Dorightchristians - King James Onlyism Before Peter Ruckman

140 posts in this topic

Posted

Actually, Jeffrey didn't bring up Calvinism. He mentioned Calvin's writings as re: the style of language.  So...(and I don't think he was saying he didn't care about those who are Muslim...but rather that he didn't care what they think about our Bible/versions/etc...).  Not defending or siding with anyone - just trying to stave off a rabbit trail argument I sense brewing... :clapping:

 

FWIW, Jeffrey, most people who believe the KJB to be the Bible for English-speaking peoples aren't afraid.  Just weary of constantly having to explain and explain.  While our language has indeed changed, we still know - or can find out - the meanings of words which have changed over time. 

 

As a matter of fact, it is good for people to have to think and research and look up words. It actually encourages scholarship and study - at least, it would if we were not living in a society in which everything has become "easier."

 

However, straitened still means restricted... ;)

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Posted

Actually, Jeffrey didn't bring up Calvinism. He mentioned Calvin's writings as re: the style of language.  So...(and I don't think he was saying he didn't care about those who are Muslim...but rather that he didn't care what they think about our Bible/versions/etc...).  Not defending or siding with anyone - just trying to stave off a rabbit trail argument I sense brewing... :clapping:

 

FWIW, Jeffrey, most people who believe the KJB to be the Bible for English-speaking peoples aren't afraid.  Just weary of constantly having to explain and explain.  While our language has indeed changed, we still know - or can find out - the meanings of words which have changed over time. 

 

As a matter of fact, it is good for people to have to think and research and look up words. It actually encourages scholarship and study - at least, it would if we were not living in a society in which everything has become "easier."

 

However, straitened still means restricted... ;)

 
Sorry, LuAnne.  I didn't catch that.  I am just so tired of hearing about Calvinism on an IFB site.  Once again, I came to OB under the assumption that it was an IFB site.  I will say again, that I enjoy when people come to OB to learn more about IFB's, but those who are pushing Calvinism on this site, day in and day out, makes me grow weary.

Jeffrey, below is an article that will show you what Wescott and Hort believed.  Included in the article are their actual words, not words made up by IFB's.  Note what was said about Darwinism.

http://www.1611kingjamesbible.com/westcott_hort.html/

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Posted

Okay - but let's leave aside talk about Calvinism right now, okay?  Once again, he didn't bring it up... :peek:

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Posted

Okay - but let's leave aside talk about Calvinism right now, okay?  Once again, he didn't bring it up... :peek:

Thanks Luanne, that was my point of bringing up, um, you know who.
CL, the Muslims I have witnessed to have a real prOBlem with Jesus, they get angry when I tell them that He is God incarnate. They flip out and get angry, that is their prOBlem. And you are absolutely correct, they need The Lord In a bad way. They are a very devout people who are falsely led to worship Satan. It does bother me to see that.

Back to my other question, what does this verse mean?
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.

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Posted

Islam teaches that Jesus was a great prophet, not the Son of God. They also teach that Muhammad was the greatest prophet, which naturally places Jesus as a lesser prophet than Muhammad. Their teaching also says that Jesus didn't die upon the cross.

 

If the discussion with a Muslim gets stuck at this point then there is no point going further and no use to continue on with them. Pray the Lord will soften their hearts, open their understanding and send someone to them at the right time to share the Gospel with them.

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Posted

The Holy Spirit is the saving agent that uses the Scriptures, but without the Holy Spirit, it's all for naught.

 

Agreed

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Posted

Sorry for the delay, Jeffrey.  I got a phone call, as you asked me this question.  Actually, I didn't know if you wanted me to answer it.

"Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels." ~ II Corinthians 6:12

 

That verse is talking about Biblical separation.  Christians are to be holy, not conformed to this world.  In this chapter, the Apostle Paul is talking to the church at Corinth.

