Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position

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Posted (edited)

If I am wrong, and the Resurrection & Reaping happens before the Great Tribulation....I will have a pleasant surprise.

If a pretribber is wrong, their surprise will leave them almost completely unprepared for the Great Tribulation, and will be most unpleasant.

We both believe the "Falling away" and the Revelation of the Man of Sin occur, prior to and at the kickoff of the Great Tribulation.

Some of us believe that the reinception of Dispensational, Calvinistic ( never went away, I know), and Pretrib doctrine are leading to the falling away.

Certainly LOST people can't fall away, they were never there.

I believe it is the true churches that are falling away.

How many of us know of many children who have grown up IFB, who are unbelievers, or content to dwell among the Emergents?

Where I come from, it is upwards of
90% of IFB kids, will never darken the doorway of an IFB church, again, after reaching adulthood.

Improper Eschatology is not the sole reason for the falling away.
But, if we are truly nearing the end, then surely God is calling those who are truly following Him out from the falling away.

1Th 5:1-11
Chapter 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day:we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sOBer.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sOBer, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


Don't forget to comfort one another with the truth that we will not be overtaken as a thief in the night....only those who are not watching will be surprised.

Anishinaabe

 

This is untrue of my family, prophet.  Both my husband and I are survivalists.  In fact, before I was saved, survival is all I knew how to do.  Survival comes naturally to my husband and I, and his parents taught him survival skills growing up.  My parents taught me, as well, as they were products of the Great Depression.  We have taught our 23 year old son, what we know.  We are farmers at heart.   :)

In a year 1 1/2 my husband and I will be moving to the hills outside of Marietta, in the southeastern part of OH - one hour outside of Pittsburgh, PA.  BTW, when I say hills, I mean it.   ;)  IFB friends of ours are missionaries, and need our help to continue building the church they planted 4 years ago.  His nephew and their oldest son are the pastor and assistant pastor of the church now.  Our missionary friends were missionaries to Scotland and Europe, for many years.  They raised their 4 children in Scotland.  The two youngest girls were also born in Scotland.  They planted 4 IFB churches that are thriving there.  They are now raising support across the USA, and Canada, b/c when they planted the church in WV, they lost the support support of 12 IFB churches in the USA.  Unfortunately, many IFB churches would rather support foreign missionaries, rather than missionaries in the USA, where we need them most.  

My husband and I will get out the gospel and work physically on a building for a church located in OH.  He has found his calling. The church is WV is not actually a church.  It is a senior's center.  As you know, country folk are very down to earth.  They are also very generous people, as a whole.  Their church is growing.  

We are looking forward to moving to the country, where my husband will take his business, build a shop, and have Pastor Jim's oldest son work as an apprentice for my husband.  My husband apprenticed for a bit and worked for 16 years in an auto restoration shop until starting his business, in a warehouse he rents in a seedy part of Cleveland, OH.  He has been in business for himself since 2003.  He is in auto restoration, mainly restoring classic cars, and doing other restoration work.  We are excited to make a move like this.  We are buying property and building a pre-fab home on it along with his building.  We plan on storing needed items in the warehouse for survival.  We will stockpile, just like we do now.  However, there will be more of it.  You prOBably know the drill on that.  When we are persecuted, we will also have a better place to hide, unlike where we are now.  The land down there also sits on gas and oil reserves.  We will own the mineral rights.

Two times a year, we will also travel to Scotland to help them build the next church there.  This will be a new and exciting adventure for us.  We are looking forward to it. 

Edited by candlelight
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Posted

Those who have no clue to events in the Middle East and especially Israel are "asleep"

The "sticking point" in the U.S. led "negotians" is always Jerusalem (and the Temple Mount).

The fact that all the priests have been trained, all the priests' garments made,

all the implements made and even the construction materials to erect a "holy place &

most holy place" (in 3 days, using current technology), should sound an alarm for

any Spirit-filled Christian on the Planet.  There is a very simple "two state solution",

except for the disposition of Jerusalem (think "Berlin" following WWII).  Time is short.

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Posted

Pilgrim,

It does make a difference what you believe.  If we take your position, then how does a Pastor lead his congregation in matters of doctrine?  Paul showed the Ephesians "the WHOLE counsel of God, which includes eschatology.  I don't think the Lord set us adrift to guess at this stuff.  I Believe the Bible is crystal clear on it, as does the other side of this discussion.  That is why we debate it. 

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Posted (edited)

Brother, I agree it is doctrinally speaking of the kingdom gospel but there is no reason it cannot be spiritually applied to the church preaching the gospel of the grace of God. 

