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Considering The Texts - John 14:1-4


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#61 DaveW

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 10:08 PM

And now you are changing the Word of God because you don't like the phrasing.

Just as the Jehovahs witnesses do with John 1 - they change it because they don't like the Bible saying that Jesus IS GOD.
So they change it........

How much more corruption will you insist on spouting here?

And once again a simple answer is covered in so many words in the hope that you can slip such lies and deceit in without being discovered.

A REMINDER TO ALL READERS THAT THIS IS NOT "IN DEPTH" AS THIS FALSE TEACHER CONTINUALLY CLAIMS, BUT BLOATED AND OVERCOMPLICATED AND FILLED WITH EXTRANEOUS AND OFTEN IRRELEVANT MATERIAL, WITH THE EXPRESS INTENT OF CAUSING CONFUSION.

The Bible states things simply, not as this man.

Edited by DaveW, 04 February 2014 - 12:11 AM.


#62 banner over me was love

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 12:30 AM

[Banner Over Me Was love] Paul didn't actually die when stoned, though some may still believe he did.  The connection with Paul's saying in 2 Corinthians 12:2 is not referring back to Paul's stoning contextually.  We can also consider the saying of Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 in the timing of the little word "and".
 
[Ukulelemike] "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Yes, that little word, "and", makes it clear that Paul is keeping the same thought complete as one thought-absent from the body, AND to be present with the Lord-once we are absent from the body, which you believe never happens at all, if I am correct, being the standard SDA doctrine, that the Spirit is not separate from the body, then this verse still disproves that idea. Paul desires to be absent from the body AND present with the Lord, both of whoich happen at death for the believer.

 

The [basic] Claim: To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, means as soon as I am absent from the body [dead], I am immediately present with the LORD per 2 Cor 5:8.

 

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

 

Let's take a look at the immediate surrounding Context, 2 Corinthians 5:1-21,

 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1

 

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Corinthians 5:2

 

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:3

 

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

 

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5

 

Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Corinthians 5:6

(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 2 Corinthians 5:7

We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 2 Corinthians 5:9

 

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

 

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:11

 

For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 2 Corinthians 5:12

 

For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 2 Corinthians 5:13

 

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 2 Corinthians 5:14

 

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 2 Corinthians 5:15

 

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2 Corinthians 5:16

 

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

 

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Corinthians 5:18

 

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19

 

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

 

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

Many people simply miss the point of Paul in that verse, and generally misquote it, either in practice or in their heads, and forget what he says elsewhere. Let's consider what Paul does say:

 

[1] Firstly, the text does not read [as many ofter innocently misquote, either verbally or recite in their head]:

 

"We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body [IS] to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8

 

The actual word inbetween "absent from the body" and "to be present with the Lord" is the Greek word "kai" [and] and not "is" as many would [perhaps innocently/ignorantly] imply it to mean. For we see clearly this:

 

We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

"2Co 5:8 θαρρουμενG2292 V-PAI-1P δεG1161 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ ευδοκουμενG2106 V-PAI-1P μαλλονG3123 ADV εκδημησαιG1553 V-AAN εκG1537 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN σωματοςG4983 N-GSN καιG2532 CONJ ενδημησαιG1736 V-AAN προςG4314 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM κυριονG2962 N-ASM"

 

The substitution of the “and” with “is” is entirely too common these days. If the passage did read “is”, it would indicate immediateness, an equals as it were, which would go like this:

 

To be “absent from the body” IS [=] “to be present with the Lord”, like unto the mathematical equation 2+2 IS [=] 4. Yet that is not what we read at all. What we do read is two individual events separated by time as we shall see. The little Greek word “kai” [and] means all the difference here.

There is much in that little word "and", from Paul, since he is clear that the passage of time in this world still passes, but the dead know it not, and shall awake in the resurrection, and it is
"then" that those which died in the Lord shall “be present with the Lord”, as it is said it is “then”, that we "shall ever be with the Lord"... that is, they were not "with" Him [the Lord, Jesus] before, except by hope while we yet lived, even "earnestly desiring" it [2 Corinthians 5:2] and "faith" [2 Corinthians 5:7] in that resurrection...


"Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:17

 

If we had “immortal souls” that never die, what then is “swallowed up of life”? Nothing. Yet, Paul uses a time word, "then", and when did Paul say this was to be? Notice that Paul in his previous letter to the Corinthians designates the time of the change and reward, which is at "the Last Trunp".

Scripture says that we are
"caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:17], and that Jesus would come back for us all at once [John 14:1-4]. Not individually as we die, fall into the sleep of death and are so buried in the grave, remaining in the tomb, in the dust of the earth.

 

Paul knew the Scriptures, even as others:

 

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isaiah 26:19

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psalms 50:3

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psalms 50:4

Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalms 50:5

 

Paul clearly says:Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25

Marvel not at this: for
the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, John 5:28


"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." 2 Timothy 4:8

 

That word “appearing” is the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ.


But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

 

 

[2] Notice also another very key to this text, which is in 2 Corinthians 5:5,7, speaking about "faith", and “earnest[ness]” that is waiting for the reality of the Resurrection, not of actual "sight" or of obtaining immediately upon one's death.

 

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5

 

(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 2 Corinthians 5:7

 

Paul knew that he would not enter into Heaven, until his resurrection, which would not happen in his own day of dying, but in the Day of the LORD,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind... as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thessalonians 2:2;p

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2:3

 

 

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Peter says the same in all his Epistles, which we may yet come to later.

 

 

[3] Paul will not contradict himself, and also in the light of :

 

...the scripture cannot be broken.” John 10:35;p

 

For Paul knew the Scriptures:

 

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

 

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:6

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do
it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10

 

His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Job 14:21

 

If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Job 34:14

All flesh shall perish together, and
man shall turn again unto dust. Job 34:15

 

They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:16

One dieth in his full strength, being wholly at ease and quiet. Job 21:23

And another dieth in the bitterness of his soul, and never eateth with pleasure. Job 21:25

They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them. Job 21:26

For ye say, Where
is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked? Job 21:28

That
the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. Job 21:30

Yet shall
he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb. Job 21:32

 

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115:17

 

Consider what Paul has stated just before our texts, in that he was not desirous to be without clothing for long, “naked”, but looked forward to the time of the new immortal clothing, being “clothed upon” [immortality], which he did not yet actually possess, but would have at the Resurrection. Paul constantly spoke about this:

 

Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. Acts 17:18

 

Notice that he did not preach unto them, Platonic Dualism, which they already knew of, or of the Greek philosophy [Plato, Aristotle, Socrates] and superstitions of entering into Heaven/Hell, as an ethereal ghastial immortal non-entity, as the Greek and Roman 'religions' taught. They already taught that, being the “wisdom of this world”.

