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Paradise And Abraham's Bosom


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#1 swathdiver

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 10:16 PM

Some teach that Paradise is a separate place than heaven, or the Kingdom of God and or the Kingdom of Heaven.  Some say that Paradise and Abraham's Bosom are the same and are in the earth filled with the saved from the Old Testament.  There are many variations of this taught.

 

Hearing another version, or rather, reading another version presented today I did a word search in my King James Bible and came up with these several verses:

 

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." - Luke 13:28

 

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;" - Luke 16:22
 
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." - Luke 16:23
 
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
 
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
 
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." - 2 Corinthians 12:2-4

 

In Luke 13 we learn that Abraham is in the kingdom of God.  We learn in Luke 16 that the rich man in hell looked up and saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.  We learn in 2 Corinthians 12 that the third heaven is up, not down and that the third heaven is paradise.  Therefore paradise is not hades or under the earth, it is synonymous with the kingdom of God.  Abraham's bosom is not a place like heaven, it's just being drawn close or embraced by Abraham.

 

As an aside, we also learn that it's unlawful for a man to utter what he heard from heaven, save for what the Holy Ghost has written in the Bible.  Such at the very least discredits those like the little boy who claim to have been in heaven and returned.

 

I was going to ask why they do this but we already know don't we?

 

What say you folks?



#2 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 10:21 PM

I say that the reference you quoted from Luke 13 is prophetic in nature, and not yet fulfilled.  Abraham will certainly be in the Kingdom of God when the Lord returns to establish that Kingdom on this earth.   THis is the national resurrection of Israel, as described in Ezekiel 37.  There will be many Jews who THINK they are going into the Kingdom, and will even see many of the OT saints resurrected and entering into that Kingdom, but they will be thrust out. 



#3 swathdiver

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 10:25 PM

Hmm, but doesn't then Luke 16 place Abraham already up there at the time of Lazarus' death?  

 

For brevity I left out that some teach that paradise or Abraham's bosom move around.



#4 No Nicolaitans

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 10:36 PM

When the Lord told the thief on the cross that today, thou shalt be with me in paradise, where did the thief go?

 

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
 
They went into the heart of the earth. Paradise was emptied, and moved to heaven; therefore, the paradise that was once in the heart of the earth is now in heaven, and heaven is now referred to as Paradise.


#5 MountainChristian

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 10:38 PM

Ephesians 4: 8-10



#6 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 11:04 PM

Luke 16 does not say "up" or "down."  It states that he went to Abraham's bosom - not Heaven, not up, not down.

Wherever this place is, it is in close proximity to Hell, because the rich man in hell could see Lazarus. 

So then, is Hell in close proximity to Heaven?  Can people in Heaven see people in Hell, and vice-versa?

 

I say, "No." 

The gentlemen above gave Scriptures that would explain why.

 

In Christ,



#7 swathdiver

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:14 AM

Luke 16 does not say "up" or "down."  

 

In Luke 16:23 the rich man had to look up.  So paradise was higher than hell.  Being in the spirit and not physical world, I wonder what distance "afar off" means?  But it doesn't matter as Matthew 12:40 completes it.  Thanks!

 

 

When the Lord told the thief on the cross that today, thou shalt be with me in paradise, where did the thief go?

 

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
 
They went into the heart of the earth. Paradise was emptied, and moved to heaven; therefore, the paradise that was once in the heart of the earth is now in heaven, and heaven is now referred to as Paradise.

 

 

That's the verse I was missing to answer the question of paradise.  Which begs another:  Why was paradise in the earth and not in heaven already?



#8 Salyan

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:18 AM

In Luke 16:23 the rich man had to look up.  So paradise was higher than hell.  Being in the spirit and not physical world, I wonder what distance "afar off" means?  But it doesn't matter as Matthew 12:40 completes it.  Thanks!

 

 

That's the verse I was missing to answer the question of paradise.  Which begs another:  Why was paradise in the earth and not in heaven already?

 

Because Christ had not yet ascended up on high? To fulfill Psalm 68:18?



#9 swathdiver

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 01:37 PM

Because Christ had not yet ascended up on high? To fulfill Psalm 68:18?

 

:scratchchin:



#10 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 05:11 PM

Abraham's bosom was a temporary "holding place" for OT saints, because the only sacrifice for sins the OT saints had was animal sacrifices as prescribed by the Law, and even before the Law.  The final sacrifice was not paid until the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for ALL sins.  It was at this point that the OT saints were "released" from Abraham's bosom, and taken to the 3rd Heaven.

 

References:

Heb. 9:11-28 - the blood of Christ

Matt. 27:52 - OT saints resurrected 



#11 Winman

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 07:53 PM

Abraham's bosom was a temporary "holding place" for OT saints, because the only sacrifice for sins the OT saints had was animal sacrifices as prescribed by the Law, and even before the Law.  The final sacrifice was not paid until the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for ALL sins.  It was at this point that the OT saints were "released" from Abraham's bosom, and taken to the 3rd Heaven.

 

References:

Heb. 9:11-28 - the blood of Christ

Matt. 27:52 - OT saints resurrected 

 

Not to be nit-picky, but the OT saints could not ascend to heaven until Jesus rose from the dead and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. That is why the scriptures say if Jesus is not raised, we are yet in our sins. 

 

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

It is not enough that Jesus died for our sins, he had to also rise and sprinkle his blood on the mercy seat in heaven for our sins to be forgiven. This is what I believe the OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom for. Once Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat, our sins were atoned for, and now believers could be taken to heaven. I believe Jesus descended into Abraham's bosom, gave the OT saints the gift of the Holy Spirit, and then led them to heaven. Now paradise and the tree of life is in heaven as shown in Revelation 22:2. 

