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Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


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#141 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:39 PM

We are to teach sound doctrine, and especially in the last days when many will fall away from sound doctrine.

The LOCAL CHURCH is to be unified in their doctrine and ministry, but the Body of Christ will never be unified until the return of Jesus Christ. 



#142 Jordan G

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 08:20 PM

Rev 14 really isnt that confusing even as a pre-trib..but you need at least verses 12 and 13.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

-- The few remaining pieces of wheat (those who have come to Christ in these times, and those martyred are reaped up and given blessing and rest)

Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Vine of the Earth is something different here, that was then cast into the winepress, thus the fruit of Satan is matured to its point and is now cast into judgment.

seems like the most straight forward approach to me. :hide:



 



#143 prophet1

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:50 PM

I still do not understand how this issue relates to salvation or whether one is a Christian.

God bless,
Larry

Read the Thread Title.
This is a discussion on Eschatology.
Find a thread on Salvation.
Be Happy.

:)

Anishinaabe



#144 prophet1

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:55 PM

Get right or get left!

We are told in Scriptures to always "be ready" because the Lord's coming for us in the Rapture (catching up) is imminent.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Being "ready" for the Lord's coming should provoke us to live godly.

The apostle John said:

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Neither the word "rapture", nor the word "imminent" are found in Scripture.

So try again to express yourself without manmade doctrinal words.

For instance, take away the word "imminent". Now search the Scriptures for a synonym, or synonymous concept, concerning our Lord's Return.

Call it the Resurrection, and not 'rapture', which is an abstract noun, anyway, and doesn't make sense in English as an event.
Search the Scriptures concerning the Resurrection.
You'll find 1 for the living, and one for the dead.

It will help.

Anishinaabe



#145 prophet1

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:03 PM

Mike
There is more than one "rapture." That is where the "confusion" comes in, but only when we fail to "rightly divide." The raptures spoken of in the Gospels have nothing to do with the rapture of the church spoken of in I Thess. 4:13-18 - they are two separate events.
The reaping performed by the Lord in Revelation 14 is a "rapture" of the Tribulation saints, caught out just prior to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is in fact a "pre-wrath" rapture - but that rapture is not the church, but Tribulation saints.

In Christ,

There are no "raptures", there are resurrections.
Are you claiming that the dead won't rise at our gathering in the clouds?
Even your pet verses, that gives NO timeline, IThes., tells us it is a resurrection, not a rapture.

Rapture is a euphoric feeling, Resurrection is an event.

Anishinaabe



#146 ThePilgrim

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:10 PM

Read the Thread Title.
This is a discussion on Eschatology.
Find a thread on Salvation.
Be Happy.

:)

Anishinaabe

It would have taken less words to just say, "get lost".

 

God bless,

Larry



#147 prophet1

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:14 PM

What is discussed here is not bible doctrine, but personal interpretation. I was taught this interpretation when I was in the Brethren for many years.

The last Brethren preacher I heard was about 4 years ago. A really nice christian who died shortly after. My wife and I still visit his disabled wife when we can and take her CDs of our services.

On the last occasion, he said that when Jesus returned as in Acts 1, he would only be coming to the Jews, as Jesus was only speaking to Jews. Wrong. He was speaking to the apostles who were the leaders of the church.

We read in some of these posts that Matthew 24 was only regarding Jews as Jesus was speaking only to Jews, Again wrong. He was speaking to those he called to be the leaders of the church.

It was less than a week til His Resurrection, the first fruits of the coming harvest.
40 days after that, these same men began to turn the world upside, for the Church.
Jesus used the Word church in Matthew , prior to Matthew 24.
Matthew 24 was a private conversation with His Apostles of His Church.
Yet we are supposed to think that Jesus left out the little bit about them, the Apostles of His Church, not going through the Tribulation that He was warning them of.
Why would He warn them of this?
Why wouldn't He have told them of the Rescue at the last minute?
They werent gonna go through it, anyway.
They weren't even gonna be under Jewish law for 40 more years.

What difference did 50 days make?