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Posted

Islam teaches that Jesus was a great prophet, not the Son of God. They also teach that Muhammad was the greatest prophet, which naturally places Jesus as a lesser prophet than Muhammad. Their teaching also says that Jesus didn't die upon the cross.

 

If the discussion with a Muslim gets stuck at this point then there is no point going further and no use to continue on with them. Pray the Lord will soften their hearts, open their understanding and send someone to them at the right time to share the Gospel with them.

 
After much prayer, I had to let go of a Muslim that I was witnessing to on Facebook, John.  He is a year older than my son.  He was engaged to a young girl, worldly like himself, but his mother didn't approve of her (many Muslims are atheist and agnostic.  He was agnostic). Anyway, he had to break off his engagement to her awhile back.  He is now engaged to a woman, his mother has arranged for him to marry.  She is a very devout Muslim.  I watched his Timeline and his conversations with her.  I believe he is now following Islam.  I am bathing the issue in prayer. 

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Posted

Because of the discussion of Muslims, I wanted to post this information.  There is a man by the name of Monthir Abdullatif who was reared Muslim.  He has written a book (it is not very long)  called From Darkness Into Light.  Here is the blurb about it:

 

 

A man who lived in the darkness of religious traditions,

practicing rituals and duties imposed by his religion, tried
with all his efforts to reach to the deepest of divine
Majesty. However, piety and sophism lead to nothingness,
and that man remained lost in the waves of deceptive
religiosity, trying to worship an unknown god, deprived of
the love and the compassion of the real God.
 
Suddenly, the divine light shined in the horizon of his
existence to lead him to the heavenly truth. It was an
encounter between a desperate, miserable man and the
One that calms down those that labor and are of heavy
laden, the Living Christ.
 
Darkness came to an end, and the myth of the fathers’ and
forefathers’ religion expired, so that the truth of salvation
could begin through the man’s placing himself in the palm
of the redeemer, Christ, the prince of life.
 
It is a story of a life. . . it is a story of a destiny.

Interestingly enough, the Koran showed him the truth of Christ.  Yep, that's what he said (of course, he does not recommend it!).  He lists the parts of the Koran that showed him that they do, indeed, talk about the virgin birth of Christ, etc. That and other parts of the Koran gave him a thirst to find Christ. He did and he now ministers to Muslims.  

 

It is an excellent book to get to give to Muslims you know who may be even a wee bit receptive.

 

Find it at Bethel  Baptist Print Ministry (a ministry of Bethel Baptist Church in London, Ontario)..

 

http://www.bethelbaptist.ca/  I couldn't find the book on there, but emailed them and they answered me right away that they do print it still. I'm waiting on a response as to how to find it on their site. Will update this when I know for sure.

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Posted

Because of the discussion of Muslims, I wanted to post this information.  There is a man by the name of Monthir Abdullatif who was reared Muslim.  He has written a book (it is not very long)  called From Darkness Into Light.  Here is the blurb about it:

 

Interestingly enough, the Koran showed him the truth of Christ.  Yep, that's what he said (of course, he does not recommend it!).  He lists the parts of the Koran that showed him that they do, indeed, talk about the virgin birth of Christ, etc. That and other parts of the Koran gave him a thirst to find Christ. He did and he now ministers to Muslims.  

 

It is an excellent book to get to give to Muslims you know who may be even a wee bit receptive.

 

Find it at Bethel  Baptist Print Ministry (a ministry of Bethel Baptist Church in London, Ontario)..

 

http://www.bethelbaptist.ca/  I couldn't find the book on there, but emailed them and they answered me right away that they do print it still. I'm waiting on a response as to how to find it on their site. Will update this when I know for sure.

 

Thanks for the recommendation, HC.  It sounds like a wonderful book.  Yes, the Qur'an does show a Muslim who Jesus Christ is.  As with many who get saved, when God brings you to the bottom of self, your religion of your birth will reveal to you who Jesus Christ actually is.  The RCC also revealed to me who Jesus is.

