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From The Ukraine To War With Russia?


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#81 Invicta

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 07:42 PM

I suppose that Russia has as much right to Crimea as China has to Tibet or US to Hawaii 


Edited by Invicta, 22 March 2014 - 04:41 PM.


#82 John81

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 08:01 PM

I was listening to John Kerry talk about this the other day and he carried on about how this sort of thing shouldn't happen in the 21st century.

 

It might be the 21st century, but man and nations are still as they have always been.

 

How quickly we forget, or conveniently don't discuss, how every major nation came to be a major nation. It wasn't by playing nice and talking things over; it was through brute force, coercion and often any means necessary.

 

The same way Rome grew and gained power is the same way others did before them and since them. China, Russia, Great Britain, America, Spain, France, Persia and scores of other nations all once practiced this or still do.

 

How did Great Britain become "great" and stride the world? How did America do so?

 

America and the EU played a dangerous game of subversion by aiding and fomenting political unrest in Ukraine with the intent of seeing the legally elected government toppled and a pro-West government take its place. They failed. Not only did they fail, they brought about much broader unrest and as they tried to decide what to do then, the Russians took action to secure their only warm water naval base.

 

America and the EU should have dealt with the matter quietly through diplomatic channels; accepting the fact they greatly blundered and it backfired; rather than making this a public war of words and threats, which has grown into a limited economic war, with now more threats of greater economic war and even a possible new cold war.

 

Were the American naval base in Cuba threatened, America would take whatever action they deemed necessary to secure that base regardless of what the rest of the world thought.

 

Crimea is basically Russian anyway, and has been since Catherine the Great. Russian control of Crimea is of little more real significance to the world at large than is the American naval base in Cuba. Neither are game changers.



#83 ThePilgrim

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 08:47 PM

The Ukrainian problem would not be a problem if we had not made it one by America insisting upon it's right to rule the world.  When I was a kid my brother and I decided to pour water in a yellow jackets nest.  You can imagine what the outcome was.  It wasn't good and I have never forgotten the incident and have never done it again.  If only the U.S. would learn from it's mistakes we would not mess around in other peoples business.  We put our nose in Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya, Syria and what have we gotten but a stirred up yellow jacket nest.  The Ukraine is Putin's business, let him stew and fret about it.  We have enough problems here in our own land.

 

The economy has fallen apart, we are fast becoming a police state, we don't know what to do about the migration of other nations people into our land . . . . yes, I would say we have enough to handle here.  We have no need to be messing around over there.  There's a song from the war to end all wars, World War I:

  "Over there, over there,

   Send the word, send the word over there 

  That the yanks are coming, the Yanks are coming 

  The drums rum-tumming everywhere.

The truth is The war to end all wars didn't end wars and neither did the next one or the next one ad infinitum.

They yanks shouldn't be going over there.  They should be staying home.  Bring our young men home and keep them home working to save this nation by once again building it up, instead of letting the politicians and their powerful friends tear it down.

 

Only God can or will stop wars.  It is not in man's sinful nature to stop wars.  For thousands of years, ever since Cain slew Abel, man's favorite way of settling disputes has been violence. 

 

As I said only God can stop the brutal insanity that is war.  That is why we should be ever on our knees praying for His intervention in the affairs of men, for men cannot seem to manage their own affairs.

 

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done.

 

I just had to vent . . . . had to get it off my chest.

 

God bless,

Larry



#84 swathdiver

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 01:12 AM

America and the EU played a dangerous game of subversion by aiding and fomenting political unrest in Ukraine with the intent of seeing the legally elected government toppled and a pro-West government take its place. They failed. Not only did they fail, they brought about much broader unrest and as they tried to decide what to do then, the Russians took action to secure their only warm water naval base.

 

America and the EU should have dealt with the matter quietly through diplomatic channels; accepting the fact they greatly blundered and it backfired; rather than making this a public war of words and threats, which has grown into a limited economic war, with now more threats of greater economic war and even a possible new cold war.

 

The cold war was rekindled the moment Putin took power.  As to the quotes above, it's no surprise we lost when you look at who the players are, Barack Hussein Obama, the least accomplished person in any room.

