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Dorightchristians - King James Onlyism Before Peter Ruckman


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#21 HappyChristian

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:03 PM


Yes, we all need to beware of Chrislam or is it spelled "Crislam?" 

I think it's with an /h/ - I misspelled it.  Oops! 



#22 candlelight

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:14 PM

I think it's with an /h/ - I misspelled it.  Oops! 

No problem.  I just wanted to make sure that I was spelling it correctly.  



#23 wretched

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:40 PM

It appears that some folks on this forum still miss the point of the KJB "correcting" the originals.

 

It doubt anyone (I could be wrong because I don't read anything these folks write anyway) actually believes the 1611 KJB is more accurate than the directly inspired originals provided by God to Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles, etc.

 

The missed points are twofold: #1 Noone living has ever seen nor read an "original" text in hebrew or greek. These are copies of copies or rewrites times a multitude from the actual "originals".

 

#2. Noone who thinks they understand the greek to read these copies of copies has any true clue to what the ancient greek meanings actually were. They only have loose guesses of modern greek translations they attempt to apply.

 

It still amazes me to see men quote the "greek copy of copies" with their modern quessicon translations with authority, as if they know they are right- it is sadly laughable to me.

 

The real point is this folks. Do you have God's complete Word in the KJB or not. This is simply a matter of faith.  And without faith it is impossible to please Him. And without His Word we would have never heard of Him. So your faith better FIRST be in His Word or you have have no faith.

 

think about it.


Edited by wretched, 13 June 2014 - 01:42 PM.


#24 Jeffrey

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 01:29 PM

CL and Luanne,
Just to clarify, I am not anti- KJV, I more or less have a problem with Peter Ruckman, Sam Gipps of the world. If a brother/sister in Christ wants to use the KJV, great! I also believe that other translations are profitable. That's why I have Augustine's quote in my signature.( BTW . I found that quote in the transcription of the translators of the KJB)
Out if the 7 Bibles I own at home, 4 of them are KJ, a Scofield, an Open BibLe,Thompson chain reference and a huuuuge Bible that was given to us on my wife's and I wedding day.
I also own an NIV, ESV and a NLT. At our church we corporately use an ESV, which my old IFB church switched to a few years before I left.

#25 HappyChristian

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 01:52 PM

Sorry, wretched - I went to school near PBI and had to deal with a number of the students...AND family members who were taught and believed the double inspiration doctrine.  I know what they say - about reading between the lines and correcting the Greek. False doctrines and some really egregious ideas have come from it.



#26 candlelight

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 04:25 PM

CL and Luanne,
Just to clarify, I am not anti- KJV, I more or less have a problem with Peter Ruckman, Sam Gipps of the world. If a brother/sister in Christ wants to use the KJV, great! I also believe that other translations are profitable. That's why I have Augustine's quote in my signature.( BTW . I found that quote in the transcription of the translators of the KJB)
Out if the 7 Bibles I own at home, 4 of them are KJ, a Scofield, an Open BibLe,Thompson chain reference and a huuuuge Bible that was given to us on my wife's and I wedding day.
I also own an NIV, ESV and a NLT. At our church we corporately use an ESV, which my old IFB church switched to a few years before I left.

 

That's alright if you have a problem with Ruckman and Gipp, Jeffrey.  Lots of people in the JKVO camp do, as well.

Augustine came out of the RCC and is a heretic.  If you would like to no more about his teachings, please let me know as you are aware that I was a former RC.

I see no problem with owning various Bibles, if you want to compare them to one another, however, if you believe in the "Rapture" then I wouldn't have them around the house, for others to use after the "catching away" of born again believers occur.  While the Great Tribulation will be a time for the Jews, there will still be Tribulation saints, as well.  I wouldn't leave MV's in my house, but that is just me.



#27 Jordan G

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 04:31 PM

Hence, this is the problem u have with these people who feel that the 1611 is better than the originals. It puts the translation as an idol and people worship it, rather than God our Savior.
Saw this on another forum;
apparently the KJV agrees with the Watch Tower Society

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV

John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NIV

John 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. ESV

John 14:14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. NASB

John 14:14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. HCSB


you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues

http://av1611.com/kj...agicmarker.html

ill leave that for you, although I'm sure you've seen it already. Ill stick with the KJB.