This is why right division is needed between Israel and the church, and then which church the Israel church or the Body of Christ church (they are different).  then between OT completion of God's scattering of Israel and bringing her back in to be at peace forever (never took place yet even after they came back as prophesied by Jeremiah and others).  Today Israel is set aside but when the body of Christ is gathered together with Christ in the clouds then Israel wont be set aside anymore.  then God will scatter them (that is why they are back in the land since 1948) and then he will come establish the kingdom (rev19) and call for the regathering of Israel into her land (OT prophets all spoke of this) where Israel shall serve God for ever from Jerusalem.    right division is a key to rightly understanding OT and NT prophecy.  the lack of division willblenditalltogether so you can't rightly understand and cause division on men over pre/post/a Millennial stands.

 

Right division leave you to only one conclusion the right one and the one held by Paul and the early church pre-trib/pre-wrath removal of the body of Christ and God finishing his work with Israel and unbelieving mankind.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever

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Posted (edited)

If I am wrong, and the Resurrection & Reaping happens before the Great Tribulation..

the gathering of the saints takes place the days or hours before before the son of perdition reveals himself.  and that Starts the Great Tribulation. the body of Christ bodies are raised in perfection.  The resurrection of those bodies is not the first or the second resurrection nor is it the resurrection of the last days.

 

The reaping of Revelation 14:13-20 is not a reaping of saved it is the reaping of unsaved living beings that will be thrown into the winepress of Gods wrath, this will take place near the end of the Great Tribulation. 

 

The First Resurrection is at the end of the Great tribulation Rev 20:1-5 (could be the resurrection of the last day).  the second resurrection if at the GWT Judgement Rev 20:11-15 (could be the resurrection of the last day, I think this one is it) 1,000 years after the first one.  this is where we get the term Millennial but the kingdom goes on into eternity.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever

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Posted

the gathering of the saints takes place the days or hours before before the son of perdition reveals himself. and that Starts the Great Tribulation. the body of Christ bodies are raised in perfection. The resurrection of those bodies is not the first or the second resurrection nor is it the resurrection of the last days.

The reaping of Revelation 14:13-20 is not a reaping of saved it is the reaping of unsaved living beings that will be thrown into the winepress of Gods wrath, this will take place near the end of the Great Tribulation.

The First Resurrection is at the end of the Great tribulation Rev 20:1-5 (could be the resurrection of the last day). the second resurrection if at the GWT Judgement Rev 20:11-15 (could be the resurrection of the last day, I think this one is it) 1,000 years after the first one. this is where we get the term Millennial but the kingdom goes on into eternity.

You are wrong:

2Th 2:1-3
Chapter 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

"That day shall not come, except..."

This is a definite timeline.
If definitely puts the "Gathering in the clouds" after the revelation of the Man of Sin.



Anishinaabe

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Posted

the gathering of the saints takes place the days or hours before before the son of perdition reveals himself. and that Starts the Great Tribulation. the body of Christ bodies are raised in perfection. The resurrection of those bodies is not the first or the second resurrection nor is it the resurrection of the last days.

The reaping of Revelation 14:13-20 is not a reaping of saved it is the reaping of unsaved living beings that will be thrown into the winepress of Gods wrath, this will take place near the end of the Great Tribulation.

The First Resurrection is at the end of the Great tribulation Rev 20:1-5 (could be the resurrection of the last day). the second resurrection if at the GWT Judgement Rev 20:11-15 (could be the resurrection of the last day, I think this one is it) 1,000 years after the first one. this is where we get the term Millennial but the kingdom goes on into eternity.

There are 2 reapings here:

Rev 14:14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap:for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And here:

Dan 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So, nice try, but you are still wrong.

Anishinaabe

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Posted

I still do not understand how this issue relates to salvation or whether one is a Christian.

 

God bless,

Larry

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Posted

Wow.  I've not read through all of this, but quite honestly, I don't bother myself with end times theology.  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  All else is just conjecture about what will likely happen long after we have passed from this earth. It is nothing to get worked up over.  :-)  What will come will come.  We have no control and no input into the matter.  All we can control is ourselves and our attitudes. 

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Get right or get left! 

 

We are told in Scriptures to always "be ready" because the Lord's coming for us in the Rapture (catching up) is imminent. 

 

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live sOBerly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

Being "ready" for the Lord's coming should provoke us to live godly.

 

The apostle John said:

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

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Posted

There are 2 reapings here:

Rev 14:14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap:for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And here:

Dan 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So, nice try, but you are still wrong.

Anishinaabe

Don't bother-I have tried to lay it out clearly, but many still insist that what Jesus does is reap, though leaving them there on earth, and somehow, then, the angel comes and gathers that which has been reaped, from the vine of the earth, (you don't reap grapes),  and casts them into the winepress of wrath. It makes no sense but it makes people feel better.