 

Pride is one of man's worst sins and greatest enemies.



#85 John81

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 08:10 AM

Actually Putin extended the hand of friendship and cooperation but the American president slapped it away. Russia under Putin has actually been helpful in providing intelligence on known terrorists. Russia has offered other helps as well as offered to work with America in different areas around the world.

 

For whatever reason, Obama treated Putin in a very dismissive and disrespectful manner from the beginning. Is it any wonder Putin has returned such treatment and likely relished in every opportunity to thumb his nose at Obama?

 

We also have to remember that when the Soviet Union was voluntarily disolved, America and European nations made promises to Russia, which Russia believed and counted on. Then most of those promises were quickly dropped. Rather than treating Russia as friend recovering from a bad addiction that was eager for friendship and help, America and her European allies went against their promises and began treating Russia like a defeated foe, a threat to be contained, a nation not worthy of friendship or respect. America pushed for the expansion of NATO (a military alliance) into the former Warsaw Pact nations, in violation of promises made to Russia. America bombed Russias Serbian friends while Clinton was in office despite Russias protest against such and calls for letting Balkans sort their own troubles. America squandered the opportunity to befriend Russia and help shape her into an ally.

 

Had Ukraine been let alone to determine her own destiny, what's occuring over there now likely would not have been.

 

As it stands now, it should be a local issue, not an international affair that has the potential to lead to dangerous economic war, cold war style background war, or outright war.

 

Faced with the same sort of situation I have no doubt that America, England and a host of other nations would have taken the same sort of action as Russia has.

 

As Pilgrim pointed out, America is falling apart from within. We have more than enough problems at home which needs to be dealt with. Otherwise we run the risk of following in the footsteps of Rome, who when faced with internal decay, moral corruption, mass immigration, a floundering economy, sought to distract the people with bread and circuses while continually beating the drums of war across their then known world.

 

The traditional conservative principle in such matters used to be based upon the Founding wisdom of staying out of other nations conflicts. America once offered moral support to those overseas they felt a connection with, but remained neutral regarding their internal affairs and their external wars. As the Founding philosophy was, have good relations with all we can, trade with everyone equally, stay out of their troubles and wars.

 

Somehow, pushing for war and trying to control the world wormed its way into modern "conservative" circles, mostly through the neo-cons. This has given us the likes of John McCain who seems to see every crisis (real or imagined) around the world as an opportunity for America to bomb or invade. This guy and his ilk have been pushing for military action and war after war for over a decade now. Were it up to McCain, America would still have large numbers of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq; America would have went to war with Syria, Iran, Libya and potentially with Russia on more than one occasion.

 

We need to focus our resources on home. We need to evangelize our own country. We need to permeate America with the Gospel and see souls born again.

 

The end is near. Who controls Crimea when Christ returns will be of little importance.



#86 Invicta

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 05:46 PM

America and the EU should have dealt with the matter quietly through diplomatic channels; accepting the fact they greatly blundered and it backfired; rather than making this a public war of words and threats, which has grown into a limited economic war, with now more threats of greater economic war and even a possible new cold war.

 

Sanctions very rarely work.  The only time they did as far as I can remember was Southern Rhodesia.  America has had sanctions against Cuba for decades but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

 

Not only over there.
 
There is going to be a news report on Monday and Tuesday evenings about foreigners in Calais trying to jump trucks to get to England.  They try to get in the back of the truck, climb on the axles and any other way they can chance it  We were in Calais yesterday 21st.  W saw many of these people hanging around near the port.  There is a  tented city just outside the port with tents made out of black plastic bags.  Some of these people are from Syria and Afghanistan.  Many have paid people traffickers.large amounts of money to get to Calais.  One said, when interviewed on the TV that he had been travelling for over 2 years to get there.  
 
When I was at school, many years ago, we were told that the population of our islands was 48 million and that it would rise to about 50 million and then start to drop as the country could not support that many.  Today we have  nearer to 70 million, I believe.  And still they come.
 


#87 John81

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 07:04 PM

Sanctions are a way to feel and look like a country is doing something when they know what they are doing won't really change things much.

