A Conversation With Moses

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Posted (edited)

A customer of mine who is a Seventh Day Adventist stopped by yesterday and as usual, after business was out of the way, our conversation turned to religion. He seems compelled to try to convince me that it's important to keep the Sabbath, saying that the keeping of Sunday, is some kind of common denominator we have with the ecumenical movement toward the Catholic Church.  I asked him if he believed in "the trinity" and he said he did. So I said that the Catholics beleive that as well. He changed the subject.

 

He keeps mentioning the necessity of keeping  the 10 commandments and as I brought up more scripture and we went back and forth on that awhile, I began to ask questions, I discovered that his Mom and Dad, originally Catholics in his homeland of Chile, had converted to SDA before he was even born. So as he was telling me that this had nothing to do with his holding to that faith, it finally hit me....His Mom and Dad named him MOSES(spelled Moises in Spanish)....who better to keep the 10 commandments?

 

I stressed that keeping the 10 commandments wasn't the way to salvation, that trusting in Jesus alone was the way. I also asked him what the main commandment was. He knew and recited it but went back to the 10 to which I replied that if you love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, you won't steal, kill, covet etc. He agreed with that but brought up the Sabbath again.

 

Anyway, just exactly why do we worship on Sunday? Because Jesus rose on the first day? And why don't we keep the Sabbath as well? Can someone jog my memory on some scriptures to show this man? Thanks

Edited by heartstrings

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The SDA will try to take you back to the creation...but the Sabbath (rest) in Genesis 2:1-3 was God's rest, not man's.  The Sabbath was a special sign between God and Israel, not mankind in general. (Exodus 31:12-18).

 

There is no record in Genesis that God gave the Sabbath to man or that man kept the Sabbath before Israel in the wilderness (Nehemiah 9:13-14).

 

The Sabbath is mentioned three times in the NT epistles:

 

1. The Sabbath is a symbol of salvation rest in Christ (Hebrews 4)

2. The New Testament believer is not bound to keep the Sabbath (Colossians 2:9-17)

3. The New Testament believer has liberty in the matter of holy days (Romans 14)

 

Those who teach that the Sabbath is binding on the Christian are teaching contrary to what the Apostles taught.

 

The reason why Jesus kept the Sabbath is because He was born a Jew under the Law that He might fulfill it and redeem His people from the penalty and bondage of the Law (Galatians 4:4-5).

 

Jesus Christ is our Sabbath/rest!  We worship on Sunday because Jesus rose on the first day of the week (which is Sunday)...not because any "church" changed the Sabbath from Saturday (the 7th day of the week) to Sunday (the 1st day of the week).  The special sign of the Sabbath God gave to Israel  will never be annulled or transferred to another people.  Israel will keep the Sabbath during the Millennium (Isaiah 66:23).

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Posted

National-Sunday-Law-billboard-300x182.jp

 

These SDA billboards are common down South.

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Posted

Thank you Sister!

I will study this and pass it on to Moses,, next time he brings it up, which he will. :)

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Posted

By example - the Apostles met on the first day of the week.

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Note here that they were not just having a cup of coffee - they were "assembled", which indicates an organised meeting.

But in the book of Acts they met every day at times - so any day is good to meet, but Sunday is specifically mentioned.
Do a search on "First day of the week".

Interestingly, whilst the SDA say Sunday worship is the mark of the beast, in the kingdom of Tonga they meet on Sunday in compliance with national law. Unlike Peter who said "We ought to OBey God rather than men", they forsake their teaching for men's laws in this case.
If they were serious about it they would meet on Saturday there and suffer the consequences.........

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Posted (edited)

A customer of mine who is a Seventh Day Adventist stopped by yesterday and as usual, after business was out of the way, our conversation turned to religion. He seems compelled to try to convince me that it's important to keep the Sabbath, saying that the keeping of Sunday, is some kind of common denominator we have with the ecumenical movement toward the Catholic Church.  I asked him if he believed in "the trinity" and he said he did. So I said that the Catholics beleive that as well. He changed the subject. ...

 

 

If I may briefly comment upon the last few sentences in regards to "the trinity"?