Certainly all those Gentiles that got saved on Pentecost were gonna get confused by their leaders telling them that the Lord's Return would be preceded by the Great Tribulation, Right?

Anishinaabe



#148 wretched

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:21 PM

I see allot of ideas (no passages of Scripture) that clearly explain why a small amount of folks might take a shaky stand against a pretrib catching away of the Church.

 

There are no single verses or passages of Scripture that directly say when this event will occur for any side of the argument.

 

Having said that, this is the sound way to realize the Bible truth on the subject.

 

The far greater amount of Scriptural evidence points to a pre trib catching away.

 

Some but a far smaller amount of evidence points to a pre wrath

 

ZERO evidence points to a post trib or mil.

 

All sides of the argument are basically conjecture but the greater amount of Bible evidence points to a pre trib catching away of the Church.

 

Anyone on here with the time could match any one passage of pre wrath with 5 or more pre trib. The amils have nothing but fantasizing in their approach.

 

This is a preponderance of evidence argument and not a beyond a reasonable doubt argument.



#149 prophet1

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:24 PM

It would have taken less words to just say, "get lost".

God bless,
Larry

I don't want you to get lost.
I believe in Eternal Security, anyways.

;)

It just seems strange to complain about the subject matter of a particular thread, when you can go find a thread about that.

If you think there is an unimportant doctrine, in Scripture, tell me which one it is.

2Ti 4:2
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.



Anishinaabe



#150 ThePilgrim

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:46 PM

True the bible is about far more than salvation.  But my point is this: Is the number one job of the Church to preach the gospel in order that sinners might be saved and equip those saved to do the same or is it to equip the saved to teach the rapture doctrine?  It seems to me that far too much time is spent on rapture and too little on salvation.  It also seems that the importance of teaching the rapture doctrine has become more important than believers being one in Christ.  It is splitting us apart at a time when we ought to be working together to  "Get the gospel out" and we ought to be "Putting the cookies down where the children can reach them."

 

God bless,

Larry

 

I don't want you to get lost.
I believe in Eternal Security, anyways.

;)

It just seems strange to complain about the subject matter of a particular thread, when you can go find a thread about that.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Maybe it really doesn't sound as strange as you make it sound.  Maybe if you could get past using childish sarcasm and engage in an adult conversation this would be a much friendlier place.

If you do not wish to engage seriously with another poster it would be more polite to just ignore the post. 

 

I will state the question plain enough that you can't mistake what it is about this time.

 

This thread has gotten really nasty, with name calling, impolite jabs, and just plain unfriendly behavior.  Now you might come up with some kind of argument that this is all good for the cause of Christ but I certainly hope not.  I do not see how God is glorified by what has been taking place here. 

 

Oh, and by the way, you win I am gone from this thread because I don't believe it is a place for an intelligent Christian conversation.

 

God bless,

Larry



#151 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:49 PM

I Thess 4:16-17

v. 16 "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first."  RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

v. 17 "Then we which ARE ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

v. 17 - is not a "resurrection" for those saints will be CAUGHT UP without DYING.  They will be CHANGED, but not killed then resurrected.

 

If you look up the word "rapture" in Webster's 1828, the first and third definitions fit nicely.  We are taken up out of this world quickly, suddenly, with no warning, and literally just ripped right out of this world, and changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye."  I don't see a problem with using the word since it is descriptive of what the Bible says will happen.  the Bible term in this passage is "caught up."  People who are alive at the time are not resurrected, they are taken and changed.



#152 Covenanter

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 05:40 AM

I see allot of ideas (no passages of Scripture) that clearly explain why a small amount of folks might take a shaky stand against a pretrib catching away of the Church.

 

There are no single verses or passages of Scripture that directly say when this event will occur for any side of the argument.

Read the Olivet prophecy e.g. -

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done

The great tribulation preceeds the destruction that took place in the life of many.    

 

Having said that, this is the sound way to realize the Bible truth on the subject.

 

The far greater amount of Scriptural evidence points to a pre trib catching away.

