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What Do You Think The "kingdom Of God" Is?


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#21 Ukulelemike

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:01 PM

This is a good topic. Lots of thoughtful discussion, great ideas and everyone is being so nice and polite to one another.



#22 Genevanpreacher

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:20 PM

I am trying. :godisgood:



#23 No Nicolaitans

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:45 PM

This is a good topic. Lots of thoughtful discussion, great ideas and everyone is being so nice and polite to one another.

 

Well, I believe the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are both the same...and anyone who disagrees with me is a heretic.   :nuts:



#24 Invicta

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:03 PM

Yes they are the same thing.
 
Matt 3:2. And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 1:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
 
Matthew and Mark are speaking about the same thing.
 
Matthew uses both terms for the same thing here:
Mt 19:23  Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 19:24  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
 


#25 Covenanter

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:50 AM

Just entering the discussion - I've been reading until now. It's a BIG topic.

 

[Oh dear! Here comes trouble :( ]


Edited by Covenanter, 11 April 2014 - 05:52 AM.


#26 Covenanter

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:25 PM

The LORD is the eternal King, without beginning or end.

 

1 Sam. 8:But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

 

2 Sam. 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

 

1 CHr. 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

 

Psalm 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

 

Psalm 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

 

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

Even Nebuchadnezzar recognised this eternal truth:

Dan. 4:How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

 

The 4 great kingdoms are succeeded by the Kingdom of the triumphant Son of man:

Dan. 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

 

Jesus was condemned for blasphemy for quoting Daniel:

Mat. 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

The Kingdom of God; the LORD; heaven; my kingdom ..... is God's eternal Kingdom. We acknowledge or reject him as our King, but his Kingdom does not depend on man. Our status under the Gospel is that we are a royal priesthood, kings & priests.

1 Peter 2:But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

Rev. 1:4 .... Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Not forgetting :

Exo. 19:Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

 

The Scriptures do not envisage a yet future earthly, personal, physical kingdom - the LORD has always been King, and Jesus rose from the dead to be declared King, fully vindicated. From Pentecost, many thousands of the Jewish believers acknowledged Jesus as Lord & Messiah. As Peter proclaimed:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 



#27 Genevanpreacher

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:37 PM

The LORD is the eternal King, without beginning or end.

 

1 Sam. 8:But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

 

2 Sam. 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

 

1 CHr. 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

 

Psalm 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

 

Psalm 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

 

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

Even Nebuchadnezzar recognised this eternal truth:

Dan. 4:How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

 

The 4 great kingdoms are succeeded by the Kingdom of the triumphant Son of man:

Dan. 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

 

Jesus was condemned for blasphemy for quoting Daniel:

Mat. 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

The Kingdom of God; the LORD; heaven; my kingdom ..... is God's eternal Kingdom. We acknowledge or reject him as our King, but his Kingdom does not depend on man. Our status under the Gospel is that we are a royal priesthood, kings & priests.

1 Peter 2:But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

Rev. 1:4 .... Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Not forgetting :

Exo. 19:Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

 

The Scriptures do not envisage a yet future earthly, personal, physical kingdom - the LORD has always been King, and Jesus rose from the dead to be declared King, fully vindicated. From Pentecost, many thousands of the Jewish believers acknowledged Jesus as Lord & Messiah. As Peter proclaimed:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 

Excellent!! And Amen!! I like this!



#28 Ukulelemike

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:57 PM

Well, I believe the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are both the same...and anyone who disagrees with me is a heretic.   :nuts:

s984514446738687905_p1800_i2_w320.jpeg



#29 Covenanter

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:38 AM

Believers ARE in the present Kingdom of Christ:

Colossians 1:12 giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

 

Whatever we believe about eschatology, this is the wonderful present reality.

 

Enjoy!



#30 beameup

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:22 PM

In some respects, there are two kingdoms.  One will last for 1,000 years on earth after Jesus returns (Millennium);

and the other is eternal, following the creation of a new earth and new heaven wherein dwells eternal righteousness.

 

The "Kingdom of Heaven" is where the Father and Son and all his angels dwell (Third Heaven), and this Kingdom will be

brought to the earth when Jesus returns and rules from David's throne in Jerusalem.

 

So it could be argued that the "Kingdom of God" is the eternal kingdom following the re-creation of the heavens/earth.

 

The Israelites (Jews) clearly understood this part of his preaching.  They wanted "Messiah" to return their nation to its former glory.


Edited by beameup, 12 April 2014 - 12:25 PM.


