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#21 John Whytston

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:03 PM

Would you care to point out from Scripture the rebuke for them meeting there?

There was rebuke for THOMAS' faithlessness, but that had nothing to do with them meeting there or then.

 

Sure, you will have to prayerfully open the Bible and compare all of the Gospels together, please go with me to the following passages:

 

Matthew:

 

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. Matthew 28:17

 

Mark:

 

And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. Mark 16:11

 

And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Mark 16:13

 

Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. Mark 16:14

 

Luke:

 

And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. Luke 24:11

 

And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? Luke 24:17

 

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Luke 24:25

 

John:

 

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. John 20:19

 

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. John 20:25

 

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27

 

I pray that this has been helpful.  Please notice again the very reason for their assembly, for it was "for fear of the Jews", even behind shut doors.


Edited by John Whytston, 23 April 2014 - 10:04 PM.


#22 John Whytston

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:27 PM

Col 2:13-17 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Anishinaabe

 

There are several questions which I have for you, if you would like to consider them about those particular passages.

 

[1] Where is Paul quoting from in the Old Testament specifically?  There are several texts he is utilizing [for ex. Psalms 98:1-2 for just two].

 

[2] What, specifically, is the "handwriting of ordinances", that Paul is speaking of, for he is again referring to the Old Testament usage from which he is quoting, and does he utilize the same language anywhere else in the NT, if so where?

 

[3] What is the definition of sin that Paul utilizes in the very context?

 

[4] Where does Paul get the words "... against us ... contrary to us..." from, in the context of the passages he is quoting from in the Old Testament, and what does it mean there?

 

[5] In verse 16 there is a list of "ordinances" that are found given in that order, and in other, in the Old Testament, what are they referring to there?

 

[6] Is there a significance to the specific ordering that Paul utilizes of those "ordinances"?, In other words, is there a specific timeframe involved for each item in the list [for ex.  daily, seasonally, monthly, yearly [or of years,e tc]]

 

[7] In verse 16, the verse says, "...of the sabbath days", which is plural in the very Greek itself, as well as English in the KJV, what "sabbath days" then is Paul referring to specifically, and how may we know?

 

[8] In verse 17, what are the two contrasting words "shadow" and "body" referring to, and does the New Testament utilize this same word elsewhere, and if so, in what way?  Additionally, was they of things past [iow, a memorial, a remembrance], or "...of things to come."?


Edited by John Whytston, 23 April 2014 - 10:30 PM.


#23 John Whytston

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:41 PM

heartstrings , try this tell him that you'll answer his questions if he'll first do one thing for you , if you have marked in your bible the way to lead someone to Jesus lead him through the steps. ...

 

Ok, let us go forward.  Is "repentance" involved?  If so, then what shall we "repent" from?



#24 DaveW

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:13 PM

Sure, you will have to prayerfully open the Bible and compare all of the Gospels together, please go with me to the following passages:

Matthew:

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. Matthew 28:17


Mark:

And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. Mark 16:11


And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Mark 16:13


Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. Mark 16:14


Luke:

And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. Luke 24:11


And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? Luke 24:17


Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Luke 24:25


John:

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. John 20:19


The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. John 20:25


Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27


I pray that this has been helpful. Please notice again the very reason for their assembly, for it was "for fear of the Jews", even behind shut doors.

None of which shows Jesus rebuking the Apostles for meeting on the first day, nor even for meeting together for fear of the Jews - there is no rebuke for that.

The question was about meeting the first day.

You can show Jesus rebuking for other things in an effort to smokescreen away from the issue, but you have not answered the question.

Jesus does not rebuke them for meeting there that day.

There is nowhere found a rebuke for meeting on a Sunday.
Sunday is the only day individually mentioned as a day when a church met together.
It is mentioned that they met every day, but it is never specified that they met as a church on the Sabbath, aside from the fact that they met every day.

I will make it as plain as I can:
THE ONLY DAY SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED WHERE A CHURCH MET TOGETHER TO HEAR THE PREACHING OF GOD'S WORD AND TO WORSHIP THE LORD IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK. NOWHERE IS IT EVER MENTIONED THAT A CHURCH MET SPECIFICALLY FOR THAT PURPOSE ON THE SABBATH.
But they did meet every day, including the sabbath and the first day of the week.
And there is never a rebuke for meeting on the first day of the week.

