The Bible Only?

177 posts in this topic

Posted

Rome never changes.  Her motto is Semper Edem, (or Idem, Eadem)  Ever the Same.

 

Incidentally I agree that preterism was started by the Jesuit, Bellarmine to counter the reformers true teaching that the pope is the antichrist and the RCC church is the harlot.       There are two churches in the Revelation, 1.  The Bride, the true church and 2,  Mystery Babylon, Rome, the harlot, the false church.  This teaching was soon countered by the reformers so Jesiuts, Ribera  and others, invented Futurism for the same reason.  In the early 17th century Brightman wrote a rOBust reply to that false teaching.

 

Rome never will change, Invicta.  I grew up with Jesuits preaching preterism in the RCC.  It is not a secret how much they despise the Jews.  Unfortunately, this hatred for the Jews has spilled over into some Protestant denominations.  I thought I left that behind in the RCC.  BTW, my parents have always supported the Jewish people, and they had a prOBlem with the RCC b/c of this, as well.  And, many other things, too.  Many Roman Catholics are also not aware of this teaching.  They believe the lies spewed out by the Jesuits.  Many are returning to the RCC because of this Jesuit pope.  He worships Satan.  I will share a short video, this time, of the pope in a recent Mass at St. Peter's Basilica.

 

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Posted

Pope Francis worshiping Satan.

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All false religionists are worshiping Satan whether they realize it or not. It's such a terrible thing going on these days when many Christians are being sucked into the "Catholics are Christians too" big lie.

 

There is even one IFB church in a nearby small city that began a few years ago yoking with the local Catholic church (and other unsound churches) for political and local community and social needs.

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Posted (edited)

All false religionists are worshiping Satan whether they realize it or not. It's such a terrible thing going on these days when many Christians are being sucked into the "Catholics are Christians too" big lie.

 

There is even one IFB church in a nearby small city that began a few years ago yoking with the local Catholic church (and other unsound churches) for political and local community and social needs.

 

It doesn't make it Biblically right,  John.  As long as the IFB church sticks with the KJV, and follows it as closely to it as we can, we are not worshiping Satan.  There are still Biblically sound churches in the world.

It isn't like our Fundamentalist/Evangelical churches are going to gather groups together and pull a Jim Jones on the flock.  If that happens, I won't drink the Koolaide.   :runforhills:

Edited by candlelight

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Posted

Well Covenanter, your use of the word "signified" to make Revelation a symbolic book is unjustified in the text.

After that word is used there are quite plainly some (many) references which are literal, not symbolic, therefore to blindly symbolise the whole book is just wrong.
Secondly there are events described in great detail which have not been recorded in history, but which, because of their scale, would not possibly have been missed in the historical record.

I don't think you read my post - if you had you would have read:

"Symbolic language signifies something real & literal, & used to teach a real happening, normally in Scripture to be understood by careful reading & comparison of Scripture."

The large scale events - I presume you mean such events involving the earth as: And when he had opened the fourth seal,

I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

Often "earth" is used in the sense of "land" (meaning the land of Israel) or soil, as in: they had no deepness of earth. The same Gk word (ge) is variously translated, & the context helps us understand the meaning. We should not read earth as the planet in every case.

 

As the events of the Revelation are prophesied to occur shortly ... for the time is at hand they should primarily be understood as occurring in the first century - & as the destruction is still specifically prophesied (Rev. 11) we are dealing with local events relating to the destruction. With that understanding, the fourth part of the earth relates to the people of Jerusalem & its environs in their final rebellion. Ezekiel prophesies exactly that, & the deliverance of the remnant:

Eze. 14:19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20 though Noah, Daniel, and JOB, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness. 21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. 23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God.

The "seals" include the deliverance of the remnant - the144,000 firstfruits who as believers in the Lamb are chaste virgins in the religious sense.

 

Learn how to read the Scriptures, & understand the Scriptures by the Scriptures.

 

 

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Posted

Rome never changes.  Her motto is Semper Edem, (or Idem, Eadem)  Ever the Same.

 

Incidentally I agree that preterism was started by the Jesuit, Bellarmine to counter the reformers true teaching that the pope is the antichrist and the RCC church is the harlot.       There are two churches in the Revelation, 1.  The Bride, the true church and 2,  Mystery Babylon, Rome, the harlot, the false church.  This teaching was soon countered by the reformers so Jesiuts, Ribera  and others, invented Futurism for the same reason.  In the early 17th century Brightman wrote a rOBust reply to that false teaching.

