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#21 GraceSaved

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:51 AM

I haven't read that anyones said that Christian liberty means we can do as we please.  



#22 HappyChristian

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:52 AM

What am I doing LuAnne that is sinful , but right in my own eyes?

Did I say you?  I didn't say anyone in particular.  I quoted a verse from the Bible.  Considering that I don't know you in the least bit, I can't say what you are doing that is sinful yet right in your own eyes. I can surmise from things you say, but that doesn't really mean anything.

 

Christianity today is in that place, where every man is doing that which is right in their own eyes.  *shrugs* Even you say so, actually, when you say that "it's up to the individual..." claiming Rom. 14.  While I would agree that we all must come to the realization of what is right and what is wrong, there are biblical principles which are not wrong to teach others to follow.  And those principles cover a multitude of activities, thoughts, actions.  But too many people today say they don't have to follow them if they don't want to (or feel convicted, or led, or whatever terminology).

 

Don't be so quick to take something personal, unless it is actually obviously directed at you (as in, I say your name...). It was never meant that way.  :coffee2:



#23 Ukulelemike

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:13 PM

I haven't read that anyones said that Christian liberty means we can do as we please.  

Not really here, but more a general overview of modern American "Churchianity", with their brewery bible studies and Beer and Hymns get-togethers, and such things. "Christian" tattoos, and this sort of thing.



#24 DaveW

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 04:42 PM

Christian liberty is the freedom to do that which honours the Lord.

This something that is unique to the saved man.

#25 Jeffrey

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:57 PM

Jeffery, not arguing about it-its something each believer must decide on their own, though the advice and teaching of the word can certainly be a help.

 

One comment you made, "and some things we just cant get away from, we all dont live on a farm". Is that really a good excuse? "Sorry, Lord, I HAD to eat junk and damage the temple you placed me ini charge of, because I didn't live on a farm". There is more and more plenty of availability of better food choices, as well as great plans for small-area gardening. And maybe there is more availability to living on farms than we think, except sometimes we just don't want to give up the conveniences of city life, so we accept the necessary evils of it.

 

  Jesus said its not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out of him

 

However, my point was not just that-its the entire way of understanding Christian liberty, that it doesn't mean we do as we please, it means that even IN our liberties, we must be willing to consider where we must place our own boundaires on those liberties, and usually, those boundaires are from outside ourselves. Too often Christians are unwilling to do so.."Its MY liberty, MY freedom to do such and such". Great, but what about the God-given responsibilities we have to the glory of God and the edification of others and the expediencey of the gospel?  "Forget that! I'm gonna have a beer, cuz I have LIBERTY IN CHRIST!".

 

We can drink beer because it is permissible. (see Deut 14:26) The real reason fundamentalist don't like liberty is because they don't believe it. Fundamentalist think that fellow believers are looking for new ways to sin, when the fact is that we are free from man made laws as well

 

By the way, we had liberty to drink and smoke and cuss and get tattoos before we were saved. So what's the difference now?  Oh, well, now it won't send me to hell. Ah, so noew we do that which would send me to hell before I was saved, because I am safe now. Hm.

 

we can drink and smoke now if we want, and tats for that matter, we are no longer under the law, but Fundamentalist wishes we were


Edited by Jeffrey, 05 February 2014 - 11:58 PM.


#26 Jeffrey

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:59 PM

Christian liberty is the freedom to do that which honours the Lord.

This something that is unique to the saved man.

Did you notice the word lust in Deut 14:26



#27 Ukulelemike

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:05 AM

 

Jeffery, not arguing about it-its something each believer must decide on their own, though the advice and teaching of the word can certainly be a help.

 

One comment you made, "and some things we just cant get away from, we all dont live on a farm". Is that really a good excuse? "Sorry, Lord, I HAD to eat junk and damage the temple you placed me ini charge of, because I didn't live on a farm". There is more and more plenty of availability of better food choices, as well as great plans for small-area gardening. And maybe there is more availability to living on farms than we think, except sometimes we just don't want to give up the conveniences of city life, so we accept the necessary evils of it.

 

  Jesus said its not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out of him

 

However, my point was not just that-its the entire way of understanding Christian liberty, that it doesn't mean we do as we please, it means that even IN our liberties, we must be willing to consider where we must place our own boundaires on those liberties, and usually, those boundaires are from outside ourselves. Too often Christians are unwilling to do so.."Its MY liberty, MY freedom to do such and such". Great, but what about the God-given responsibilities we have to the glory of God and the edification of others and the expediencey of the gospel?  "Forget that! I'm gonna have a beer, cuz I have LIBERTY IN CHRIST!".

