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Balancing The Christian Life


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#141 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:00 AM

Are you serious?? Their wondering in the desert was a judgment against them, God took away their alcohol because of their hard hearts. You think if they didn't drink for 40 years, God would have gave them an "atta boy"?

 Look, Im going to start a thread here soon, when I have time, and I will lay out my view on this and we can stop hijacking GS thread. Sorry bro!, again!

My friend I am not against you exercising your Liberty to drink. 

 

And regardless if they were in wandering for their unbelief the example of scripture types can be applied to our lives. 

 

And my post was about Christian lifestyle or living in and amongst the unsaved and the saved and in this area we should be an ensample to them and not give offences or an occasion to stumble.  If you want your life style to reflect the world than ok but we are told not to be like the world.


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 29 January 2014 - 02:58 PM.


#142 Jeffrey

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:00 AM

Jeffrey, I am in the process of re-reading some material based on the different types of wine in the Bible.  I will be gone all day, and be at church tonight, but I will post my findings tomorrow.  It is a very interesting study that I did many years ago.

Ok, remember, read the Bible says, not what you were taught or what you think. When I was still in the IFB community, and I held my previous position, I remember somebody told me "You are more influenced over your culture than the Word of God", He was right.



#143 candlelight

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:04 AM

Ok, remember, read the Bible says, not what you were taught or what you think. When I was still in the IFB community, and I held my previous position, I remember somebody told me "You are more influenced over your culture than the Word of God", He was right.

 

This study has nothing to do with culture, Jeffrey.  It is a Biblical study that I did years ago, that talks about the different types of wine in scripture.  Not all wine was alcoholic.

I will look for your thread tomorrow on this topic.  :)



#144 TheSword

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:33 AM

The Biblical standard is not to get drunk.  To abstain or not abstain is an individual's choice.  For me, I leave it alone, but I'm not going to tell someone who chooses to have a glass of wine with their dinner or have a dose of it in cough medicine that they're going to descend into the gutter.

 

This is where we simply disagree on the interpretation of the standard, likely due to the scope of Biblical material in consideration in this case (we can discuss the interpretation elsewhere as you've repeatedly asked). That you do not agree with my interpretation does not make it legalistic to tell people that Christians should not do X when the subject arises. I agree that we shouldn't be hasseling people who fail to meet the standard and tell them that they'll "descend into the gutter," as you put it. That would be rather unkind and unloving. Certainly failing to meet one standard or another does not negate a person's saving faith and security of salvation because no one will ever live up to all standards in this age. However,it is equally unkind and unloving not to tell a Christian they should or should not do something if they understand the Bible to say the same. In fact, I think it's rather selfish and unloving not to tell someone how to emulate and best represent Christ according to Biblical principles because it says a person values someone else's opinion of them more than he/she value's the other person's relationship with God.

 

It's incumbent upon all Christians to exhort one another to righteousness (Heb 10:25), which is the essence of a standard. If we can't or don't exhort Christians to God's standards according to Biblical principles then we are essentially saying that everyone's interpretation is fine and they should behave according to their own conscience. However, this is how the Israelites lived in the time of the Judges and that didn't go so well for them (Judges 17:6, 21:25).

 

To repeat what I said earlier in another way; a Biblical standard is a guide post for a Christ-honoring life, not a stick to beat people into submission.



#145 candlelight

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:56 AM

Amen, Sword!  Well said, brother:)



#146 GraceSaved

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 10:39 AM

This is in line with the Christian life and not a argument against drinking alcoholic beverages.  Your whole post here is an argument about alcohol. 

 

The only Christians I have known that bring up the issues of Legalism almost always are the ones who have a conviction that it is ok to drink alcoholic beverages.  I initiated this topic with no intentions of discussing alcohol and respectfully asked that the topic be brought up on another thread.

 

This now brings my survey to 100% of those who think it is ok to drink alcohol as a Christian bring up issues of legalism.  Alcohol.

 

Most of the verse come from the OT concerning Israel not one of the Christians that feel it is ok to drink alcohol are Jewish.  But I will remind anyone as a Christian if they want to use the OT to justify their alcohol drinking.  Alcohol.

 

We are told (Duet 29:6) that when Israel was in the wilderness 40 years they did not drink wine or strong drink.  We too as Christians, with the sacrifice of Christ upon us daily, and we have been brought out of Egypt (a type of world), and are in a wandering place not of this world but waiting for God to bring us into our new home in heaven.  Should we not like Israel in her wanderings not drink wine or strong drink?  Again, alcohol.