Read before "realizing." Jesus very clearly warns about the destruction & the great tribulation, & he gives clear instructions about how to recognise the signs when they should flee the city - as history records they did.

 

Some but a far smaller amount of evidence points to a pre wrath

How do you understand the words of Jesus when, speaking against the Jewish leaders (who recognised what he was saying against them) said, Mark 12:And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. 10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: 11 this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Paul writes of that in this way: 1 Thes. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God

which in Judæa are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

That ad 70 event ENDS the wrath of God against "this generation." Why should a just & loving God perpetuate wrath against his people for 100 generations for the guilt of others? The Gospel is open to the Jews until Jesus returns despite the hate of corrupt churches down the ages. Jews are welcomed by the Gospel of Jesus when they come as sinners to him. And NO! God is not planning the future slaughter of them in a future trib. Unbelievers will be judged when Jesus comes for the resurrection/rapture for the saints. They will then suffer endless tribulation in hell.

2 Thes. 1:seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

  

  Must go.

ZERO evidence points to a post trib or mil.

 

All sides of the argument are basically conjecture but the greater amount of Bible evidence points to a pre trib catching away of the Church.

 

Anyone on here with the time could match any one passage of pre wrath with 5 or more pre trib. The amils have nothing but fantasizing in their approach.

 

This is a preponderance of evidence argument and not a beyond a reasonable doubt argument.



#153 prophet1

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 07:41 AM

I Thess 4:16-17
v. 16 "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first." RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
v. 17 "Then we which ARE ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: so shall we ever be with the Lord."

v. 17 - is not a "resurrection" for those saints will be CAUGHT UP without DYING. They will be CHANGED, but not killed then resurrected.

If you look up the word "rapture" in Webster's 1828, the first and third definitions fit nicely. We are taken up out of this world quickly, suddenly, with no warning, and literally just ripped right out of this world, and changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." I don't see a problem with using the word since it is descriptive of what the Bible says will happen. the Bible term in this passage is "caught up." People who are alive at the time are not resurrected, they are taken and changed.

My point was you can't cross reference the non-Scriptural word "rapture".
Because the event is a Resurrection, you can cross reference that word.



Anishinaabe



#154 candlelight

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:12 AM

Wow.  I've not read through all of this, but quite honestly, I don't bother myself with end times theology.  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  All else is just conjecture about what will likely happen long after we have passed from this earth. It is nothing to get worked up over.  :-)  What will come will come.  We have no control and no input into the matter.  All we can control is ourselves and our attitudes. 

KOB, that saying comes right out of the RCC.  I sang it growing up.  I think I had it memorized when a made the sacrament of first communion, in the second grade.  That is the sacrament right after first reconciliation (the same age, which is 7) where I had to confess my sins to the priest.  First communion is where the RCC practices substantiation where they believe the wine is the actual blood of Christ and the wafer is Jesus' body.  My mom used to say the priest in not Houdini.  The RCC uses witchcraft right on the alter with substantiation.  I had to drink fermented wine when I was 7.  Who gives alcohol to a 7 year old?  I mean, really?  Anyway, many Protestant churches say,  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  The RCC dogma has bleed over into many Protestant churches.   



#155 Calvary

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:44 AM

Lots of twists and a major loss of consistency, which is what usually happens after 3 or 4 pages on a thread. It gets too demanding to follow as one wades through. In addition what you have is 1 or a couple of posters that dominate (nothing wrong with that, just saying) the conversation but they take on 2 or 3 other posters and it´s 1 guy arguing with 3 or 4 other guys over 2 or 3 other rabbit trails and the entirety continuity of the thread falls apart.

 

7 pages ago I asked you Mike where does the JCOC fit. You sort of played the importance of that down as if it really doesn´t matter.

But i does. It matters so much that I have yet to receive an answer form any pre wrath, post trib position to date.

You can´t place it in your scheme as it will demonstrate the fallacy of your position.

 

So, I still would like an answer.