 

Mass immigration into more prosperous countries will continue until the people of that country finally wake up and put an end to it or after the mass immigration destroys the country and it's no longer worth coming to.



#88 ThePilgrim

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 09:01 PM

What America is facing on it's southern border is not immigration but a migration.  It is such a large migration that it might be considered an invasion, especially since it his helped by the government of Mexico to serve their own purposes.

 

 

God bless,

Larry



#89 John81

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:25 AM

That is our most immediate threat, and has been for some time, but due to political correctness and the selfish ambitions of politicians this great danger has been ignored by some and propelled by others.

 

There is no secret that the Mexican government, many Mexican organizations within our borders, as well as millions of Mexicans hold the belief that America stole the American southwest from them and they are going to reclaim it by shear force of numbers.

 

What will a future America president do when, for instance, California is a Mexican majority State where Mexicans dominate all political positions and they declare they want their independence or want unification with Mexico? What will be the reaction of the United Nations to such? How many nations around the world will jump on this as a means to get back at America?

 

Now, imagine that perhaps Arizona, New Mexico and Texas are all majority Mexican, with Mexicans in full control of politics and they all sue to leave America to join together as a new Mexican nation or so they can join with Mexico. What then?

 

If America survives this century, China will be her greatest threat (not Russia). However, unless the immediate threat is dealt with, America may not survive that long.



#90 ThePilgrim

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:03 AM

That is our most immediate threat, and has been for some time, but due to political correctness and the selfish ambitions of politicians this great danger has been ignored by some and propelled by others.

 

There is no secret that the Mexican government, many Mexican organizations within our borders, as well as millions of Mexicans hold the belief that America stole the American southwest from them and they are going to reclaim it by shear force of numbers.

 

What will a future America president do when, for instance, California is a Mexican majority State where Mexicans dominate all political positions and they declare they want their independence or want unification with Mexico? What will be the reaction of the United Nations to such? How many nations around the world will jump on this as a means to get back at America?

 

Now, imagine that perhaps Arizona, New Mexico and Texas are all majority Mexican, with Mexicans in full control of politics and they all sue to leave America to join together as a new Mexican nation or so they can join with Mexico. What then?

 

If America survives this century, China will be her greatest threat (not Russia). However, unless the immediate threat is dealt with, America may not survive that long.

Well obviously the PPTO (Pan Pacific Treaty Organization) headed by China will instigate riots :verymad:  and then a coup in the Ukraine er sorry I meant the Southwestern states of the U.S. and the Southwestern states will proclaim themselves an independent nation and part of the PPTO (Pan Pacific Treaty Organization) headed by China and that will upset the U.S who will invade the area once called Wyoming and Colorado. :boxing:   The PPTO (Pan Pacific Treaty Organization) headed by China will move troops in from Mexico into the new CaliOreAvNevUtNewTex Mexico in order to prevent the war like Americans from invading from Wyoming and Colorado. :boxing:  An then, and then, and then.  . . . . . . Oh, I'm sure you get the idea.  Payback can be confusing at times. :popcorn:

 

God bless,

Larry



#91 swathdiver

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 02:56 AM

Putin is a deceptive foe, not an ally or someone to be trusted.  He will be helpful when it benefits him while at the same time stab you in the back.  Just like Obama, Kerry and ALL other Statists who are children of wrath, lost and in need of Jesus Christ.

 

It may appear that Obama slapped his friendly gesture down but I remember the President bowing to Putin (or was it his stooge?).  Also remember Putin making a fool of GW Bush.  As soon as the US Navy retired the F-14 Tomcat, the only long range interceptor in the fleet and its long range Phoenix missiles, Putin wiped the cobwebs off of cold war bombers and patrol planes and was once again buzzing the Fleet around the world because we were dumb enough to retire a capability and not replace it with a modern one.



#92 John81

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 06:57 AM

I think everyone posting here has acknowledged that Putin is concerned for what he thinks is best for Russia, not anyone else.

 

What's best for Russia is having a measure of control over what goes on right on her doorsteps and we should recognize that.

 

Why did America get involved in Cuba, the war with Mexico, affairs in Panama, Nicaragua and other South American countries and attempts to invade and take Canada? All for the sake of attempting to secure America, protect her borders and have control over the surrounding area.