 

And we are told no longer to walk as the unsaved (the Gentiles) walk (Eph 4:17).  Even the unsaved doctors say it is ok to drink one glass of beer or wine daily for ones heart or health.  But again that is a way of the Gentiles we are not to walk in.  More alcohol.

 

While I agree that drunkenness is sin and not the drinking of alcohol but where does one draw the line?  For one a glass is already made them drunk and to another it may take five or six.  So where is the line drawn?  Alcohol.

 

I will give some examples as I am sure many here have witnessed.

 

A Christian brother (a Baptist) who names the Lord walks into a restaurant that has a bar walked up to the bar and ordered a beer.  (Alcohol) He believes he has the liberty to drink beer or wine.  He turns and sees another brother eating dinner with his family they don't exercise this same liberty as he.  He walks over to this other brother and his family and starts up a conversation about ministry and how it is going.  This brother and his family are deeply offended at this.  Not to mention the looks from the people who were not saved listening to this supposed born of the Spirit Christian drinking beer and bragging about his ministry.  His excuse was the day was tough and he was waiting for some repair on his vehicle and decided to relax and have a beer.  You see he needed the beer to help him with his tough day and attitude not God.

 

Another Christian brother (a Baptist) who was teaching pastors in theology who felt we have the liberty to drink beer and string drink.  During his course of teaching these men also taught them it was ok and that they have the liberty to drink beer and strong drink as long as they did not get drunk.  One day he invited them (just the men) over to his home for dinner and gave them all a beer to drink.  He opened his and drank and soon after all of them were drinking beer.  Many of these pastors later backslid into drunkenness and their testimony and ministry was ruined.  All because of Christian Liberty.  BTW, this supposed Baptist came from a Roman Catholic Priesthood. Alcohol

 

And lastly,

 

A Young girl under the drinking age limit was living in another Christian's home (a Baptist) and they drank wine sometimes three times a day with meals and before bed.  One time at the dinner table they mixed wine for them all to drink with dinner. This young girl refused to drink the wine mixture and they began to chide her.  Out of embarrassment she took a sip and immediately she was convicted it was wrong by the Holy Ghost and felt she lost her spirituality she had previously.  She left that very evening and went to her pastor and told her what took place and he helped her through her spiritual dilemma.  However once contacted the Brother who gave the wine to this under aged girl refused to come to talk to the pastor and left the church and went to attend another church.   the young girl and the pastor were both offended. Alcohol

 

I choose not to drink for I have the Holy Ghost and do not want to replace Him with another spirit.  why do you think they call alcoholic beverages spirits?  Alcohol

 

Jesus warned those whom through offences come and that there need be of offences.

 

 Matt 18:7 ¶ Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Lu 17:1-3 ¶ Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!   It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.  Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

 Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
 Rom 16:17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

 

The whole church is to mark these that cause offences whether to the saved or unsaved but so much more to the saved, and remove them from fellowship and avoid them and their offensive liberties.

 

Moreover we do not see Paul ever drinking wine in the Bible and he should be our ensample/example we are told to mark and follow.  Alcohol

 

 Php 3:17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
 2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

 

Being an ensample to others on chaste and charitable living is our duty that others may follow after our good ensamples.

 

Go ahead use your liberty but if it offend your brother then it is no longer a liberty but a stumblingblock.

 

 1Cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
 Gal 5:13 ¶ For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Please discuss in another thread.



#147 HappyChristian

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:00 AM

Okay - it's been asked, and asked again...and again...I realize that alcohol would fall under the topic of balance in the Christian life.  But. The originator of the this thread has asked more than once to not turn this thread into a discussion on alcohol.  As he stated, many people are very passionate about whichever way they lean, and so the very thought behind this thread will be lost if it continues in this direction.  Jeffery has said he will start a thread detailing his thoughts about it. Now we need to wait til he does (if he hasn't already - this is the first thread I've seen this morning).  And then respond.  Keep alcohol out of this thread from here on. Thank you (although I just couldn't resist this: see how much trouble alcohol causes. :smug: ).



