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From The Ukraine To War With Russia?


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#1 ThePilgrim

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:13 AM

People in the US seem to be ignoring what is going on around the borders of Russia.  They think the demonstrations and riots in the Ukraine are no big deal (just another riot).  What is really going on?

 

http://www.paulcraig...-craig-roberts/

 

God bless,

Larry



#2 John81

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:26 AM

Buchanan wrote about this recently as well. The American government and media blast Russia and Putin for things America is doing and then people wonder why so many people look down upon America.

 

There was a point after the Cold War ended when Russia stretched forth her hand in friendship and truly wanted a unity with America and the West. American presidents slapped their hand away and effectively kicked Russia while she was down by sticking their noses into the affairs of nations close to Russia and of no direct importance to America.

 

Had President Bush had his way, Ukraine would be a part of NATO which would instantly turn any confrontation between Russia and Ukraine into a treaty obligation of war on the part of America.

 

NATO was created to confront the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. The USSR and Warsaw Pact no longer exist. Why has NATO not been disbanded?

 

How would America react to Russian involvement in promoting unrest in Mexico or Canada that could lead to anti-American standings?

 

Why do American leaders continually kick at the Russian bear continually raising the risk of war over nothing worthy of American involvement?

 

Sadly, the same thing is going on in Asia where America still has outdated treaties obligating her to go to war over matters of no importance to America. Would it really benefit America to go to war with China over some rock outcroppings in the ocean near to China?

 

Unfortunately, American leaderships mishandling of foreign policy continues to raise the risk of serious war, perhaps even another World War, rather than promote peace and cooperation.



#3 swathdiver

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:06 PM

Russia is once again ruled by a tyrannical communist.  After the Cold War, President Clinton and his cronies raided that countries vast oil resources and other wealth for a time.  Putin is rebuilding a Communist utopia and the only way any socialist nation can survive is by devouring all the nations around it for it creates nothing save for misery and mass murder. 



#4 John81

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:16 PM

That's not really accurate. In some respects, if Putin were here he'd be called a conservative hero.

 

No doubt Putin is corrupt and still holds to some of his old thinking, he's not attempting to rebuild a communist empire. What Putin is doing is very much what America was doing in 1800s into the 1900s, and what all strong nations have done, and that is trying to gain a measure of control over  or influence with those nations nearest to them.

 

We can't just look at Ukraine and Russia through the eyes of modern history only and we can't just look at them from our greatly diminished American viewpoint.

 

Right or wrong, this is how nations operate and Russia has more business being concerned with what goes on in Ukraine than America does.

 

American leaders would do well to learn to stay out of many other nations things and tend to the mess that is America today. Otherwise, how long before America is internal turmoil and how long after that before outside powers begin figuring out ways to take advantage of a wrecked America?



#5 swathdiver

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:07 PM

That's not really accurate. In some respects, if Putin were here he'd be called a conservative hero.

 

I fail to see how; so how?

 

The Ukraine is an American ally, a republic that is infested with statists.  They, like America, should have never allowed them any political recognition or to assemble (except in jail).  America should support countries that desire independence and freedom from tyrants and those that honor God.  However, that America is long gone as she herself is ruled by Statists today.



#6 John81

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:23 PM

How is Ukraine an ally? What significance does Ukraine have to America? Why should America be more concerned with internal Ukrainian politics than their neighbors?

 

One of the problems with America is she left the original guiding principles of the Founders, which helped keep America out of foreign wars, out of complex problems in and between other countries, while maintaining open commerce, for the idea that America knows best and should tell the rest of the world how and what to do.

 

What's going on in Ukraine is an internal matter and American agitation for some and against others only serves to make matters worse. Let the Ukrainians sort out their own politics, internal disputes and foreign policy.

 

During the American "civil war" the Lincoln Administration worked overtime to keep the powers of their day from involving themselves in what was America business.

 

If we don't want other countries interfering in our internal affairs, we shouldn't be interfering in theirs.



#7 Invicta

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:59 PM

I fail to see how; so how?

 

The Ukraine is an American ally, a republic that is infested with statists.  They, like America, should have never allowed them any political recognition or to assemble (except in jail).  America should support countries that desire independence and freedom from tyrants and those that honor God.  However, that America is long gone as she herself is ruled by Statists today.

 

Are you suggesting that America is not a tyrant? 



#8 John81

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:06 PM

Most of the world views America as a bully.



#9 Invicta

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:10 PM

I think N Korea needs a bully, or two,   or three.



#10 John81

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:20 PM

Mostly ignoring them seems to be working pretty well. Eventually the North Korean system will collapse or they will remain a backwater propped up by China.



#11 ThePilgrim

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:27 PM

How many wars must a people be involved in before they tire of it?  I am not a pacifist.  I believe a nation should defend itself, but that is not what the leaders of this nation have been doing for the last 150 years.  In that time it has been one war after another and as far as I can discern by studying the history of our wars all of them were unnecessary.  From the War of Northern Agression or as some call it the Civil War (there is a misnomer.  No war is civil.) to the Afghanistan War . . . . none were necessary.  Lies, propaganda, and history written by fools to justify it.  How many men must be recruited and sent to die for nothing but the leaders avarice and greed?

 

I'm sorry for the rant.  Maybe I am just too old and tired to let myself be fooled anymore.  I have been in the past one who when listening to the governments reason for another war would say :lets go get em.  Those days are over.  The days when I could pray and ask God to bless America are no more.  Now I pray for God to slap our leaders up side the head and knock some sense into em.  :hide:

 

 

 

God bless,

Larry



#12 John81

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:08 AM

Along with this comes the fact we don't wage war in a manner that truly benefits us. We go to war, and instead of setting and achieving important goals and then getting out, we go in haphazardly and then hang around trying to turn the people there into Americans, we try to force American style democracy upon the leadership, we pour millions or billions of dollars down the drain in these countries, we rebuild their infrastructure and give them more money.