HappyChristian is honest about the origins of Preterism & quotes from Eusebius, who refers to other Early Church Fathers. (I hold the "partial" Preterist position.)

 

Preterism as an eschatological explanation was laid out by a Jesuit - to counter the teachings of the Protestants that the RCC was the Whore of Babylon (which, BTW, is symbolic of something...it isn't literally a woman) and the Anti-Christ (FWIW - I am not a Preterist, but I don't believe the Whore is the RCC...at least not as she is now).  But the belief seems to have been taught before that. Eusebias made reference to it (he lived back in the 3rd/4th century) -

The fact that Preterism was taken up & taught by Jesuits is not significant. RCs have many doctrines that are shared with Protestants & IFBs - e.g. the so-called "Apostes' Creed."

 

The English text used in the Mass of the Roman Rite since 2011 is:

I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.      

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Posted (edited)

Paul held a pre-tribulatioal view of the gathering of the saints into the clouds to be with him 1Thess 4, and 2 Thess 2.

 

Replacement theology (body of Christ replaced Israel) is not new but more are into the preterist view today than ever.

 

Just hang on to your view when we get to heaven then we will know.

 

there is to much double fulfillment of Scripture if you compare the OT prophets and the book of Revelation (which is still future).  So we will know when we get there.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever
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Posted

All the Apostles believed in a "catching away" of the saints, for that matter.

All of the pre, mid, post, Mil, etc. are man made things.

OBviously, the word "rapture" is man made, but the belief in it is Biblical.

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Okay, second mod input: Most (though not all) of the time Covenanter doesn't initiate, push or belabor his views but sometimes (such as in this case) is pushed, prodded or shoved into it (should he respond or not? I prOBably wouldn't, you prOBably would). As to the "you ain't my pastor, boss, mod (or whatever) attitude toward John81, that was TOTALLY uncalled for.

 

If you were sitting in the same room hearing my voice you would understand all the above is stated with no animosity or emotion, just detached OBservation.

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Posted

All the Apostles believed in a "catching away" of the saints, for that matter.

All of the pre, mid, post, Mil, etc. are man made things.

OBviously, the word "rapture" is man made, but the belief in it is Biblical.

 

I don't believe that anyone on here does not believe that we will be caught away to meet the Lord in the air.  Trouble is many add to that.

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Posted

I don't believe that anyone on here does not believe that we will be caught away to meet the Lord in the air.  Trouble is many add to that.

 

Covenanter and Ukelelemike don't believe in it, Invicta.  This whole not believing in the "catching away" is news for me with IFB's.  I can understand it with Covenanter, but not Ukelelemike.

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Posted

I don't believe that anyone on here does not believe that we will be caught away to meet the Lord in the air.  Trouble is many add to that.

I believe in the rapture, but don't agree with the timing.  That said, whenever the rapture is we will both be going.  The only difference in us is that being post-trib, I will be surprised at being taken up because I have not yet seen the Anti-Christ in the temple whereas the pre-trib person will not be surprised. 

 

God bless,

Larry

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Posted

Covenanter and Ukelelemike don't believe in it, Invicta.  This whole not believing in the "catching away" is news for me with IFB's.  I can understand it with Covenanter, but not Ukelelemike.

Now hold on there, Ma'am. I most certainly Do believe in a catching away of the saints. I just happen to reject the pre-tribulation catching, for a post-trib/pre-wrath catch. If you're going to name names, please keep your facts straight. IN fact, the reason I believe as I do is because there is more evidence of the event of Rev 14:14 as the catching away, because nowhere else in scripture do we see anything like it, but here. Despite an earlier comment by AVBB that 1Thes 4 teaches a pre-trib rapture, all it teaches is the FACT of the rapture-it has nothing at all to do with the time.

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Posted

Well Covenanter, your use of the word "signified" to make Revelation a symbolic book is unjustified in the text.

After that word is used there are quite plainly some (many) references which are literal, not symbolic, therefore to blindly symbolise the whole book is just wrong.
Secondly there are events described in great detail which have not been recorded in history, but which, because of their scale, would not possibly have been missed in the historical record.

 

I wonder if some people ever read the bible.

