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Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


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#81 DaveW

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:33 AM

Sorry - I got my information from his website.

From Ariel Ministries Doctrinal Statement


Which is exactly my point - if you have bothered to pay attention to the 'dispensationalists' currently polluting this site you get a very different thing from what is spoken of in that quote.
Under the current circumstances on this site, that distinction needs to be made.

I make no comment on his wife-bride thoughts..........

#82 MountainChristian

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 12:42 PM

In Rev 4 John sees the door and gets to look around. In Rev 5 John sees the book and the one who can open the book and unleash the wrath of God. In Rev 6, John sees all the bad things happening to mankind and even mankind says the wrath of God is come. Mike in your mind you move from chapter 4 "come up hither" to where? When the book is opened God's wrath begins, those aren't blessings from God. While John is looking around in chapter 4, and seeing the Lamb in chapter 5 how much "earth time" is passing? How did you arrive at that amount of time?



#83 Genevanpreacher

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:56 PM

I heard years ago, while a yungin' that Pre-Trib was invented by a woman. A charismatic woman at that. Don't remember her name, but it would probably be recognizable if anyone had any info.

Not saying it was true, but that is the 'skinny'. Might have been in the prewrath info back in the '80's.

Anyone ever hear that?

 

Found it... Margaret McDonald in or about 1830.


Edited by Genevanpreacher, 27 April 2014 - 02:01 PM.


#84 LindaR

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 02:54 PM

I read the entire Doctrinal Statement of Ariel Ministries and found this under the "Salvation" and "Man: Created & Fallen" statements:

 

Salvation

Section One - The Means of Salvation

 

We believe that salvation is wholly a work of God's free grace and not the work of man in whole or in part, nor due to man's goodness or religious ceremony; that it is a gift to man received by personal faith at which time the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the sinner, thereby justifying him in God's sight; that those who are saved have been unconditionally elected to salvation in eternity past and have been effectively and irresistibly called by the Holy Spirit.

 

Man: Created & Fallen

 

We believe that man was created in the image of God; that he fell through sin and lost his spiritual life; that he is dead in his trespasses and sins and, hence, is totally depraved; that this fallen nature is transmitted to every descendent of Adam, the man Christ Jesus excepted; that man has no spark of divine life and is unchangeable apart from divine grace.

 

 

According to those statements in their Doctrinal Statement, Ariel Ministries believes and teaches a 4 point TULIP Calvinism theology. 

 

Total depravity (total inability)

Unconditional Election

Limited Atonement

Irresistible Grace

 

What type of "dispensational" teaching do they present?.  Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum did not always believe and teach TULIP Calvinism.  His writings before 2000 were very traditional pro-Israel and traditional dispensational.  I believe Ariel Ministries teaches a very confusing and mixed theology...mixing Calvinsm (TULIP) with dispensationalism...but really not defining the type of dispensationalism being taught.

 

 

 

 


Edited by LindaR, 27 April 2014 - 02:59 PM.


#85 Covenanter

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:11 PM

I didn't want to discuss Fruchtenbaum but in response to another post here, I found his teaching on the wife of Jehovah & bride of Christ which I encountered years ago. I think you can safely add the P of TULIP to his beliefs - we all agree on that.



#86 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:38 PM

Genevan

 

I heard that there was a guy that lived several hundred years ago that taught that Revelation was past history, that there was only one kingdom, that the church replaced Israel, and that the church would "bring the kingdom in." 

I can't remember his name...

 

Oh yeah...

 

The great heretic Augustine, whose theology helped the RCC usher in the Dark Ages.

 

Just sayin'

 

I have an idea. 

If you can't substantiate something, then why continue to promote it as if it were true?  You passed on second hand information, and it appears from your statement that you never checked it to see if it was true or not....so why spread it here?

As to my comment about Augustine, it is an historical fact that can very easily be documented.


Edited by Steve Schwenke, 27 April 2014 - 04:41 PM.


#87 Covenanter

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:52 PM

In Rev. 1, John is told he is being given visions for the encouragement of his companions in tribulation, & the assurance of their high position in Christ: kings and priests unto God and his Father; further, he is in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ as we all are: hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (Col. 1.) How many Kingdoms are there? Obviously that kingdom relationship is spiritual, even though Jesus Christ, [who] is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Jesus is King & has all power in heaven & earth.

 

The vision in Rev. 4 & 5 reassures John that he & his tribulation companions are on the victory side - the Lion-Lamb HAS prevailed to be worshipped with his Father: Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 

 

When we move to Rev. 6, & the book is opened, what does John expect to see? Surely the activities of the triumphant Lion-Lamb executing judgement? And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. He has gained the victory over Satan, death & hell, and is implementing that victory by the deliverance of his redeemed people & judgement of his enemies. Jesus has the crown, the white horse, & until he returns he implements his victory in time by saving sinners, translating them into his kingdom.

 

The opened seals reveal the plan of campaign - the judgement of his enemies to be put into action, as John sees further visions.

 

Back to the beginning of Rev. we see that the events must shortly come to pass; ..... for the time is at hand. If we allow Jesus to mean what he says, the events are to take place within the lifetime of John & his readers, not thousands of years away. Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in Luke 21 - the Olivet prophecy. That is not recorded in Acts, but must take place before what Jesus repeated calls this generation passes. 

 

Revelation was therefore written before AD 70, & is concerned with the judgement of the Jews who rejected him, & the Apostolic Gospel. Note Ezekiel prophesies:

14:21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. 23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God.

 

Jesus warns the Jewish Christians of the signs before the destruction - history records that they did escape the city. Rev. 7 shows the faithful Jews sealed before the destruction - the firstfruits.