 

One reaping, which INCLUDES gathering, of a crop, and one gathering from a vine.

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Posted

Mike

There is more than one "rapture."  That is where the "confusion" comes in, but only when we fail to "rightly divide."  The raptures spoken of in the Gospels have nothing to do with the rapture of the church spoken of in I Thess. 4:13-18 - they are two separate events.

The reaping performed by the Lord in Revelation 14 is a "rapture" of the Tribulation saints, caught out just prior to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  There is in fact a "pre-wrath" rapture - but that rapture is not the church, but Tribulation saints.

 

In Christ,

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Pilgrim

The Bible is about more than ONLY salvation.  Salvation is a part of the Bible, but not the main subject of the Bible.  Think of it this way - the Bible ends in Revelation, not in the Gospel of John.  There is a lot of doctrine between John and Revelation, and we are to be students of those doctrines. 

And where does Revelation end, at the Cross? or with an eternal kingdom? 

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Pilgrim,

It does make a difference what you believe.  If we take your position, then how does a Pastor lead his congregation in matters of doctrine?  Paul showed the Ephesians "the WHOLE counsel of God, which includes eschatology.  I don't think the Lord set us adrift to guess at this stuff.  I Believe the Bible is crystal clear on it, as does the other side of this discussion.  That is why we debate it. 

 

What is discussed here is not bible doctrine, but personal interpretation.  I was taught this interpretation when I was in the Brethren for many years.  

 

The last Brethren preacher I heard was about 4 years ago.  A really nice christian who died shortly after.  My wife and I still visit his disabled wife when we can and take her CDs of our services.

 

On the last occasion, he said that when Jesus returned as in Acts 1, he would only be coming to the Jews, as Jesus was only speaking to Jews.  Wrong.  He was speaking to the apostles who were the leaders of the church.  

 

We read in some of these posts that Matthew 24 was only regarding Jews as Jesus was speaking only to Jews,  Again wrong.  He was speaking to those he called to be the leaders of the church.

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Pilgrim

The Bible is about more than ONLY salvation.  Salvation is a part of the Bible, but not the main subject of the Bible.  Think of it this way - the Bible ends in Revelation, not in the Gospel of John.  There is a lot of doctrine between John and Revelation, and we are to be students of those doctrines. 

And where does Revelation end, at the Cross? or with an eternal kingdom? 

True the bible is about far more than salvation.  But my point is this: Is the number one jOB of the Church to preach the gospel in order that sinners might be saved and equip those saved to do the same or is it to equip the saved to teach the rapture doctrine?  It seems to me that far too much time is spent on rapture and too little on salvation.  It also seems that the importance of teaching the rapture doctrine has become more important than believers being one in Christ.  It is splitting us apart at a time when we ought to be working together to  "Get the gospel out" and we ought to be "Putting the cookies down where the children can reach them."

 

God bless,

Larry

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We are to teach sound doctrine, and especially in the last days when many will fall away from sound doctrine.

The LOCAL CHURCH is to be unified in their doctrine and ministry, but the Body of Christ will never be unified until the return of Jesus Christ. 

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Rev 14 really isnt that confusing even as a pre-trib..but you need at least verses 12 and 13.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

-- The few remaining pieces of wheat (those who have come to Christ in these times, and those martyred are reaped up and given blessing and rest)

Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Vine of the Earth is something different here, that was then cast into the winepress, thus the fruit of Satan is matured to its point and is now cast into judgment.

seems like the most straight forward approach to me. :hide:



 

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Posted

I still do not understand how this issue relates to salvation or whether one is a Christian.

God bless,
Larry

Read the Thread Title.
This is a discussion on Eschatology.
Find a thread on Salvation.
Be Happy.

:)

Anishinaabe

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Get right or get left!

We are told in Scriptures to always "be ready" because the Lord's coming for us in the Rapture (catching up) is imminent.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live sOBerly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Being "ready" for the Lord's coming should provoke us to live godly.

The apostle John said:

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Neither the word "rapture", nor the word "imminent" are found in Scripture.

So try again to express yourself without manmade doctrinal words.

For instance, take away the word "imminent". Now search the Scriptures for a synonym, or synonymous concept, concerning our Lord's Return.

Call it the Resurrection, and not 'rapture', which is an abstract noun, anyway, and doesn't make sense in English as an event.
Search the Scriptures concerning the Resurrection.
You'll find 1 for the living, and one for the dead.

It will help.

Anishinaabe

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Posted

Mike
There is more than one "rapture." That is where the "confusion" comes in, but only when we fail to "rightly divide." The raptures spoken of in the Gospels have nothing to do with the rapture of the church spoken of in I Thess. 4:13-18 - they are two separate events.
The reaping performed by the Lord in Revelation 14 is a "rapture" of the Tribulation saints, caught out just prior to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is in fact a "pre-wrath" rapture - but that rapture is not the church, but Tribulation saints.