 

Or at least encourage you to try to find it for yourself. If you did and do, you will dump the untenable potion you hold.

 

When does the JCOC occur?

 

In addition, I have not questioned your Christianity or salvation and neither has any one else here. You suggested that we question your IFB status, your faith etc. None of which is true.

In fact I mad eit a point to say that I don´t question your integrity or character as I do not know you personally and that is and never has been an issue.

 

I do wonder however why you seek to moderate a board that you are not in agreement with? Pre trib is the stated doctrinal position of this board. I also question why Matt has not weighed in on this obvious conflict of interest.

 

Pre trib, pre wrath, post trib are by no means tests of fellowship, or a true test of one´s relationship with the Lord.

 

As a missionary I plant churches, then as they grow, mature and become autonomous I seek God´s will for a replacement of myself to lead the flock. Mike, I don´t care how faithful you might have been to the Lord, how active in the work and what a grand testimony you might have before the brethren. I would not however consider you as a candidate to any church that I have personally planted. How could I? What would that convey to the church I have pastored for x amount of years? Would that not necessarily be a major contradiction of myself before the flock?

 

Your position by my way of understanding is dead wrong, you haven´t been able to prove anything other than the fact that your ability to distinguish between the church, the Jew and the gentile is faulty. That seems to me to be the major failing of all Rosenthal induced positions, (Yes,... he is the gran daddy of your eschatology boy and girls).

 

Any one who confuses Matthew 24 with 1 Thess is not a very thorough Bible student.,

 

God bless,

calvary



#156 Alimantado

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:46 AM

KOB, that saying comes right out of the RCC.  I sang it growing up.  I think I had it memorized when a made the sacrament of first communion, in the second grade.  That is the sacrament right after first reconciliation (the same age, which is 7) where I had to confess my sins to the priest.  First communion is where the RCC practices substantiation where they believe the wine is the actual blood of Christ and the wafer is Jesus' body.  My mom used to say the priest in not Houdini.  The RCC uses witchcraft right on the alter with substantiation.  I had to drink fermented wine when I was 7.  Who gives alcohol to a 7 year old?  I mean, really?  Anyway, many Protestant churches say,  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  The RCC dogma has bleed over into many Protestant churches.   

 

Candlelight, what's your point? Is it that anyone who believes that Christ died, that Christ rose from the dead and that Christ will come again subscribes to Roman Catholicism?

 

And if so, do you reject any or all of the claims I just referred to, or are you a Roman Catholic too?



#157 candlelight

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 10:20 AM

Candlelight, what's your point? Is it that anyone who believes that Christ died, that Christ rose from the dead and that Christ will come again subscribes to Roman Catholicism?

 

And if so, do you reject any or all of the claims I just referred to, or are you a Roman Catholic too?

 

My point is that this is a man-made phrase by the RCC, Al.  Of course, I believe it (the wording is nice) but it is not in the KJV Bible.  It also appears in no MV on the planet.

Am I a Roman Catholic?  LOL  Far from it.  I left the RCC (in my mind) in the second grade.  By ninth grade, I convinced my parents that I didn't need to go faithfully, anymore.  My precious family has been sent to hell, b/c of the false doctrine of the RCC.  I have mentioned this before, but they are my biggest burden.

I also dabbled in witchcraft.  Not very heavily, but I did get Tarot Cards read, talk on physic hotlines, where I spent lots of money, and I used to do Tarot Cards for my friends, before the Lord took my down with a medical problem in 1997.  I was the "Good Witch" telling people have wonderful their lives would be.  I thought it was harmless, but it wasn't.  My sister also dabbles in the occult, however, she is into haunted houses and mediums.  Many RCC's are into witchcraft, which stems from "substantiation" on the pulpit of the RCC.  Everyone I know who is into witchcraft, had or has ties to the RCC.  This is just part of my testimony, Al.  

Anyway, that is the primary point of my post.  


Edited by candlelight, 01 May 2014 - 10:21 AM.