 

Gal 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
 
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Edited by Winman, 20 July 2014 - 07:53 PM.


#12 "I am chief"

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:07 PM

 

Not to be nit-picky, but the OT saints could not ascend to heaven until Jesus rose from the dead and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. That is why the scriptures say if Jesus is not raised, we are yet in our sins. 

 

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

It is not enough that Jesus died for our sins, he had to also rise and sprinkle his blood on the mercy seat in heaven for our sins to be forgiven. This is what I believe the OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom for. Once Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat, our sins were atoned for, and now believers could be taken to heaven. I believe Jesus descended into Abraham's bosom, gave the OT saints the gift of the Holy Spirit, and then led them to heaven. Now paradise and the tree of life is in heaven as shown in Revelation 22:2. 

 

Gal 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
 
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

This is the way I've come to believe it. The old testaments couldn't go into the presence of God without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for their sins. So, they waited...until Christ fulfilled the the "once for all" and the gospel message was complete. I believe Christ delivered the gospel to the O.T. Saints while in the earth 3 days and those who believed were immediately in heaven.



#13 Winman

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:35 PM

This is the way I've come to believe it. The old testaments couldn't go into the presence of God without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for their sins. So, they waited...until Christ fulfilled the the "once for all" and the gospel message was complete. I believe Christ delivered the gospel to the O.T. Saints while in the earth 3 days and those who believed were immediately in heaven.

 

That might be possible, but 1 Corinthians 15 teaches that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then our faith is vain and we are yet in our sins. Why? Because Jesus had to enter the Holy of Holies in heaven with his own blood and sprinkle it on the mercy seat for our sins to be forgiven. 

 

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
 
Until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven, we were not redeemed. Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. 
 
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
 
So, it is not enough that Jesus died for us, he also HAD to rise from the dead for us to be saved. 

Edited by Winman, 20 July 2014 - 08:36 PM.


#14 Miss Daisy

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:23 PM

sounds like a kind of purgatory, What about Elijah? who went off in a chariot? what exactly is Abraham's bosom?



#15 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:13 PM

I'm not convinced that Abraham's Bosom was Paradise.

My thought on Jesus' statement on the cross? To day could encompass a thousand years. 2 Peter 3:8

I think Jesus was speaking of the Paradise of God that the Apostle Paul spoke of in his epistle to the Church at Corinth..

#16 Ukulelemike

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:18 AM

Abraham's Bosom was, actually, ABRAHAM'S BOSOM. in other words, the beggar Lazarus was comforted in the literal bosom, or embrace, of Abraham. Abraham happened to be in Paradise, which was, as has been said before, a separate place from Heaven, as none could yet ascend to Heaven until mankind was redeemed. Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison, which would be Paradise, because none can go to heaven except they know Christ. Not even Abraham.

 Now, as for Elijah and Enoch, they seem to be different, perhaps a picture of the believers' experience? Both assuemed bodily into Heaven? For what purpose, the Bible doesn't say, and while we can speculate all we like, we'll never know this side of glory, for the hidden things belong to the Lord.



#17 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:02 AM

I don't see any verse in the Bible that says Lazarus was in Paradise with the rich man crying out for a drop of water.  I see he was in Abram's Bosom, separate from Hell, separate from Paradise .... nothing more, nothing less.



#18 "I am chief"

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:59 AM

 

That might be possible, but 1 Corinthians 15 teaches that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then our faith is vain and we are yet in our sins. Why? Because Jesus had to enter the Holy of Holies in heaven with his own blood and sprinkle it on the mercy seat for our sins to be forgiven. 

 

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
 
Until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven, we were not redeemed. Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. 
 
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
 
So, it is not enough that Jesus died for us, he also HAD to rise from the dead for us to be saved. 

 

Cross out that "immediately" in my prior post. The rest of it and what you said prior to that post I was in agreement with. Yes, Jesus did have to rise from the dead and ascend into heaven for the Gospel to be complete but, when he "led captivity captive" those that believed what he preached to them were moved from Abraham's bosom into heaven with my Savior, Jesus Christ...and so shall they ever be.



#19 Ukulelemike

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:18 AM

I don't see any verse in the Bible that says Lazarus was in Paradise with the rich man crying out for a drop of water.  I see he was in Abram's Bosom, separate from Hell, separate from Paradise .... nothing more, nothing less.

True, the Bible doesn't call it paradise. Agreed. But was this Abraham's Bosom, or Abraham's bosom, not the name of the location, but of the place of comfort, literally, the bosom, or embrace of Abraham. After all, we see it was Abraham speaking on behalf of Lazarus to the rich man. As well, the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus, and Abraham could see and speak with the rich man, meaning Lazarus could see and hear him, I would assume, a safe assumption.

 

We DO know wherever it was,it was a place of comfort, a place where Abraham was, a place where the angels took him.

 

As well, as was mentioned above, the thief on the cros was told by Jesus that he would be with him in paradise that very day, yet Jesus still had to preach to the  lost and fulfill His three days in the grave ebfore he would axscend and complete the sacrifice. So it is safe to again assume that the Paradise jesus spoke of wasn't Heaven, but a temporary place, where the thief met with Jesus, Jesus preached and led them out.

 

Yes, there is assumptions in all this-its not clearly spelled out in any one verse, but that's how we read and understand the Bible-by taking it as a whole and putting things together when they fit properly and this all fits quite well.

 

But as always, there's always room for discussion and I don't claim perfect understanding, as I think few here would.



#20 Standing Firm In Christ

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:01 PM

The prophet Isaiah foretold of Christ ministering to those in prison... Setting captives free. I believe the prison is where Abraham and Lazarus were... again, separate from hell and separate from Paradise. If Lazarus was in paradise with Abraham, why would he need to be set at liberty?




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