my name out of my father's house.” [1 Samuel 24:21]; “And David sware unto Saul. And Saul went home; but David and his men gat them up unto the hold.” [1 Samuel 24:22]

 

Samuel the Prophet, afterward, then dies and the peoples buried him in Ramah,

 

“And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah. And David arose, and went down to the wilderness of Paran.” [1 Samuel 25:1]

 

Others of the land already recognize, long before the witch of Endor and her “familiar spirit”, that David is to be made King in Saul's stead:

 

I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the LORD, and evil hath not been found in thee [all] thy days.” [1 Samuel 25:28]; “Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, [as out] of the middle of a sling.” [1 Samuel 25:29]; “And it shall come to pass, when the LORD shall have done to my lord according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall have appointed thee ruler over Israel;” [1 Samuel 25:30]

 

Saul still sought to hurt David and takes his own daughter, Michal, David's wife and gives her to another in David's absence in the wilderness, “But Saul had given Michal his daughter, David's wife, to Phalti the son of Laish, which [was] of Gallim.” [1 Samuel 25:44], and David speaks in the wilderness, even a foretelling, “David said furthermore, [As] the LORD liveth, the LORD shall smite him; or his day shall come to die; or he shall descend into battle, and perish.” [1 Samuel 26:10]; and Saul, though as many times like Pharoah turns back, does not out of true repentance, but still his own words condemn him, “...I have sinned ... I have played the fool, and have erred exceedingly.” [1 Samuel 26:21]

 

Then came the Philistines and attacked Israel, and we come to the very texts we are to consider in regards to Samuel the Prophet, “And it came to pass in those days, that the Philistines gathered their armies together for warfare, to fight with Israel. And Achish said unto David, Know thou assuredly, that thou shalt go out with me to battle, thou and thy men.” [1 Samuel 28:1]

 

 

Let us see what we shall gain from these texts:

 

[1] Samuel had earlier commanded Saul, when he would then listen and obey the LORD, to remove all the wicked which practiced the occult from the land, “Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.” [1 Samuel 28:3], which was good to do [2 Kings 23:4] for all these which do these things are an “abomination” unto the LORD, and He would never use these methods to communicate to Saul. Any which used these practices were wicked [2 Chronicles 33:6; 2 Kings 21:6] with false counsel [Isaiah 19:3], for when God speaks to men, he uses Prophets [Amos 3:7], “And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, [I] the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream.” [Number 12:6], [good] Angels, or visions, priests of the Lord and even directly as with Moses [Numbers 12:7] and others, but never “sorcery” or “necromancy”. God is clear, Saul did not do righteously, but wickedly, and it was required of him:

 

Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I [am] the LORD your God.” [Leviticus 19:31]

 

And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.” [Leviticus 20:6]

 

Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I [am] the LORD your God.” [Leviticus 20:7] [“But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;” [1 Peter 1:16] and “Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” [1 Peter 1:16]]

 

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD [am] holy, and have severed you from [other] people, that ye should be mine.” [Leviticus 20:26]

 

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them.” [Leviticus 20:27]

 

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?” [Isaiah 8:19]

 

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.” [Isaiah 8:20]

 

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.” [Deuteronomy 18:9]

 

There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,” [Deuteronomy 18:10]

 

Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.” [Deuteronomy 18:11]

 

For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.” [Deuteronomy 18:12]

 

Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.” [Deuteronomy 18:13]

 

For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so [to do].” [Deuteronomy 18:14]

 

The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;” [Deuteronomy 18:15]

 

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” [Deuteronomy 18:18]

 

And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.” [Deuteronomy 18:19]

 

Saul, instead of eliminating the witch of Endor, spares her life, even swearing by the LORD, in contradiction to His commandments, “And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.” [1 Samuel 28:10], for she knew well that to practice her sorcery was a death sentence, even by the King's previous decrees and of God, “And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?” [1 Samuel 28:9], so much so, that Saul also knew that such a decree would slay even himself, and so came to the witch by night and in disguise and in deception [1 Samuel 28:12], “And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee.” [1 Samuel 28:8]. She even cries aloud at finding out that she had been tricked and came to know it was King Saul who stood before her asking her to do this thing, for she feared for her life [1 Samuel 28:12].

 

This is not the way of God, which is done openly and in the daylight, “I spake openly to the world … in secret have I said nothing.” [John 18:20], “For I [am] the LORD, I change not...” [Malachi 3:6]

 

God never reveals the future through the methods of channelers, but through His chosen prophets and His Word, “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” [Amos 3:7], which is why it must be “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.” [Isaiah 8:20], “for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” [Revelation 19:10]

 

 

[2] Saul refused to obey the Lord, by the prophet Samuel, and would not listen when the chances were given [1 Samuel 13:8-14, 15:1-33, etc]:

 

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;” [Proverbs 1:24]; “But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:” [Proverbs 1:25]; “I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;” [Proverbs 1:26]; “When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.” [Proverbs 1:27]; “Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:” [Proverbs 1:28]; “For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:” [Proverbs 1:29]; “They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.” [Proverbs 1:30]; “Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.” [Proverbs 1:31]; “For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.” [Proverbs 1:32]


 

[3] Saul had long ago grieved away the Holy Spirit, “the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul” [1 Samuel 16:14] and “an evil spirit” [1 Samuel 16:14,15,16,23, 18:10, 19:9] was continually leading him to sin against God, and so also leading others into sin [1 Samuel 14:24-32, 22:16-24, etc]. Saul would no longer heed the Holy Spirit [Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10; Ephesians 4:30].


