From The Ukraine To War With Russia?

109 posts in this topic

Posted

People in the US seem to be ignoring what is going on around the borders of Russia.  They think the demonstrations and riots in the Ukraine are no big deal (just another riot).  What is really going on?

 

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/17/us-eu-paying-ukrainian-rioters-protesters-paul-craig-roberts/

 

God bless,

Larry

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Posted

Buchanan wrote about this recently as well. The American government and media blast Russia and Putin for things America is doing and then people wonder why so many people look down upon America.

 

There was a point after the Cold War ended when Russia stretched forth her hand in friendship and truly wanted a unity with America and the West. American presidents slapped their hand away and effectively kicked Russia while she was down by sticking their noses into the affairs of nations close to Russia and of no direct importance to America.

 

Had President Bush had his way, Ukraine would be a part of NATO which would instantly turn any confrontation between Russia and Ukraine into a treaty obligation of war on the part of America.

 

NATO was created to confront the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. The USSR and Warsaw Pact no longer exist. Why has NATO not been disbanded?

 

How would America react to Russian involvement in promoting unrest in Mexico or Canada that could lead to anti-American standings?

 

Why do American leaders continually kick at the Russian bear continually raising the risk of war over nothing worthy of American involvement?

 

Sadly, the same thing is going on in Asia where America still has outdated treaties obligating her to go to war over matters of no importance to America. Would it really benefit America to go to war with China over some rock outcroppings in the ocean near to China?

 

Unfortunately, American leaderships mishandling of foreign policy continues to raise the risk of serious war, perhaps even another World War, rather than promote peace and cooperation.

Covenanter likes this

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Posted

Russia is once again ruled by a tyrannical communist.  After the Cold War, President Clinton and his cronies raided that countries vast oil resources and other wealth for a time.  Putin is rebuilding a Communist utopia and the only way any socialist nation can survive is by devouring all the nations around it for it creates nothing save for misery and mass murder. 

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Posted

That's not really accurate. In some respects, if Putin were here he'd be called a conservative hero.

 

No doubt Putin is corrupt and still holds to some of his old thinking, he's not attempting to rebuild a communist empire. What Putin is doing is very much what America was doing in 1800s into the 1900s, and what all strong nations have done, and that is trying to gain a measure of control over  or influence with those nations nearest to them.

 

We can't just look at Ukraine and Russia through the eyes of modern history only and we can't just look at them from our greatly diminished American viewpoint.

 

Right or wrong, this is how nations operate and Russia has more business being concerned with what goes on in Ukraine than America does.

 

American leaders would do well to learn to stay out of many other nations things and tend to the mess that is America today. Otherwise, how long before America is internal turmoil and how long after that before outside powers begin figuring out ways to take advantage of a wrecked America?

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Posted

That's not really accurate. In some respects, if Putin were here he'd be called a conservative hero.

 

I fail to see how; so how?

 

The Ukraine is an American ally, a republic that is infested with statists.  They, like America, should have never allowed them any political recognition or to assemble (except in jail).  America should support countries that desire independence and freedom from tyrants and those that honor God.  However, that America is long gone as she herself is ruled by Statists today.

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Posted

How is Ukraine an ally? What significance does Ukraine have to America? Why should America be more concerned with internal Ukrainian politics than their neighbors?

 

One of the problems with America is she left the original guiding principles of the Founders, which helped keep America out of foreign wars, out of complex problems in and between other countries, while maintaining open commerce, for the idea that America knows best and should tell the rest of the world how and what to do.

 

What's going on in Ukraine is an internal matter and American agitation for some and against others only serves to make matters worse. Let the Ukrainians sort out their own politics, internal disputes and foreign policy.

 

During the American "civil war" the Lincoln Administration worked overtime to keep the powers of their day from involving themselves in what was America business.

 

If we don't want other countries interfering in our internal affairs, we shouldn't be interfering in theirs.

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Posted

I fail to see how; so how?

 

The Ukraine is an American ally, a republic that is infested with statists.  They, like America, should have never allowed them any political recognition or to assemble (except in jail).  America should support countries that desire independence and freedom from tyrants and those that honor God.  However, that America is long gone as she herself is ruled by Statists today.

 

Are you suggesting that America is not a tyrant? 

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Posted

Most of the world views America as a bully.

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Posted

I think N Korea needs a bully, or two,   or three.

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Posted

Mostly ignoring them seems to be working pretty well. Eventually the North Korean system will collapse or they will remain a backwater propped up by China.

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Posted

How many wars must a people be involved in before they tire of it?  I am not a pacifist.  I believe a nation should defend itself, but that is not what the leaders of this nation have been doing for the last 150 years.  In that time it has been one war after another and as far as I can discern by studying the history of our wars all of them were unnecessary.  From the War of Northern Agression or as some call it the Civil War (there is a misnomer.  No war is civil.) to the Afghanistan War . . . . none were necessary.  Lies, propaganda, and history written by fools to justify it.  How many men must be recruited and sent to die for nothing but the leaders avarice and greed?

