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A New Covenant With The House Of Israel, And With The House Of Judah


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#1 beameup

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:10 PM

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant
that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God, and they shall be my people.  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother,
saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their
iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. [includes the national sin of killing Messiah]  Jeremiah 31:31-34

Edited by beameup, 21 April 2014 - 12:14 PM.


#2 beameup

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 05:24 PM

On another Baptist forum, this same post of mine yielded 150 responses... 11 pages of responses.


Edited by beameup, 01 May 2014 - 05:26 PM.


#3 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:25 PM

Obviously this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.



#4 ASongOfDegrees

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:35 PM

What the preterist will do is quote Galatians 6:16 and Romans 9:7, then use the Greek to change the word "covenant" to "testament" (or just refuse to recognize the difference between the two words) and voila, they just kicked Israel out of the passage and replaced her with the church. 



#5 Eric Stahl

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 05:07 PM

It is hard to argue with the truth.



#6 beameup

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:58 PM

It seems, those who hold to "covenants" seem to completely ignore unconditional covenants made by God to Jews.

Why is that? 



#7 Covenanter

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 05:33 PM

What the preterist will do is quote Galatians 6:16 and Romans 9:7, then use the Greek to change the word "covenant" to "testament" (or just refuse to recognize the difference between the two words) and voila, they just kicked Israel out of the passage and replaced her with the church. 

You are wrong, of course, but we need a comprehensive approach, and it's bedtime.



#8 Genevanpreacher

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 05:42 PM

What the preterist will do is quote Galatians 6:16 and Romans 9:7, then use the Greek to change the word "covenant" to "testament" (or just refuse to recognize the difference between the two words) and voila, they just kicked Israel out of the passage and replaced her with the church. 

 

I know you are gone from here or I am blocked from you, but I posted in another post this: 

 

Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:04 PM

Wow! Look at this -  διαθηκη

And compare this -   diatheke

 

One is the Greek word for 'covenant'.

The second is the Greek word for 'testament'. Using English letters of course.

 

Both the same word! Isn't that just strange?

 

*If you have a Textus Receptus Greek New Testament, you will see the word on the cover.

 

Edited by Genevanpreacher, 15 May 2014 - 05:51 PM.


#9 Invicta

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:10 PM

  Phil 2:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 ¶  Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 ¶  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶  Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16  Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17 ¶  Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18  (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Edited by Invicta, 15 May 2014 - 06:12 PM.


#10 beameup

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 07:01 PM

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 

Romans 11:1-29



#11 Covenanter

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 02:58 AM

What the preterist will do is quote Galatians 6:16 and Romans 9:7, then use the Greek to change the word "covenant" to "testament" (or just refuse to recognize the difference between the two words) and voila, they just kicked Israel out of the passage and replaced her with the church. 

The first four references in the NT are to the Lord's Supper. All these are to the New Testament.

 

"Testament" does not occur in the Old Testament - where the OT is quoted, "covenant" is replaced by "testament." Therefore we should in the AV consider the words as synonymous, unless the context indicates a specific meaning.

 

God makes covenants with his people, a promise of blessing and protection on condition of obedience, or, sometimes unconditional. Gen.15, Ex. 24, Lev. 26, Jer. 31, the Lord's Supper, Hebrews. All the OT covenant promises requiring obedience failed because of disobedience. The New Covenant succeeds because of Jesus' perfect obedience. Instead of obedience to the Law, obedience of faith grasps the covenant. Rejecting Christ rejects the new covenant, and forfeits the promises. Acts 3, Deu 18. 

 

Both Jews and Gentiles are welcomed into the covenant by faith, and ultimately receive ALL the covenant blessings in the NH&NE. Rev. 21. Many thousands of Jews did believe the Apostolic Gospel. The generation that rejected both the Messiah and the Gospel perished. The covenant promises are open to all through the Gospel. God is NOT planning a future vendetta/tribulation/rescue of a rebellious nation.

 

The feast is announced, all are invited - COME and WELCOME, but not claiming descent from Abraham, but come as repentant sinners to Jesus.  See John's preaching and John 8. 



#12 Genevanpreacher

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 09:21 PM

They need to create a "really like" button.

Some of this info I don't 'just' like, but really like.  :hsyft:



#13 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 06:01 PM

Problem:
The Covenant God made with Abraham was very specific regarding his physical seeding inheriting the physical land grant for eternity.  This covenant is NOT fulfilled by "spiritual Jews" (Rom. 2:28-29) because the wording of the Abrahamic Covenant is crystal clear.  Furthermore, the covenant is unconditional and irrevocable.  There will be literal flesh-and-blood Jewish people from Abraham's lineage that will dwell in the Promised Land.  Thus, we await for this to be fulfilled, since many of the people in the Promised Land today do not belong there - they are not of Abraham's seed, nor are they Jewish proselytes.