 

"...is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S", "Soul"] - http://www.newadvent...then/14153a.htm

"... For
positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "I"; "Immortality"] - http://www.newadvent...then/07687a.htm

 

Yet Paul preached the Resurrection:

 

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. Acts 23:6

 

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15

 

Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day. Acts 24:21

 

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Romans 6:5

 

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:12

 

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1 Corinthians 15:13

 

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:21

 

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 1 Corinthians 15:42

 

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Philippians 3:10

 

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Philippians 3:11

 

Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:2

 

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: Hebrews 11:35

 

This is even confirmed outside of the Scripture by others, notice:

 

Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho:

 

"... Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you.2260 For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth],2261 and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristæ,2262 Galilæans, Hellenists,2263 Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. ...

 

2261 i.e., resurrection. ..." [Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LXXX [80]] - http://www.ccel.org/...ii.iv.lxxx.html

 

Additionally, both William Tyndale, John Frith, George Wishart, John Milton, Baptists, among others and Martin Luther of the Reformation itself taught that the dead are asleep, knowing nothing, knowing full well that the Scripture taught it and used it against Rome's paganistic teachings:

 

http://biblelight.net/luther-tyndale.htm

 

http://www.sundaylaw.net/studies/truelife/immortality/reformat.htm

 

[Wikipedia; "Annihilationism"] - http://en.wikipedia....Annihilationism
[Wikipedia; "Conditional Immortality"] - http://en.wikipedia....nal_immortality
[Wikipedia; "Soul Death"] - http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Soul_death
[Wikipedia; "Christian Mortalism"] - http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Soul_sleep

 

"William Tyndale (1484-1536)

 

English Bible translator and Martyr

 

In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed:

 

"And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181 - http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

 

Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innante immortality. Thus:

 

"The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And becuase the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180

 

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

 

"And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118

 

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says is slightly sarcastic vein:

 

" 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not conforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection?" - ibid. p.118

 

John Frith (1503-33),

 

associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr writes

 

"Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;..and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." - An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester

 

Martin Luther (1493-1546)

 

German reformer and Bible Translator.

 

Regarding Luther's position Archdeacon Francis Blackburne of Cleveland; rector of Richmond states in his "Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State" of 1765 :

 

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment in his life." page 14.

 

Martin Luther declared that it was the Pope, not the bible, who taught that "the soul is immortal" Martin Luther, Defence, proposition 27

 

"Luther held that the soul died with the body, and that God would hereafter raise both the one and the other." Catholic Cardinal Du Perron, Historical View, p344

 

Here are some sample Luther citations. The first one is from a 1573 translation.

 

"Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v.

 

But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288

 

"Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760"

 

George Wishart (1500-1546),

 

Greek scholar, friend of Latimer, tutor of John Knox, and martyr.

Wishart was charged with attacking auricular confession, transubstatiation, extreme unction, holy water, invocation of saints and purgatory. Charge "XVI" was for promulgating the doctrine of the sleep of the soul.

 

Charge "XVI": Thou false heretic has preached openly saying, that the soul of man shall sleep to the latter day of judgment and shall not obtain life immortal until that day." Blackburne, "Historical View", p.21.

 

General Baptists

 

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

 

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)

Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

 

"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also page 70 here, top right hand column] - http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

 

John Milton (1608-1674),

"Greatest of the Sacred Poets"; Latin secretary to Cromwell.

 

"Inasmuch then as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part, suffers privation of life...The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment.", "Treatise of Christian Doctine" Vol.1, ch. 13, [see page 271 here] - http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

 

And many, many more, Finally

 

Dr A.A. Phelps, pastor Congregational Church, Rochester, New York, and editor of "The Bible Banner", in discussing "Is Man By Nature Immortal?" (pp.639-650), presents twelve counts against the doctrine of innate immortality:

  1. It has a bad history; it was introduced by the serpent in Eden, and springs from a heathen philosophy; it is not found in Jewish belief; is a compromise with Platonism; adopted and authenticated by the Church of Rome.

  2. It is at variance with the scriptural account of man's creation.

  3. It clashes with the Bible statement of man's fall.

  4. It is opposed to the scriptural doctrine of death.

  5. It is equally opposed to the physiological facts.

  6. Immortality is nowhere ascribed to man in his present state of existance.

  7. Immortality is a blessing to be sought, and not a birthright legacy.

  8. Inherent immortality is opposed to the scriptural doom of the wicked.

  9. It supersedes the necessity of the resurrection.

  10. It reduces the judgment scene to a solemn farce.

  11. It subverts the bible doctrine of Christ's second coming.

  12. It is a prolific source of error -Mohammedanism, Shakerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Purgatory, Mariolatry, Universalism, Eternal-Tormentism.” - [cited from] http://www.sundaylaw...ty/reformat.htm

Martin Luther:

 

"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..."

"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says, “Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96]” - Intermediate state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Elsewhere Luther states that:

 

As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

This current house [mortal] and that one to come at the resurrection [immortal, swallowing up death with eternal life], and there is no house [except the grave; Job 4:19, Job 17:13; Isaiah 26:19; Nahum 3:19; etc] inbetween, only death [unclothed], asleep, awaiting the resurrection.


For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Corinthians 5:2

If so be that
being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:3

For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 2 Corinthians 5:4

 

When did Paul himself expect that to be? At "that day", being "the last day", even at "the last trump", at the very "appearing" [this word is used of Christ's Second Advent/Coming] of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of Glory, coming in Power and Glory:


For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 1 Thessalonians 2:9

Henceforth
there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8

 

And again,


Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51

 

When?


In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

For
the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

But
every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

 

Paul knew what even Job stated:


And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God. Job 19:26

Whom
I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold... Job 19:27;p

 

For notice the question that Job asks:

 

For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Job 14:7

Though
the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; Job 14:8

[Yet] through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. Job 14:9


But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? Job 14:10

 

Well when "man dieth... where [is] he?"

And how does he answer?:


[As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: Job 14:11

 

So too, we "fail" and "decayeth" and "drieth up" and are returned unto "dust"...


So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12

...
hide me in the grave, ... keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, ... appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13;p [The Wrath of God is the 7 Last Plagues]

If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14

Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee... Job 14:15;p

 

Job knew he would die, return unto dust, and 'wait' in the grave, in death, unconscious, knowing nothing, until Jesus called him forth in the resurrection "at the last day" when the "trump of God" shall sound, and then he would answer that call to immortal life.

 

 

[4] Let us see a similar passage in Romans 8, in which Paul explains that we are "waiting" for our freedom from the "bondage of corruption" [our current mortal body], when we "at the last trump" shall be "clothed" with that immortal one, the only 'inbetween' would to be the grave, which is death, asleep, without consciousness, in the grave, awaiting as Job would be and still is, etc:


Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8:21

For we know that
the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:22

And not only [they],
but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23

 

[5] In Genesis 2:7:

 

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

 

We see how mankind was created a “living soul”, by being made of two things, which combined, made a third whole [“dust of the earth” [lifeless] + “breath of life of God” breathed into “the nostrils” = “living soul”, the whole living being], and understanding that, helps us all to further understand what happen in [1st] death.