 

At this point in time, that's all Russia is doing and whatever goes on between Russia and Ukraine is their business and even as Obama pointed out has no important national interests of America.

 

While it's true Russia still has nukes and could use them, that's highly unlikely as Russia would be destroyed in the aftermath. Beyond that, Russia doesn't have the capacity to wage a major, long term conventional war.

 

America should be on guard against any potential threat but the affairs in Crimea are not such.



#93 Arbo

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 07:28 AM

I do not understand why people are up in arms.  Russia is only a weak regional power.  Obama said so.  :icon_rolleyes:

 

http://www.washingto...6985_story.html



#94 John81

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 07:46 AM

When it comes to Obama, it depends upon which day of the week it as and which side of his face he's speaking from.

 

One minute Russia is a grave threat and their taking Crimea is a world disaster and the next Russia isn't a threat and the Crimea is no big deal.

 

Little wonder Putin looks down upon him and a growing number of other world leaders are thinking less of him.

 

Oh well, if he doesn't completely wreck the train before then, he'll be out of the White House in a little over two years.



#95 candlelight

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:17 AM

They both need to button up their shirts and wear a tie.  I want to do it for them.   :tapping: 

And, America is the laughing stock of  the world now. Bibi Netanyahu said months ago that Israel cannot depend on the USA anymore.  Once ties are broken with Israel, we can all pack it in.  We're goin' down. 



#96 John81

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:22 AM

Obama has made it clear he only deals with Israel because of political pressure, not because he wants to. He's made it equally clear that he favors the Arabs/Muslims.

 

Perhaps that's another reason Obama dislikes Putin, since Putin gets tough with Islamic terrorists who threaten Russia while Obama builds them new soccer fields, provides cable TV, good food, and even allows some to have court trials as if they were American citizens.



#97 candlelight

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 10:18 AM

Obama has made it clear he only deals with Israel because of political pressure, not because he wants to. He's made it equally clear that he favors the Arabs/Muslims.

 

Perhaps that's another reason Obama dislikes Putin, since Putin gets tough with Islamic terrorists who threaten Russia while Obama builds them new soccer fields, provides cable TV, good food, and even allows some to have court trials as if they were American citizens.

 

Oh, without a doubt John.  He is a "closet" Muslim.  

LOL!  You have a point, there.  The Muslims are getting everything under the Obama administration.  It is very sad when Putin looks better than our president.  

When I went to vote, the last time, my husband and I walked up the street to the school.  Muslim women were piling in the place to vote.  All I could think, is "There goes another vote for Obama."   :bigshock:   



#98 ThePilgrim

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 11:25 AM

Why the problem in the Ukraine.  Why this faceoff of sorts between two great powers?  Why must Obama and Putin be drawing lines in the sand and warning "thus far and no farther."  What is so important to these men that they seem so willing to threaten not only economic war but world war three.

These men both are surrounded by advisors.  Men who are considered by those in the know to have much knowledge in one field or another.  They have men who are adept at ferreting out information about this, that, or the other, analyzing it, and coming up with recommendations.  Obama has his NSA, CIA, FBI and other information collectors.  Putin has his own alphabet soup of organizations to do the same.  They both have so-called think tanks in their respective capitols who do nothing but analyze the information gleaned by the information collectors, running it through their powerful computers and their much educated minds.   They come up with different scenarios and options for consideration by the closest advisors to the president of their respective nations.  These closest advisors then give their opinions as to what are the proper actions to take in any given situation to their leader.

So Obama and Putin both, supposedly, have the advice of the world's most knowledgeable men.  In another day they would have been called the wise men of the kingdom or empire.  Today we just call them advisors.  So why does Obama end up standing on the very doorstep of Putin demanding that Putin not do this or that on Putin's own doorstep.

(From now on I am going to simplify this my just referring to  Obama)

Hubris.  The simple answer is hubris.  The definition of which is: pride or arrogance.  In Greek tragedy an excess of ambition, pride, etc.  ultimately causing the transgressors ruin.  A problem which afflicts all mankind.  There are none immune to it.  There are some to whom it is a sometime thing and some to whom it is a constant companion.  I believe that to Obama it is a constant companion.