 

[4] The LORD would no longer answer Saul when he enquired by any approved method of God for Saul would not listen, “Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets” [1 Samuel 28:6] and Saul fully acknowledges this, “God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams” [1 Samuel 28:15]. Notice, the LORD would not answer “by prophets”. Samuel was a prophet, even a seer [1 Samuel 9:9,10].

 

[5] When Saul recognized that the LORD would no longer answer him when he enquired of HIM, he yet even still in rebellion to the Word of God, went to enquire of a woman with a “familiar spirit” which is forbidden of God, even “abomination”, “Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.” [1 Samuel 28:7]; as it is written, “For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.” [1 Samuel 15:23]

 

The word used for “familiar spirit” [Leviticus 19:31, 20:6,27; Deuteronomy 18:11; 1 Samuel 28:3,7,8,9; 2 Kings 21:6, 23:24; 1 Chronicles 10:13; 2 Chronicles 33:6; Isaiah 8:9, 19:3, 29:4; see also Job 32:19, “bottles”] is “האבות”; “H'aBVTh”, and it means “water skin bottle [that which is filled], necromancer, one which has a familiar spirit, a soothsayer, one who divines and possessed by the python [serpent] spirit, a medium or channeler of a false and lying spirit”.

 

[6] Futhermore, we know it was not actually Samuel the Prophet, but a false spirit, a “familiar spirit”, even that “evil spirit”, a wicked fallen angel which mimicked the likeness of Samuel, giving a hopeless message of despair by a witch unto the King, even as it is in this our day, “For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth...” [Revelation 16:14]. Saul was not seeking God, but rather he sought a witch, even “...a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.” [1 Samuel 28:7], and asked of her “...I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit...” [1 Samuel 28:8]. This was forbidden of God as already shown, and this sin was to cost him everything, and as scripture records, “So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, [even] against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking [counsel] of [one that had] a familiar spirit, to enquire [of it];” [1 Chronicles 10:13]; “And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.” [1 Chronicles 10:14]. Notice, that scripture further declares that this “familiar spirit” was not actually Samuel at all.

 

[7] To be sure, we may know of a surety that the Prophet Samuel long before any of these events, “died” [1 Samuel 25:1], and was so dead, without life. He was not in Heaven, not some immortal ethereal essence floating around somewhere, but rather he himself as it is written was “buried...in his house in Ramah” [1 Samuel 25:1]. For scripture is clear, “the grave [is] mine house” [Job 17:13], being “asleep” even “my bed in the darkness” [Job 17:13], saying “to corruption, Thou [art] my father: to the worm, [Thou art] my mother, and my sister” [Job 17:14], he in death, would “go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust” [Job 17:16]. This is not something new or obscure in the word of God, for it is everywhere written, “thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust” [Psalms 104:29]; “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” [Ecclesiastes 12:7]; “till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.” [Genesis 3:19], “[As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more].” [Job 7:9]; “He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.” [Job 7:10], etc. How long? “But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?” [Job 14:10]; “[As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:” [Job 14:11]; “So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.” [Job 14:12]; “O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!” [Job 14:13]; “If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.” [Job 14:14]; “Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.” [Job 14:15], and the NT speaks the same, even in the mouths of Jesus [John 11, etc], the prophets, Apostles [1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, Revelation, etc].

 

The word used for “died” [1 Samuel 25:1] is “וימת”; “VYMTh”, and it means “to die, perished, put to death, without [the breath of] life, slain”.

 

[8] The “woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor” [1 Samuel 28:7], could no more call the true prophet Samuel back from the dead, “Whom shall I bring up unto thee?” [1 Samuel 28:11], than could all the forces of satan together. For one they have no power to resurrect anyone from the dead and they have no power to command any persons of the Lord, let alone a true prophet of God [2 Kings 1:9-15], like Samuel was even in life, let alone when one is dead and buried, hidden and kept secret with the Lord [Job 14:13]. It is those faithful of the LORD which have “power over unclean spirits” [Mark 6:7] and “power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy” [Luke 10:19], and not the other way 'round. Notice that this was a summoning séance, and not even a resurrection. Every single resurrection in the scripture is in direct contrast to this event! [we shall come to these a bit later, but the contrast should be obvious to any] In resurrections, there is “flesh and bones” [Luke 24:39], not some ethereal gaseous non-entity, for they which die in the Lord, are to live again, even as Jesus is alive forever more, and as the angels of Heaven [Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:36], which are tangible, not intangible, of substance and having heavenly bodies [1 Corinthians 15], not ethereal incorporeality.