 

We can drink beer because it is permissible. (see Deut 14:26) The real reason fundamentalist don't like liberty is because they don't believe it. Fundamentalist think that fellow believers are looking for new ways to sin, when the fact is that we are free from man made laws as well

 

By the way, we had liberty to drink and smoke and cuss and get tattoos before we were saved. So what's the difference now?  Oh, well, now it won't send me to hell. Ah, so noew we do that which would send me to hell before I was saved, because I am safe now. Hm.

 

we can drink and smoke now if we want, and tats for that matter, we are no longer under the law, but Fundamentalist wishes we were

 

So your idea of liberty is to do all the things you were free to do unsaved? What ever happened to "be ye transformed"? How is that a 'new creature"? I guess your kind of liberty trumps that.  So meth, opium, heroin, they'er okay too, since the Bible doesn't condemn them? Smoke a little doobie, snack on some mushrooms, lick some toads, all part of liberty? where do you draw a line? Who is your liberty for, anyways? where do you draw a line? as  lomg as its the law of the land, its okay? So if pedophilia becomes lawful, since the Bible doesn't say a grown man can't marry a 12 year old, then its all cool, part of liberty?

 

 
"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."
 
 
"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not".

What do these verse mean to you?



#28 Jeffrey

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:10 AM

 

So your idea of liberty is to do all the things you were free to do unsaved? What ever happened to "be ye transformed"? How is that a 'new creature"? I guess your kind of liberty trumps that.  So meth, opium, heroin, they'er okay too, since the Bible doesn't condemn them? Smoke a little doobie, snack on some mushrooms, lick some toads, all part of liberty? where do you draw a line? Who is your liberty for, anyways? where do you draw a line?

theres a verse in Romans that talks about being transformed in your mind also, circumcision of the heart, sound familiar?? 

I dont smoke weed; I draw the line where the Bible does,...And for you to accuse me of doing drugs to get high is below, even the most fundy

 

You still haven't exegetied Deut 14:26 yet to prove me wrong

 


Edited by Jeffrey, 06 February 2014 - 12:12 AM.


#29 Ukulelemike

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:26 AM

 

 

So your idea of liberty is to do all the things you were free to do unsaved? What ever happened to "be ye transformed"? How is that a 'new creature"? I guess your kind of liberty trumps that.  So meth, opium, heroin, they'er okay too, since the Bible doesn't condemn them? Smoke a little doobie, snack on some mushrooms, lick some toads, all part of liberty? where do you draw a line? Who is your liberty for, anyways? where do you draw a line?

theres a verse in Romans that talks about being transformed in your mind also, circumcision of the heart, sound familiar?? 

I dont smoke weed; I draw the line where the Bible does,...And for you to accuse me of doing drugs to get high is below, even the most fundy

 

You still haven't exegetied Deut 14:26 yet to prove me wrong

 

 

So alcohol, which definitely alters the brain and damages udgment, is okay, but weed isn't?

 

Deut 14:26 is an aspect of the law, one of the tithes whch was taken and used for a big party. we, however are not Israel, not under the law, not under even this tithe. I see nothing remotely like this for believers. Rather we are called to be sober:

 

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you." (Titus 2:1-8)

 

This is all exactly the opposite of the idea of the drinking, partying, dancing, rock-n-roll 'christianity' that is so popular today. Yet Paul calls this 'sound doctrine'.

 

The Lord gave certain things to Israel that He doesn't give us, because of the hardness of their hearts-he allowed divorce for any reason, He allowed multiple wives, and He allowed them a day to party. They were not regenerated believers as we are, they were given allowances because they were hard-hearted,we are not supposed to be.

 

 

Christians are a priesthood of believers-as such, if we want to talk OT, consider that the priests weren't to drink wine nor strong drink, nor were kings or princes, because it perverts judgment. Apparently, as it is in the context, it had something to do with the sin of Nadab and Abihu, because just after their deaths, this command was given.

 

"Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses." Lev 10:9-11

 

How much less, then, shall we, who are ALWAYS to be about the Lord's work, always to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us, always to be instant in season and out of season, partake of that which deminishes the judgment?



#30 Jeffrey

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:06 AM

So alcohol, which definitely alters the brain and damages udgment, is okay, but weed isn't?  For medicinal use , I see no problem with it

 

Deut 14:26 is an aspect of the law, one of the tithes whch was taken and used for a big party. we, however are not Israel, not under the law, not under even this tithe. I see nothing remotely like this for believers. Rather we are called to be sober:

 

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you." (Titus 2:1-8)

 

Yet in Corinthians Paul tells them not to get drunk, but doesnt tell them to stop drinking,  And says elders are not to be given to much wine, and of course, Jesus made wine at a wedding and drank wine at the last supper and was accused of being a drunk in Luke, remember, the Son of Man come eating and drinking

 

This is all exactly the opposite of the idea of the drinking, partying, dancing, rock-n-roll 'christianity' that is so popular today. Yet Paul calls this 'sound doctrine'.Sound doctrine and rock and roll are two different things, FTR, i dont like RR during worship time

 

The Lord gave certain things to Israel that He doesn't give us, because of the hardness of their hearts-he allowed divorce for any reason, He allowed multiple wives, and He allowed them a day to party. They were not regenerated believers as we are, they were given allowances because they were hard-hearted,we are not supposed to be.