 

The Roman Catholic theology does not believe in the Scriptural "trinity".  What is taught is rather, "one principle" [iow, a singularity, one essence, substance, and once realized why it is so, it makes all the more sense], which is not what Scripture teaches.  The offiicial Roman Catholic theological position is in contradiction to the Scripture and is thus in opposition to the Seventh-day Adventist position - which is firmly grounded upon the Rock; please notice the following of the Roman Catholic theological position [which is a world of difference from what the Seventh-day Adventist preach based upon the Word, which your SDA friend may not readily know, not having studied Roman theology, for the following quotations from Roman theology reveals that Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not really have self-existence]:

 

"We believe then in the Father who eternally begets the Son, in the Son, the Word of God, who is eternally begotten; in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated Person who proceeds from the Father and the Son as their eternal love. Thus in the Three Divine Persons, coaeternae sibi et coaequales,[8] the life and beatitude of God perfectly one superabound and are consummated in the supreme excellence and glory proper to uncreated being, and always "there should be venerated unity in the Trinity and Trinity in the unity."[9]" [Online Roman Catholic Library; Credo of the People of God; Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on June 30, 1968] - http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06cr.htm


"...that the Paraclete "is not to be considered as unconnected with the Father and the Son, for He is with Them one in substance and divinity"...


... Proceeding both from the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost, nevertheless, proceeds from Them as from a single principle. ... Hence it follows, indeed, that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the two other Persons, not in so far as They are distinct, but inasmuch as Their Divine perfection is numerically one. Besides, such is the explicit teaching of ecclesiastical tradition, which is concisely put by St. Augustine (On the Holy Trinity V.14): "As the Father and the Son are only one God and, relatively to the creature, only one Creator and one Lord, so, relatively to the Holy Ghost, They are only one principle." This doctrine was definded in the following words by the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons [Denzinger, "Enchiridion" (1908), n. 460]: "We confess that the Holy Ghost proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle, not by two spirations, but by one single spiration." The teaching was again laid down by the Council of Florence (ibid., n. 691), and by Eugene IV in his Bull "Cantate Domino" (ibid., n. 703 sq.). ...

..."the Holy Ghost comes from the Father and from the Son not made, not created, not generated, but proceeding" ... " [Online Roman Catholic Encyclopedia, Holy Spirit; sections throughout] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm


"The sacrosanct Roman Church, founded by the voice of our Lord and Savior, firmly believes, professes, and preaches one true God omnipotent, unchangeable, and eternal, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; one in essence, three in persons; Father unborn, Son born of the Father, Holy Spirit proceeding from Father and Son; that the Father is not Son or Holy Spirit, that Son is not Father or Holy Spirit; that Holy Spirit is not Father or Son; but Father alone is Father, Son alone is Son, Holy Spirit alone is Holy Spirit. The Father alone begot the Son of His own substance; the Son alone was begotten of the Father alone; the Holy Spirit alone proceeds at the same time from the Father and Son.

 

These three persons are one God, and not three gods, because the three have one substance, one essence, one nature, one divinity, one immensity, one eternity, where no opposition of relationship interferes.
 

“Because of this unity the Father is entire in the Son, entire in the Holy Spirit; the Son is entire in the Father, entire in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is entire in the Father, entire in the Son. No one either excels another in eternity, or exceeds in magnitude, or is superior in power. For the fact that the Son is of the Father is eternal and without beginning; and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is eternal and without beginning.” Whatever the Father is or has, He does not have from another, but from Himself; and He is the principle without principle. Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle. Whatever the Holy Spirit is or has, He has simultaneously from the Father and the Son. But the Father and the Son are not two principles of the Holy Spirit, but one principle, just as the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of the creature, but one principle. ..." The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV by Pope Eugene IV - http://catholicism.org/cantate-domino.html

Edited by John Whytston

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Posted

Thank you Sister!

I will study this and pass it on to Moses,, next time he brings it up, which he will. :)

 

I wouldn't so readily pass that answer on.  The answer that was given is Scripturally incorrect in several places [though if LindaR disagrees, she may inquire howso], and if Moises is true wheat, he should be able to share the truth of the matter with you, or anyone, in a meek and humble fashion with the Scripture in hand before you, line upon line.

