Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position

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The Satan led rebellion to which you refer (Rev. 20:9-10) does not in anyway disannul the Abrahamic or DAvidic covenants, so get over it.  Satan leads a rebellion, but is he successful?  Does he remove Israel from that land?  Does he usurp the throne of David and of Christ?  Absolutely not - they stay in the land, David and Christ stay on the throne, and following the final White Throne Judgment, they are placed on the New Earth, while we inhabit the New Jerusalem.  The promises ARE fulfilled, beginning at the return of Christ, through the 1,000 year reign of Christ on this earth, Christ suppresses one final uprising from Satan, and then we sail off into eternity.  Satan fails - he does not succeed.

 

Further, your claim that the OT promises are fulfilled in Christ deny the literal interpretation of the passages - II Sam 7 (David) and Gen. 15.  You quote Lev. 26, but it cannot be fulfilled in the church.  These promises are clearly physical promises of land and material wealth to a physical seed of Abraham, Isaac, and JacOB.  You just kind of gloss over that fact...and we keep reminding you of it.

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INvicta

One common theme in the prophets is a restoration of Israel after the judgments God sends. 

If what you said is true about the judgment of God being complete on Israel, and in the past, then when and where does the restoration of Israel take place? 

The restoration of Israel is not complete in the church, as this does not fulfill the covenants to Abraham and David concerning a physical remnant of Abraham, Isaac, and JacOB's seed living in the land granted to Abraham, Isaac, and JacOB, being ruled over by a physical descendant of David for eternity. 

 

That is why we see the final judgment of Israel as yet future (The tribulation period), followed by immediate restoration with Christ establishing His Kingdom on this present Earth following the Tribulation period.  He will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 19-20) from Jerusalem.

 

The tribulation on the Jews has lasted from that time till at least 1948.  There is an end prophecied to that judgment.  

 

Lu 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

Their captivity would end and Jerusalem would be free from foreign domination when the times of the gentiles would be fulfilled. That seems to begin to be fulfilled when Allenby marched into Jerusalem in Dec 1917.  You can see a film record of that momentous event here.  http://www.colonialfilm.org.uk/node/6131

 

1917 was year 1335 in the Muslim calendar, and some historicists believe that it was a fulfillment of Dan 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

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Invicta

 

 

That is why we see the final judgment of Israel as yet future (The tribulation period), followed by immediate restoration with Christ establishing His Kingdom on this present Earth following the Tribulation period.  He will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 19-20) from Jerusalem.

 

 

Is that so?

 

John 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

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All those things took place to that generation is true but there are some of those things that did not take place and that is where you are blind and or you don't know things to come.

 

a partial fulfillment is not a FULLfillment

 

OK,

 

Which things were fulfilled and which were not?

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Invicta

 

The restoration of Israel is not complete in the church, as this does not fulfill the covenants to Abraham and David concerning a physical remnant of Abraham, Isaac, and JacOB's seed living in the land granted to Abraham, Isaac, and JacOB, being ruled over by a physical descendant of David for eternity. 

 

 

Steve I am returning to your post to show where the restoration of Israel.

 

1 ¶  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7  What then? Israel hath not OBtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath OBtained it, and the rest were blinded
8  (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB:
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now OBtained mercy through their unbelief:
31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may OBtain mercy.
32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 ¶  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
 

The Jews were cast off in part while we gentiles were graffed in.  When the fullness of the gentiles has come in, they will be graffed in again.  That is the restoration of the Jews.  Read the passage carefully.

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The tribulation on the Jews has lasted from that time till at least 1948.  There is an end prophecied to that judgment.  

 

Lu 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

Their captivity would end and Jerusalem would be free from foreign domination when the times of the gentiles would be fulfilled. That seems to begin to be fulfilled when Allenby marched into Jerusalem in Dec 1917.  You can see a film record of that momentous event here.  http://www.colonialfilm.org.uk/node/6131

 

1917 was year 1335 in the Muslim calendar, and some historicists believe that it was a fulfillment of Dan 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

? 1900 years of tribulation  - "The tribulation on the Jews has lasted from that time till at least 1948.  There is an end prophecied to that judgment."

Then many of you project the uttermost wrath on the generation that rejected their Messiah & the Gospel ( 1 Thes. 2:16 ) to some future generation, to the extent that they will suffer intense tribulation from which only 1/3 will survive.

 

The Bible teaches that the generation that rejected Jesus & his Gospel would perish. God's wrath was completed, & thereafer the Gospel open to them freely. Why should 60 generations suffer for the sins on one generation? We know that the generation that blatantly & persistently rejected their Messiah, present in person, suffered, even for the sins of generations past (Mat. 23) Jesus was condemning them particularly for their own sin, that compound the sins of past generations.

 

We are living in Gospel days. Unbelieving Jews & Gentiles are welcomed by the Gospel, but if they persist in unbelief they will suffer in the judgement, NOT because they are Jews, but because they are unrepentance sinners.

Edited by Covenanter
Genevanpreacher likes this

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And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of

Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.  Rom 11:26-28

 

I will go and return to my place, until they acknowledge their offence,
and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.  Hos 5:15
 
Another "Covenant" is coming, and it applies to the nation of Israel (genetic Hebrews, in the 'Holy Land').
However, it will be at the point of extinction ....
Edited by beameup

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Posted · Report post

Why are you folk SO antisemitic? 