#158 Alimantado

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 10:36 AM

My point is that this is a man-made phrase by the RCC, Al.  Of course, I believe it (the wording is nice) but it is not in the KJV Bible.  It also appears in no MV on the planet.

 

So what if the RCC has used the phrase and it isn't in the Bible? It's a simple phrase and it's true (as you acknowledge), so it could be independently coined by any Christian. Or does the Catholic church get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God?

 

As for using words and/or phrases not found in the KJV Bible, I've seen you do it all the time.



#159 kindofblue1977

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:01 AM

Candlelight:

 

That saying is common to all Christian belief.  It dates back centuries and centuries.  Christians have been saying it from generation to generation.  It is a tradition, yet it is well rooted in Scripture.  It comes from Scripture. Not the exact wording, but the doctrine. It the essence of the Gospel.  Christ has died.  True?  Yes.  Christ has risen.  True?  Yes. Christ will come again.  True?  Yes.

 

So what is wrong with saying it? 

Disclaimer: I attend an Anglican church, and we say this every week right before Communion, which I find to be a lovely reminder and reaffirmation of our faith.  But we often said it in the last Baptist church I attended as well.  I think it is said in most liturgical churches.  Yes, it is said in Catholic churches, but I've heard it in Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican....I could go on.  But it is an essential truth at the heart of Christianity. 


Edited by kindofblue1977, 01 May 2014 - 11:02 AM.


#160 candlelight

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:11 AM

So what if the RCC has used the phrase and it isn't in the Bible? It's a simple phrase and it's true (as you acknowledge), so it could be independently coined by any Christian. Or does the Catholic church get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God?

 

As for using words and/or phrases not found in the KJV Bible, I've seen you do it all the time.

 

Certainly the Roman Catholic Church does not get first dibs on the words and phrases we employ to talk about God.  That is my point, Al.  In the thread that Ukelemike posted, I wrote out what my husband and I will be doing for the Lord in a year and a half.  Please read it.  Thank you:)  Anyway, in that post, I mentioned that we will be going to Scotland 2 times a year to help our missionary friends build another church over there.  They want me to help, b/c Scotland is filled with witchcraft. Anyway, my sister and I talk on the phone all the time.  The other day she called me and asked what was up.  I told her.  She immediately said, "Oh, they are Protestants" in a snarky manner.  It should be no secret how the RCC feels about the Protestants.  LOL  I closed my mouth, didn't argue, and changed the subject.

Yes, we all use phrases not found in the Bible.  I do it all the time.  The phase that KOB posted, immediately took me back to the RCC.  I was raised in public school in the late 60's, 70's, and 80's.  The public school system taught evolution.  The only thing I knew about God was from the RCC.  I went to CCD classes from 1-6 grade at an RCC church.  That was once a week.  In 7-8th grade I went to a charismatic RCC church for parochial school.  While I am very grateful I learned about God and Jesus, my head was spinning.  I floundered away for years, until my medical problem hit in 1997.  By 1998, a Baptist man, started sharing the gospel with me.  He is a wonderful man of God.  I grew up with him, and he was a wild one.  I couldn't believe the change in him.  When he found out about my dabbling in the occult, he took me to the verses in Deuteronomy and told me I was walking on the dark side.  It hit me like a brick.  At that time, my future MIL started witnessing to me.  I thought I was saved in 1998, when I recited the "Sinner's Prayer" at my bedside that this man had me do.  That was in March of 1998.  I thought I was saved.  I married my husband in 2000, as I thought I was saved.  I was merely gaining head knowledge, in my IFB church.  I was saved, on May 10, 2003, on Mother's Day Weekend in the hospital, after an Epileptic seizure.  My head and my heart were in line.  I used to suffer from fever related seizures, as a child.  My first seizure was at 6 months old.  The last one was when I was 12.  They came back, due to stress, from teaching for 18 years in the Cleveland Municipal School District.  That year, I was able to get a medical retirement from the CMSD.  The system was getting worse, and my boss suggested I put in for a retirement.  They retired over 300 teachers that year, on medical disabilities.  

Again, just sharing my testimony...  






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