 

So God gives a blessing, then gives it away?? So would you tell a  woman in a marriage where her husband is abusing her and cheating on her to stay, that happens in church way more than drinking does, BTW we can still party, giving thanks to God

 

 

Christians are a priesthood of believers-as such, if we want to talk OT, consider that the priests weren't to drink wine nor strong drink, nor were kings or princes, because it perverts judgment. Apparently, as it is in the context, it had something to do with the sin of Nadab and Abihu, because just after their deaths, this command was given.

 

 "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses." Lev 10:9-11

 

you notice that bolded section, they were forbidden while on duty, theres a big difference

 

How much less, then, shall we, who are ALWAYS to be about the Lord's work, always to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us, always to be instant in season and out of season, partake of that which deminishes the judgment?

 

Having neighbors over for a meal, then a drink and cigar afterwards and giving them the gospel is doing the Lords work. 

 

You should study the Temperance Movement of the 1800's, Christians got swept up in morality thanks in part to Finney, that still lingers today. Issues based on morality and nothing that address's the heart issues of man,ore the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you know, the death,burial and His Resurrection that which is the central theme of the Gospel

 


Edited by Jeffrey, 06 February 2014 - 07:06 AM.


#31 1John2:15-17

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 08:08 AM

I just love the blasphemy and worldliness espoused by the "resident liberal."

#32 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 08:10 AM

"Having neighbors over for a meal, then a drink and a cigar afterwards and giving them the Gospel is doing the Lord's work."

Not so.  Light hath no fellowship with darkness.  You cannot be partakers of the Lord's table and drink from the devils cup.


1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

"Banquetings" is speaking of social drinking.  And God's Word reveals it to be something that should be in our past, nor our present lives.

Christians should not be advocating drinking alcohol.  Funny how they that do always try to justify it by saying they are giving the Gospel to that person.

Actually, it is sad.   We are in the world, yet not of the world.  We are not to act like the world to win the world.
 



#33 DaveW

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 08:36 AM

You keep saying that Jesus drank wine - the Bible is plain that he did.
What is not plain is whether or not it was alcoholic wine.

The context in certain places indicates that wine in the Bible was not always alcoholic.
Therefore to see the word wine doesn't automatically mean Jesus drank alcohol.

In fact, the context often indicates that the wine He drank was not alcohol, and other verses already shown show that to be a king (for instance) would make it very unlikely that he drank alcohol.

The weight of evidence would suggest that while wine can be alcoholic in the Bible, it is not always, and the best assumption is that because of His various offices Jesus drank no alcohol.

#34 Ukulelemike

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 09:18 AM

 

So alcohol, which definitely alters the brain and damages udgment, is okay, but weed isn't?  For medicinal use , I see no problem with it

But honestly, where is the difference? In fact, medically, alcohol is far worse for the body and brain that marijuana-its just a random distinction you have made to justify yourself in one 'liberty' as opposed to another.

 

Deut 14:26 is an aspect of the law, one of the tithes whch was taken and used for a big party. we, however are not Israel, not under the law, not under even this tithe. I see nothing remotely like this for believers. Rather we are called to be sober:

 

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you." (Titus 2:1-8)

 

Yet in Corinthians Paul tells them not to get drunk, but doesnt tell them to stop drinking,  And says elders are not to be given to much wine, and of course, Jesus made wine at a wedding and drank wine at the last supper and was accused of being a drunk in Luke, remember, the Son of Man come eating and drinking. But in Christ there is nothing that says that what He drank was alcoholic. Might want to do a study on what the word "wine" meant when the English was written. As well, it was the Pharisees who accused Him of being a wine bibber.

 

This is all exactly the opposite of the idea of the drinking, partying, dancing, rock-n-roll 'christianity' that is so popular today. Yet Paul calls this 'sound doctrine'.Sound doctrine and rock and roll are two different things, FTR, i dont like RR during worship time. But you still like it? Still listen to it?

 

The Lord gave certain things to Israel that He doesn't give us, because of the hardness of their hearts-he allowed divorce for any reason, He allowed multiple wives, and He allowed them a day to party. They were not regenerated believers as we are, they were given allowances because they were hard-hearted,we are not supposed to be.

 

So God gives a blessing, then gives it away?? So would you tell a  woman in a marriage where her husband is abusing her and cheating on her to stay, that happens in church way more than drinking does, BTW we can still party, giving thanks to God. If that's how you understand to be grave, sober minded, temperate, discreet and holy, okay then.