 

The book of Revelation is filled with symbols, some explained in the text and others use the same symbols asi used in other.   books of the bible.

 

You don't have to read too far in the book of revelation before you find symbols.

 

Rev. 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
Two symbols and their explanation are give here.
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Posted

Covenanter and Ukelelemike don't believe in it, Invicta.  This whole not believing in the "catching away" is news for me with IFB's.  I can understand it with Covenanter, but not Ukelelemike.

 

From my discussion with Covenanter, I understand that he does believe that we will be caught up to meet with the Lord in the air. 

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Posted


I wonder if some people ever read the bible.

The book of Revelation is filled with symbols, some explained in the text and others use the same symbols asi used in other. books of the bible.

You don't have to read too far in the book of revelation before you find symbols.

Rev. 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Two symbols and their explanation are give here.


Yes, but NOT THE WHOLE BOOK.
That is my point. He takes a single words and thereafter applies that one word to the whole book, for the purposes of allowing him to twist any historical event to fit it.
There is much of Revelation that is not symbolic also, and the events recorded have not been seen in history and there is no way the historical record would have missed such massively described events.

I also wonder if people bother to read the Bible......
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Posted

All false religionists are worshiping Satan whether they realize it or not. It's such a terrible thing going on these days when many Christians are being sucked into the "Catholics are Christians too" big lie.

 

There is even one IFB church in a nearby small city that began a few years ago yoking with the local Catholic church (and other unsound churches) for political and local community and social needs.

Back in the late 19th century a Baptist preacher, I think his name was J W Philpot, wrote of a Baptist Church that was into occult practices.

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Posted

I went looking for sound New Testament Churches of the kind that Christ built and died for.  In one city I found several.  In another, none for many miles around.  

 

I did find many with the name Baptist that were man centered rock-n-roll emerging church entertainment complexes fooling the simple.  Egyptian bibles and when their statement of faith said the church began at pentecost, it revealed they were not baptist at all, just fakes.

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Yes, but NOT THE WHOLE BOOK.
That is my point. He takes a single words and thereafter applies that one word to the whole book, for the purposes of allowing him to twist any historical event to fit it.
There is much of Revelation that is not symbolic also, and the events recorded have not been seen in history and there is no way the historical record would have missed such massively described events.

I also wonder if people bother to read the Bible......

 

Yes I believe the whole book is signified.  Another term the bible uses for symbolism is "figure".

 

Ro 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
1Co 4:6  And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Heb 9:9  Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 11:19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

Incidentally, I don't think that Covenenter does believe the whole book is signified, as in Rev. 1:20 it says that candlesticks are churches and I believe that the two witnesses are also figured as churches as they are also candlesticks.  They are also olive trees, another symbol.

 

The Roman church is the great enemy of the true church.  Rome is signified as a harlot where the true church is signified as a bride, Rome is signified as Mystery Babylon, the church as New Jerusalem.

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Posted (edited)

An incorrect view of when the gathering takes place allows for the judgement placed on Christ for our sins to be made null and void.  Hence an incorrect view of the gathering would allow for the blood bought saint, whose judgement for their sins were paid for on the cross, to go through part of the wrath of God during JacOB's trouble.  This wrath I am speaking of is not that which follows the GWT Judgement, for no blood bought saint will be judged at the GWT Judgement because the judgement of our sins was upon Christ which he bore in himself upon the cross.

 

 Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

Edited by AVBibleBeliever
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Posted (edited)

An incorrect view of when the gathering takes place allows for the judgement placed on Christ for our sins to be made null and void. Hence an incorrect view of the gathering would allow for the blood bought saint, whose judgement for their sins were paid for on the cross, to go through part of the wrath of God during JacOB's trouble. This wrath I am speaking of is not that which follows the GWT Judgement, for no blood bought saint will be judged at the GWT Judgement because the judgement of our sins was upon Christ which he bore in himself upon the cross. Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
You mean this Wrath? Luk 21:23-24 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Cuz this already happened, and now they are back in Israel Or do you mean this Wrath? Rev 6:12-17 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Cuz clearly the Lamb shows up, after the stars fall, before the Wrath starts: 'Who shall be able'...is still a future event at the moment it is spoken, with the Lamb looking down through the missing sky. Mat 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The Lamb sends His angels to reap His elect, while the people left on Earth mourn, because it is very OBvious to them that they will now face His Wrath. Of course, none of them will repent. Rev 9:20-21 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood:which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Praise God we aren't appointed to Wrath, just to suffer Tribulation. Rom 5:3 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also:knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Eph 3:13 13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. 2Th 1:4 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Jn 16:33 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation:but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Rom 12:12 12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 2Th 1:4-8 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Our rest from them that trouble us comes when the Lord is revealed from Heaven, to take revenge on our persecutors. Let's see you try to say 2 Thes. wasn't written to the church. Anishinaabe Edited by prophet1
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Posted (edited)