 

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

 

Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29

 

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

 

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

 

The only reason there is even these deaths [plural] at all, instead of instant destruction to man, is because of Christ Jesus, the promise of His life and sacrifice, our surety from the very beginning:

 

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8

 

Paul knew this, why then don't most Christians? Because the doctrine of the 'immortal soul/spirit' is one of the two main pillars of the doctrines of the devil, for it allows him access to almost anyone on earth through various means of deception. That is why God forbids spiritism.

 

PS. I forgot to include the original subject, Paul being stoned, and was not actually dead. I apologize. Here are those texts:

 

And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. Acts 14:19

 

Supposing: νομισαντες: 2nd Def, to suppose, deem or think.  They merely thought Paul died, but we see by the very next verse, Paul was alive:

 

Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe. Acts 14:20

 

In yet another verse, we see Paul speak again of this incident, but notice, he never mentions that he actually died:

 

Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 2 Corinthians 11:25

 

Then considering that 2 Corinthians 12:1-7, we can see that it is not linked, either by the timeframe [see for instance some indicate Acts 22:17, though I am not particular at this point about that text, etc] or the content, notice that Paul speaks of this particular event as does John the Apostle upon the Isle of Patmos, or as Daniel the Prophet, speaking of "visions" and "revelations" and being "caught up" in them and nothing about being stoned or dying [the dead know nothing, remember, yet spiritism teaches one gains knowledge from being dead] or any such matter:

 

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12:1

 

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

 

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 2 Corinthians 12:3

 

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

 

Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 2 Corinthians 12:5

 

For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 2 Corinthians 12:6

 

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7


Edited by banner over me was love, 04 February 2014 - 04:41 AM.


#63 DaveW

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 01:13 AM

There is no implication of a span of time in that verse - "and" is a joiner - it inherently joins the two concepts together, it does not divide them apart.

You can redefine and reinterpret these verses as much as you like but it does not indicate or suggest a time span between these two things.

And the rest of the post is more bloating and guff to distract from the verse itself.

Edited by DaveW, 04 February 2014 - 01:14 AM.


#64 John81

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:04 AM

"Soul sleep" is clearly nowhere to be found in Scripture. As Dave has pointed out, much twisting of Scripture and even insinuating lying by Jesus and the Apostles is necessary to overcome their clear teachings in Scripture that heaven or hell is the instant new abode of all who die; no sleeping of souls.



#65 Ukulelemike

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:15 PM

You waste a lot of space to answer very simple things, and in doing so its clear you have no answer. Your argument about Samuel being not Samuel doesn't prove it wasn't Samuel, simply because the Bible specifically states that it IS Samuel.  Whenever dealing with devils, the Bible states they are devils.

 

"And in th e synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God. (Luke 4:33, 34.) Clearly the devil, not the man, is speaking.

 

Yet the Bible calls the spirit that the witch 'brought up', (though indeed, Samuel says that Saul brought him up), Samuel each time; were it a devil impersonating Samuel, the Bible would specify it. So your argument has no merit; its just that the simple truth doesn't fit SDA doctrine so the truth must be altered to fit.

 

Absent from the body=present with the Lord:

  How can you even argue it, since the SDA doesn't believe the spirit/soul even leaves the body, but remains with the body until the resurrection, sleeping in the grave? Yet Paul says that we will be absent from the body. This occurs AT death, not at some time afterward. Notice:

 

  For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.  All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" (Ecc 3:19-21)

 

Notice, at death, the body of man, as the body of the beast, goes to the dust, but the spirit of the man 'goeth upward', while the spirit of the beast "goeth downward to the earth" The difference between man and beast is the spirit, the life-the beast has no life after death-the spirit ends, while the spirit of man, the life thereof, goes up, to the presence of God. The spirit is not ust breath, as virtually every instance of its use in scripture verifies-it is the life of man, the person, the emotions, the character, and at death it departs to either Heaven, for the believer, or to Hell, for the unbeliever.

 

How about the soul? In many uses it is interchangabe with spirit-it is the life force, so to speak, the person. It, too leaves the body at death, and does not sleep.

 

And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died ) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. (Gen 35:18) Soul departing. Apparently not sleeping in the earth.

 

"And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." (1Kings 17:21, 22) Apparently the child's soul went somewhere, and came back into him. Not sleeping in the earth.

 

See, the Bibe is really much simpler than you have been taught to believe it is. I don't need to give a hundred verses from all over the Bible and try to make them all somehow intermesh in a single thought to prove my point. The Bible is a simple book, with simple truths. Salvation is simple: doctrine is simple. we CAN, indeed, come to the Lord as a little child and receive the Spirit of God. Stop trying to over-think it all, and receive the simplicity of Christ.



#66 DaveW

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:13 PM


The comma should actually be after the word “To day” and not before it, like so, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.”


You do realise that this makes no sense grammatically?

And you also realise that your Greek quote above that section has no commas at all in it?
That might be because their language works a little differently - often the "grammar" is implied in the gender, the order, and tense of the words.

personally, I am going to trust 70 men who were experts in their languages and agreed on the structure of that verse over some bloke who knows a fraction of the Greek that these men knew who on his own decided, because of his own individual doctrinal errors, that he knew better.

And once again you quoted huge sections of the Bible which do not influence in any way the placement of a single comma, and added in argument upon argument and quotes from men who do not even refer to the comma, and gushings of your own babbling, to try to "prove" a point that requires a single verse and a reasoned reading with a basic understanding of grammar to see that you are wrong.

proof positive and evidence abundant of your tactic to deceive through confusion.

Edited by DaveW, 04 February 2014 - 07:14 PM.


#67 banner over me was love

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:44 AM

[Banner Over Me Was Love] Moses slept in death and was resurrected by Jesus and then taken to Heaven.

 

[Ukulelemike] This is read into the Bible, an assumption not there based on a false premise.

 

[Banner Over Me Was Love] Elijah was taken to Heaven without seeing the sleep of death.

 

[Ukulelemike] True

 

 

 

The [basic] Claim:  Moses and Elijah weren’t sleeping (Matt. 17:1-4) and are in Heaven, Moses never was resurrected, though Elijah was taken to Heaven without seeing death and so how can you say that those that die are asleep in their graves knowing nothing?