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Posted

...Anyway, just exactly why do we worship on Sunday? ... And why don't we keep the Sabbath as well? Can someone jog my memory on some scriptures to show this man? Thanks

 

The answer is, that it was foretold by God, that Satan, through the Anti-christian power. would promulgate his own day and law in the place of God's Law, and decieve the whole world by getting them to think they were following God's law, when in fact they were violating it the whole time - "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." Daniel 7:25

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Posted

Funny though - Jesus didn't rebuke the Apostles for meeting together on the first day of the week on any of the recorded occasions he appeared to them as they so gathered.

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Posted (edited)

Funny though - Jesus didn't rebuke the Apostles for meeting together on the first day of the week on any of the recorded occasions he appeared to them as they so gathered.

 

There is no laughing matter when it comes to sin [1 John 3:4], however, there was never any reason that he should have for any meeting together, there was never any proscription in the Scripture against doing so.

 

There was however, rebuke for their unbelief.  The reason they had gathered originally was "for fear of the jews", not for Christ Jesus and faith in Him.

Edited by John Whytston

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Posted

Would you care to point out from Scripture the rebuke for them meeting there?

There was rebuke for THOMAS' faithlessness, but that had nothing to do with them meeting there or then.

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An interesting study to do is to search the New Testament for places where it NAMES a particular day that a church met.

In fact the early church met daily - see any number of passages in Acts.
So no day was considered a bad day to meet together as a church to worship the Lord.
No day is prohibited by Scripture as a day to meet together to worship the Lord.

Where a specific day is mentioned, it is "the first day of the week".
Paul went into the Synagogues on the Sabbath, but that is because that's when people were there.....
And that was not a church meeting.

Any day is an appropriate day to meet together as a church to worship the Lord.
The example of Sunday worship is clear in the Apostles, the church at Jerusalem, and the other churches as mentioned in the Epistles.
The Gospels, the Acts, and the Epistles all show the first day of the week worship, and although I do not see a direct command that it be so, there is certainly no command for any other day, nor is there command against Sunday worship.

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Posted (edited)

Col 2:13-17 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Anishinaabe

Edited by prophet1

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Posted

National-Sunday-Law-billboard-300x182.jp

 

These SDA billboards are common down South.

Where ? never seen one ?

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Posted

Where ? never seen one ?

NC, VA, WV, SC, TN, etc. When I drove OTR truck I'd see them a lot. I just saw another one recently down near Appomattox, VA.

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heartstrings , try this tell him that you'll answer his questions if he'll first do one thing for you , if you have marked in your bible the way to lead someone to Jesus lead him through the steps. if you don't have this ask a brother or sister or your pastor at your church for their help, most SDA will want to argue the Sabbath with you but know very little about salvation, his salvation is whats important, I would  pray for the lord to lay conviction on his heart the next he visits. 

praying for you brother

God bless 

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Posted (edited)

NC, VA, WV, SC, TN, etc. When I drove OTR truck I'd see them a lot. I just saw another one recently down near Appomattox, VA.

thanks, now I 'm wondering what this has to do with the thread by heartstrings ? 

 

NC, VA, WV, SC, TN, etc. When I drove OTR truck I'd see them a lot. I just saw another one recently down near Appomattox, VA.

Edited by EKSmith

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This was a question I had.

If the Sabbath didn't "matter" why was the man stoned for gathering sticks on the Sabbath day?

 

This is an interesting take on it and I don't remember ever hearing it like this before: Those who are relying on their works.....are like picking up sticks on the "sabbath day", because they are not trusting completely in the "sabbath rest" which is Christ. The "six days" (the number of man) represent human effort, but the seveth day represents completion and perfection. Christ is the fulfillment and the perfection and rest is only found in Him. Ironically, those who are trusting in THEIR ability to keep the "law", including the "sabbath" are really lost and headed for Hell. We are no longer under the Mosaic Law and, like I pointed out to Moises, we don't sacrifice sheep, turtle doves or any of that stuff either. The real "law" is the law of loving God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. Everything hangs on that. No human effort can make a man love God, or love his neighbor as himself....we just don't have that nature. Salvation involves no human effort whatsoever...none....zero.

 

http://www.godlovespeople.com/articles/killed_for_sticks.htm

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thanks, now I 'm wondering what this has to do with the thread by heartstrings ? 

The OP touched upon the SDA's belief about the Sabbath. I just pointed out that they think Sunday worship is the mark of the beast.