Meet on the sabbath if you wish, but there is no cause to condemn any church for meeting on any other day, including the first day of the week, as the apostles and the early churches did.

#25 LindaR

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:40 PM

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#26 John Whytston

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:45 AM

An interesting study to do is to search the New Testament for places where it NAMES a particular day that a church met. ...

 

It is most definitely an interesting study, especially in the places where it '"NAMES" a particular day that a church met'.

 

The many times that the "Sabbath" of the LORD is given in the New Testament:

 

Matthew 12:1,2,5,8,10,11,12,   24:20,   28:1;

 

Mark 1:21,   2:23,24,27,28,   3:2,4,   6:2,   7:6-9,   15:42,   16:1;

 

Luke 4:16,31,   6:1,2,5,6,7,9,   13:10,14,15,16,   14:1,3,5,   23:54,56;

 

John 5:9,10,16,18,   7:22,23,   9:14,16,   19:31;

 

Acts 1:2,   13:14,27,42,44,   15:21,   16:13,   17:2,   18:4;

 

Additional references are:

 

Hebrews 4:9; [Greek: sabbatismos, literal sabbath-keeping]

 

Revelation 1:10 [kuriake hemera, "the Lord's Day" [the 7th Day Sabbath, not "the Day of the Lord", this is totally different in the Greek], see Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Deuteronomy 5:12:15, Isaiah 58:13, 66:23, Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:27,28; Luke 6:5 ], 10:6 [see also Exodus 20:11, 31:17 Nehemiah 9:6; Psalms 146:6; Acts 4:24, 14:15, Revelation 14:7]; 14:7 [see previous], etc

 

Additionally, further references in the Greek are [every single 'first [day] of the week' text]:

 

Matthew 28:1 - oye de sabbatwn and eiV mian sabbatwn
Mark 16:2 - kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn
Mark 16:9 - anastas de prwi prwth sabbatou
Luke 24:1 - th de mia twn sabbatwn
John 20:1 - th de mia twn sabbatwn
John 20:19 - th mia twn sabbatwn
Acts 20:7 - en de th mia twn sabbatwn
1 Corinthians 16:2 - kata mian sabbatwn

 

Additional reference is in the Sabbath before Jesus' death, wherein Jesus, the disciples and Lazarus, all were at Lazarus' house, six days before the Passover, the very next day being the Triumphal entry:

 

Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. John 12:1

 

In fact the early church met daily - see any number of passages in Acts. ...

 

Indeed, and not only in Acts, yes even in the Gospels and elsewhere, the Christians [even as did the Jews] met daily, none of which eliminates obedience to God in His 4th Commandment:

 

Jesus met in the temple "daily" [and not only there, also synagogue, and in nature], even especially in his last week from Sunday to Tuesday, especially: John 11:55, 21:1; Matthew 26:55; Mark 14:49; Luke 19:47, 22:53; John 18:20; see additionally [in this order, read carefully], Matthew 21:10; Mark 11:11; John 12:12,13; Matthew 21:12,13,17; Mark 11:12,15,16,17,19; Matthew 26:2; Mark 14:1; Matthew 21:18,23; Mark 11:20,27; Matthew 23:37,38,39 [Parallel to Luke 13:31,32,33,34,35]

 

And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Acts 2:46

 

And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ. Acts 5:42

 

And does any know why this "daily"?  Understand this text - Psalms 77:13

 

Also, Jesus met with the Discples the 2nd day of the week here, since he spent a great deal of time with the two Disicples on the Road to Emmaus on the first day [see Luke 24:21, "...beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done"], it came to be evening [which begins the next day, when the sun sets at even, Mark 1:32; Leviticus 23:32; Genesis 1:5,8,13,19,23,31, etc ], and then they sat down to dinner, and as Jesus vanished before them, they ran back to Jerusalem at night and then Jesus met with them again, all together [thus no longer the 'first [day] of the week', but rather the second [day] of the week]:

 

But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. Luke 24:29

 

And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. Luke 24:30

 

And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, Luke 24:33

 

And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. Luke 24:36

 

Jesus also stayed for 40 days after His resurrection, His first ascension and return:

 

To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: Acts 1:3

 

Thus, since Jesus ascended for the Second time, this time from the Mount of Olives, he was there with them exactly 10 days before Pentecost [first [day] of the week], which means, we see again that Jesus was with them not merely upon the first [day] of the week.