 

Here are the texts in consideration: 2 Kings 2:1-25; Matthew 16:28 - Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-37; Romans 5:4; Jude 1:9; 2 Peter 1:1-21; and various others

 

2 Kings 2:1-25

 

And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Kings 2:1

 

And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel. 2 Kings 2:2

 

And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 2 Kings 2:3

 

And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho. 2 Kings 2:4

 

And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 2 Kings 2:5

 

And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on. 2 Kings 2:6

 

And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan. 2 Kings 2:7

 

And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground. 2 Kings 2:8

 

And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 2 Kings 2:9

 

And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. 2 Kings 2:10

 

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

 

And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 2 Kings 2:12

 

He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan; 2 Kings 2:13

 

And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over. 2 Kings 2:14

 

And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him. 2 Kings 2:15

 

And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 2 Kings 2:16

 

And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. 2 Kings 2:17

 

And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not? 2 Kings 2:18

 

And the men of the city said unto Elisha, Behold, I pray thee, the situation of this city is pleasant, as my lord seeth: but the water is naught, and the ground barren. 2 Kings 2:19

 

And he said, Bring me a new cruse, and put salt therein. And they brought it to him. 2 Kings 2:20

 

And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land. 2 Kings 2:21

 

So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake. 2 Kings 2:22

 

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 2 Kings 2:23

 

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 2 Kings 2:24

 

And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria. 2 Kings 2:25

 

 

Matthew 16:28 - Matthew 17:1-13

 

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28

 

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, Matthew 17:1

 

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. Matthew 17:2

 

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:3

 

Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Matthew 17:4

 

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. Matthew 17:5

 

And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. Matthew 17:6

 

And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. Matthew 17:7

 

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. Matthew 17:8

 

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Matthew 17:9

 

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? Matthew 17:10

 

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. Matthew 17:11

 

But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Matthew 17:12

 

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. Matthew 17:13

 

 

Mark 9:1-13

 

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 9:1

 

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. Mark 9:2

 

And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. Mark 9:3

 

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. Mark 9:4

 

And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Mark 9:5

 

For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. Mark 9:6

 

And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Mark 9:7

 

And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. Mark 9:8

 

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. Mark 9:9

 

And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. Mark 9:10

 

And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? Mark 9:11

 

And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. Mark 9:12

 

But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him. Mark 9:13

 

 

Luke 9:27-37

 

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27

 

And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. Luke 9:28

 

And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. Luke 9:29

 

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Luke 9:30

 

Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. Luke 9:31

 

But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. Luke 9:32

 

And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. Luke 9:33

 

While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. Luke 9:34

 

And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Luke 9:35

 

And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. Luke 9:36

 

And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him. Luke 9:37

 

 

Romans 5:4

 

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:4

 

 

Jude 1:9

 

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

 

 

2 Peter 1:1-21

 

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

 

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 2 Peter 1:2

 

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 2 Peter 1:3

 

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:4

 

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 2 Peter 1:5

 

And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 2 Peter 1:6

 

And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 2 Peter 1:7

 

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:8

 

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:9

 

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 2 Peter 1:10

 

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:11

 

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 2 Peter 1:12

 

Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 2 Peter 1:13

 

Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 2 Peter 1:14

 

Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 2 Peter 1:15

 

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16

 

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 2 Peter 1:17

 

And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2 Peter 1:18

 

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2 Peter 1:19

 

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1 Peter 1:20

 

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21

 

 

Malachi 4:1-6

 

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

 

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. Malachi 4:2

 

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 4:3

 

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Malachi 4:4

 

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Malachi 4:5

 

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Malachi 4:6

 

 

Various Texts:

 

Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: Deuteronomy 4:21

 

But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. Deuteronomy 4:22

 

And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan. Deuteronomy 31:2

 

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation. Deuteronomy 31:14

 

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Deuteronomy 31:16

 

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deuteronomy 34:5

 

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:6

 

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. Deuteronomy 34:7

 

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended. Deuteronomy 34:8

 

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. Matthew 11:24

 

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Matthew 16:14

 

Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. Matthew 27:47

 

The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Matthew 27:49

 

Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets. Mark 6:15

 

And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets. Mark 8:28

 

And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias. Mark 15:35

 

And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down. Mark 15:36

 

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Luke 1:17

 

But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; Luke 4:25

 

But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. Luke 4:26

 

Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead; Luke 9:7

 

And of some, that Elias had appeared; and of others, that one of the old prophets was risen again. Luke 9:8

 

And Herod said, John have I beheaded: but who is this, of whom I hear such things? And he desired to see him. Luke 9:9

 

And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? Luke 9:18

 

They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again. Luke 9:19

 

He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. Luke 9:20

 

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? Luke 9:54

 

And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. John 1:21

 

And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? John 1:25

 

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Romans 11:2

 

Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. James 5:17

 

 

Now, let us consider what we may from these texts. First we shall consider Elijah, and then Moses.

 

Elijah:

 

[1] To any which claim that Elijah is in Heaven, and is not therefore sleeping, would be correct. He is one of the very few Biblical exceptions. This is not because Elijah died and was buried and suddenly found himself in Heaven as some immortalized man-shade without a body, but because he was changed and glorified and wholly and directly taken to Heaven without seeing death by an angel of God. We may see this from the scriptures:

 

And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Kings 2:1

 

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

 

And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 2 Kings 2:12

 

Elisha, knew this event was to take place, and would not leave the side of Elijah for anything short of the event:

 

“... As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. ...” 2 Kings 2:2

 

And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 2 Kings 2:3

 

“...As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. ...” 2 Kings 2:4

 

And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 2 Kings 2:5

 

“... As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. ...” 2 Kings 2:6

 

...

 

And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 2 Kings 2:9

 

And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. 2 Kings 2:10

 

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

 

And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 2 Kings 2:12

 

For any which may think that Elijah simply went up and was deposited on earth elsewhere later to die, we see by the very scriptures that Elijah was indeed taken to Heaven alive, and Elisha knew that to search on earth for Elijah would be fruitless:

 

And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 2 Kings 2:16

 

And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. 2 Kings 2:17

 

And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not? 2 Kings 2:18

 

Further we read, that even the children of the area knew of the taking up of Elijah to Heaven, and mocked at Elisha for not being taken also:

 

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 2 Kings 2:23

 

These texts are too plain to misunderstand, but we may briefly also consider a few more things.

 

 

[2] Elijah himself, literally in glory, was seen again in the days of Jesus Christ, upon the Mount of Transfiguration:

 

Matthew's account:

 

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:3

 

Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Matthew 17:4

 

...