 

[9] It is clearly written that Samuel came no more unto Saul at all, not even until the day of Saul's death which came after the séance, “And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.” [1 Samuel 15:33], therefore, since this “familiar spirit” came unto Saul, at his request, we know it was not actually the prophet Samuel, otherwise scripture would be in direct contraction to itself, and this is impossible [John 10:35].

 

[10] Saul never actually sees this supposed “Samuel”, which was shown unto the “woman that hath a familiar spirit”, but instead asked her what she saw, and it was she which was under the deception of the “familiar spirit”, who showed unto her a lying image, a “form” and by her description, he comes to believe it to be “Samuel”, but it is not, “And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou [art] Saul.” [1 Samuel 28:12]; “And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.” [1 Samuel 28:13]; “And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.” [1 Samuel 28:14]. Satan can mimick the dead or those living, even almost perfectly, even as he will even personate Christ Jesus soon enough, and so devils mimick to bring confusion and death, “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” [2 Corinthians 11:14]. Notice that she “saw gods [elohim] ascending out of the earth”, God speaks elsewhere of this same [Isaiah 29:4]. For those which believe that an 'immortal spirit essence of oneself' “returns unto God” at death, rather than “the breath of life” which is given of God until such time as he takes it back unto Himself, will have a strange conundrum, since God dwells in Heaven, not in the dust of the earth.

 

[11] Some have said that the 'prophecy' [1 Samuel 28:16-19] of the “Samuel” [“familiar spirit”] came true and is therefore evidence of it being actually the true Samuel, but this is a misunderstanding of what is said of any prophecy, for God had already given in His Word about such, that all are to be tested, “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” [1 Thessalonians 5:21]. That if a sign or wonder come to pass as prophesied from one which gave it, but that one prophesying lead unto false ways and caused to not heed the commandments of God, then they are false and shall be put to death:

 

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,” [Deuteronomy 13:1]; “And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;” [Deuteronomy 13:2]; “Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.” [Deuteronomy 13:3]; “Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.” [Deuteronomy 13:4]; “And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.” [Deuteronomy 13:5]

 

However, even in this case with Saul, and the “familiar spirit”, that which was given, was pretty much already known beforehand, and the “familiar spirit” is merely giving again that which had already been before declared by God previously. King Saul already grieved away the Holy Spirit, he was scared of the multitudes of the Philistines [1 Samuel 28:5], he had already lost the kingdom to David, he would not listen to the true Prophet Samuel when he was alive, killed the priests of God, etc. That the “familiar spirit” concluded that Saul and his sons would be captured was hardly even a 'prophecy', but simply a logical outcome of the choices and events already made. Saul by listening to this “familiar spirit”, believing it over and above any power of God to deliver, the next day because of it, “was sore afraid” [1 Samuel 28:20] and “sore troubled” [1 Samuel 28:21], and when about to be captured, commits suicide [1 Samuel 31:4; 2 Samuel 1:4; 1 Chronicles 10:4]. Go back and re-read all the events that led up this event in Saul's life.

 

[12] We know that this “familiar spirit” is not the true Samuel, for it speaks a twisted truth unto King Saul saying, “...and to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me” [1 Samuel 28:19]. Though King Saul would return to dust, even as Samuel was, King Saul would never again be with Samuel who will be raised from the dust in the First Great Resurrection to come, and Jonathan also unto immortality, while Saul will be raised from the dust a thousand years afterwards in the Second Great Resurrection unto the 2nd death from which there would be no resurrection. King Saul was wicked and grieved away the Holy Spirit, but Samuel was righteous and died in the Lord. Samuel was dead and buried in Ramah, Saul committed suicide and his head taken, and his body, eventually to be burned, himself become ashes, buried afterward [2 Samuel 2:5] in Jabesh [see also 1 Chronicles 10], therefore Saul was no longer living anywhere but, “Saul is dead” [2 Samuel 2:7], and without any life, dying outside of the Lord and therefore “shall not see life” [John 3:36]:

 

And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish [it in] the house of their idols, and among the people.” [1 Samuel 31:9]; “And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan.” [1 Samuel 31:10]; “And when the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead heard of that which the Philistines had done to Saul;” [1 Samuel 31:11]; “All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there.” [1 Samuel 31:12]; “And they took their bones, and buried [them] under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days.” [1 Samuel 31:13]

 

Additionally, a “son of Saul”, “Ishbosheth” [2 Samuel 2:8] did not die the next day, as the “familiar spirit” said, “to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me”, but reigned over Israel [2 Samuel 2:10], and was not killed until later [2 Samuel 4:6-8,12].

 

Well, I hope that all those which love to study the scriptures indepth, instead of simple text isolations, may perhaps reconsider utilizing these events to teach as the Roman Catholic Church teaches about the state of the dead.



#59 DaveW

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 08:20 PM

The claim is not that Samuel was or wasn't sleeping - it is that soul sleep is a false doctrine.

Your many words and long winded posts are not in depth, they are deliberately overcomplicated padded out with the intent that you may be able to deceive some into believing your twisted definitions.