#31 Invicta

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:12 PM

Yes but the unbelieving Jews had got it wrong.  Even the apostles got it wrong when they asked the question on Mt Olivet.  After the ascension, they never got it wrong again. 

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


#32 Covenanter

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:43 PM

In some respects, there are two kingdoms.  One will last for 1,000 years on earth after Jesus returns (Millennium);

and the other is eternal, following the creation of a new earth and new heaven wherein dwells eternal righteousness.

 

The "Kingdom of Heaven" is where the Father and Son and all his angels dwell (Third Heaven), and this Kingdom will be

brought to the earth when Jesus returns and rules from David's throne in Jerusalem.

 

So it could be argued that the "Kingdom of God" is the eternal kingdom following the re-creation of the heavens/earth.

 

The Israelites (Jews) clearly understood this part of his preaching.  They wanted "Messiah" to return their nation to its former glory.

Have you any Scriptures to support these statements ?

 

Is the Kingdom John & Jesus & the disciples preached as being at hand still future ??? 

 

Was the Kingdom 2000+ years in the distant future when Jesus announced it ???



#33 ASongOfDegrees

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:02 PM

As far as I see there are two aspects of God's kingdom, one physical and one spiritual, and only the spiritual aspect applies to today. Our

commission is to get people into the kingdom of God via the new birth and that's it. It's not to bring in the kingdom on earth since our kingdom is not from hence. Still, the kingdom goes beyond this and there is still a future aspect that has to be fulfilled in the literal, physical, Abrahamic, Davidic, kingdom of heaven that will be located here on earth with it's capital at Jerusalem. I believe this is the part of the kingdom the Matthew focused on since his gospel is primarily directed at the Jews. So the term "kingdom of heaven" is more exclusive to the literal, physical kingdom of God. That being said one will not enter into the physical kingdom of God unless he is born again (John 3:16) and is spiritually translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son (Col. 1:13). 

 

If you ram all the teachings on the kingdom into one concept like "the church is the kingdom" you will end up with a State Church that is 

trying to build the physical kingdom of heaven on earth through stealing the covenants,promises, laws and blessings from Israel and applying them to the church, ruling over the kings of the earth, creating wars, burning witches and heretics, taxes, priesthood, "Vicar of Christ" etc, etc. like the Papists and Puritans have attempted to do. 

 

As far as the "mysteries of the kingdom" like mentioned in Matthew 13 that is a little harder to grasp, IMO, because you have the unsaved and false doctrine involved and we know that neither are in the kingdom of God. Also. these things are presently taking place on earth. You even have people being plucked out of the kingdom of heaven and being tossed into hell (Matt. 12:41,42). This CANNOT have application to the spiritual kingdom of God because you cannot get into that unless you are born again.



#34 beameup

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:28 PM

Have you any Scriptures to support these statements ?

 

Is the Kingdom John & Jesus & the disciples preached as being at hand still future ??? 

 

Was the Kingdom 2000+ years in the distant future when Jesus announced it ???

See, herein lies the problem of understanding the words of Jesus.  Did Jesus have "self imposed"

limitations on what he knew when he was here "in the flesh"?  If he had been "received" by the nation

Israel, then the Kingdom would have started immediately.  As it turned out, they  did not.... YET.

 
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you
I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.  John 14:10
Clearly, Jesus did not "speak his own mind".  It could easily be interpolated that he did not "know everything" while here on earth.
 
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

From God's perspective, his plans are designed to yield the greatest harvest of souls... no matter how long it takes.


Edited by beameup, 12 April 2014 - 06:29 PM.


#35 Genevanpreacher

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 10:02 PM

 

See, herein lies the problem of understanding the words of Jesus.  Did Jesus have "self imposed"

limitations on what he knew when he was here "in the flesh"?  If he had been "received" by the nation

Israel, then the Kingdom would have started immediately.  As it turned out, they  did not.... YET.

 
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you
I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.  John 14:10
Clearly, Jesus did not "speak his own mind".  It could easily be interpolated that he did not "know everything" while here on earth.
 
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

From God's perspective, his plans are designed to yield the greatest harvest of souls... no matter how long it takes.

 

 

[ " If he had been "received" by the nation

Israel, then the Kingdom would have started immediately.  As it turned out, they  did not.... YET."]

 

Just curious, where is this stated in the scriptures? His death purchased our salvation, AND Israel's did it not? Is it not true that there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile?

 

["Clearly, Jesus did not "speak his own mind".  It could easily be interpolated that he did not "know everything" while here on earth."]
 
