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What Advice Do You Have Or Same-Sex Couples


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#1 kindofblue1977

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:22 PM

Very real scenario:

 

Two women have lived together for 12 years in a same-sex relationship.  They have gone to another state to get legally married and now reside in your state.  Through in vitro fertilization and an anonymous sperm donor through a sperm bank, they have conceived and are raising three children, ages 6, 4 and 6 months.  They come to your church and would like to join.

 

What do you do?  What do you tell them?  What position should the church take on this?  This puts two sins in at odds.  Homosexuality and divorce.  Maybe.  Perhaps they have decided to remain celibate.  No one has ever asked my wife and I about our sex lives, so should we ask about theirs? 

 

I am curious to know what your advice would be.  Here we have three children who are well cared for, love their mothers, and are excelling in every area of life.  If you advise them to separate and "divorce" (that is what would occur, no matter what you call it), the children would be harmed.  If you advise them to stay together, do you tell them they have to be celibate?

 

How should the church address same-sex families in these situations?  How can the church possibly reach them if we advocate tearing their family apart? 

I am friends with a couple in this very situation. I never hear Christians talk about the realities, and am curious as to your thoughts:

 

1.  How do you know this couple is having sex, which is prohibited in the Bible?  If they are celibate, are they still sinning? 

 

2.  When children and assets are involved, and breaking them up, if you say that is what they must do, how do you decide who gets custody of children?  Who gets the house?  Who gets money in the bank account? 

 

I'm not interested in a debate as the morality or immorality of same-sex sex.  I am interested in the realities of people who are living as families and are legally married, and how the church should address these situations.  Do we just turn them away?  Do we maintain and respect their families and tell them to abstain from sex? 



#2 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:31 PM

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In God's eyes, they are not married... Even if another state performed the ceremony.

As to letting them join the Church, a definite no. Unless of course, they separate and repent of their wickedness.

#3 TheSword

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:43 PM

Well...first I don't think it pits one sin against another because, as SFIC said, they are not married according to God's definition of marriage. While legally it may be divorce, spiritually it is a repentence from fornication. As far as the children, I would think getting changing their environment to where they see that homosexuality is not a valid lifestyle would be a good thing. Hurt feelings are meaningless when compared to the gravity of eternity. I also agree that I would not consent to letting them join the church without a divorce, separation, and complete cessation of their relationship because they would be in open and unrepentent sin and would immediately be subject to church discipline in the same manner as the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5.

 

Their salvation must be addressed first and that necessarily involves the acknowledgment of sin and turning away from the old lifestyle of sin and self and pursue the will of God (i.e. repentence). If they refuse to divorce and get that part of their life right then they're effectively saying they don't care what God says they're going to live how they want to live and that is not a repentent heart and is moreso self-idolatry. The bottom-line on it is that it is an extremely public sin that would make massive waves on the health of the congregation.

 

I would never turn them away from attending the church as guests though. Everyone should have access to the gospel and biblical preaching. 



#4 kindofblue1977

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:47 PM

How do you know they are having sex?  What if they have made a vow of celibacy? 



#5 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:51 PM

Living together as married? Wake up, kob.

#6 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:52 PM

Quit trying to make excuses for sin.

#7 brosmith

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:59 PM

I find the original post to be vile, wicked, and disgusting. I have reported it to the moderators and I hope it will be deleted.



#8 TheSword

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:01 PM

How do you know they are having sex?  What if they have made a vow of celibacy? 

 

Physical acts are irrelevant. Jesus said lust was the same sin (Matt 5:28). There is also the principle of stumbling block; i.e. showing the children and the rest of the congregation for that matter that homosexuality is ok. Jesus said it was better a person die than cause a child to stumble (Matt 18:6). There is the principle of separation from the world and its version of right and wrong (2 Cor 6:17; Psa 1). I'm sure we could name several more governing principles, but the bottom line is that none them allow a position of compromise. It is God's way or man's way.  I know it's an unpopular position and I know it will likely be hurtful to the parties involved, but that doesn't change the truth of God's mind on things.



#9 kindofblue1977

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:02 PM

And what about it do you find vile and wicked?
 

I presented a very real scenario.  One that I have seen occur in the last church I was a part of.  One that I have encountered with some neighbors on my street.