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Posted

Okay - just heard back from Bethel Baptist.  The book is not on their website. The author sells it, and they have permission to sell it as well.  You can email the church:

 

info@bethelbaptist.ca

 

 

or the author:

 

mabdullatif@comcast.net

 

I don't know how much it costs (it's been a while since I bought it, and I bought it at our bookstore), but it won't be much because it is actually a small book.  But it's powerful - for Muslims!

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Posted

Thanks, HC.  The Muslims I have left on my Facebook Timeline are atheist or agnostic.  Many young Muslims are, in middle eastern countries.  I had to un-friend a Shi'ite from Iran, awhile ago, b/c he wouldn't co-operate with a secular Jew who runs Haaretz News in Israel.  All that he needed to do, was give his opinion on Iran and the conflict with the "Palestianians" so it could be printed in Haaretz.  He refused to co-operate.

This sounds like an excellent book to read, while I am still living in north eastern, OH.  Muslims are everywhere here and need the gospel.  The charismatics are witnessing to them all the time.  Why aren't more IFB's on the field witnessing to them?  We have God's perfect word, but many times limit it to our churches, not in our communities.      

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Posted

Sorry for the delay, Jeffrey.  I got a phone call, as you asked me this question.  Actually, I didn't know if you wanted me to answer it."Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels." ~ II Corinthians 6:12
 
That verse is talking about Biblical separation.  Christians are to be holy, not conformed to this world.  In this chapter, the Apostle Paul is talking to the church at Corinth.


Thank you, you proved my point, you had to use today's English to explain what it was taught. Actually Paul was imploring the Corinthians to open up to Paul, because Paul had opened up to them. Has nothing to do with separation

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Posted

No-one ever said we don't use today's English to explain things.  That doesn't mean we have to change scripture.  Because if words have changed meaning since then, they'll change meaning again.  And so more new versions will have to be made, etc...

 

Even with MVs, explanation is often needed - using other words than what is written.  When teaching that section, you would have to explain what is meant by "opening up" because there are so many things that are opened...

 

Any version you want to pick would need an explanation.

 

Verse 12 is teaching reconciliation with Paul.  And then he goes into the teaching of separation.

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Posted

Thank you, you proved my point, you had to use today's English to explain what it was taught. Actually Paul was imploring the Corinthians to open up to Paul, because Paul had opened up to them. Has nothing to do with separation

 

I read the chapter in context, Jeffrey.  Yes, HC it is about "being reconciled to God"... however, it does go on to talk about Biblical separation.  I used the KJV to determine the meaning, Jeffrey.  God's word, alone.  I read it with my mind, and it spoke to my heart.  Also, what you could have done was given me the scripture verse, so that I didn't have to look it up in my concordance.  You just left a scripture w/o putting down where the verse was in the Bible.  I should have asked you what it meant, as you haven't even looked at or responded to the article on Wescott and Hort.  Maybe you don't want to gain insight into these men, b/c they would have to make you look at how corrupt the MV's are.  

 

"Ye are not straightened in us, but ye are straightened in us, but ye are straightened in your own bowels.  13  Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.  14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers:  for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?  and what communion hath light with darkness?" ~ II Corinthians 6:14


 

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Posted

Since we don't have the originals by the apostles we don't know what is the real copies anyways, all we have are copies from copies from copies from copies,......
And you cannot point to me in Scripture that the KJV is the "authorized" version in English.if you can show me that, then you have something, everything is just conjuncture and personal choice.
Your dumbing down argument doesn't work either, the Greek ms were in Koine Greek, common language, everyday people. Besides, doesn't God Himself, "lower" Himself to speak with man? He didn't have to, but He loves us.