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 09:34 PM

[Ukulelemike; additional text, not in original reply] ...Remeber, as well, that Jesus told the thief on the cross, "I tell thee, TODAY, thou shalt be with me in Paradise." And please, don't try the thin idea of moving the comma to make it say, I tell thee today, thou shalt be with me in Paradise." That's poor English-and why would Jesus have to specify that He was telling the thief "today", because obviously he was telling him that day. Would this be as opposed to "I tell you tomorrow, thou shalt be with me in paradise". No, He told the thief that they woule be in paradise TODAY-that very day.  The same paradise that the Lazarus was in.

 

 

The Claim:  "The thief on the cross didn’t sleep but went immediately to Heaven upon death (Luke 23:43)"

 

Here are the texts and immediate local context of Luke 23:32-33,39-46; John 20:1-31.

 

LUKE 23:32-33,39-56

 

And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. Luke 23:32

 

And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Luke 23:33

 

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. Luke 23:39

 

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? Luke 23:40

 

And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luke 23:41

 

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:42

 

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43 [KJV]

 

και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω Luke 23:43 [Greek]

 

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. Luke 23:44

 

And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. Luke 23:45

 

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46

 

Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man. Luke 23:47

 

And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. Luke 23:48

 

And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things. Luke 23:49

 

And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor; [and he was] a good man, and a just: Luke 23:50

 

(The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) [he was] of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. Luke 23:51

 

This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Luke 23:52

 

And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. Luke 23:53

 

And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. Luke 23:54

 

And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. Luke 23:55

 

And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Luke 23:56

 

 

MATTHEW 27:38-66

 

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. Matthew 27:38

 

And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, Matthew 27:39

 

And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Matthew 27:40

 

Likewise also the chief priests mocking [him], with the scribes and elders, said, Matthew 27:41

 

He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. Matthew 27:42

 

He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. Matthew 27:43

 

The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Matthew 27:44

 

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. Matthew 27:45

 

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46

 

Some of them that stood there, when they heard [that], said, This [man] calleth for Elias. Matthew 27:47

 

And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled [it] with vinegar, and put [it] on a reed, and gave him to drink. Matthew 27:48

 

The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Matthew 27:49

 

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. Matthew 27:50

 

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Matthew 27:51

 

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Matthew 27:52

 

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matthew 27:53

 

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Matthew 27:54

 

And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: Matthew 27:55

 

Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children. Matthew 27:56

 

When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: Matthew 27:57

 

He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. Matthew 27:58

 

And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, Matthew 27:59

 

And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. Matthew 27:60

 

And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre. Matthew 27:61

 

Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Matthew 27:62

 

Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

 

Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. Matthew 27:64

 

Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make [it] as sure as ye can. Matthew 27:65

 

So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch. Matthew 27:66

 

 

JOHN 20:1-31

 

The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. John 20:1

 

Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. John 20:2

 

Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. John 20:3

 

So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. John 20:4

 

And he stooping down, [and looking in], saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. John 20:5

 

Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, John 20:6

 

And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. John 20:7

 

Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. John 20:8

 

For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. John 20:9

 

Then the disciples went away again unto their own home. John 20:10

 

But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, [and looked] into the sepulchre, John 20:11

 

And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. John 20:12

 

And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. John 20:13

 

And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. John 20:14

 

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. John 20:15

 

Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. John 20:16

 

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. John 20:17

 

Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and [that] he had spoken these things unto her. John 20:18

 

Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. John 20:19

 

And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. John 20:20

 

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. John 20:21

 

And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: John 20:22

 

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. John 20:23

 

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. John 20:24

 

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. John 20:25

 

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. John 20:26

 

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27

 

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

 

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. John 20:29

 

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: John 20:30

 

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

 

 

Here are the texts and immediate local context of Luke 23:32-56; Matthew 27:38-66; Mark 15:15-47; John 20:1-31.

 

[1] The Greek, The English and the placement of a single punctuation, a “comma”: The King James, as other translations, basically share this format in the English, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJV], and because of where the comma is placed [which normally would not mean so much if misplaced however] in this sentence in the English, it alters an entire doctrine which is taught from Genesis to Revelation, that being that the “dead” are “them which are asleep” [1 Thessalonians 4:13,15] and do not immediately upon death enter “Paradise”, for they must first be resurrected [Matthew 22:30; Luke 20:35, etc].

The Greek Textus Receptus Stephens 1550 has no such comma or punctuation, as seen here

 

και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω” Luke 23:43 [Greek]

 

The comma should actually be after the word “To day” and not before it, like so, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” How are we to know, just guess, just let it be where I decide it should be, or to make it fit what I believe, or rather should it be placed in a position where it is in perfect unison with all of the rest of the scriptures on this particular doctrine? The latter should be our answer, since according to scripture itself, “...the scripture cannot be broken.” [John 10:35]

Additionally, never should any person seek to hang any doctrine upon the case of a punctuation mark, for scripture is always to be understood in such a manner:

 

For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:” [Isaiah 28:10]

 

 

[2] The context of the other Gospel of John reveals that Jesus did not “ascend” to “Paradise” the day of His death at all, for it is written:

 

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.” John 20:17

 

This text in context just eliminated any possibility for the comma to be placed before the word “To day”. What Jesus was saying to the thief upon the cross, is that though Jesus did not look like a King with a Kingdom, He indeed was, and that if only the thief would believe His words “thou shalt be with me in Paradise”, he would be resurrected in the First Great Resurrection “at the last day” [John 6:39,40,44,54, 11:24], even “at that day” [2 Timothy 4:8].