 

So no day was considered a bad day to meet together as a church to worship the Lord.

No day is prohibited by Scripture as a day to meet together to worship the Lord.

 

There never was such an injunction in Scripture.  It is a myth, mere misdirection to lead away from the 4th Commandment, which is a clear and immutable command, Exodus 20:8-11.

 

Christians meet every day of the week now, even as do Seventh-day Adventists, prayer meeting, Bible study, special concert, fellowship, potluck!, etc.  None of those things takes the place of the requirement of God in His 4th Commandment.

 

None of the 6 common working days, first [day] of the week through preparation day [6th [day] of the week] are ever designated by God as Holy, yet the 7th Day is always Holy, because God made it from Creation as so.

 

Where a specific day is mentioned, it is "the first day of the week".

 

We have seen by the previously given scriptures that the day is not named at all, but always, from Genesis to Revelation simply given a number, always pointing to the culmination of the week, which is the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord, thy God.  Not merely from the mouths of the Jews, but also Gentiles, like Luke, etc - years after the Crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection and ascension.  The Koine Greek text, from which the KJV NT English is derived specially names the Sabbath in each of those 'first [day] of the week' texts, which thus gives even more evidence of the Sabbath.

 

Paul went into the Synagogues on the Sabbath, but that is because that's when people were there.....
And that was not a church meeting.

 

Paul and Barnabas, and Luke, etc not only met in the synagogue [which simply means "the gathering"], but also outdoors in nature, God's Creation, just as Jesus had done:

 

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. Luke 4:16 [What was Jesus reading about?]

 

And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, Luke 4:17

 

And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. Luke 4:20

 

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. Matthew 12:1

 

And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught. Mark 1:21

 

And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. Mark 2:23

 

And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Mark 6:2

 

And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days. Luke 4:31

 

And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands. Luke 6:1

 

And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered. Luke 6:6

 

And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. Luke 13:10

 

And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him. Luke 14:1

 

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Acts 17:2

 

And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. Acts 16:13

 

What did Paul do that Jesus didn't do?  Didn't Jesus preach the Gospel?  Notice the context of the last verse, it was where "prayer" was made, and they "sat down".

 

Jesus specifically foretold that the Christians would be keeping the Sabbath long after He had ascended, even as they continued to do, even after He died:

 

And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Luke 23:56

 

Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. Acts 1:12 [This was written by Luke, a Gentile, years after the fact]

 

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Matthew 24:20

 

The Gentiles themselves, as it was foretold in the OT, begged Paul to preach to them also on the Sabbath:

 

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Acts 13:42

 

And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. Acts 13:44 [That was primarily from the Old Testament, aided by the Testimony of Jesus]

 

Further, we see that Paul preach in specific places, always on the Sabbath to the peoples, Jews and Gentiles, even in one city a year and six months, every Sabbath!

 

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Acts 17:2

 

And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. Acts 18:4

 

Any day is an appropriate day to meet together as a church to worship the Lord.

 

Christians ought to worship God every day [for it is not as said that the 7th Day Adventist only worships on the Sabbath, another myth! another distraction from the truth], and that especially includes keeping His commandments, especially in regards to the 4th Commandment, for to transgress it is sin [1 John 3:4].  Christians ought to worship God of every moment of their lives [Psalms 55:17, 119:164; Daniel 6:10,13, morning, evening, etc see the Sanctuary, Psalms 77:13]

 

Those which knowingly disregard the 4th Commandment, do not worship God, but another god of their own making, with their own law and righteousness, with their own gospel, which is not another.  This is not to speak about those which are simply in ignorance, but only those in rebellion to a plain thus saith the Lord, and they have been shown.