#148 Salyan

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:06 AM

Happy Christian beat me to the punch!  :boxing:

 

I'd like to add that some of the attitudes displayed on this thread are neither kind nor Christ-like. Disagreements are fine, but the personal and ad hominem attacks need to stop. Just because someone gets a different interpretation than yourself from the Scriptures do not mean that they do not read the Scriptures.



#149 GraceSaved

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:10 AM

This is where we simply disagree on the interpretation of the standard, likely due to the scope of Biblical material in consideration in this case (we can discuss the interpretation elsewhere as you've repeatedly asked). That you do not agree with my interpretation does not make it legalistic to tell people that Christians should not do X when the subject arises. I agree that we shouldn't be hasseling people who fail to meet the standard and tell them that they'll "descend into the gutter," as you put it. That would be rather unkind and unloving. Certainly failing to meet one standard or another does not negate a person's saving faith and security of salvation because no one will ever live up to all standards in this age. However,it is equally unkind and unloving not to tell a Christian they should or should not do something if they understand the Bible to say the same. In fact, I think it's rather selfish and unloving not to tell someone how to emulate and best represent Christ according to Biblical principles because it says a person values someone else's opinion of them more than he/she value's the other person's relationship with God.

 

It's incumbent upon all Christians to exhort one another to righteousness (Heb 10:25), which is the essence of a standard. If we can't or don't exhort Christians to God's standards according to Biblical principles then we are essentially saying that everyone's interpretation is fine and they should behave according to their own conscience. However, this is how the Israelites lived in the time of the Judges and that didn't go so well for them (Judges 17:6, 21:25).

 

To repeat what I said earlier in another way; a Biblical standard is a guide post for a Christ-honoring life, not a stick to beat people into submission.

It's not legalism to disagree.  I don't drink so it's not really an issue for me and don't feel it necessary to discuss in length.  For those who want to can.  How far do we go on a forum to exhort without truly knowing one another or having a personal relationship and not knowing each other's histories and backgrounds before it really ends up becoming who's right and who's wrong?



#150 Alimantado

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:41 AM

I look forward to your explanation brother Carl.

 

Hi AVBB, very sorry for not attending to this yet. I've been getting back so late from work I've just been going to bed! It's definitely something I would like to do, though, as I think there's a good discussion to be had about it and so I will as soon as I can. If the thread gets locked in the meantime because of excessive alcohol-related discussion, I'll start a new one!



#151 TheSword

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:45 AM

It's not legalism to disagree.  I don't drink so it's not really an issue for me and don't feel it necessary to discuss in length.  For those who want to can.  How far do we go on a forum to exhort without truly knowing one another or having a personal relationship and not knowing each other's histories and backgrounds before it really ends up becoming who's right and who's wrong?

 

Nothing I said should be construed as talking about alcohol specifically (like you I don't really want to get into that on this thread) but applies to the topic of standards vs. legalism generally. When talking about biblical principles and standards I think a person's history or background is largely irrelevant. If a principle is truly biblical it transcends all history and culture and thus applies to every one for all time because they are rooted in the character/nature of God.  The reason (at least my reason) for discussing them on a forum such as this is to truly investigate the interpretation to see if it stands or falls when analyzed by other people.



#152 GraceSaved

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:39 PM

Nothing I said should be construed as talking about alcohol specifically (like you I don't really want to get into that on this thread) but applies to the topic of standards vs. legalism generally. When talking about biblical principles and standards I think a person's history or background is largely irrelevant. If a principle is truly biblical it transcends all history and culture and thus applies to every one for all time because they are rooted in the character/nature of God.  The reason (at least my reason) for discussing them on a forum such as this is to truly investigate the interpretation to see if it stands or falls when analyzed by other people.

I agree.  Christians should go against their culture in obedience to God's word.  That's why we are called a peculiar people. However, when discussing topics on a forum where there may be disagreements, even here we need to use Biblical standards and principles.  My point is, how do you keep a discussion from turning into an argument?  I brought up history and background because we don't know the level of someone's faith or how close their walk is, where they came from, why they believe the way they do and because of the way this thread started to go and it seemed there was correcting rather than discussion and moderators had to intervene with the way people were talking to each other.  

 

Why do people join forums?  To gain insight, differing opinions, suggestions, fellowship?  These are some of my reasons.  I personally didn't come here to be corrected by people I don't know.  There is a Biblical procedure for that and not sure it can be done on a forum.  Go to that person alone, then with one or more witnesses...and you know the rest.



