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Wrongly Dividing The Word


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#1 swathdiver

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 05:21 AM

This post is for the continuation of a discussion and a rebuke that evolved from this thread with AVBibleBeliever: 

 

http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/20871-why-i-left-the-pre-trib-position/page-14#entry372270

 

You gave a biblically sound testimony of salvation but then you promote a different gospel which is not of God but men.  While you don’t mention repentance in your testimony, there’s evidence of it, which leads me to believe that you were saved the Bible’s way but discipled another way.

 

You’ve been taught wrong and it’s heresy.  The 4 Gospels are for the New Testament Church, which includes all believers, Jew and Gentile.

 

John the Baptist’s Baptism is a Christian Baptism.  All of the apostles received John’s Baptism and were the first Christians and elders of the New Testament Church.

 

Jesus Christ didn’t come to re-establish his Kingdom, he came as a shepherd to save us from our sins.  The Gospel (there’s only one despite Ruckmanism and others) was first preached to the Jews and then the Gentiles.

 

If your way was correct the Lord would have included them in the Old Testament the doctrines you guys promote in the Apocrypha!

 

Because you folks believe in the universal invisible church like the papists and her harlots, y’all have had to redefine the biblical meaning of church, body, kingdom and baptism for example.

 

ALL man-made religions include works as part of salvation.  Those who apply works to salvation in any time are accursed; as the Holy Spirit had written in the first chapter of Galatians.

 

The angel in the first chapter of Matthew told Joseph that Jesus (meaning Savior) was coming to save his people from their sins.  Jesus was not coming to throw off Herod or Caesar and establish an earthly kingdom.  In fact, he later refused such a request in the sixth chapter of John when he fled the 5,000 men that he had just fed because they wanted to make him King.  How many times is Christ referred to as a Shepherd in the book of Matthew?

 

The law and the prophets were until John.  The church age began with John.  John the Baptist came to baptize and preach.  Repent not only means expressing sorrow, it means to change one’s mind from sin to righteousness.  You cannot have repentance without faith and faith without repentance.  They are two sides of the same coin.  Following repentance and faith, a new convert’s first public expression of obedience to Jesus Christ is to be baptized.  Jesus’ first public act during his earthly ministry was also baptism.  Note here also that all of the apostles and first members of the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem were baptized by John the Baptist (Acts 1).  This was a Christian, New Testament Church that Jesus Christ himself started on the shores of Galilee, in full operation long before Pentecost.

 

A New Testament Church is local and visible assembly of called out believers covenanted together to fulfill the Great Commission.  Save for the minds of the harlot churches and those deceived by them, there is no universal, invisible church.  The lost sheep in the parable of Matthew 18 hath need to be physically present with the flock, not wandering around the invisible body.

 

If Jesus Christ offered an earthly kingdom when did he?  When was he rejected?  By whom?

 

If the four Gospels are for the Jews, why then aren’t they in the Old Testament? 

 

Well, in post #273 you gave your answer.  But it’s wrong and not supported by a proper reading of the Bible.  My rebuke can be found throughout the preceding paragraphs.

 

Seeing you guys post these heresies makes me angry.  I have lived through the damage it has done to folks.  Wise up!  



#2 Covenanter

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:29 AM

From the other thread:

 

Covenanter:


AVBB you've missed a few Scriptures - 

Luke - the message to the shepherds, the prayer of Simeon, Jesus' ministry at Nazareth, his commission to the Apostles, 

John - the conversation at the well, the message to the Greeks who wanted to see Jesus,

Acts - Jesus' reply when the Apostles asked about the kingdom.... 

 

The truth is that Messiah had to come through Abraham .... David to fulfil prophecy, and minister to the people of Israel, in order to accomplish salvation for ALL nations as promised to Abraham. Salvation was never exclusive to Israel, many Gentiles were numbered with Israel when they believed - Matthew 1 includes notable Gentile women. 

 

Now, AVBB show your own repentance by acknowledging your errors.

 

AVBB:

I never said there was not salvation of the Gentiles.  The Gospel of the Kingdom was in fact exclusive of Israel (see the above verse were preached and taught only to Israel. So no repentance is necessary as I am not in Error.  The gospel of the Grace of God (which is not the Gospel of the Kingdom) through Israel did come through Paul unto the Gentile keeping the promise to Abraham that through him all Nations would be blessed. God is the Salvation of ALL but there are two Gospels (the gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of the Grace of God) for two different periods of Time.  One for Israel as they prepare for their promised kingdom with one from David, and even David himself torule from Jerusalem.  And one for all men including Jews during the church age until the tribulation starts and Israel takes up the Kingdom Gospel again.