In Christ,

There are no "raptures", there are resurrections.
Are you claiming that the dead won't rise at our gathering in the clouds?
Even your pet verses, that gives NO timeline, IThes., tells us it is a resurrection, not a rapture.

Rapture is a euphoric feeling, Resurrection is an event.

Anishinaabe

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Read the Thread Title.
This is a discussion on Eschatology.
Find a thread on Salvation.
Be Happy.

:)

Anishinaabe

It would have taken less words to just say, "get lost".

 

God bless,

Larry

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What is discussed here is not bible doctrine, but personal interpretation. I was taught this interpretation when I was in the Brethren for many years.

The last Brethren preacher I heard was about 4 years ago. A really nice christian who died shortly after. My wife and I still visit his disabled wife when we can and take her CDs of our services.

On the last occasion, he said that when Jesus returned as in Acts 1, he would only be coming to the Jews, as Jesus was only speaking to Jews. Wrong. He was speaking to the apostles who were the leaders of the church.

We read in some of these posts that Matthew 24 was only regarding Jews as Jesus was speaking only to Jews, Again wrong. He was speaking to those he called to be the leaders of the church.

It was less than a week til His Resurrection, the first fruits of the coming harvest.
40 days after that, these same men began to turn the world upside, for the Church.
Jesus used the Word church in Matthew , prior to Matthew 24.
Matthew 24 was a private conversation with His Apostles of His Church.
Yet we are supposed to think that Jesus left out the little bit about them, the Apostles of His Church, not going through the Tribulation that He was warning them of.
Why would He warn them of this?
Why wouldn't He have told them of the Rescue at the last minute?
They werent gonna go through it, anyway.
They weren't even gonna be under Jewish law for 40 more years.

What difference did 50 days make?

Certainly all those Gentiles that got saved on Pentecost were gonna get confused by their leaders telling them that the Lord's Return would be preceded by the Great Tribulation, Right?

Anishinaabe

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I see allot of ideas (no passages of Scripture) that clearly explain why a small amount of folks might take a shaky stand against a pretrib catching away of the Church.

 

There are no single verses or passages of Scripture that directly say when this event will occur for any side of the argument.

 

Having said that, this is the sound way to realize the Bible truth on the subject.

 

The far greater amount of Scriptural evidence points to a pre trib catching away.

 

Some but a far smaller amount of evidence points to a pre wrath

 

ZERO evidence points to a post trib or mil.

 

All sides of the argument are basically conjecture but the greater amount of Bible evidence points to a pre trib catching away of the Church.

 

Anyone on here with the time could match any one passage of pre wrath with 5 or more pre trib. The amils have nothing but fantasizing in their approach.

 

This is a preponderance of evidence argument and not a beyond a reasonable doubt argument.

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It would have taken less words to just say, "get lost".

God bless,
Larry

I don't want you to get lost.
I believe in Eternal Security, anyways.

;)

It just seems strange to complain about the subject matter of a particular thread, when you can go find a thread about that.

If you think there is an unimportant doctrine, in Scripture, tell me which one it is.

2Ti 4:2
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.



Anishinaabe

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True the bible is about far more than salvation.  But my point is this: Is the number one jOB of the Church to preach the gospel in order that sinners might be saved and equip those saved to do the same or is it to equip the saved to teach the rapture doctrine?  It seems to me that far too much time is spent on rapture and too little on salvation.  It also seems that the importance of teaching the rapture doctrine has become more important than believers being one in Christ.  It is splitting us apart at a time when we ought to be working together to  "Get the gospel out" and we ought to be "Putting the cookies down where the children can reach them."

 

God bless,

Larry

 

I don't want you to get lost.
I believe in Eternal Security, anyways.

;)

It just seems strange to complain about the subject matter of a particular thread, when you can go find a thread about that.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Maybe it really doesn't sound as strange as you make it sound.  Maybe if you could get past using childish sarcasm and engage in an adult conversation this would be a much friendlier place.

If you do not wish to engage seriously with another poster it would be more polite to just ignore the post. 

 

I will state the question plain enough that you can't mistake what it is about this time.

 

This thread has gotten really nasty, with name calling, impolite jabs, and just plain unfriendly behavior.  Now you might come up with some kind of argument that this is all good for the cause of Christ but I certainly hope not.  I do not see how God is glorified by what has been taking place here. 

 

Oh, and by the way, you win I am gone from this thread because I don't believe it is a place for an intelligent Christian conversation.

 

God bless,

Larry

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