#153 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 03:07 PM

A balanced Christian life/walk included how one witnesses or influences others with their Liberty that was the purpose of my post to Jeffery though the post had references to drinking the conclusion was about the Christian life/walk.  A Christian's lifestyle/walk choice in a gray area of Scripture is when one must at all costs walk in charity towards all men around them.  Not to walk charitable toward our fellow brethren is not living a balanced Christian life/walk.

 

No problem Carl take your time.


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 29 January 2014 - 03:17 PM.


#154 Galations 2:20

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 09:39 PM

Grace Saved:  what is righteous judgement as opposed to following the law and judging others against a law no man can keep?

 

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. 

 

 



#155 Galations 2:20

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 09:49 PM

Happy Christian beat me to the punch!  :boxing:

 

I'd like to add that some of the attitudes displayed on this thread are neither kind nor Christ-like. Disagreements are fine, but the personal and ad hominem attacks need to stop. Just because someone gets a different interpretation than yourself from the Scriptures do not mean that they do not read the Scriptures.

So right Salyan and Happy Christian:  Scripture is the Lord speaking.  Who is in a position to argue with Him??!!  Scriptures are TRUTH and have many applications for today.  Find a scripture verse applicable to what needs to be said and allow Him to speak, amen!

 

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 



#156 GraceSaved

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 10:57 PM

Grace Saved:  what is righteous judgement as opposed to following the law and judging others against a law no man can keep?

 

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. 

Righteous judgment is one who edifies.  People who judge by the law are fault-finders. If we find ourselves in a situation where judgment is demanded involving another Christian, we need to meet requirements.  We are to take the mote out of our own eye and consider our own faults before noting the faults of others.  We should not judge with a measure of judgment we would not want for ourselves.  Our judgment should not be based on our own standards or opinions but on the Word.  It should never be based on outward appearances.  It should be fair, done out of necessity and done with mercy. Also, our purpose should be to restore not just point out a fault.



#157 candlelight

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:00 AM

I learned, along time ago, that there is one interpretation for God's Word and that is God Himself.  However, there are many applications to scripture and that is where man comes into play.  In other words, God's Word is instruction on how to live a godly life.

Jeffrey, whenever you want to start a discussion on it, is fine with me.  No rush, brother.  I know you are working and have limited time.   :)


Edited by candlelight, 30 January 2014 - 08:00 AM.


#158 TheSword

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 10:03 AM

Righteous judgment is one who edifies.  

 

I agree with much of what follows, but exegetically this is only semi-correct. Literally rendered it comes out "the righteousness judging judge ye." In English syntax it would be "judge ye the righteousness judging." Still not great English yet, but what we see is that the righteousness is the subject of the judging and not the manner of it. In context of not judging merely outward appearance in the first part of the verse, this second half points out that what is on the inside (i.e. righteousness) is to be judged.

 

Matt's paraphrase - "Don't judge people based on appearance. Judge their righteousness." That is to say, determine whether their behavior or heart on the matter is right or wrong. Sometimes, though, that is expressed through outward appearance and a change in heart necessarily includes a change in appearance.

 

Certainly the exhortation or expression of that judgment should communicated in an edifying manner, but you have to get that truth from another passage. Strictly speaking, judging is an internal and non-expression action. Example: A person does, or wants to do something, contrary to biblical principle. I judge that behavior to be unbiblical or sinful indicating that the person's heart on the matter is not right. That's the entirety of what judgment is.

 

How I communicate that to the person is a completely different issue (and what I believe your post is getting at). After I've discerned the righteousness of the person's behavior, I should lovingly correct him/her with something like, "hey, I noticed X, you probably shouldn't do that because [insert biblical principle and Scripture]. I recommend Y. Please let me know if you want to look into it and I'll be happy to dive into the Bible with you and help you understand it." NOT "Hey! That's a sin you ungodly heathen! Don't ever do that!" The difference is judging with loving discernment and judging with condmenation. This is called exhortation.



#159 GraceSaved

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 11:37 AM

In short, our judgments should be consistent, not hypocritical.  With humility, not with superiority.  With facts, not assumptions.  With words or deeds, not with motive or intent.  Biblical issues, not personal preferences.  Sins, not sinners.  Temporal matters, not eternal matters (salvation).  I see this one a lot where Christians question another's salvation based on women wearing pants, music they listen to, the list goes on, etc.  Our goal should be to show Christ, not how good we are.






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