 

Jesus, in opposition to what looked like circumstances unto an eternal end, yet He says to the thief, “Verily, verily I say unto thee to day...”, as in right now, this moment, 'I speak to you the truth'. It is like unto what we find here, “For he [is] our God; and we [are] the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,” [Psalms 95:7; see also Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7], for Jesus is saying, 'Believe my words to day...' and 'have faith in my word this moment' and 'trust me now', even as it is written,

 

 “(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)” [2 Corinthians 6:2]

 

 

[3] Another point to consider, is that Luke is the only one which records these words “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee* To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJV], and therefore, before any conclude to utilize this text in favor of the erroneous “immortal soul/spirit” theology, ought to consider more context on the whole.

Especially since Luke says,

 

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,” [Luke 1:1];

Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;” [Luke 1:2];

It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,” [Luke 1:3];

That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.” [Luke 1:4]

 

Therefore let us be circumspect and very careful, not to fall into the trap of those which “wrest” [2 Peter 3:16] the scriptures, or as those which “corrupt the Word of God” [2 Corinthians 2:17] as do others. It would be quite dangerous to simply take a single text and claim it proves any doctrine, for a board with one nail in it, will spin all around, but a board with several nails through will be stable. Therefore, we need to consider this texts with the context which surrounds it and those events, otherwise we would be as satan which only quotes certain portions of any text or context [Matthew 4:6].

 

 

[4] According to the various man-made traditions and creeds of Roman Catholicism and others [usually 'Orthodoxy'], Christ Jesus did not go to “Paradise” that day either, but rather they say that he [Christ, in a Platonic Dualism] “descended into hell” [which is completely unscriptural, but that is for another time and topic] and it was not until the “third day” [Matthew 12:40 He said, “three days and three nights”, but on Two occasions, Matthew 27:63; Mark 8:31 He said, “after three days.” and He referred to the same event 5 times in Matthew 26:61, 27:40; Mark 15:29; John 2:19-20 as “in three days”, and on Twelve occasions it is said, “the third day.” Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:19; Mark 9:31, 10:34; Luke 9:22, 13:32, 18:33, 24:7,46; Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:4.] that he arose, and finally “ascended” into heaven.

 

This creates a serious theological conundrum and contradiction for any which believe this, if they also think that Luke 23:43 says Christ Jesus entered “Paradise” that same day he died. Others attempt to redefine “Paradise” into a type of 'limbo', but even in this, it still contradicts.

We may see this from several Roman Catholic sources, such as:

Thomas Aquinas “Summa Theologica”, Third Part, Question 52; Article 4, Reply To Objection 1 [and throughout, having both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur]:

 

Reply to Objection 1. When Christ descended into hell He delivered the saints who were there, not by leading them out at once from the confines of hell, but by enlightening them with the light of glory in hell itself. Nevertheless it was fitting that His soul should abide in hell as long as His body remained in the tomb.” - http://www.newadvent...52.htm#article4

 

or we may see it from the “Creed of Aquiliea”":

 

Descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis (He descended to hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead); Ascendit in cœlos; sedet ad dexteram Patris; (He ascended to the heavens; he sits at the right hand of the Father)”- http://www.newadvent...athers/2711.htm

 

or considering the “Apostles Creed”, it clearly states that Jesus was not “caught up to Heaven” until after the “third day”; “T” Apostles Creed :

 

...(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; (6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; ...” - http://www.newadvent...then/01629a.htm

 

or considering the “Nicene Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus that he:

 

...suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven...” - http://www.newadvent...then/11049a.htm

 

or considering the “Athanasian Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus:


...Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven...” - http://www.newadvent...then/02033b.htm

 

 

[5]Paradise” is actually the “Garden of God” in “the city” “of God”, wherein is “the Throne of God” in the “third Heaven”, where God the Father rules, from where Jesus came from and from which Lucifer was cast out of, by scripture:

 

Luke 23:43 Greek και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12:1

2 Corinthians 12:2 Greek οιδα ανθρωπον εν χριστω προ ετων δεκατεσσαρων ειτε εν σωματι ουκ οιδα ειτε εκτος του σωματος ουκ οιδα ο θεος οιδεν αρπαγεντα τον τοιουτον εως τριτου ουρανου

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 2 Corinthians 12:3

2 Corinthians 12:4 Greek  οτι ηρπαγη εις τον παραδεισον και ηκουσεν αρρητα ρηματα α ουκ εξον ανθρωπω λαλησαι

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

Revelation 2:7 Greek  ο εχων ους ακουσατω τι το πνευμα λεγει ταις εκκλησιαις τω νικωντι δωσω αυτω φαγειν εκ του ξυλου της ζωης ο εστιν εν μεσω του παραδεισου του θεου