 

Ian, you don't like it when it's applied to you...don't apply it to others... :smug:

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Ian, you don't like it when it's applied to you...don't apply it to others... :smug:

 

I do think you might have meant me?

I posted about the reference to anti-semitism in most of the sites that pertained to 'replacement theology'.

 

And I think Ian used his question in a 'sarcastic/fun' type of question; because of

the amount of time suffering is to occur to the Jews in some of the 'scenarios' of some of these teachings.

 

And maybe a 'fair' question, too.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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I thought Ian was referring to me.

 

1Th 2:16  Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

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I do think you might have meant me?
I posted about the reference to anti-semitism in most of the sites that pertained to 'replacement theology'.
 
And I think Ian used his question in a 'sarcastic/fun' type of question; because of
the amount of time suffering is to occur to the Jews in some of the 'scenarios' of some of these teachings.
 
And maybe a 'fair' question, too.

No, I meant Ian. No, it isn't any more fair than when it was constantly being thrown at him.There's nothing fun about a fellow Christian being accused of antisemitism. So we aren't gonna go there, even in supposed jest.

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I have edited the offending post.

? 1900 years of tribulation  - "The tribulation on the Jews has lasted from that time till at least 1948.  There is an end prophecied to that judgment."

Then many of you project the uttermost wrath on the generation that rejected their Messiah & the Gospel ( 1 Thes. 2:16 ) to some future generation, to the extent that they will suffer intense tribulation from which only 1/3 will survive.

 

The Bible teaches that the generation that rejected Jesus & his Gospel would perish. God's wrath was completed, & thereafer the Gospel open to them freely. Why should 60 generations suffer for the sins on one generation? We know that the generation that blatantly & persistently rejected their Messiah, present in person, suffered, even for the sins of generations past (Mat. 23) Jesus was condemning them particularly for their own sin, that compound the sins of past generations.

 

We are living in Gospel days. Unbelieving Jews & Gentiles are welcomed by the Gospel, but if they persist in unbelief they will suffer in the judgement, NOT because they are Jews, but because they are unrepentance sinners.

 

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OK,

 

Which things were fulfilled and which were not?

Read and Rightly Divide the Major and Minor Prophets then you will have your answer.  If I do the work for you it will take pages upon pages of scripture quoted with highlights and underlines and many hours of study.  and if I did all the work you all would still not believe it. 

 

But I feel that if you will go through, study and highlight in two colors what took place and what did not in may of those books you will see and believe.

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Take this scripture for example.

 

Overall Jeremiah's prophecies of Israel beings scattered and desolate have taken place in the past as they went into Babylonian Captivity.

 

and the Lord Brought them back by the time of Christ but much of these verses never took place and even though they are back in the land they still have not taken place 

Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
 38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
 39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
 40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
 41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
 42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
 43 And fields shall be bought in this land, whereof ye say, It is desolate without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.
 44 Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.

 

Also where he said that when God brought them back they will dwell in peace without walled/fenced cities thought they are back they are not in peace and their cities are fenced and do not dwell safely.

 

All of this will happen after the Great Tribulation.  where Israel needs to be in the land to be scattered so the LORD can finish his chastisement and fulfill calling them back into the land to dwell in peace forever.  Not only that but the Time of JacOB's Trouble the Great Tribulation is also God pouring out his Wrath on the Nations which has not taken past in any event of the past that ends with Israel ruling over them forever.

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Take this scripture for example.

Overall Jeremiah's prophecies of Israel beings scattered and desolate have taken place in the past as they went into Babylonian Captivity.

and the Lord Brought them back by the time of Christ but much of these verses never took place and even though they are back in the land they still have not taken place
Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
43 And fields shall be bought in this land, whereof ye say, It is desolate without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.
44 Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.


Also where he said that when God brought them back they will dwell in peace without walled/fenced cities thought they are back they are not in peace and their cities are fenced and do not dwell safely.

All of this will happen after the Great Tribulation. where Israel needs to be in the land to be scattered so the LORD can finish his chastisement and fulfill calling them back into the land to dwell in peace forever. Not only that but the Time of JacOB's Trouble the Great Tribulation is also God pouring out his Wrath on the Nations which has not taken past in any event of the past that ends with Israel ruling over them forever.

The Great Tribulation is not the pouring out of God's Wrath.
Talk about dividing, and then you run 2 actual spelled out consecutive events, concurrently.

'Great Tribulation' , or part that includes the Saints, lasts this long:

Dan 12:12
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Jn 16:33
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation:but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Mat 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Rom 5:3
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also:knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Act 14:22
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 12:12
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

1Th 3:4
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Rev 1:9
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 2:9-10
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer:behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days:be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their rOBes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Jew and Gentile elect alike, in these passages, are all admonished to endure tribulation.

At the end of Tribulation, comes Wrath...

Jn 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Col 3:6
6 For which things 'sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disOBedience:

1Th 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:9-10
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Of course, it helps to discern that the chronology is repeated in Revelations.

Anishinaabe

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