 

I suggest the serious problem is the teaching that the Gospels & letters, other than Paul's, are specifically for Israel - the Jews of the tribulation & the millennium. And that in some way the rejection of the Messiah & the Apostolic Gospel CAUSED a change of plan by God, so resulting in the Gospel of Grace for Gentiles & Jews who accepted it. That removes the recorded teaching of Jesus from his followers in this age of grace.

 

It's not adding to Scripture but subtracting it from the church. It's seeing divisions where there are none. In effect it's seeing the different aspects of the revelation of our God as essentially different, rather than as pieces of a jigsaw, that together make up the whole picture. The Jews majored on the kingdom promises, & missed out on the salvation promises.

 

We tend to read "last times" references as relating to shortly before Jesus' return (to US???), whereas the inspired writers referred to such references as applying to themselves & their hearers. We have God's final call to mankind in our Scriptures. They DO apply to us but not specifically - God's warnings apply in principle to every generation, but of course specifically to those to whom they were given - may we have ears to hear!

 

Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, ......

2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?



#3 BroMatt

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 08:44 AM

Just a quick reminder to all. To keep this thread open, no personal attacks. 

 

Now, carry on.



#4 wretched

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 11:30 AM

Hardly heresy Swath. The only heresy presented continuously and tolerated here is replacement/covenant/preterist heresy.

 

I haven't read all of the avbb guys posts, not even close to it but the fact that God changed His dealings with man throughout the OT into the earthly ministry of Christ and onto the Epistles is clearly indicated in the text of Bible.

 

It is man's simply minded need to lump it all together, changed the meaning and ignoring the differences in the text itself that cause the strife about it. The main point being that is doesn't matter to our current time. It matters only to full understanding of God as written in the Word. Whether you understand it or refuse to want to understand it, doesn't matter to us right now.

 

There was no written NT prior to Christ's earthly ministry. There was no written Epistles during Christ's earthly ministry. As the events occurring and God dealt with Israel and the then with the Gentiles after Israel's rejections of Him, He recorded the differences in the NT. The differences are clearly seen if you dump all the simple minded "oh it says that but doesn't mean that" teachings that men give you.

 

I know you are a new Christian relatively speaking here and I admit for 20 plus years I accepted reluctantly all the " well, I know the words are different, the audiences are different, the contexts are different:  but it all means the same thing". I never really bought it, just accepted it. I got tired of accepting it mainly because if it is was all the same throughout time, God would surely have presented it in His Word the same throughout time.

 

Here is a good rule of thumb that I apply since it seems the average Christian and most all on this site spend far more time on men's opinions about the Word as opposed to studying the Word itself:

 

If an author ever says "well it says this but the Greek changes its meaning to that" or "it says this but really means that" ignore that author.

 

I recommend all stop, drop your Christian books/audio and videos and listen only to the Word over the next several months. I guarantee you will understand many things differently than you do now.



#5 Bro K

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 11:46 AM

"I recommend all stop, drop your Christian books/audio and videos and listen only to the Word over the next several months. I guarantee you will understand many things differently than you do now."

 

Reminds me of hearing about Lester Roloff; when he went to his study and got rid of all his books, except for a dictionary and a lexicon.



#6 prophet1

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 12:27 PM

John's Baptism:

Act 19:1-5
Chapter 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus:and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Not Christian.

Anishinaabe



#7 MountainChristian

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 01:16 PM

Is this who you are talking about? http://en.wikipedia....i/Peter_Ruckman If so please please read the part about ufos. :frog:



#8 Covenanter

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 01:30 PM

John's Baptism:

Act 19:1-5
Chapter 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus:and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Not Christian.

Anishinaabe

They had not heard or understood about John's teaching if they had not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

 

Mat. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

Otherwise they would have been expecting him, and the Messiah.



#9 prophet1

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:29 PM

They had not heard or understood about John's teaching if they had not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Mat. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Otherwise they would have been expecting him, and the Messiah.

Act 19:4
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


Anishinaabe



#10 swathdiver

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 06:22 PM

Hardly heresy Swath. The only heresy presented continuously and tolerated here is replacement/covenant/preterist heresy.

 

In post #268 our brother says that only faith and not repentance is required for salvation for the church age.  That's one of several.

 

John's Baptism:

Act 19:1-5
Chapter 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus:and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Not Christian.

Anishinaabe

 

All this means is that they were taught wrong presumably by Apollos.  Now Apollos was saved but these men were not and once they made repentance towards God and put their trust in Christ they were Baptised.  Note also that this event takes place about forty years after John the Baptist's death.  

 

Since you believe that John's Baptism is not Christian, where then does it belong?  Why wasn't it laid out in the law and why was a priest of the order of Melchisedec from the tribe of Judah getting a levitical priest's "baptism" not in accord with the scriptures? 






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