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:2

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

Ezekiel 28:13 LXX  ἐν τῇ τρυφῇ τοῦ παραδείσου τοῦ θεοῦ ἐγενήθης· πᾶν λίθον χρηστὸν ἐνδέδεσαι, σάρδιον καὶ τοπάζιον καὶ σμάραγδον καὶ ἄνθρακα καὶ σάπφειρον καὶ ἴασπιν καὶ ἀργύριον καὶ χρυσίον καὶ λιγύριον καὶ ἀχάτην καὶ ἀμέθυστον καὶ χρυσόλιθον καὶ βηρύλλιον καὶ ὀνύχιον, καὶ χρυσίου ἐνέπλησας τοὺς θησαυρούς σου καὶ τὰς ἀποθήκας σου ἐν σοὶ ἀφ᾿ ἧς ἡμέρας ἐκτίσθης σύ.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13

Ezekiel 31:9 LXX  διὰ τὸ πλῆθος τῶν κλάδων αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐζήλωσεν αὐτὸν τὰ ξύλα τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς τοῦ θεοῦ.

I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. Ezekiel 31:9

Isaiah 51:3 LXX  καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω, Σιων, καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον κυρίου· εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ, ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως.

For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. Isaiah 51:3

 

Jesus did not enter into “Paradise” until after He was resurrected and arose from death “the third day” according to the scriptures, this being His first ascension back into Heaven, the other at the Mount of Olives [Acts 1:9; Revelation 12:5], after 40 days [Acts 1:3], 10 days before Pentecost, the 50th Day [Leviticus 23:16] in exact fulfillment of the Biblical Types and Prophecy given in the OT [unto Moses and Aaron].

 

 

[6] Jesus was dead and in the Tomb, resting in the sleep of death upon the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, for even in death He is perfect, for he not going anywhere, as it is written, “...he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.” [Job 21:32], until after His resurrection, for He must of necessity fulfill the scriptures:

 

Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matthew 28:6

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:17

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:8

 

 

 

[7] Christ Jesus did not lead “captivity captive” [the “firstfruits” 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, the “wavesheaf” Leviticus 23:10-12; see Matthew 27:52-53] until His own Resurrection, “the third day” [Luke 24:21],

 

“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” Ephesians 4:8 [Special Resurrection at Jesus own Resurrection, see also Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53]

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

 

The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of Jesus from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of God” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

 

Notice, not individually as any die, but all “together” being alive and others with them made alive in a resurrection [Biblical exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, special group of “saints” around Jerusalem at Jesus own resurrection, each playing a specific part in typology, there are no other Biblical exceptions].

 

The same word can be viewed in many other passages:

 

[Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].

 

There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:

 

“to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

“to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

“to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

“to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

“to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

“make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

“come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

“to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].

 

Therefore, since Jesus is fulfilling the types in their order, Jesus was not to be the Firstfruits until His resurrection from the dead in/on the 16th Of Nisan/Aviv {the "first [day] of the week", which was "...the Third day since these things were done" Luke 24:21}, which is two days later from the Passover, the 14th of Nisan/Aviv, as it is given in Scripture:

 

THE CHOOSING OF THE SPOTLESS LAMB [Exodus 12:3] 1st Month (Pre-Babylonian-Abib/Aviv, Post Babylonian-Nisan) 10th Day after the New Moon. Choose the spotless Lamb as designated by God, a Lamb for every man, for every house (to be held for 3 1/2 days). Jesus begins ministry (John 1:29,36) at age 30 (Luke 3:23), according to type (Numbers 4:3,23,30,35,39,40,43,47), and preaches 3 ½ years according to Scripture and Prophecy of Daniel (Daniel 9:27).

PASSOVER FEAST [Leviticus 23:5] 1st Month (Pre-Babylonian-Abib/Aviv, Post Babylonian-Nisan) 14th Day after the New Moon at Even. Spotless Lamb slain (after being held 3 1/2 days), roasted by fire, eaten with bitter herbs, in a state of readiness to depart, with no bone of the Lamb being broken, its shed blood applied to the doorposts and lintel [Exodus 12:7-8]. [Jesus dies AD 31; Nisan 14th]

UNLEAVENED BREAD FEAST [Leviticus 23:6-8] 1st Month (Pre-Babylonian-Abib/Aviv, Post Babylonian-Nisan) 15th Day after the New Moon - until the 21st Day of the same Month (7 days). On the 1st Day (15th) a holy convocation and no servile work (seasonal feast sabbath) [Jesus in the Tomb; Nisan 15th], unleavened is eaten for 7 days (all leaven removed from the 1st Day). A holy convocation and no servile work on the 7th Day, being the 21st Day of the same Month (seasonal feast sabbath).

FIRSTFRUITS OF HARVEST, WAVE SHEAF [Leviticus 23:10-14] 1st Month (Pre-Babylonian-Abib/Aviv, Post Babylonian-Nisan) 16th Day after the New Moon [Jesus resurrected; Nisan 16th]. A Wave Sheaf of the Firstfruits of the Harvest on the morrow after the Sabbath. This day not being a Sabbath. A spotless he-lamb burnt offering the same day as the wave sheaf. "Meat" (bread) offering - two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD [for] a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof [shall be] of wine, the fourth [part] of an hin. Begin to count 7, 7th Day Sabbaths, plus one more Day unto Pentecost (7x7=49+1=50).