 

 

Christians are a priesthood of believers-as such, if we want to talk OT, consider that the priests weren't to drink wine nor strong drink, nor were kings or princes, because it perverts judgment. Apparently, as it is in the context, it had something to do with the sin of Nadab and Abihu, because just after their deaths, this command was given.

 

 "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses." Lev 10:9-11

 

you notice that bolded section, they were forbidden while on duty, theres a big difference  As believers, we are always in the work of, as it were, the tabernacle. IN fact, our bodies, BEING the tabernacle of the Holy Ghost, the literal dwelling place of the presence of God, as the Tabernacle and Temple were in the OT, would seem to argue against that. We are always on duty.

 

How much less, then, shall we, who are ALWAYS to be about the Lord's work, always to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us, always to be instant in season and out of season, partake of that which deminishes the judgment?

 

Having neighbors over for a meal, then a drink and cigar afterwards and giving them the gospel is doing the Lords work. I suspect, like myself, there are many who would not have gotten saved through such a testimony. Most unsaved people know it is wrong for Christians to drink, and would be offended by it. I know, because back in my silly youth, I drank and offended many who knew I professed to be a Christian. Its a major reason I stopped. Some were offended because I kept snakes as pets, so I stopped, so that I moght bring no offense to Jew or Gentile or the church of God. As the Bible tells me.

 

You should study the Temperance Movement of the 1800's, Christians got swept up in morality thanks in part to Finney, that still lingers today. Issues based on morality and nothing that address's the heart issues of man,ore the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you know, the death,burial and His Resurrection that which is the central theme of the Gospel

And a lot of people got saved, too, and left immoral lifestyles, and bars closed and drunks got sober. Gosh, what a terrible testimony. When BIlly Sunday swept through a town, you knew something happened.  Now our so-called revivals have no power, because as soon as they are through speaking of the Holy Spirit, they go our together and fill themselves with a different sort of spirits.  I know I won't change your mind, because you refuse to even acknowledge that our liberties have boundaries which are based, not on what I want, but on those around me, on edifying, on being under another power, on giving no offense, on glorifying God in your body and spirit. If you wish to glorify yourslef, go right ahead. But don't call it exercise of liberty, because its no such thing.

 

BY the way, even Charles Spurgeon, who smoked cigars mostly because of health issues, gave them up because he began to be associated with them by cigar companies and saw it would hurt the cause of Christ. He wanted to be known as a preacher of righteousness, not a smoker of such and such brand stogies.



#35 candlelight

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 09:20 AM

Jeffrey, you continue to bring up the subject of alcohol in each thread.  HC has asked that we stop discussing it in every thread.  I would suggest that you either start a thread on it or follow the one that  SFIC started the other day.  Just sayin'...



#36 candlelight

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 09:31 AM

Never mind, Jeffrey.  The thread was posted for IFB's.  I would appreciate it if you would post a thread on it, though.  You seem to know every scripture on it.  I have been waiting for you to start the topic for awhile now.  *sigh*  I will have no access to the internet for the majority of tomorrow, through the weekend, until Tuesday.  Even today I have to do my packing.

Sorry, Ukelelemike.  I didn't mean to step on your toes.  It just seems that the subject of alcohol comes up in every thread that Jeffrey participates in.  HC asked that he start a thread on it in the marijuana thread.  I am just following her lead.



#37 1John2:15-17

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 09:41 AM

BY the way, even Charles Spurgeon, who smoked cigars mostly because of health issues, gave them up because he began to be associated with them by cigar companies and saw it would hurt the cause of Christ. He wanted to be known as a preacher of righteousness, not a smoker of such and such brand stogies.

I'll be a little more blunt (as I've been told I usually am).

For a "christian" to have a drink and a smoke with a lost person hurts our testimony, and shows the lost that we are no different than they are, whereas we are supposed to be separate, supposed to be different. To engage in worldly sins and do the things that the lost do just shows the world that we are hypocritical in our actions when we are "professing" that we are saved and are "supposedly" different.

Same goes for attending rock concerts, getting tattoos, and so on.

A truly saved, separated Bible-believing Christian would strive NOT to be (and act) like the world.

Edited by 1John2:15-17, 06 February 2014 - 09:42 AM.


#38 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 09:44 AM

One of the Moderators can move my two threads on alcohol to an open Forum if they wish.



#39 candlelight

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 09:51 AM

One of the Moderators can move my two threads on alcohol to an open Forum if they wish.

 

I didn't know that SFIC.  Great idea!  Ukelelemike, would you please move SFIC's post to the main forum please?  I would love to get the discussion going.  Many threads get derailed and they are hard to follow, b/c this topic always comes up.   

 



#40 Ukulelemike

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 10:05 AM

Actually, with the particular thread here, I think it fits okay here, but let me see what I can do.






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