 

I'm sorry for the rant.  Maybe I am just too old and tired to let myself be fooled anymore.  I have been in the past one who when listening to the governments reason for another war would say :lets go get em.  Those days are over.  The days when I could pray and ask God to bless America are no more.  Now I pray for God to slap our leaders up side the head and knock some sense into em.  :hide:

 

 

 

God bless,

Larry

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Posted

Along with this comes the fact we don't wage war in a manner that truly benefits us. We go to war, and instead of setting and achieving important goals and then getting out, we go in haphazardly and then hang around trying to turn the people there into Americans, we try to force American style democracy upon the leadership, we pour millions or billions of dollars down the drain in these countries, we rebuild their infrastructure and give them more money.

 

Then we drag our feet even once it's decided our troops should be pulled out. Rather than issuing orders for a pull out, years are spent negotiating (which basically means America tries to bribe those in power to do certain things our way in exchange for millions of dollars more) and then we can't seem to manage to take all the troops out.

 

It's no wonder the locals come to see the Americans as invaders and occupiers, even if they initially welcomed them, for we continually overstay our welcome.

 

Looking at the last several wars little was actually gained, most of the gains were very temporal, and at a huge cost in blood and treasure.

 

Meanwhile, we still have warhawks calling for American military action against Syria and Iran. Some want to go back into Iraq and are also fighting American troop withdrawal from Afghanistan. At the same time they want to promote a "get tough" policy towards Russia and China; which can only serve to once again push these two countries towards an alliance against us and possibly get us embroiled in a war that will not be nearly as "simple" as the last few wars.

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Posted

When a small, free country becomes infested with Communists/Socialists/Statists/etc. it's impossible to weed them out without force.  They burrow in and establish themselves and attain political power through deception, force and foreign aid.

 

There would have been no Communist China, Communist Russia or Nazi Germany for example if it were not for American Democrats and liberals.

 

These same people mentioned above in America have learned to turn a battlefield victory into a political victory for our enemies.  The American Democrat Party does it every time, since nearly its inception.

 

Yes Larry, most of the wars this country fought were not necessary for her survival.  However, should American lives only be sent for such or could they be sent to help an ally?  

 

For example, if America were still guided by the Constitution and maybe more Christian, should she support Christian nations around the world who were being harmed by atheistic Communists?  I believe so. 

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Posted

According to the Founders, America should provide moral support to those in other nations as well as to certain other nations but should not become involved in their internal matters nor in their external wars. That founding principle is what kept America out of many wars prior to the end of the 19th century.

 

Christians are under the New Covenant which is directed at individual Christians and congregations; not nations. As individuals and congregations we are to spread the Gospel, make disciples and give whatever assistance we can to the poor, orphan, widows and such.

 

All systems of government and their leaders are godless and follow their father the devil. God never proclaimed democracy as a great government (and American's founders considered it the worst). Communism is more openly evil but we have no biblical mandate to try and change the world through war or to advocate for war against certain forms of government.

 

Scripture is very clear that if we do as commanded, we do right, so if we follow the commands given us in Christ, we do well.

EKSmith, ThePilgrim and swathdiver like this

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Posted

According to the Founders, America should provide moral support to those in other nations as well as to certain other nations but should not become involved in their internal matters nor in their external wars. That founding principle is what kept America out of many wars prior to the end of the 19th century.

 

Christians are under the New Covenant which is directed at individual Christians and congregations; not nations. As individuals and congregations we are to spread the Gospel, make disciples and give whatever assistance we can to the poor, orphan, widows and such.

 

All systems of government and their leaders are godless and follow their father the devil. God never proclaimed democracy as a great government (and American's founders considered it the worst). Communism is more openly evil but we have no biblical mandate to try and change the world through war or to advocate for war against certain forms of government.

 

Scripture is very clear that if we do as commanded, we do right, so if we follow the commands given us in Christ, we do well.

I don't think I can offer a better written answer to Swathdivers question about helping other nation than the above.  Well said!

 

God bless,

Larry

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Posted

I agree with much of what you've said, a democracy is deceptively evil as it always ends in bloodshed and mob rule.

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Posted

All systems of government are godless?  Follow their father the devil.  Hmmmm  - so, in Romans 13, when God commands us to be subject to government (never specifying the form, but rather having government) He was telling us to be subject to the devil?  Something God ordained?  I don't think so.....