#28 Jeffrey

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 04:50 PM

http://av1611.com/kj...agicmarker.html
ill leave that for you, although I'm sure you've seen it already. Ill stick with the KJB.


Knock yourself out big boy!

#29 candlelight

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:20 PM

LuAnne said:

"I don't get your reference to Crislam, though..."

___________________

 

Sorry, I misread this HC.  My reference to Chrislam is that Rick Warren put together the book, "A Purpose Driven Life."  That book included all Bibles in it.  It was a whole variety of MV's rolled into one book.  In regards to Chrislam?  Muslims are always telling Christians that one of the reasons they don't believe in Christianity is b/c of the variety of Bibles we have.  Rick Warren's promotion of his book added to this.  He is encouraging Christians to make peace with Muslims.  Somehow, I think his book had something to do with him promoting Chrislam.  I could see that coming a mile away.



#30 Alimantado

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 01:48 PM

The real point is this folks. Do you have God's complete Word in the KJB or not. This is simply a matter of faith.  And without faith it is impossible to please Him. And without His Word we would have never heard of Him. So your faith better FIRST be in His Word or you have have no faith.

 

think about it.

 

People can and do hear and respond to the simple Gospel message with a saving faith in Jesus Christ when they've never laid eyes on a copy of the Bible, let alone an AV copy, or are even able to read.



#31 Jeffrey

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 01:56 PM

People can and do hear and respond to the simple Gospel message with a saving faith in Jesus Christ when they've never laid eyes on a copy of the Bible, let alone an AV copy, or are even able to read.

^this^

#32 Jeffrey

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 01:59 PM

LuAnne said:"I don't get your reference to Crislam, though..."
___________________[/size]

 
Sorry, I misread this HC.  My reference to Chrislam is that Rick Warren put together the book, "A Purpose Driven Life."  That book included all Bibles in it.  It was a whole variety of MV's rolled into one book.  In regards to Chrislam?  Muslims are always telling Christians that one of the reasons they don't believe in Christianity is b/c of the variety of Bibles we have.  Rick Warren's promotion of his book added to this.  He is encouraging Christians to make peace with Muslims.  Somehow, I think his book had something to do with him promoting Chrislam.  I could see that coming a mile away.[/size]

Candle, can you clarify your statement about making peace with Muslims? I have never read Rick Warren, so I don't understand the context of your statement.

#33 candlelight

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:20 AM

Candle, can you clarify your statement about making peace with Muslims? I have never read Rick Warren, so I don't understand the context of your statement.

 

There is a movement called Chrislam that is creeping into our churches, Jeffrey.  Imams are invited to attend churches to try and bring Christianity and Islam together.  How can that be done?  Muslims don't worship Jesus Christ.  They worship Allah, a false god.  Anyway, Rick Warren is promoting this.  He is a false prophet who is promoting Chrislam.  Rick Warren believes in Modern Versions of the Bible.  When I witness to Muslims, the one thing they always say is that they can't believe in Christianity b/c we have so many Bibles.  That is the point I am trying to make.  



#34 Jeffrey

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:00 AM

There is a movement called Chrislam that is creeping into our churches, Jeffrey.  Imams are invited to attend churches to try and bring Christianity and Islam together.  How can that be done?  Muslims don't worship Jesus Christ.  They worship Allah, a false god.  Anyway, Rick Warren is promoting this.  He is a false prophet who is promoting Chrislam.

Yeah, that doesn't seem very cool. Bringing in  people to speak at the pulpit who don't believe isn't the smartest thing to do.

 

 

  Rick Warren believes in Modern Versions of the Bible.  When I witness to Muslims, the one thing they always say is that they can't believe in Christianity b/c we have so many Bibles.  That is the point I am trying to make.  