 

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. Matthew 17:8

 

Mark's account:

 

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. Mark 9:4

 

And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Mark 9:5

 

 

And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. Mark 9:8

 

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. Mark 9:9

 

Luke's account:

 

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Luke 9:30

 

Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. Luke 9:31

 

But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. Luke 9:32

 

And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. Luke 9:33

 

 

And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. Luke 9:36

 

 

[3] We also know of the prophecy given in Malachi 4:

 

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Malachi 4:5

 

Every Jew also knew of this prophecy, though they did not understand it, and yet they understood that Elijah was in Heaven and even expected him to come back, as we find throughout the New Testament, and some even considered that John the Baptist, or even Jesus, was literally Elijah returned, though they were incorrect in this understanding, and some even misunderstood Jesus calling unto God, thinking Jesus was calling to be saved by Elijah's so-called return to earth from Heaven:

 

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Matthew 16:14

 

Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. Matthew 27:47

 

The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Matthew 27:49

 

Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets. Mark 6:15

 

And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets. Mark 8:28

 

And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias. Mark 15:35

 

And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down. Mark 15:36

 

Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead; Luke 9:7

 

And of some, that Elias had appeared; and of others, that one of the old prophets was risen again. Luke 9:8

 

And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? Luke 9:18

 

They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again. Luke 9:19

 

And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. John 1:21

 

And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? John 1:25

 

Therefore, we can see that Elijah never fell upon the sleep of death, but was taken to Heaven directly, and glorified, and various Jews of Jesus' day, though mistaken about a certain prophecy, expected him to come back from Heaven to earth at some point.

 

Now let us turn to Moses, who no longer sleeps in death, but was raised to eternal life.

 

 

Moses:

 

[1] Moses, according to the Word of the LORD, died in the land of Moab, and fell on the sleep of death, and was buried by the LORD Himself.

 

Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: Deuteronomy 4:21

 

But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. Deuteronomy 4:22

 

And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan. Deuteronomy 31:2

 

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation. Deuteronomy 31:14

 

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Deuteronomy 31:16

 

And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people: Deuteronomy 32:40

 

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deuteronomy 34:5

 

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:6

 

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. Deuteronomy 34:7

 

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended. Deuteronomy 34:8

 

And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered. Numbers 27:13

 

Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. Numbers 31:2

 

 

[2] After Moses was fallen upon the sleep of death, and was buried by the LORD [Jesus], we see in the record of Jude, that the LORD Jesus Himself [aka Michael the Archangel, Who is as God the Highest Messenger [of the Father], YHVH, the Son, God Almighty, the I AM THAT I AM, Uncreated Creator, the Word, etc* to be demonstrated from Scripture and historically later if necessary, please ask for it kindly, and it will be given] came down again unto Moses to raise him unto life. However, we see that satan resisted this and disputed against do any such thing, for since that Moses had sinned by disobeying God's command [Moses had sinned in striking the rock twice, disobeying the LORD, who had said, only speak to it [Numbers 20:8]], and the wages for sin was death [Romans 6:23], satan claimed that Moses belonged within his own power, the power of the grave ["...him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14;p] and should not be resurrected, or have life. The LORD Jesus rebukes satan and claims Moses as His own:

 

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

 

The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. 1 Samuel 2:6

 

Jesus, the greatest and highest messenger of the Father, from the very bosom of the Father, is the Resurrection and the Life, and His voice, the voice of God, can raise the dead to life [see also 1 Thessalonians 4:16]:

 

"...I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." John 11:25;p


We know that Moses was indeed resurrected for several reasons, the first of which is, that death reigned from Adam to Moses, as the following text declares:

 

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:14

 

We also know, that after Moses was specially resurrected [himself being raised to immortal life, holding his title/deed of inheritance in the name of his Deliverer and Redeemer – Jesus Christ, the very “'Angel' [messenger of the Father] of the burning Bush and of the Pillar of Cloud and Fire, the very LORD God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob]], others in the Old Testament were also resurrected, and awoken from their sleep temporarily, they yet dying and falling on sleep again, unlike Moses whom we later see come in glory with Elijah upon the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus:

 

Old Testament:

 

Elijah raises the Widow of Zarephath's [1 Kings 17:17-24];

 

Elijah raises the son of the Shunamite Woman [2 Kings 4:18-37];

 

A man and Elisha's Bones [2 Kings 13:20-21];

 

The Valley of Bones, the Resurrected Army [Ezekiel 37:1-14].

 

 

[3] Moses was indeed alive, along with Elijah, and seen in glory together, upon the Mount of Transfiguration in the days of Jesus Christ:

 

Matthew's account:

 

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:3

 

Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Matthew 17:4

 

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. Matthew 17:8

 

Mark's account:

 

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. Mark 9:4

 

And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Mark 9:5

 

And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. Mark 9:8

 

And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. Mark 9:9

 

Luke's account:

 

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Luke 9:30

 

Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. Luke 9:31

 

But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. Luke 9:32

 

And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. Luke 9:33

 

And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. Luke 9:36

 

 

[4] We can know that both Moses and Elijah were literally there in glory with Jesus upon that Mount from the witnesses testimony later recorded for us:


Turning to the Gospels, we see that Jesus after making a very specific statement:

 

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28

 

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 9:1

 

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27

 

That He took 3 disciples, Peter, James & John up to a Mountain after 6 days and just before 8 days [thus it was 7 days later] of making that statement:

 

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, Matthew 17:1

 

“And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves...” Mark 9:2;p

 

And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. Luke 9:28

 

This will become important to understand when we realize that Jesus took them up, the 7th Day, and we connect this with Peter's epistles about the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ. We know that this earth is 6,000 years old, and the 7th Millennium [7th 1,000 year] is soon to come. We can know when it is near, for we are not in darkness, and He is nearer than when we first believed...

 

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. Matthew 17:2

 

“...he was transfigured before them.” Mark 9:2;p

 

And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. Mark 9:3

 

And thus we see Jesus glorified, and not Him only, but two others with Him, Moses and Elijah, in glory:

 

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:3

 

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. Mark 9:4

 

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Luke 9:30

 

Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. Luke 9:31

 

We want to take notice that Jesus was “transfigured before them”, and they saw this great thing in their direct eyesight. Furthermore we read that the 3 Disciples/Apostles were able to “behold” [Matthew 17:3; Luke 9:30] this, and them also who “appeared” [Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:31] there. Also we read that they heard Moses and Elijah “talking” [Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:31] as they “spake” [Luke 9:31] unto Jesus. They were “awake” [Luke 9:32, some translations read “fully awake” - ASV, BBE, DET, WEB, etc] to see Jesus glory and these two glorified men that “stood with” Him.


"behold": "idou" "ἰδού"; meaning: "1) behold, see, lo[ok]" [Strong's Concordance] [see also Thayer's Lexicon and Vine's Expository]

"appeared": "optanomai" "ὀπτάνομαι"; meaning: "1) to look at, behold; 2) to allow one's self to be seen, to appear" [Strong's Concordance] [see also Thayer's Lexicon and Vine's Expository]

 

Further, we can turn to Peter's account also in his epistles, where he speaks of the 2nd Advent, in the context of the Mount of Transfiguration events:


For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 2 Peter 1:17

And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2 Peter 1:18


Notice, Peter specifically says that they were "with him [Jesus] in the holy mount" and were "eyewitnesses" [they literally saw the event] of the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ, and "heard" "the voice" [of the Father].