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The OP touched upon the SDA's belief about the Sabbath. I just pointed out that they think Sunday worship is the mark of the beast.

ok fair enough brother God bless

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Posted (edited)

Would you care to point out from Scripture the rebuke for them meeting there?

There was rebuke for THOMAS' faithlessness, but that had nothing to do with them meeting there or then.

 

Sure, you will have to prayerfully open the Bible and compare all of the Gospels together, please go with me to the following passages:

 

Matthew:

 

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. Matthew 28:17

 

Mark:

 

And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. Mark 16:11

 

And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Mark 16:13

 

Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. Mark 16:14

 

Luke:

 

And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. Luke 24:11

 

And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? Luke 24:17

 

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Luke 24:25

 

John:

 

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. John 20:19

 

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. John 20:25

 

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27

 

I pray that this has been helpful.  Please notice again the very reason for their assembly, for it was "for fear of the Jews", even behind shut doors.

Edited by John Whytston

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Posted (edited)

Col 2:13-17 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Anishinaabe

 

There are several questions which I have for you, if you would like to consider them about those particular passages.

 

[1] Where is Paul quoting from in the Old Testament specifically?  There are several texts he is utilizing [for ex. Psalms 98:1-2 for just two].

 

[2] What, specifically, is the "handwriting of ordinances", that Paul is speaking of, for he is again referring to the Old Testament usage from which he is quoting, and does he utilize the same language anywhere else in the NT, if so where?

 

[3] What is the definition of sin that Paul utilizes in the very context?

 

[4] Where does Paul get the words "... against us ... contrary to us..." from, in the context of the passages he is quoting from in the Old Testament, and what does it mean there?

 

[5] In verse 16 there is a list of "ordinances" that are found given in that order, and in other, in the Old Testament, what are they referring to there?

 

[6] Is there a significance to the specific ordering that Paul utilizes of those "ordinances"?, In other words, is there a specific timeframe involved for each item in the list [for ex.  daily, seasonally, monthly, yearly [or of years,e tc]]

 

[7] In verse 16, the verse says, "...of the sabbath days", which is plural in the very Greek itself, as well as English in the KJV, what "sabbath days" then is Paul referring to specifically, and how may we know?

 

[8] In verse 17, what are the two contrasting words "shadow" and "body" referring to, and does the New Testament utilize this same word elsewhere, and if so, in what way?  Additionally, was they of things past [iow, a memorial, a remembrance], or "...of things to come."?

Edited by John Whytston

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heartstrings , try this tell him that you'll answer his questions if he'll first do one thing for you , if you have marked in your bible the way to lead someone to Jesus lead him through the steps. ...

 

Ok, let us go forward.  Is "repentance" involved?  If so, then what shall we "repent" from?

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Sure, you will have to prayerfully open the Bible and compare all of the Gospels together, please go with me to the following passages:

Matthew:

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. Matthew 28:17


Mark:

And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. Mark 16:11


And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Mark 16:13


Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. Mark 16:14


Luke:

And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. Luke 24:11


And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? Luke 24:17


Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Luke 24:25


John:

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. John 20:19


The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. John 20:25


Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27


I pray that this has been helpful. Please notice again the very reason for their assembly, for it was "for fear of the Jews", even behind shut doors.

None of which shows Jesus rebuking the Apostles for meeting on the first day, nor even for meeting together for fear of the Jews - there is no rebuke for that.

The question was about meeting the first day.

You can show Jesus rebuking for other things in an effort to smokescreen away from the issue, but you have not answered the question.

Jesus does not rebuke them for meeting there that day.

There is nowhere found a rebuke for meeting on a Sunday.
Sunday is the only day individually mentioned as a day when a church met together.
It is mentioned that they met every day, but it is never specified that they met as a church on the Sabbath, aside from the fact that they met every day.

I will make it as plain as I can:
THE ONLY DAY SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED WHERE A CHURCH MET TOGETHER TO HEAR THE PREACHING OF GOD'S WORD AND TO WORSHIP THE LORD IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK. NOWHERE IS IT EVER MENTIONED THAT A CHURCH MET SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT PURPOSE ON THE SABBATH.
But they did meet every day, including the sabbath and the first day of the week.
And there is never a rebuke for meeting on the first day of the week.

Meet on the sabbath if you wish, but there is no cause to condemn any church for meeting on any other day, including the first day of the week, as the apostles and the early churches did.
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Spam alert!

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