 

The example of Sunday worship is clear in the Apostles, the church at Jerusalem, and the other churches as mentioned in the Epistles.

 

Actually it is not, since most of the "first [day] of the week" texts of the NT [I think it is five out of 8, if I remember right] all speak of the exact same day and not multiple first [day]s, and as for Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2 [among a few others, like Revelaiton 1:10] are greatly abused.  More detail if necessary upon these or other texts in future, should any desire to actually study them.

 

The 7th Day Sabbath overwhelming is given, rather than those particualr texts, and even in those texts the Sabbath is named [see the Koine Greek], while the first [day] is only a number pointing to the Holy Day of God, the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord, for the Son of Man is indeed, even now, Lord of the Sabbath Day...

 

The Gospels, the Acts, and the Epistles all show the first day of the week worship, and although I do not see a direct command that it be so, there is certainly no command for any other day, nor is there command against Sunday worship.

 

Therein is the real problem, and it is called "tradition", and also elsewhere "eisigesis", since there is no command in Scripture as it is even witnessed by yourself in print.  Most do not know their history when it comes to the Sabbath and what took place... and what was foretold in the Scripture concerning Jesus and His Law...

 

There is a commandment for the Sabbath, even as it is found in numerous places if one desires to look more closely, begin with John 14:15, then turn over to Exodus 20:6 and continue reading...  or turn to Acts 4:24 and 14:15 and compare to Exodus 20:11, and so on and so forth.

 

This is a very serious matter, for as it is written, "the hour of His judgment is come", yea is even in this day of ours, see Revelation 14:6-7, while the Everlasting Gospel is going forward.

 

The systems of religion which follow after Rome in their teachings, are already weighed in the balance and found wanting - come out of her my people....


Edited by John Whytston, 24 April 2014 - 01:09 AM.


#27 DaveW

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:25 AM

Twist, twist, twist, but the plain fact is that whenever you see a specific day mentioned where a CHURCH met together for preaching, it is designated as the first day of the week.

I never refuted that Paul went to the synagogue on the Sabbath, nor that Jesus did so.
Of course they did - apart from anything else, it was the designated day of teaching for the Jews.
And it was then that Jews gathered to be taught from God's Word. What better day to teach but when people were there.

But I am not Jewish.
And wherever you see a church meeting in the New testament it is either an undesignated day, or specifically mentioned as the first day of the week.

It is not that hard really.

Meet whenever you like - the Bible prohibits no day for the church to meet together.
But the example is that the churches of the New Testament made a habit of meeting on the first day of the week

#28 EKSmith

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:46 AM

Ok, let us go forward.  Is "repentance" involved?  If so, then what shall we "repent" from?

if you would like to start a thread about repentance then I would be happy to post, this is heartstrings and with respect I  will not change it'

though heartstrings did make it clear of the question he had ask " concerning the man on the Sabbath picking up sticks

I hope to help him with an answer as soon as I can.

 

God bless friend


Edited by EKSmith, 24 April 2014 - 02:19 AM.


#29 candlelight

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 05:11 AM

Oh, my word.  It looks like "A Banner Over Me is Love" is back under a new screen name.  Don't feed the trolls, Christians.



#30 prophet1

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:40 AM

Mar 2:25-28
25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Col 2:16
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


Anishinaabe



#31 Ukulelemike

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:40 AM

Yeah, he's bye bye now.At least until he returns under a new name.



#32 LindaR

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:52 PM

Yeah, he's bye bye now.At least until he returns under a new name.

I think he'll be back in a few months.  He may even have a "sleeper" name registered now....that would not surprise me



#33 HappyChristian

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:54 PM

If he does, when it wakes up we'll get 'im.  :knuppel:  :biggrin:



#34 Salyan

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:33 AM

National-Sunday-Law-billboard-300x182.jp

 

These SDA billboards are common down South.

 

I've heard of this, but never seen it before. I've had a couple SDA friends/acqaintances, but they've never said anything about this. Wonder if that particular doctrine is a bit watered down up here.

Col. 2:16 definitely applies both ways.






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