"eyewitnesses": "epoptēs" "ἐπόπτης"; meaning: "1) an overseer, inspector; 2) spectator, eye witness of anything" [Strong's Concordance]; "...to be used here to designate those privileged to be present at the heavenly spectacle of the transfiguration of Christ." Thayer's lexicon]; "Eyewitness: primarily "an overseer" (epi, "over"), then, a "spectator, an eye-witness" of anything, is used in 2 Peter 1:16 of those who were present at the transfiguration of Christ. ... Cp. epopteuo, "to behold," 1 Peter 2:12, 3:2." [Vine's Expository]


Moses represents that group that fell on the sleep of death and will be raised unto Life and changed at the 2nd Advent, and Elijah represent those who will be remaining alive and so changed in the twinkling of an eye and translated directly at the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ when He comes in glory. As a side note the special resurrected group at Jesus own resurrection represented the First fruits of the Great Harvest of Life to come, and Enoch represents all those who walked daily with God and communed with Him, and they shall be taken from here at that time to return to Heaven with Jesus for 1,000 years...

 

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51

 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

 

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:53

 

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:54

 

Then we shall all shout and sing together, and sing the Song of Moses and of the Lamb:

 

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:55


Edited by banner over me was love, 05 February 2014 - 05:32 AM.


#68 DaveW

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:54 AM

Michael the Archangel IS NOT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Jesus IS NOT AN ANGEL- but God manifest in the flesh.

You are misrepresenting once again the Biblical account.

And you have again included much irrelevant information so as to overwhelm the reader and cause confusion.

You also misrepresent constantly the link between death and sleep, for the pernicious purpose of deceiving the reader.

Soul sleep is not stated nor implied in the Word of God.

It is a false doctrine taught by false prophets who have been shown to be in error and untrustworthy, both in your wicked SDA and in others also, such ad the Christadelphians who also hold to this deceit.

#69 banner over me was love

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:25 AM

...You also misrepresent constantly the link between death and sleep, for the pernicious purpose of deceiving the reader.

Soul sleep is not stated nor implied in the Word of God.

It is a false doctrine taught by false prophets who have been shown to be in error and untrustworthy, both in your wicked SDA and in others also, such ad the Christadelphians who also hold to this deceit.

Tell you what Brother,

 

Would you consider a more simpler approach?

 

 


Edited by banner over me was love, 05 February 2014 - 06:27 AM.


#70 DaveW

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 07:43 AM

Not care to address the ABSOLUTELY FALSE CLAIM THAT MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL IS JESUS?

#71 John81

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 08:28 AM

If there is no agreement upon who Jesus is, then any further discussion would be pointless.



#72 Ukulelemike

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:26 AM

Not sure of your point in all your verses-they do nothing to prove your point. I agree that Elijah was taken up bodily-no disagreement there, you don't have to convince anyone. As for Moses sleeping in the grave, obviously not, since he was with Jesus and obviously knew of the work He had before Him-why bring Moses up out of sleep, give him a run-down on what's happening, then send him off again? or even keep him in heaven-he wasn't resurrected when he was with Jesus-he was spirit.

Notice, even Peter said, in one of the verses you quoted:  "Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me." (2 Peter 1:13,14)

 

He was going to PUT OFF the tabernacle which he was in, as one might put off a piece of clothing-that means he would leave it. No sleeping in the dust for Peter!



#73 DaveW

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 10:05 AM

I have already told everyone the point of the multiplicity of verses and extraneous information he uses - it is to confuse and overwhelm with information.
It matters not if it is relevant - and much of it is not - just so long as it pads out to make it look like a comprehensive answer.

I don't know why he is persisting with this rubbish - it takes minimal effort to point out the errors and tactics, and I certainly don't watch his corrupt videos, nor do I take the time to read all of his lies and misinterpretations.

#74 Ukulelemike

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:27 AM

I have already told everyone the point of the multiplicity of verses and extraneous information he uses - it is to confuse and overwhelm with information.
It matters not if it is relevant - and much of it is not - just so long as it pads out to make it look like a comprehensive answer.

I don't know why he is persisting with this rubbish - it takes minimal effort to point out the errors and tactics, and I certainly don't watch his corrupt videos, nor do I take the time to read all of his lies and misinterpretations.

I suspect most of us understand this-its standard tactic of many false religions to seek to confound with overwhelming amounts of information in order to gain legitimacy. I have no doubt he fully believes what he is saying, but also that he was brought into their fold the same way that he now works. I believe the dear boy, (I think), is sadly missing the great simplicity found in the Bible.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" 2Cor 11:3

Sadly, that which you call HIS lies are not his, but they belong to a pernicious system that has enticed many very intelligent persons into their fold. Our desire, of course, is to convince him otherwise, that perhaps he might be redeemed from among them, basically the same goal that he seeks for us, though he is mistaken. His faith is ultimately in their system.

 

Let's consider some of the prophecies of their prophetess, Ellen G. White, whom the church still holds to have been a true prophet of God:

 

   Mrs. White made this statement at a church conference in 1856 and it received notoriety because it was published in her "Testimonies to the Church" and many church members read it. Mrs. White describes her "vision":  "I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.'" Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 131

  I would say this did not come to pass-she was wrong, her prophecy failed. I suspect all those people are, as she said first, food for worms already, including herself.

 

In 1864 she wrote:"The human family was presented before me, enfeebled. Every generation has been growing weaker, and disease of every form visits the human race.... Satan's power upon the human family increases. If the Lord should not soon come and destroy his power, the earth would soon be depopulated." Testimony #8, p.94, in Spiritual Gifts III-IV 

In fact, the earth has grown in numbers considerably since that time, and the Lord has not yet returned.  Failed.

 

How about the revival of slavery?  "Slavery will again be revived in the Southern States; for the spirit of slavery still lives. Therefore it will not do for those who labor among the colored people to preach the truth as boldly and openly as they would be free to do in other places. Even Christ clothed His lessons in figures and parables to avoid the opposition of the Pharisees." (Spalding & Magan Collection, page 21 and 2 MR #153, page 300)

  Considering we now have, for good or evil, the first black man as President of the US, I'd say this was another failure.

 

The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah on San Francisco and Oakland? "San Francisco and Oakland are becoming as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Lord will visit them. Not far hence they will suffer under His judgments."--Ms 30, 1903.

 Now certainly a few years later San Fran got hit with a mighty earthquake, yet today, it still stands as wicked as ever, a great political power still. And Oakland was barely touched by that earthquake. As I recall, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was total and absolute. SO maybe we have to decide on what she meant by "not far hence".