You mean this Wrath? Luk 21:23-24 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Cuz this already happened, and now they are back in Israel Or do you mean this Wrath?

 

Without going into all your post I can say it all with this one example.

 

It will happen in the future as listed in the book of Revelation. 

 

having said that you would clearly benefit from studying the NT writings of Paul in deeper study and application.  Than misunderstanding the Book of Revelation. I think I mentioned over in How Do You Rightly Divide the Word of Truth thread there are ways of dividing it for study but it is not a book for a novice or someone who does not clearly understand how to rightly divide it will almost always lead to errors in understanding and application.

 

The term tribulation/tribulations used by Paul is not to be confused with the Great Tribulation known as JacOB's trouble.  For that which Paul speaks is personal or interpersonal tribulation which that spoken by Christ in the gospel books and Revelation is General tribulation of Israel and the world as a whole.

 

While Second Thess has more that is connected to the book of Revelation, you would do wise to study out the Term Elect and to whom it applies and at which time it applies differently to Israel and the Body of Christ and not confuse the two together.

 

A man who just died recently down in Tennessee I can't think of his name off hand but he has a big following but all based on the misunderstanding of the Book of Revelation.  I was banned because I took his teaching on their site and simply showed by the scriptures it was in error and that he had failure to rightly divide and his ability to wrongly join scriptures to make false teachings, and his example if a man taught that which was not of the word of God then his teaching was to be rejected.  In short I showed by his own teaching his teaching was to be rejected and the people were to follow God's word rather than him, just as he taught.

 

I am not sure but it seems from your post you have listened to his radio program or attended some of his Radio studies.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever
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An incorrect view of when the gathering takes place allows for the judgement placed on Christ for our sins to be made null and void.  Hence an incorrect view of the gathering would allow for the blood bought saint, whose judgement for their sins were paid for on the cross, to go through part of the wrath of God during JacOB's trouble.  This wrath I am speaking of is not that which follows the GWT Judgement, for no blood bought saint will be judged at the GWT Judgement because the judgement of our sins was upon Christ which he bore in himself upon the cross.

 

 Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

There is no question of believers suffering the wrath of God, whatever dispensational view we take. But as Anishinaabe points out, we do suffer tribulation, not from God, but that at the hands of the ungodly. See 2 Thes. 1. Believers suffer tribulation from the ungodly, but when Jesus returns, or they die, the ungodly will suffer wrath - final, total tribulation at the hands of God - hell-fire. Believers then will be fully vindicated & glorified.

 

As for JacOB's trouble, this was prophesied by Jeremiah towards the beginning of the captivity in Babylon. Rather than lift it out of context into a yet future dispensation, we can see it described in Esther, when Haman sought to totally destroy the Jews. 

 

By keeping to the Bible only, we can understand prophecy by what we read. We don't need to impose an interpetation system on Scripture.

 

Anishinaabe also points out that much of prophecy has occurred - particularly the Olivet prophecy of the destruction. While there are aspects of that prophecy that suggest a yet future fulfilment, we can see similar terminology used in the OT relating to destructions that are recorded in the OT.

 

e.g.

Mat. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Isaiah 13:The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. 

Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 

.....

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light:
the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

.....

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place,
in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

.....

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ......

 

Dan. 5:30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

 

We can also see the seals judgement, & the deliverance of the 144,000 servants prophesied in Ezekiel:

Note - "earth" is the same word often used for the "land" of Israel, so the scale of destruction is local, & not the whole planet.

 

Rev. 6:And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

Eze. 14:21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. 23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God.

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Posted

There is no question of believers suffering the wrath of God, whatever dispensational view we take. But as Anishinaabe points out, we do suffer tribulation, not from God, but that at the hands of the ungodly. See 2 Thes. 1. Believers suffer tribulation from the ungodly, but when Jesus returns, or they die, the ungodly will suffer wrath - final, total tribulation at the hands of God - hell-fire. Believers then will be fully vindicated & glorified.