The Calender:

(First Month of the Year, Abib/Aviv) (Exodus 12:2; Deuteronomy 16:1) and later became changed to Nisan (after Babylonian Captivity, Esther 3:7; Ezra 6:19)

NEW MOON 1 MONTH DAY 1 - (A Solemn Feast Day according to Psalms 81:3; Numbers 10:10 (CYCLE DAY 7; 7th DAY SABBATH Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11)),

1 MONTH DAY 2, (CYCLE DAY 1)
1 MONTH DAY 3, (CYCLE DAY 2)
1 MONTH DAY 4, (CYCLE DAY 3)
1 MONTH DAY 5, (CYCLE DAY 4)
1 MONTH DAY 6, (CYCLE DAY 5)
1 MONTH DAY 7, (CYCLE DAY 6)

1 MONTH DAY 8, (CYCLE DAY 7; 7th DAY SABBATH Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-11)

1 MONTH DAY 9, (CYCLE DAY 1)

1 MONTH DAY 10, (typological Getting Lamb for Passover; Exodus 12:3 (CYCLE DAY 2) Reality CHRIST is the LAMB of GOD; John 1:29,36; Jesus begins ministry for 3 ½ years; Daniel 9:27; [and ended on the time so specified] Luke 13:32-33, etc)

1 MONTH DAY 11, (CYCLE DAY 3)
1 MONTH DAY 12, (CYCLE DAY 4)
1 MONTH DAY 13, (CYCLE DAY 5)

1 MONTH DAY 14, (typological Passover at Even; Leviticus 23:5; Reality of CHRIST's DEATH - CYCLE DAY 6, 'aka Friday', known as the Preparation day (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31), the True Temple was Destroyed (First day of the Three Prophesied by JESUS; John 2:19, etc) also see the typology of the Manna in Exodus 16:5,22; and see 1 Corinthians 5:7)

1 MONTH DAY 15, (typological First Day of Unleavened Bread, feast sabbath; Exodus 12:16; Leviticus 23:6-7; Reality of CHRIST's BURIAL - CYCLE DAY 7, 'aka Saturday' (Luke 23:56; 7th Day SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD in the 4th COMMANDMENT), the two (seasonal feast sabbath and 7th DAY SABBATH) combined that year of JESUS and was called an "HIGH DAY" John 19:31, JESUS remained in the tomb (being the Second Day of the Three Prophesied by JESUS; John 2:19, etc); also see the typology of the Manna in Exodus 16:23)

1 MONTH DAY 16, (typological Wave Sheaf, First Fruits Offering, NOT A SABBATH; Leviticus 23:10-11; Joshua 5:10-12; Reality of CHRIST's RESURRECTION - CYCLE DAY 1, 'aka Sunday' Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1-2,9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1,19; JESUS free of the Tomb (being the THIRD DAY since these things were done; Luke 24:21; John 2:19, etc), also see the typology of the Manna in Exodus 16:24-25, compare to Acts 13:37; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23...begin counting 7 Sabbaths to PENTECOST Leviticus 23:15); 1st Day)

1 MONTH DAY 17, (CYCLE DAY 2; 2nd Day)
1 MONTH DAY 18, (CYCLE DAY 3; 3rd Day)
1 MONTH DAY 19, (CYCLE DAY 4; 4th Day)
1 MONTH DAY 20, (CYCLE DAY 5; 5th Day)

1 MONTH DAY 21, (End of Feast of Unleavened Bread, feast sabbath; Leviticus 23:8; (CYCLE DAY 6); 6th Day) … etc.

 

14th Aviv/Nisan - Passover, Christ Jesus dies

15th Aviv/Nisan - First day unleavened bread, seasonal sabbath, Christ Jesus without sin buried

16th Aviv/Nisan - Firstfruits/wavesheaf, Christ Jesus resurrected

It can only be this way. This is not only given in this way, but also in the Manna of Exodus 16, in the events of Jonah, &c.

 

I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God. Exodus 16:12

And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host. Exodus 16:13

And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground. Exodus 16:14

And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat. Exodus 16:15

This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents. Exodus 16:16

And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less. Exodus 16:17

And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating. Exodus 16:18

And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning. Exodus 16:19

Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them. Exodus 16:20

And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted. Exodus 16:21

And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. Exodus 16:22

And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. Exodus 16:23

And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. Exodus 16:24

And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Exodus 16:25

Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. Exodus 16:26

And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. Exodus 16:27

And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? Exodus 16:28

See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Exodus 16:29

So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:30

And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey. Exodus 16:31

And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth, Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations; that they may see the bread wherewith I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt. Exodus 16:32

And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the LORD, to be kept for your generations. Exodus 16:33

As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept. Exodus 16:34

And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. Deuteronomy 8:3

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. Psalms 16:9

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Psalms 16:10

That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption. Psalms 49:9

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Acts 2:31

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:34

Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 13:35

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36

But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Acts 13:37

 

Jesus is the Bread?  the Manna?  Yes:

 

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. John 6:63

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:57

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. John 6:27

 

What is this "meat which endureth"? It is the "words" that Jesus speaks to us. That is eternal life. What must we do about His "words", his teachings? We must "believe on Him" [Jesus] whom the Father has sent.