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Posted

I read the chapter in context, Jeffrey.  Yes, HC it is about "being reconciled to God"... however, it does go on to talk about Biblical separation.  I used the KJV to determine the meaning, Jeffrey.  God's word, alone.  I read it with my mind, and it spoke to my heart.  Also, what you could have done was given me the scripture verse, so that I didn't have to look it up in my concordance.  You just left a scripture w/o putting down where the verse was in the Bible.  I should have asked you what it meant, as you haven't even looked at or responded to the article on Wescott and Hort.  Maybe you don't want to gain insight into these men, b/c they would have to make you look at how corrupt the MV's are.  
 
"Ye are not straightened in us, but ye are straightened in us, but ye are straightened in your own bowels.  13  Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.  14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers:  for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?  and what communion hath light with darkness?" ~ II Corinthians 6:14


I was talking about that verse 12, do you speaketh as such on this day?

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Posted (edited)

Since we don't have the originals by the apostles we don't know what is the real copies anyways, all we have are copies from copies from copies from copies,......
And you cannot point to me in Scripture that the KJV is the "authorized" version in English.if you can show me that, then you have something, everything is just conjuncture and personal choice.
Your dumbing down argument doesn't work either, the Greek ms were in Koine Greek, common language, everyday people. Besides, doesn't God Himself, "lower" Himself to speak with man? He didn't have to, but He loves us.

 

No.  I had already stated that we don't have the "originals" Jeffrey.  Hey, knock your self out using the MV's that take out the deity of Jesus Christ, with missing scriptures.  Just leave people in a state of confusion, brother.  

I don't know how you can't possibly think that our Bibles haven't been dumbed down.  Just as English goes downhill, so do the MV's, as they are a product of the dumbing down of our English language.  The newest Bible out there is one that appeases sodomites; however, it will leave them in their sin and a lost state, sending them to an eternity of hell.

Still not reading Wescott and Hort's own words in the article?

Edited by candlelight

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Posted

I was talking about that verse 12, do you speaketh as such on this day?

 

I figured that out, Jeffrey.  When I witness to someone, I will give them the verse from the KJV.  Yes, of course!  "God's word, never returns void."

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Posted

Below is the article from Wescott and Hort's own words, Jeffrey.
 

TELLING QUOTATIONS FROM WESTCOTT AND HORT

Concerning the Deity of Christ:

"He never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him." (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297). 

"(John) does not expressly affirm the identification of the Word with Jesus Christ." (Westcott, Ibid., p. 16).

Concerning the Scriptures:

"I reject the infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly." (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207). 

"Our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise." (Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament, p. vii). 

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible." (Hort, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.400)

Concerning Hell:

"(Hell is) not the place of punishment of the guilty, (it is) the common abode of departed spirits. (Westcott, Historic Faith, pp.77-78).

"We have no sure knowledge of future punishment, and the word eternal has a far higher meaning." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p.149).

Concerning Creation:

"No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history. I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did." (Westcott, cited from Which Bible?, p. 191).

"But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with..... My feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable." (Hort, cited from Which Bible?, p. 189)

Concerning the Atonement:

"I think I mentioned to you before Campbell's book on the Atonement, which is invaluable as far as it goes;but unluckily he knows nothing except Protestant theology." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 322)

"The popular doctrine of substitution is an immoral and material counterfeit...nothing can be moreunscriptural than the the limiting of Christ's bearing our sins and sufferings to His death; but indeed that is only one aspect of an almost universal heresy." (Hort to Westcott, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 430)

"I confess I have no repugnance to the primitive doctrine of a ransom paid to Satan. I can see no other possible form in which the doctrine of a ransom is at all tenable; anything is better than the doctrine of a ransom to the father." (Hort, The First Epistle of St. Peter 1:1-2:17, p. 77).