 

The Covenant God made with Israel is conditioned on the their obedience to the Law God gave them as a nation at Mt. Sinai.  The conditions for keeping or breaking the covenant are listed in Deuteronomy 28.  God promised severe judgment on them if they broke the Law.  However, the Abrahamic covenant governs the Sinaitic Covenant in that God's Judgment can only be temporary, and not a complete annihilation of the nation of Israel.  To completely obliterate the nation of Israel would require a breaking of the Abrahamic Covenant.  It is impossible for God to lie!  (Heb. 6:18).  This is why all of the OT prophets would preach harsh, severe judgment from the Lord, but then also remind them of a future restoration.  The prophecies of restoration have been partially fulfilled, but if we are to believe every word of God literally (!), then it is quite obvious that not ALL of the prophecies of restoration have been literally fulfilled.  No amount of juggling Scripture and trying to apply those prophecies to the Church in "spiritual" interpretation will account for these prophecies - at least not in literal terms, as the intended target audience would have understood them.

 

The Covenant God made with David (II Sam. 7) is also crystal clear.  God promised to bring the promised Messiah through David's line, and that David's throne would be eternal.  God would not cast aside David's PHYSICAL line on a PHYSICAL throne as He did Saul.  This means that David will have a lineage that produces a physical king on a physical throne ruling over Israel.  Again, attempting to force an interpretation onto the text that pretends this is fulfilled by Jesus Christ reigning over the entire world FROM HEAVEN today is absurd - it does not do justice to the text.  If Christ is reigning from Heaven today, then the skeptics and atheists are right - He is doing a bad job (I speak respectfully here to make the point!  I don't believe God is doing a bad job, but the logical conclusion to the false teaching on the covenants would lead one to believe that!)  We must remember that the Abrahamic and DAvidic covenants are eternal covenants and unconditional covenants.  Therefore, since they are not presently being fulfilled, the answer must be that there will be a future restoration of the physical seed of Abraham that will live in the land promised to Abraham and his physical seed by God Himself, with a king over the physical nation of Israel that comes from David's lineage.  This kingdom, once in place, will never be judged, or removed, or destroyed again.  It will continue from that point forever without ending. 

 

There is absolutely nothing in the New Testament CHURCH that fulfills anything about any of these covenants.  The new covenant with the physical nation of Israel, based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ will restore the physical nation of Israel to its rightful place among the nations in the land God unconditionally promised to Israel.  This will happen BEFORE the New Heavens and New Earth, as Revelation 19-20 PRECEDE Revelation 21, with the Lord Jesus Christ descending in a physical form (Rev. 19) to this current earth, and establishing a physical kingdom over the entire planet (Rev. 19:15 - Christ conquers the NATIONS, and rules over them!)  At this point, the New Covenant with Israel will be established. 

Currently, we as the Church, the Bride of Christ, are partakers of the New Covenant, but only partially.  The only aspects that we partake of are the forgiveness of sins and full reconciliation to God through Jesus Christ, i.e. salvation by grace through faith in Christ, apart from the OT Law.  The rest of the New Covenant pertains the physical Israel, not the church.  We do not inherit any physical land, nor do we rule the planet from the land God promised the physical seed of Abraham.  We rule WITH Christ during the Millenial Age, and then we inhabit the New Jerusalem in eternity, not the New Earth.  Israel will inhabit the New Earth, with David as their king, ruling under the authority of Christ.

 

How do I arrive at these conclusions?  By believing that what God promised to Abraham and David is literal, and must be fulfilled literally and physically.  I believe this because that is what the texts related to these covenants demand.  They cannot be changed.  They are irrevocable, unconditional, and eternal.

 

In Christ,



#14 Invicta

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 06:35 PM

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 

Romans 11:1-29

 

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.



#15 beameup

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 07:31 PM

 

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;

that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.  And so all Israel shall be saved:

as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my Covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.  Romans 11:25-27

Edited by beameup, 17 May 2014 - 07:32 PM.


#16 Miss Daisy

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 01:13 PM

too deep for me.

 

what's preterist?

 

Forget it I looked it up and basic definition is one who believes all the stuff in Revelation has already happened which is absolutely impossible for me to believe! Ridiculous!

So am I  antiterist?


Edited by Miss Daisy, 18 May 2014 - 01:31 PM.


#17 Genevanpreacher

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 02:10 PM

too deep for me.

 

what's preterist?

 

Forget it I looked it up and basic definition is one who believes all the stuff in Revelation has already happened which is absolutely impossible for me to believe! Ridiculous!

So am I  antiterist?

 

Wouldn't that be posterist? :nuts: Get it? pre ... post ... um... hee,hee...


Edited by Genevanpreacher, 18 May 2014 - 02:11 PM.


#18 Covenanter

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 04:03 PM

too deep for me.

 

what's preterist?

 

Forget it I looked it up and basic definition is one who believes all the stuff in Revelation has already happened which is absolutely impossible for me to believe! Ridiculous!

So am I  antiterist?

I suggest you read my posts for a Scriptural understanding.



#19 Miss Daisy

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 04:16 PM

I've already read enough to know I don't believe in preterism.  No matter how you twist scripture.



#20 Genevanpreacher

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 05:22 PM

Nobody got my joke.   :umno:






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