 

Ultimately all wicked & wickedness will be removed from the Kingdom, but in this age of grace, the wicked - tares - are allowed to live - but harvest is coming. (Rev. 14)

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 



#88 Invicta

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:57 PM

I read the entire Doctrinal Statement of Ariel Ministries and found this under the "Salvation" and "Man: Created & Fallen" statements:

 

According to those statements in their Doctrinal Statement, Ariel Ministries believes and teaches a 4 point TULIP Calvinism theology. 

 

Total depravity (total inability)

Unconditional Election

Limited Atonement

Irresistible Grace

 

What type of "dispensational" teaching do they present?.  Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum did not always believe and teach TULIP Calvinism.  His writings before 2000 were very traditional pro-Israel and traditional dispensational.  I believe Ariel Ministries teaches a very confusing and mixed theology...mixing Calvinsm (TULIP) with dispensationalism...but really not defining the type of dispensationalism being taught.

 

 

No problem there, J N Darby, known as 'the father of dispensationalism' was a Calvinist.



#89 Genevanpreacher

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:46 PM

Genevan

 

I heard that there was a guy that lived several hundred years ago that taught that Revelation was past history, that there was only one kingdom, that the church replaced Israel, and that the church would "bring the kingdom in." 

I can't remember his name...

 

Oh yeah...

 

The great heretic Augustine, whose theology helped the RCC usher in the Dark Ages.

 

Just sayin'

 

I have an idea. 

If you can't substantiate something, then why continue to promote it as if it were true?  You passed on second hand information, and it appears from your statement that you never checked it to see if it was true or not....so why spread it here?

As to my comment about Augustine, it is an historical fact that can very easily be documented.

 

Its called 'conversation', and part of my past that I was sharing.

Good grief Charlie Brown, don't get so offended, it was just a comment. :clapping: Look and see, I edited it after I found her name.


Edited by Genevanpreacher, 27 April 2014 - 06:52 PM.


#90 Jordan G

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:48 PM

cant believe all the hate against dispensation theology.


Edited by Gorship, 27 April 2014 - 11:12 PM.


#91 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:25 PM

Genevan - rumors and gossip are not a welcomed part of a conversation.  There is nothing to substantiate your claim.  So does it add any value to the conversation? 

NO

So that's why I commented...let's keep the subject of the conversation on topic, and not throw out rumors and unsubstantiated claims.  These are mindless distractions, and yet another attempt to label dispensationalism as a man-made theory instead of Bible doctrine.  These tactics by the people on your side of the argument grow very wearisome and tiring.  Your side overlooks and dismisses any connections to "man" as the source of their doctrine so that you can appear to be more "Biblical."  Then, to discredit our side or the argument, your side is constantly attaching man's name to our theology as if NOBODY ever taught this apart from these "men."

 

It is sickening and nauseating, and is a very large part of why I dropped out of these conversations.  



#92 prophet1

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:33 PM

No problem there, J N Darby, known as 'the father of dispensationalism' was a Calvinist.

He came up with the Dispensational Teachings to defend Calvinism, which is maybe even worse.

Anishinaabe



#93 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:42 PM

Yep - here we go again with the name slinging. 

Darby did not "invent" dispensationalism.  He merely systematized what many others had been teaching before him.  There are many Bible Believing Christians who held to some form of dispensationalism long before Darby was even born.  So get over it already.

 

So I guess I'll start calling all of the covenant/replacement theology holders here "Origenites" or "Augustinites?" 

 

Neah....too childish.

 

Let's grow up people!



#94 wretched

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 09:48 PM

Anyone who cannot see the blatant differences in how God has dealt with man throughout the ages of HIStory and into the future, is completely brainwashed by men. Men call it dispensationalism, I call it rightly dividing His Word (I call it that because God calls it that).

 

IMO, anyone who blends the Bible all together to attempt to serve the Lord or understand the Word stays in a constant state of confusion and actually seems to stay in a constant state of denial about their confusion.



#95 DaveW

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:10 PM

As has been clearly displayed on this site lately, there is dispensationalism and then there is dispensationalism......

#96 Covenanter

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 12:49 AM

Which is exactly my point - if you have bothered to pay attention to the 'dispensationalists' currently polluting this site you get a very different thing from what is spoken of in that quote.
Under the current circumstances on this site, that distinction needs to be made.

I make no comment on his wife-bride thoughts..........

 

 

Later post:

As has been clearly displayed on this site lately, there is dispensationalism and then there is dispensationalism......

Sorry - are you accusing dispensationalists of polluting this forum? Who should I pay attention to? And who are you accusing of "polluting?"



#97 beameup

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 10:47 AM

If you look at any tract, it makes no mention of the Kingdom.

The gospel of the Kingdom is all about the Millennium - Messiah ruling from Jerusalem.

Gentiles don't need to here about that at present..  The Kingdom will be preached during the Tribulation by Jews.


Edited by beameup, 28 April 2014 - 10:49 AM.


#98 prophet1

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:51 AM

If you look at any tract, it makes no mention of the Kingdom.
The gospel of the Kingdom is all about the Millennium - Messiah ruling from Jerusalem.
Gentiles don't need to here about that at present.. The Kingdom will be preached during the Tribulation by Jews.

Show me 1 shred of evidence, in Scripture, that puts Jews preaching the Gospel during the Great Tribulation.

The Jews are going to lead the charge, with their false messiah, against the Christians.

Anishinaabe



#99 Jordan G

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 08:09 PM

More post tribs on here than I thought... I almost feel alone being a pretrib


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#100 MatthewDiscipleOfGod

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 08:17 PM

More post tribs on here than I thought... I almost feel alone being a pretrib


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I'm pretrib and most of the IFB I know in real life are pretrib. For some reason there is a group of Reformed that like to hang out here. I choose not to debate them.






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