 

I am sorry if you find it vile.  But this is the real world.  These are real scenarios that the church needs to be prepared to address.  There are same sex couple who are legally married.  Everywhere.  My neighbors were legally married in Vermont and have three children.  I described a situation.  One that will occur with more and more frequency in the coming years.  The church must have answers. To date they do not.



#10 kindofblue1977

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:04 PM

I am not trying to debate here whether or not homosexuality is sinful.  I believe homosexual sex is sinful.  My question is what do we do with people and how do we bring Christ to them and what does that mean for their legal marriages and families? 



#11 TheSword

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:17 PM

I am not trying to debate here whether or not homosexuality is sinful.  I believe homosexual sex is sinful.  My question is what do we do with people and how do we bring Christ to them and what does that mean for their legal marriages and families? 

 

Gotcha, I completly understand what you're asking. My bottom-line answers is to treat the sin first because how they respond to that shows where their heart and will truly are. In order to be a member a biblically valid church, one must be born-again which involves faith and repentence. Refusing to acknowledge a sinful state is the opposite. It should be no different than dealing with someone in the church who has decided to seek a homosexual lifestyle...according to 1 Cor 5 they should be removed from the congregation until they change their way and come back to God with a repentent heart. In the case you're talking about they're already outside of the church, but that shouldn't change the way to join it. Open and defiant sin must be dealt with because it's not an education shortfall in the way that some people don't understand that a particular behavior is sinful.



#12 swathdiver

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:19 PM

Very real scenario:

 

Two women have lived together for 12 years in a same-sex relationship.  They have gone to another state to get legally married and now reside in your state.  Through in vitro fertilization and an anonymous sperm donor through a sperm bank, they have conceived and are raising three children, ages 6, 4 and 6 months.  They come to your church and would like to join.

 

What do you do?  What do you tell them?  What position should the church take on this?  This puts two sins in at odds.  Homosexuality and divorce.  Maybe.  Perhaps they have decided to remain celibate.  No one has ever asked my wife and I about our sex lives, so should we ask about theirs? 

 

I am curious to know what your advice would be.  Here we have three children who are well cared for, love their mothers, and are excelling in every area of life.  If you advise them to separate and "divorce" (that is what would occur, no matter what you call it), the children would be harmed.  If you advise them to stay together, do you tell them they have to be celibate?

 

How should the church address same-sex families in these situations?  How can the church possibly reach them if we advocate tearing their family apart? 

I am friends with a couple in this very situation. I never hear Christians talk about the realities, and am curious as to your thoughts:

 

1.  How do you know this couple is having sex, which is prohibited in the Bible?  If they are celibate, are they still sinning? 

 

2.  When children and assets are involved, and breaking them up, if you say that is what they must do, how do you decide who gets custody of children?  Who gets the house?  Who gets money in the bank account? 

 

I'm not interested in a debate as the morality or immorality of same-sex sex.  I am interested in the realities of people who are living as families and are legally married, and how the church should address these situations.  Do we just turn them away?  Do we maintain and respect their families and tell them to abstain from sex? 

 

The first thing for most all of those attending that Anglican church is to get saved the bible's way.  

 

The problems keep coming up for you KOB because the Bible is not your final authority for all matters of faith and practice.  If it was, you would be asking us (if you couldn't find it yourself) what the Lord says about something, not how a church should position themselves over a matter.  

 

A sound New Testament Church of the kind that Christ built and died for would never allow unregenerated people into the body of believers.  These ladies are living in unrepentant sin, period.

 

All you can do is show them from God's Word (your King James Bible) what he says about various questions they may have and pray for their salvation.  How they divide their assets and such, should they repent and trust Christ as Lord and Savior is their business, not yours or mine.  There is ZERO biblical justification for their remaining in this condition only that it is a bible truth that people take pleasure in sin.



#13 kindofblue1977

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:21 PM

Sword.  I see what you are saying, but what does that mean in this scenario?  Does it mean that the couple should separate?  If so, who decides how to divide their bank account?  Who keeps the house they purchased?  What if one was an income earner such as a doctor and the other a stay at home mother?  Should the doctor pay alimony to the stay at home mother? 

 

Who decides which spouse keeps the children?  Who decides visitation rights? 

 

How should the church answer all of these questions?  If the church say the couple must split and divorce, then it seems to me the church needs to have answers to these questions.