 

As for JacOB's trouble, this was prophesied by Jeremiah towards the beginning of the captivity in Babylon. Rather than lift it out of context into a yet future dispensation, we can see it described in Esther, when Haman sought to totally destroy the Jews. 

 

By keeping to the Bible only, we can understand prophecy by what we read. We don't need to impose an interpetation system on Scripture.

 

Anishinaabe also points out that much of prophecy has occurred - particularly the Olivet prophecy of the destruction. While there are aspects of that prophecy that suggest a yet future fulfilment, we can see similar terminology used in the OT relating to destructions that are recorded in the OT.

 

e.g.

Mat. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Isaiah 13:The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. 

Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 

.....

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light:
the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

.....

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place,
in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

.....

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ......

 

Dan. 5:30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

 

We can also see the seals judgement, & the deliverance of the 144,000 servants prophesied in Ezekiel:

Note - "earth" is the same word often used for the "land" of Israel, so the scale of destruction is local, & not the whole planet.

 

Rev. 6:And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

Eze. 14:21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. 23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God.

I have read and re read all the Major Prophets and though God did historically punish and scatter Israel he has still not brought them back in Peace to dwell in unfenced/unwalled cities, in perfect peace forever as it states in almost everyone of those books. 

 

So it is clear, if it was not fulfilled in the past then it must be in the future. Israel was brought back into the land and not once in 2450 years has there been a peaceful free Israel with a descendant of David on the throne.  And would be no reason for God to give revelation to John about past events that have already taken place, so it will be future.

 

I never said we, the body of Christ, don't suffer at the hands of unbelievers, I was talking about the WRATH of God which is punishment, which is both during the time of JacOB's trouble(the great tribulation) against unbelieving mankind including Israel and after the GWT in the lake of fire.   The body of Christ suffering at the hands of unbelievers is not the Great tribulation of JacOB's trouble.  So therefore the tribulation Paul speaks of is not the same as the Great Tribulation/JacOB's Trouble/the day of the Lord/the Lord's day/the day of Great darkness that is the wrath of GOD against the unbelievers bot Jew and Gentile, nor is it what takes place after the GWT the wrath of God for all eternity for those sent to the lake of fire.

 

Jesus Christ took the wrath of God upon himself on the cross so the Body of Christ will not go through the wrath of God at any time period or eternity.  for it is finished.

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Without going into all your post I can say it all with this one example.

It will happen in the future as listed in the book of Revelation.

having said that you would clearly benefit from studying the NT writings of Paul in deeper study and application. Than misunderstanding the Book of Revelation. I think I mentioned over in How Do You Rightly Divide the Word of Truth thread there are ways of dividing it for study but it is not a book for a novice or someone who does not clearly understand how to rightly divide it will almost always lead to errors in understanding and application.

The term tribulation/tribulations used by Paul is not to be confused with the Great Tribulation known as JacOB's trouble. For that which Paul speaks is personal or interpersonal tribulation which that spoken by Christ in the gospel books and Revelation is General tribulation of Israel and the world as a whole.

While Second Thess has more that is connected to the book of Revelation, you would do wise to study out the Term Elect and to whom it applies and at which time it applies differently to Israel and the Body of Christ and not confuse the two together.

A man who just died recently down in Tennessee I can't think of his name off hand but he has a big following but all based on the misunderstanding of the Book of Revelation. I was banned because I took his teaching on their site and simply showed by the scriptures it was in error and that he had failure to rightly divide and his ability to wrongly join scriptures to make false teachings, and his example if a man taught that which was not of the word of God then his teaching was to be rejected. In short I showed by his own teaching his teaching was to be rejected and the people were to follow God's word rather than him, just as he taught.

I am not sure but it seems from your post you have listened to his radio program or attended some of his Radio studies.

I have read the KJV, listened to the AV, and studied the English Bible.

But, thanks for asking.

Now, try addressing the actual points in the post, please, instead of trying to categorize me, so you can dismiss me.

FTR, I have no idea who the man in TN is, nor have I listened to, watched, streamed, or read any thing by any one who wasn't a personal friend, in years.

I, like you, am interested in propogating the Truth.

Anishinaabe

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