Huh? We were talking about the mind of Christ as he is eternally known not just in his 'physical' time here.

Edited by Genevanpreacher, 12 April 2014 - 10:05 PM.


#36 Dr James Ach

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 01:49 AM

Common sense should tell a person that heaven and God are not the same. Thus the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same thing. The few instances where the terms are supposedly "interchangeable" are merely Christ mentioning a time when BOTH will be present at the same time after the tribulation.

 

John Howe has posted a good short video on this which I will post because it gets old typing the same thing to the same Calvinist heretics all the time :)

 



#37 Covenanter

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 03:53 AM

Common sense should tell a person that heaven and God are not the same. Thus the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same thing. The few instances where the terms are supposedly "interchangeable" are merely Christ mentioning a time when BOTH will be present at the same time after the tribulation.

 

John Howe has posted a good short video on this which I will post because it gets old typing the same thing to the same Calvinist heretics all the time :)

 

 

OTOH a simple reading of Scripture will tell us that the Kingdom of God & the Kingdom of heaven ARE the same, & used inerchangeably. Sorry about your  common sense. Common sense is not enough - you the spiritual understanding.

 

And, of course the great tribulation took place in the run up to the destruction.



#38 Covenanter

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 03:59 AM

 

See, herein lies the problem of understanding the words of Jesus.  Did Jesus have "self imposed"

limitations on what he knew when he was here "in the flesh"?  If he had been "received" by the nation

Israel, then the Kingdom would have started immediately.  As it turned out, they  did not.... YET.

 
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you
I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.  John 14:10
Clearly, Jesus did not "speak his own mind".  It could easily be interpolated that he did not "know everything" while here on earth.
 
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

From God's perspective, his plans are designed to yield the greatest harvest of souls... no matter how long it takes.

 

Sorry but I read the words of Jesus - he made it very clear that his rejection & crucifixion were according to the Scriptures. Jesus' rebuke is for you also:

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.



#39 Genevanpreacher

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 10:00 AM

First off, I do not pay much attention to Dr. Ach. He is very abusive for a 'man of God'.

As for this video, the man obviously follows mans teachings over what Jesus Christ himself actually said. 

Like the teachings that the Gospel writers were writing to specific groups. That exists no where in the scriptures. The Gospels were written to all who were alive at the time. As to the different viewpoints, that is subject to mans view, not the authors themselves. God used these men for the purpose of extracting the truth out of the common talk about Jesus and who he claimed to be, to give us a foundation and an anchor to hold onto as facts.

The statement that the kingdom of God, and the kingdom of heaven, are two different 'things' going on at the same time?

Come on Dr., the stress is the kingdom, not where or who, but what.

Yes God is not heaven, and heaven is not God, but where is God? And what makes heaven what it is?

 

God.

 

It is the time when God and heaven are our eternal heaven, which includes this life. For once we are born again we become citizens of the kingdom, for he is our King, where he resides and where we look to go for all eternity, including when heaven comes to earth and is.

 

And, who, pray tell, is going to own the kingdom of heaven?

 

God.

 

So what difference does it make for some 'preacher' to say they are two different things, compared to what God himself, in human form, has said?

 

God is right. Not this fellow.

 

As for his John 3 section? Not bad, but listen, the end result of one being born again means that he is entered into the kingdom now (spiritual), and will be later (physical).

So? What's the difference?

And when you see the physical change in the comparison of the winds, and the rebirth, does that not make it a 'physical' thing to the convert also? Hence making the kingdom a physical thing to the one who converteth his ways?

 

I stopped at 11:17. Couldn't take the info anymore.

 

This fellow is deluded into believing lies.

 

Sorry for the bluntness.

 

And... I refuse to get involved with any discussion with Dr. Ach. It's his way or the highway. So do not bother trying to egg me on to any 'arguing' with you Sir.


Edited by Genevanpreacher, 13 April 2014 - 10:08 AM.


#40 beameup

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 10:48 AM

Sorry but I read the words of Jesus - he made it very clear that his rejection & crucifixion were according to the Scriptures. Jesus' rebuke is for you also:

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Sorry, but perhaps I should have used another word instead of "immediately".  Perhaps soon would have been better suited.  English has it's limitations.  I do not quickly throw around the words "heretic" and "rebuke" as I consider it ungodly to do so against other Christians.   

I know from whence that particular "spirit" comes.

 

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.  Acts 1:7

 

The "Kingdom" has never been established on the earth.


Edited by beameup, 13 April 2014 - 11:41 AM.





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