 

But I do agree: our Constitution prevents us from policing the world.  The feds don't have the authority constitutionally to send our soldiers anywhere there is not a specific American interest.  And interest isn't simply policing.  Although there are a number of American interests (and, no, I'm not talking oil) for some of the wars we've been in. But not all.

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Posted

Are you suggesting that America is not a tyrant? 

 

At this late hour I cannot think of any situations.  Which are you thinking about?

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Posted

The Founders considered England to be a tyrant for exceedingly far less things than what is done to American citizens by our own government.

 

Police given authority to conduct "no knock" home invasions. The police being turned into para-military. The use of the military on American soil against American citizens. More people in prison than any other nation. Government controls, regulations, laws over most aspects of our lives. Law enforcement having a green light to lie and use deception when speaking to us but even a slip of the tongue by us can be called a lie which for us is illegal. The trampling of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Etc.

 

Then around the world America is seen as a hypocritical bully. America attempts to tell other nations how they must live. The she punishes nations for doing what she herself does. American forces operate inside other nations without permission. America operatives work to bring down certain world leaders and raise up others. America uses bribes to get her way. Etc.

 

I'm certainly not saying this is anything unique to America. Every country of power has or does the same to one extent or another.

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Posted

There seems to be some hope of a settlement.  However if the situation gets much worse, Russia would probably be forced to intervene.  In the east of the country there are many Russian speakers who would rather have union with Russia than the EU.  If she intervenes it would probably be to protect the Russian speakers in the East as she did in Armenia several years ago.  US did not intervene then and would be unlikely to now. The result would probably be two Ukraines, one united with Russia and the other with the 4th Reich (the EU) 

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Posted

However if the situation gets much worse, Russia would probably be forced to intervene.  

 

The Russians are behind this all the way!  They're masters of deceit.

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Posted

The Russians are behind this all the way!  What does all the way mean?  Does it mean they are the only one with there noses stuck in this dispute?  They're masters of deceit. Yes, true.  However they are not the only masters of deceit.

 

I suppose you are aware of the Monroe Doctrine.  Is it surprising that the Russians would also have such a doctrine?

 

God bless,

Larry

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Posted

The Russians are no more masters of deceit than any other godless government.

 

We have to keep in mind Russia and Ukraine are neighbors and a large percentage of the Ukrainian population is Russian.

 

These two nations have a very long and entangled history and what effects one effects the other.

 

It would be a bigger surprise if Russia were not trying to do something to effect the outcome in their favor. The bigger question is why American agents are stirring the pot there.

 

The American president can't even take care of America yet he keeps making speeches telling those in Ukraine, Syria, and several other nations how they must act or he will make sure they pay some sort of consequences.

 

Meanwhile the Russian president is actually trying to put forth efforts that he sees as beneficial to Russians. He's trying to help Russians in Ukraine, trying to make sure their important neighbor remains and asset and doesn't become a problem, he's put in place laws to shut down pro-homosexual propaganda, laws to keep children out of the hands of homosexuals, stood behind a long time Russian ally even when it could have been very costly to do so, etc.

 

No, this isn't calling Putin a great guy or Russia  great country, just showing the contrast between a nations leader actually working towards the goal of improving and protecting his nation and an American president who allows the Mexican government to flaunt American laws, help illegals come into America, harbors fugitives from American justice, and allows lawlessness to impact America. All this while placing laws in effect that have severely hurt our coal industry, refusing to approve the keystone pipeline which would greatly benefit the country in terms of energy and jobs, endorsing full acceptance of homosexuality, even granting homosexual "couples" full federal benefits that heterosexual married couples receive, fomenting racial tensions, etc.

 

At this point, what goes on between the Russians and Ukrainians shouldn't be a major concern for America.

 

If America doesn't tend to her internal affairs, and do so quickly and in what would seem radical ways, the fall of America will be soon and devastating.

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Posted (edited)

Britain. Russia, France The Ottoman Turks and the Kingdom of Sardia all intervened in that area during the Crimean War 1853-1856.

 

  • The last survivor of the Crimean War was Timothy the Tortoise. Timothy was actually a female tortoise and she died in 2004 (aged about 165). She was ship’s mascot on the HMS Queen which took part in the bombardment of Sevastopol.

     

     

Edited by Invicta
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Posted

The Russians under Putin are the driving force behind this revolution.  They've also set themselves up as the men on white horses who could ride in and save the day; using all the nice things John said about them to cement their victory.  I would imagine that the American Democrats are also working to throw off the Ukrainian government and either support Putin or maybe their own guy.  History shows they always support the murderous tyrants, not the freedom loving patriots.

 

Don't forget the history is right.  The Russians murdered half the population before WW2, the Nazis murdered untold millions more during WW2 and then those people were swallowed up behind the Iron Curtain after WW2 where more blood letting continued for decades.  Their taste of freedom didn't even last twenty years.

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