Concerning Man:

"It is of course true that we can only know God through human forms, but then I think the whole Bible echoes the language of Genesis 1:27 and so assures us that human forms are divine forms." (Hort to Westcott, August 14, 1860)

"Protestants (must) unlearn the crazy horror of the idea of Priesthood."  (Hort, Life and Letters, Volume II, pp. 49-51)

Concerning Roman Catholicism:

"I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry (the worship of the Virgin Mary) bears witness." (Westcott, Ibid. )

"I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-Worship and Jesus-Worship have very much in common." (Hort, Life and Letters, Volume II, pp. 49-51)

"The pure Romanish view seems to be nearer, and more likely to lead to the truth than the Evangelical." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 77)

"I agree with you in thinking it a pity that Maurice verbally repudiates purgatory . . . the idea of purgation, cleansing by fire, seems to me inseparable from what the Bible teaches us of the Divine chastisements."  (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. II, pp. 336,337)

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Posted (edited)

What verses are they talking about?
C'mon CL, your better than that! Don't post articles trying to defend your position, quotes are ok, but not articles. For every W/H article you post, I can find a James White or Daniel Wallace article to refute what you posted. And you know what?, I know nOBody here will read them anyway. Let's use our intellect, you are a lot smarter than me, that's for sure!

Edited by Jeffrey

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Posted

What she posted was quotes, Jeffrey.  Quotes by one of the translators for whom all MVs owe their thanks.  Someone who didn't believe in a literal creation, but does think Darwinism is unanswerable - that alone should ring warning bells loudly and clearly.  At the very least intellectually.

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Posted

The Muslim OBjection predates the modern versions. The many Greek manuscripts even of the Received Text have small variations. Erasmus did his best. 

 

The idea that there is one perfect original Koran is fiction - nothing was written by Mohammed - he recited what he claimed he received & his followers remembered, more or less. Various followers wrote what they remembered. After his death they put it in order trying to agree on what was authentic. The Caliph then took a set of Surahs that he declared were authentic & made sure all other versions were destroyed.

 

And memorizing & reciting it in Arabic is more important than understanding it - you can't really live by its teaching.

I believe that the Mohammad garbage was written hundreds of years after the time he supposedly lived and he never really existed.  This would be why so much of what is supposedly said and dictated by him is contradictory.  I also believe the junk about the battles he was in and lots of the information about Muslim conquests written by Muslims is so much junk.  :twocents:

 

 

God bless,

Larry

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Posted (edited)

Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.

 

According to the translators of the Bible I use -

                                                        "Their judgement was so corrupted, that they were not likewise affectioned towards him, as he was towards them"

 

 

And I do think that English is the chosen language of the Lord, for these last days.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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Posted (edited)

If someone isn't satisfied with quotes...read their actual letters. Granted, the quotes make it easy to see their heresy, but you can read their heresy for yourself if you don't trust the quotes. Like any "good" heresy, you'll have to spend some time reading through the stuff that sounds good, but just keep reading...you'll find it. That's what I did, because I wanted to make sure the quotes that I had seen were true.

 

...and these heretics are the ones to thank for the MVs that people like White and Wallace espouse. There might be articles written by those men to refute quotes, but you can't refute their (Westcott and Hort's) own words. If White and Wallace are claiming the actual quotes are wrong...they're flat out lying. 

 

By the way, in my reading of their actual letters, I discovered that some of the quotes were wrong...they had some of the page references wrong, but not the quotes themselves. I don't know if that applies to the quotes that candlelight gave, but the quotes I was reading at the time were wrong on some of their page references.

 

Here's Hort's - https://archive.org/details/lifelettershort00hortuoft

 

Here's Westcott's - https://archive.org/details/brookefosswestco00westuoft

 

 

I believe that the Mohammad garbage was written hundreds of years after the time he supposedly lived and he never really existed.  This would be why so much of what is supposedly said and dictated by him is contradictory.  I also believe the junk about the battles he was in and lots of the information about Muslim conquests written by Muslims is so much junk.  :twocents:

 

 

God bless,

Larry

 

I recently heard that it's been discovered that the Koran was actually taken from Gnostic writings that have been found...again, just like I did with the Westcott and Hort quotes, I want to dig and find out if this is true. 

Edited by No Nicolaitans
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