 

Of course, we can deal in great depth, though we won't, on her  devilish doctrine of abstaining from meats.  What did she say on this subject?

 " The Lord would bring His people into a position where they will not touch nor taste the flesh of dead animals. Then let not these things be prescribed by any physician who has a knowledge of the truth for this time. There is no safety in eating the flesh of dead animals, and in a short time the milk of the cow will also be excluded from the diet of God's commandment- keeping people. In a short time it will not be safe to use anything that comes from the animal creation. Those who take God at His word and obey His commandments with the whole heart will be blessed. He will be their shield of protection. But the Lord will not be trifled with. Distrust, disobedience, and alienation from God's will and way will place the sinner in a position where the Lord cannot give him His divine favor." 18MR 354

Notice, above, where I have made bold, that she claimed the LORD would bring us to not eating animal flesh. Add, since this clearly stands in opposition to His very word, where He has told us such things as 25Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:  Shambles is a word for a marketplace where meat is sold. So we can eat meat with no problem in our conscience. Jesus ate meat, and in fact, it was prescribed for Him, as well as all Israel, as a part of the Passover feast, to eat "flesh meats" from a lamb or a kid.  Peter was commended to eat ALL meats, which the Lord Himself called clean, even thus removing the Mosaic ban on certain meats. The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.

 

"You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go? You have a work to do first. When you have done all for your children which God has left for you to do then you can with confidence claim the special help that God has promised to give you." 2T 361

  In fact, history and science has proven that some of the healthiest things a person can eat are meat, eggs butter and milk. I believe that, despite her claims to the opposite, Ellen White's continual poor health was partly caused by her poor diet, if indeed she actually held to a vegetarian diet.

 

"Men and women, by indulging the appetite in eating rich and highly seasoned foods, especially flesh-meats, with rich gravies, and by using stimulating drinks, as tea and coffee, create unnatural appetites. The system becomes fevered, the organs of digestion are injured, the mental faculties are beclouded, while the baser passions are excited, and predominate over the nobler faculties. The appetite becomes more unnatural, and more difficult of restraint. The circulation of the blood is not equalized, and the blood becomes impure. The whole system is deranged, and the demands of appetite become more unreasonable, craving exciting, hurtful things, until it is thoroughly depraved." RH JUN.27,1899

While perhaps gravies are not the best, the rest of this drivel is easily dismissed as poor understanding of nutrition. She just didn't know what she was talking about. And for someone who claims to be speaking as a prophet, this is disturbing, to say the least.

 

Remember as well that the Bible says  that commanding to abstain from meats is a "doctrine of devils." I seriously doubt that the Lord would have Paul write such a thing, then later send word to command to abstain from meats.

 

SDA stands and falls upon the writings and peculiar doctrines of Ellen G. White. She is found a false prophet, and a teacher of doctrines of devils, with poor understanding of diet and nutrition. 



#75 banner over me was love

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:43 PM

Not care to address the ABSOLUTELY FALSE CLAIM THAT MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL IS JESUS?

 

Brother DaveW,

 

Yes, I will come to that for you, and for anyone who desires to consider the subject, after I complete responding to anothers posts.  I am almost complete with those.  Please have patience with me a little while longer and I will pay thee all.

 

To help you out a little, and to give you something to consider on this subject before we get into it, please go and read Malachi 3:1 very 'carefully', and I am going to ask that when we do come to the subject, that you read what I say in the same.


Edited by banner over me was love, 05 February 2014 - 05:43 PM.


#76 banner over me was love

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:49 PM

If there is no agreement upon who Jesus is, then any further discussion would be pointless.

Christ Jesus is YHVH God, the Son, Uncreated Creator, the Alpha an Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last, the I AM THAT I AM, the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS, the WORD, etc.  One of his names/titles is also Michael Archangel, which simply means Who is as God, the Highest Messenger [of the Father].

 

When this subject is discussed, people have a starting misunderstanding on the word "angel", and incorrectly extrapolate from there.  If you will allow, we shall look at this closely, after a few more replies are given.



#77 banner over me was love

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:00 PM

I suspect most of us understand this-its standard tactic of many false religions to seek to confound with overwhelming amounts of information in order to gain legitimacy. I have no doubt he fully believes what he is saying, but also that he was brought into their fold the same way that he now works. I believe the dear boy, (I think), is sadly missing the great simplicity found in the Bible.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" 2Cor 11:3

Sadly, that which you call HIS lies are not his, but they belong to a pernicious system that has enticed many very intelligent persons into their fold. Our desire, of course, is to convince him otherwise, that perhaps he might be redeemed from among them, basically the same goal that he seeks for us, though he is mistaken. His faith is ultimately in their system.

 

Let's consider some of the prophecies of their prophetess, Ellen G. White, whom the church still holds to have been a true prophet of God:

 

   Mrs. White made this statement at a church conference in 1856 and it received notoriety because it was published in her "Testimonies to the Church" and many church members read it. Mrs. White describes her "vision":  "I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.'" Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 131

  I would say this did not come to pass-she was wrong, her prophecy failed. I suspect all those people are, as she said first, food for worms already, including herself.

 

In 1864 she wrote:"The human family was presented before me, enfeebled. Every generation has been growing weaker, and disease of every form visits the human race.... Satan's power upon the human family increases. If the Lord should not soon come and destroy his power, the earth would soon be depopulated." Testimony #8, p.94, in Spiritual Gifts III-IV 

In fact, the earth has grown in numbers considerably since that time, and the Lord has not yet returned.  Failed.

 

How about the revival of slavery?  "Slavery will again be revived in the Southern States; for the spirit of slavery still lives. Therefore it will not do for those who labor among the colored people to preach the truth as boldly and openly as they would be free to do in other places. Even Christ clothed His lessons in figures and parables to avoid the opposition of the Pharisees." (Spalding & Magan Collection, page 21 and 2 MR #153, page 300)

  Considering we now have, for good or evil, the first black man as President of the US, I'd say this was another failure.

 

The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah on San Francisco and Oakland? "San Francisco and Oakland are becoming as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Lord will visit them. Not far hence they will suffer under His judgments."--Ms 30, 1903.

 Now certainly a few years later San Fran got hit with a mighty earthquake, yet today, it still stands as wicked as ever, a great political power still. And Oakland was barely touched by that earthquake. As I recall, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was total and absolute. SO maybe we have to decide on what she meant by "not far hence".

 

Of course, we can deal in great depth, though we won't, on her  devilish doctrine of abstaining from meats.  What did she say on this subject?