#14 TheSword

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:37 PM

Sword.  I see what you are saying, but what does that mean in this scenario?  Does it mean that the couple should separate?  If so, who decides how to divide their bank account?  Who keeps the house they purchased?  What if one was an income earner such as a doctor and the other a stay at home mother?  Should the doctor pay alimony to the stay at home mother? 

 

Who decides which spouse keeps the children?  Who decides visitation rights? 

 

How should the church answer all of these questions?  If the church say the couple must split and divorce, then it seems to me the church needs to have answers to these questions.

 

I disagree that it is on the church to answer such questions. As a secular insititution, homosexual marriage and subsequent divorce should be handled according to secular laws. Anything I offer on the topic is simply my opinion. Were I the pastor in such a case, the only thing I would even begin to weigh in on is to recommend (not decree) custody to the biological mother. Money and material is between the two parties. It must be understood that the church is not forcing a divorce, merely setting it as a condition for membership. They are free to choose not to seek church membership. One condition for people coming into my house is not to be drunk. Everyone has the choice to either not drink or sober up before knocking on my door, but I am in no way forcing them not to drink.



#15 kindofblue1977

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:46 PM

I can see not letting them join.  What policy should a church have as to their involvement if they choose to keep their family together?  Should their children be allowed to take part on children activities?  Should they, as a couple, be permitted to help out in the children's area?  Help prepare snacks for VBS?  Should they be allowed to volunteer in other roles in the church?  Or should they just be allowed to attend and not participate in anything? 



#16 Arbo

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:50 PM

I find the original post to be vile, wicked, and disgusting. I have reported it to the moderators and I hope it will be deleted.

 

You also do not think that those who have not 'checked' the IFB box ought not be allowed to post on this site.

 

I believe it is a valid question.  There is nothing wrong with seeking wisdom from other Christians.



#17 TheSword

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:52 PM

Same as other non-members I suppose. It is my opinion that in order to serve in any capacity with in the local church one must be member of it. Otherwise you're letting the unsaved represent the body of Christ, and that's untenable in every way. You can't equivocate on the minutia. They are either born-again church members or they are not. Additionally, you cannot hold the children accountable for the sins of the parents.



#18 swathdiver

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 04:53 PM

I can see not letting them join.  What policy should a church have as to their involvement if they choose to keep their family together?  Should their children be allowed to take part on children activities?  Should they, as a couple, be permitted to help out in the children's area?  Help prepare snacks for VBS?  Should they be allowed to volunteer in other roles in the church?  Or should they just be allowed to attend and not participate in anything? 

 

1 Corinthians 2:14   :icon_pray:


Edited by swathdiver, 21 April 2014 - 04:54 PM.


#19 Donillo

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:47 PM

The first thing for most all of those attending that Anglican church is to get saved the bible's way.

The problems keep coming up for you KOB because the Bible is not your final authority for all matters of faith and practice. If it was, you would be asking us (if you couldn't find it yourself) what the Lord says about something, not how a church should position themselves over a matter.

A sound New Testament Church of the kind that Christ built and died for would never allow unregenerated people into the body of believers. These ladies are living in unrepentant sin, period.

All you can do is show them from God's Word (your King James Bible) what he says about various questions they may have and pray for their salvation. How they divide their assets and such, should they repent and trust Christ as Lord and Savior is their business, not yours or mine. There is ZERO biblical justification for their remaining in this condition only that it is a bible truth that people take pleasure in sin.


But what about the law of love? You want to hit them over the head with the bible instead. How about loving them???

If I have not love, I am nothing Paul said. Love conquers all and covers a multitude of sins. There you have it, the Gospel.


#20 JimsHelpmeet

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:19 PM

But what about the law of love? You want to hit them over the head with the bible instead. How about loving them???

If I have not love, I am nothing Paul said. Love conquers all and covers a multitude of sins. There you have it, the Gospel.

It is not loving to let an unrepentant homosexual join in Christian fellowship with the body of believers, and especially not serving in any form of leadership, teaching, or ministry capacity. Love them, yes, but not their sin (which the Lord calls an abomination). Too many people are bound for hell, because well meaning people will love them straight to its gates with their doctrine that tickles ears and makes people feel warm and fuzzy. The most loving thing a Christian can do for an unbeliever is sit them down with the King James Bible and plant the seed. Let the Holy Spirit do the work from there. But if they refuse to repent (which means to literally turn away from their sin), there is no place in the fellowship of believers for them.






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