 

Then we drag our feet even once it's decided our troops should be pulled out. Rather than issuing orders for a pull out, years are spent negotiating (which basically means America tries to bribe those in power to do certain things our way in exchange for millions of dollars more) and then we can't seem to manage to take all the troops out.

 

It's no wonder the locals come to see the Americans as invaders and occupiers, even if they initially welcomed them, for we continually overstay our welcome.

 

Looking at the last several wars little was actually gained, most of the gains were very temporal, and at a huge cost in blood and treasure.

 

Meanwhile, we still have warhawks calling for American military action against Syria and Iran. Some want to go back into Iraq and are also fighting American troop withdrawal from Afghanistan. At the same time they want to promote a "get tough" policy towards Russia and China; which can only serve to once again push these two countries towards an alliance against us and possibly get us embroiled in a war that will not be nearly as "simple" as the last few wars.



#13 swathdiver

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 03:44 PM

When a small, free country becomes infested with Communists/Socialists/Statists/etc. it's impossible to weed them out without force.  They burrow in and establish themselves and attain political power through deception, force and foreign aid.

 

There would have been no Communist China, Communist Russia or Nazi Germany for example if it were not for American Democrats and liberals.

 

These same people mentioned above in America have learned to turn a battlefield victory into a political victory for our enemies.  The American Democrat Party does it every time, since nearly its inception.

 

Yes Larry, most of the wars this country fought were not necessary for her survival.  However, should American lives only be sent for such or could they be sent to help an ally?  

 

For example, if America were still guided by the Constitution and maybe more Christian, should she support Christian nations around the world who were being harmed by atheistic Communists?  I believe so. 



#14 John81

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:18 PM

According to the Founders, America should provide moral support to those in other nations as well as to certain other nations but should not become involved in their internal matters nor in their external wars. That founding principle is what kept America out of many wars prior to the end of the 19th century.

 

Christians are under the New Covenant which is directed at individual Christians and congregations; not nations. As individuals and congregations we are to spread the Gospel, make disciples and give whatever assistance we can to the poor, orphan, widows and such.

 

All systems of government and their leaders are godless and follow their father the devil. God never proclaimed democracy as a great government (and American's founders considered it the worst). Communism is more openly evil but we have no biblical mandate to try and change the world through war or to advocate for war against certain forms of government.

 

Scripture is very clear that if we do as commanded, we do right, so if we follow the commands given us in Christ, we do well.



#15 ThePilgrim

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:11 PM

According to the Founders, America should provide moral support to those in other nations as well as to certain other nations but should not become involved in their internal matters nor in their external wars. That founding principle is what kept America out of many wars prior to the end of the 19th century.

 

Christians are under the New Covenant which is directed at individual Christians and congregations; not nations. As individuals and congregations we are to spread the Gospel, make disciples and give whatever assistance we can to the poor, orphan, widows and such.

 

All systems of government and their leaders are godless and follow their father the devil. God never proclaimed democracy as a great government (and American's founders considered it the worst). Communism is more openly evil but we have no biblical mandate to try and change the world through war or to advocate for war against certain forms of government.

 

Scripture is very clear that if we do as commanded, we do right, so if we follow the commands given us in Christ, we do well.

I don't think I can offer a better written answer to Swathdivers question about helping other nation than the above.  Well said!

 

God bless,

Larry



#16 swathdiver

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:42 PM

I agree with much of what you've said, a democracy is deceptively evil as it always ends in bloodshed and mob rule.



#17 HappyChristian

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:50 PM

All systems of government are godless?  Follow their father the devil.  Hmmmm  - so, in Romans 13, when God commands us to be subject to government (never specifying the form, but rather having government) He was telling us to be subject to the devil?  Something God ordained?  I don't think so.....

 

But I do agree: our Constitution prevents us from policing the world.  The feds don't have the authority constitutionally to send our soldiers anywhere there is not a specific American interest.  And interest isn't simply policing.  Although there are a number of American interests (and, no, I'm not talking oil) for some of the wars we've been in. But not all.



#18 swathdiver

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:47 AM

Are you suggesting that America is not a tyrant? 

 

At this late hour I cannot think of any situations.  Which are you thinking about?



#19 John81

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:45 AM

The Founders considered England to be a tyrant for exceedingly far less things than what is done to American citizens by our own government.

 

Police given authority to conduct "no knock" home invasions. The police being turned into para-military. The use of the military on American soil against American citizens. More people in prison than any other nation. Government controls, regulations, laws over most aspects of our lives. Law enforcement having a green light to lie and use deception when speaking to us but even a slip of the tongue by us can be called a lie which for us is illegal. The trampling of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Etc.

 

Then around the world America is seen as a hypocritical bully. America attempts to tell other nations how they must live. The she punishes nations for doing what she herself does. American forces operate inside other nations without permission. America operatives work to bring down certain world leaders and raise up others. America uses bribes to get her way. Etc.

 

I'm certainly not saying this is anything unique to America. Every country of power has or does the same to one extent or another.



#20 Invicta

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:41 PM

There seems to be some hope of a settlement.  However if the situation gets much worse, Russia would probably be forced to intervene.  In the east of the country there are many Russian speakers who would rather have union with Russia than the EU.  If she intervenes it would probably be to protect the Russian speakers in the East as she did in Armenia several years ago.  US did not intervene then and would be unlikely to now. The result would probably be two Ukraines, one united with Russia and the other with the 4th Reich (the EU) 






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