 

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

 

However, many of the crowd simply did not want to believe in/on Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, being God, the I AM [especially as the only way] without some great sign, even though a little earlier they had all just been fed and been full physically from so very little bread and fish. They wanted a way in salvation apart from Jesus, they wanted a way of works, not of faith which works.

They did not want to understand that "He came down from Heaven" and said, "Is not this...the son of Joseph?" They did not want to take Jesus on faith. He is the living Manna.

Jesus pointed out that even those who had been fed from miraculous manna from heaven, all had still died [and are still dead to this day, awaiting their resurrection "at the last day"; John 6:40], but those who believed on Him, the True manna, He says would not permanantly die in the 2nd death, but would sleep in death until their resurrection and would live forever, neither thirst, nor hunger.

 

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. John 6:35

I am that bread of life. John 6:48

This is that breadwhich came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. John 6:58

 

Not as their fathers who ate the flakes, wafers of manna, but truly Christ Jesus is the living “Bread”, the "Way", "Truth" and "Life". We must believe on Him unto salvation, and follow in His steps by His grace, obey His words, practice what He says.

Jesus was speaking of Himself as the Messiah and Saviour, thus speaking Himself as the Messiah, the very Son of God, to believe upon and the example to follow:

 

This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. John 6:50

 

Jesus human "Flesh" and "Blood" did not come down from heaven, but He and His doctrine, His Way have. Notice how Jesus Himself lives, "by the Father" [even as he says, "...I have meat to eat that ye know not of." John 4:32; and what was this "meat"? "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." John 4:32], and so likewise we, also, by Him by heeding His words, following His example and keeping/doing His Commandments [Ten Commandments]:

 

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:57

 

That is eats of HIS WORD...

Jesus makes it abundantly clear that His words are Spirit:

 

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. John 6:63

 

Peter, himself, acknowledges that Jesus has the Words of Life because that He is the Messiah:

 

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. John 6:68

 

Jesus makes known who did not have eternal life and why they did not, it was because they belived not on Him, as the Christ, even though they had seen Him and the works He performed:

 

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. John 6:35

And the entirety of the Chapter of John 6 is summed up in this one verse:


And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69

 

That is the whole point of John 6, declaring Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God, from personal experience and personal acknowledgment, and to follow Him.

John 6 is focusing on who is "the Christ, the Son of the living God" and who "believe[d]" "on Him" and who did not.

It is Belief in Christ Jesus as the "Son of the living God", the Messiah, the Christ, God manifest in the likeness of the human sinful flesh, the sent of the Father, the Saviour, etc that is the focus.

 

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

 

We are to "eat" and "drink" His words, for they are spirit and are life.

 

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 1 Corinthians 10:1

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1 Corinthians 10:2

And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 1 Corinthians 10:3

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4

But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Corinthians 10:5

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? John 6:52

And Moses said, This shall be, when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the LORD. Exodus 16:8

And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? Numbers 11:4

Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat. Numbers 11:13

And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the LORD will give you flesh, and ye shall eat. Numbers 11:18

 

We see that Christ is the True manna, even the Word of God [John 1:1], the Bread that came down from Heaven. Just as the bread was for 6 days and on the 7th it was not to be found in the field [which is a symbol of the world; Matthew 13:38], so too Christ was not found in the world, being buried in the Tomb. Though Christ was dead, and buried, His flesh did not see corruption on the 7th Day, even as the Manna saw no corruption on the 7th Day. On the very next day, being the first [day] of the week, we see Christ Jesus arisen from the dead, and preserved forever, never to see corruption, nor death again, and so too likewise the Manna which was uncorrupted was gathered into the Golden Pot, and placed before the Ark [symbol of the Throne of God], even as Christ Jesus ascended that very morning for the first time to the Father.

 

 

[8] Jesus is specific about how anyone which dies, is to enter into Heaven, “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.” [John 14:3], and that word “come” is the Greek “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι”.

Death is an enemy, not a friend [1 Corinthians 15:26], for it has a sting, which will one day be no more, and it was not until after the Resurrection of Christ Jesus, that He “...hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” [2 Timothy 1:10].

 

 

[9] The thief specifically stated this: "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42, which is the context of Luke 23:43, and we know that Jesus has not yet received that Kingdom, for He does not yet sit upon the Throne of Glory:

 

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matthew 25:31

 

Jesus went to go receive the Kingdom, and went into that Far Country, 3rd Heaven. He is not yet married unto it.

 

He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:12

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniuel 7:13

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:14

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17

 

The number of His Kingdom is not made up yet, but soon it will be.

See also: Isaiah 61:10, 62:5; Matthew 21:33, 25:14; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9

Especially Read Matthew 25 and the Ten Virgins.


Edited by banner over me was love, 03 February 2014 - 09:37 PM.





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