In the 90s this tall, handsome community organizer, with a bright smile, and a talent for giving speeches caught the eye of the important people, the movers and shakers in Chicago and was groomed and urged to run for public office.  He won with his first campaign for the Illinois senate in 1996 with 82% of the vote.  An ego booster for sure.  He was reelected in 98 and 02.  More ego boosts.  Then in 2004 some more mighty important people, important in national and international affairs who had been noticing this up and comer for years, and also monitoring his run for the U.S. senate, decided it was time to move him to the national stage.  The stage was at the May, 2004 Democratic National Convention, a stage with a large important audience watching on their monitors in the back, smoke filled rooms, and other high places.

He came through this audition with flying colors.  The powers that be, the powerful, and just the plain folk loved him.  What an ego boost that must have been.   Also a boost for his U.S. senate campaign which he won with 70% of the vote.  Wow, a double boost.  On the stage of the 2004 Democratic National Convention the powers that be had set the stage for the 2008 Democratic National Convention and from there the rest is history we all know.

From birth at who knows where to the White House.  How could one help but be proud of such an achievement.   The problem is pride comes before a fall.  Remember the definition of hubris: pride or arrogance.  In Greek tragedy an excess of ambition, pride, etc.  ultimately causing the transgressors ruin.  Unfortunately when a man meets his ruin he does not meet it alone and in the case of one who has been lifted as high as Obama, the ruin cannot help but be of gigantic proportions. 

Obama is just a man with an ambition that far exceeds his intellect or innate abilities.  He is not an heroic figure that will change the world for the better.  He is just another tool in the hands of those who really run things.  He is a small man who has been convinced by those who have enabled him that he has done it.   There was a hit song back in the sixties, "I did it my way."  In the final analysis that is not true for any of us, not even Obama.

He has the world's biggest bank account (though it is all fiat money).  He has the world's most powerful military.  But what of lasting benefit to his nation, let alone mankind, has he accomplished.  We are citizens of a bankrupt nation in a world that is bankrupt and on the verge of world war III.  

Why has Obama not been able to do anything of lasting good in his lifetime?  A lack of wisdom.  Oh, he and those around him,  think they are wise, think they  have knowledge and understanding that ordinary folk don't have.  But theirs is a wisdom and a knowledge of the world.  They have no knowledge of God.

 Prov 1:7 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

Job 28:28  "And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding. "

Psa 111:10  "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever. "

Ecc 12:13 " Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

 

Unlike Solomon Obama never received such instruction from his father, nor from his step father, nor his mother or grandparents, nor  his communist mentor in his teen years.  I really doubt  he received such instruction in his college years, considering where he went to college and university and who his friends were.  He certainly didn't learn it in his travels to Pakistan or anywhere else in his travels.  He certainly didn't learn it from the reverend Jeremiah Wright.

I really doubt if anyone has ever been given a clear presentation of the gospel to Obama.  I know from Franklin Grahams description of Obama's meeting with Billy Graham that there was no discussion of anything as deep as the gospel.  Billy told Obama he was proud of him and Obama told Billy how much he respected him.  They discussed golf and other unimportant things to the nation or world.   Descriptions of this meeting can be found on the internet.

I don't know why Billy Graham was proud of Obama.  But telling Obama he was proud of him wouldn't hurt Obama's ego any.

I am getting tired and I've ran out of things to say about a man who is doing more than any man in history up to this point to bring us to the time of Antichrist.  He won't be it, but he is weakening this nation, readying it for impotence or destruction.  Someone, somewhere, sometime, in the not to distant future is going to take the opportunity to fill the void of leadership in the world.  It is a big void and getting bigger with each passing day.

 

God bless,

Larry



#99 ThePilgrim

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 02:41 PM

Yes it is really smart to put us troops in the Ukraine right now isn't it.  :umno:

http://rt.com/news/r...nce-expand-429/

 

God bless,

Larry



#100 HappyChristian

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 03:21 PM

Does anyone remember when BO was a senator and worked to disarm Ukraine in 2005?....






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