 " The Lord would bring His people into a position where they will not touch nor taste the flesh of dead animals. Then let not these things be prescribed by any physician who has a knowledge of the truth for this time. There is no safety in eating the flesh of dead animals, and in a short time the milk of the cow will also be excluded from the diet of God's commandment- keeping people. In a short time it will not be safe to use anything that comes from the animal creation. Those who take God at His word and obey His commandments with the whole heart will be blessed. He will be their shield of protection. But the Lord will not be trifled with. Distrust, disobedience, and alienation from God's will and way will place the sinner in a position where the Lord cannot give him His divine favor." 18MR 354

Notice, above, where I have made bold, that she claimed the LORD would bring us to not eating animal flesh. Add, since this clearly stands in opposition to His very word, where He has told us such things as 25Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:  Shambles is a word for a marketplace where meat is sold. So we can eat meat with no problem in our conscience. Jesus ate meat, and in fact, it was prescribed for Him, as well as all Israel, as a part of the Passover feast, to eat "flesh meats" from a lamb or a kid.  Peter was commended to eat ALL meats, which the Lord Himself called clean, even thus removing the Mosaic ban on certain meats. The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.

 

"You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go? You have a work to do first. When you have done all for your children which God has left for you to do then you can with confidence claim the special help that God has promised to give you." 2T 361

  In fact, history and science has proven that some of the healthiest things a person can eat are meat, eggs butter and milk. I believe that, despite her claims to the opposite, Ellen White's continual poor health was partly caused by her poor diet, if indeed she actually held to a vegetarian diet.

 

"Men and women, by indulging the appetite in eating rich and highly seasoned foods, especially flesh-meats, with rich gravies, and by using stimulating drinks, as tea and coffee, create unnatural appetites. The system becomes fevered, the organs of digestion are injured, the mental faculties are beclouded, while the baser passions are excited, and predominate over the nobler faculties. The appetite becomes more unnatural, and more difficult of restraint. The circulation of the blood is not equalized, and the blood becomes impure. The whole system is deranged, and the demands of appetite become more unreasonable, craving exciting, hurtful things, until it is thoroughly depraved." RH JUN.27,1899

While perhaps gravies are not the best, the rest of this drivel is easily dismissed as poor understanding of nutrition. She just didn't know what she was talking about. And for someone who claims to be speaking as a prophet, this is disturbing, to say the least.

 

Remember as well that the Bible says  that commanding to abstain from meats is a "doctrine of devils." I seriously doubt that the Lord would have Paul write such a thing, then later send word to command to abstain from meats.

 

SDA stands and falls upon the writings and peculiar doctrines of Ellen G. White. She is found a false prophet, and a teacher of doctrines of devils, with poor understanding of diet and nutrition. 

Brother Ukulelemike,

 

I stand upon the Word of God, as any may plainly see.  The Word of God also speaks of the Testimony of Jesus and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which includes prophets and prophecy.  People really have a misunderstanding of 'sola scriptura' in what it really entails.  It also includes the witness of Creation, the witness of History, the Witness of the Word, the Witness of His Messengers, the Witness of His Laws of Nature, the Laws of Morality, etc.  For the Word speaks about all of those within itself.

 

I can show you the science on meat, dairy, eggs, etc and the great increase of disease... from the medical journals and articles themselves.

 

If you want to speak about sister White, please begin a separate thread, I will come and discuss her with you there.

 

I have the answer to the food for worms vision from the Bible itself.  Let me know when you desire to read it.

 

"...Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper."

 

As for diet, God is not playing around on this one.

 

Go and read Hosea Chapter 4 please.  Please.  Especially see vs, 4:1-3 and study those words very carefully.  Then read also vs 6-7,10-12.  God hath given us a more sure word of Prophecy brother, let us take heed unto it.

 

It is too easy to give a one or two liner and not actually study it out brother.


Edited by banner over me was love, 05 February 2014 - 06:04 PM.


#78 DaveW

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:24 PM

There is no misunderstanding and no need for you to lie any further about it.

MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL IS NOT JESUS CHRIST.

If you wish to lower Jesus Christ to a created being under God (surprise surprise.....) then this displays yet another false doctrine of your false prophets that hold to.

#79 Ukulelemike

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 07:17 PM

Brother Ukulelemike,

 

I stand upon the Word of God, as any may plainly see.  The Word of God also speaks of the Testimony of Jesus and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which includes prophets and prophecy.  People really have a misunderstanding of 'sola scriptura' in what it really entails.  It also includes the witness of Creation, the witness of History, the Witness of the Word, the Witness of His Messengers, the Witness of His Laws of Nature, the Laws of Morality, etc.  For the Word speaks about all of those within itself. The Bible gives clear directions on how to tell a false prophet, one of which is a failed prophecy, or speaking in the name of the Lord when the Lord has not spoken. Mrs. White clearly falls into the category of false prophet for her prophecies that did not come to pass as she claimed.

 

I can show you the science on meat, dairy, eggs, etc and the great increase of disease... from the medical journals and articles themselves. And I can show you massive amounts of science countering that. Might want to read up on Weston Price and his findings.

 

If you want to speak about sister White, please begin a separate thread, I will come and discuss her with you there. We can do that. In fact, as I put this up I got to thinking that it ought to be a separate thread.

 

I have the answer to the food for worms vision from the Bible itself.  Let me know when you desire to read it. So the Bible verifies Ellen White's prophecy of those she spoke of at that particular meeting, that some would be food for worms, some wouold be taken up and some would suffer through the seven judgments? yes I'd like to see that.

 

"...Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper." White has proven to not be a prophet. because someone claims to be so doesn't make it so, merely upon strength of their word.

 

As for diet, God is not playing around on this one.

 

Go and read Hosea Chapter 4 please.  Please.  Especially see vs, 4:1-3 and study those words very carefully.  Then read also vs 6-7,10-12.  God hath given us a more sure word of Prophecy brother, let us take heed unto it.

 

It is too easy to give a one or two liner and not actually study it out brother.  What does this have to do with diet?

 

And so on.
Okay, what's your point you're making here? Israel rejected the Lord, the priests and prophets ceased to teach truth, and the Lord gave judgment against them. The people were destroyed for lack of knowledge and the nations would be judged. A great picture of modern-day, in fact, except that many ARE teaching truth, its just being rejected, while others teach lies in the name of the Lord, (the prophet shall also fall with thee in the night), and such was Ellen G. White. And sad to say, more flock to the lies than to the truth.
 
 

This has surely come true in the last days: truth is rejected and railed against, while false prophets speak smooth words and fables to scratch the ears of the people, to keep them sleeping. I highly recommend you seek after the truth, and stop following so-called prophets who didn't even follow their own prophecies at times. You seem a decent fellow, I'd like to call you brother.



#80 DaveW

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 07:22 PM

I would like to request that these videos and if possible the ability for this false teacher to post such links and material to this site be removed.

He quite clearly is not here to learn from us - his intent is to try to lead astray those that are weak in the faith.

My concern is not for the members as such, as I believe that most are well aware of what his intent is, but for casual readers who may watch these evil misrepresentations and be deceived into thinking that IFB condone such.




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