The reason the Muslims believe this is that, is because a true Muslim has to learn Arabic to "properly learn Islam"( told to me from a Muslim). you can read a Koran in English, but then, it is not a true Koran. you must read it in Arabic.( that comment makes me think of Sam Gipp's comment)

Our Scripture is in different languages and translation because our own language has transformed through the years. the word gay is a good example. If somebody was happy when I was a child, they were in a gay mood. If i was to say that today, I would probably get asked out by a fellow co-worker.



#35 John81

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 01:06 PM

I've had many encounters with Muslims who denounce Christianity as not having a holy book that Christians agree upon. They are quick to point out the many differences between the wide variety of versions as their proof Christianity follows men, not God.

 

Every Koran I've seen has English (or another language) on one page and the original Arabic on the opposite. Islamic teaching is specific that the Arabic Koran is perfect, the absolute word of their god. If there is any difference between the Arabic Koran and any translation their teaching is clear that the Arabic is absolute and the translation in error.

 

Whenever I've dealt with Muslims in a real exchange I've always insisted that the KJB is the Word of God and that I don't consult or read any of the "versions" they want to toss out. The Muslims I've dealt with respect that and we've conducted our discussion on that foundation.



#36 Jeffrey

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 01:37 PM

I've had many encounters with Muslims who denounce Christianity as not having a holy book that Christians agree upon. They are quick to point out the many differences between the wide variety of versions as their proof Christianity follows men, not God.

because we don't read it in the original languages, Greek, Hebrew, has been the complaint of the Muslims I dealt with. so regardless if you hold to a KJV position with them it doesn't resonate with them.

 

 

The Muslims I've dealt with respect that and we've conducted our discussion on that foundation.

The times i have witnessed to Muslims, they seem to have an issue to who Jesus is, and it never has turned out well. It never focused on what translations as such as to why they fail to see God incarnate as Jesus.They also seem to struggle with thr grace based aspect of salvation and have a heavy works based salvation. 

 All my opportunities with Muslims have never been peaceful and actually, the last time I witnessed to a man named Adbed(?), if I wasnt twice his size, I really think he would have come after me. Reading his body language, balled fists, gritting teeth, I really thought it was going to get physical.



#37 John81

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 01:56 PM

So far the Muslims I've dealt with have accepted that since I believe the KJB to be God's Holy Word in English and confine myself to quoting from and citing what's in the KJB, they are willing to respect that I believe that is truly our (Christianity) Holy Book in English.

 

Most of my encounters with Muslims have been fairly civil, a few were more tense, and in one instance a young Muslim was very angry and wanted to get aggressive and I do believe if the older Muslim, who was of a more reasonable nature, hadn't been there, the young Muslim would have sought to silence me with his fists.

 

The bulk of my experience with Muslims was in the 90s. I have noticed a trend that more Muslims today seem defensive and quick to take offense and become angry and potentially violent than they did back then. It seems the larger the local Muslim population, the more antagonistic and aggressive the Muslims are.



#38 Covenanter

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 03:31 PM

The Muslim objection predates the modern versions. The many Greek manuscripts even of the Received Text have small variations. Erasmus did his best. 

 

The idea that there is one perfect original Koran is fiction - nothing was written by Mohammed - he recited what he claimed he received & his followers remembered, more or less. Various followers wrote what they remembered. After his death they put it in order trying to agree on what was authentic. The Caliph then took a set of Surahs that he declared were authentic & made sure all other versions were destroyed.

 

And memorizing & reciting it in Arabic is more important than understanding it - you can't really live by its teaching.



#39 wretched

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 10:09 PM

People can and do hear and respond to the simple Gospel message with a saving faith in Jesus Christ when they've never laid eyes on a copy of the Bible, let alone an AV copy, or are even able to read.

 

Agreed but yet still not the point.

 

The point is no one would know of the Gospel to speak it to these people you mention without the written Word of God. All faith in the last 2000 years begins, grows, is sustained and ends with it. So your faith in the Word as complete and perfect makes sense to anyone reasonable when you consider that without it, you have nothing.



#40 Jeffrey

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 10:23 PM

Agreed but yet still not the point.

 

The point is no one would know of the Gospel to speak it to these people you mention without the written Word of God. All faith in the last 2000 years begins, grows, is sustained and ends with it. So your faith in the Word as complete and perfect makes sense to anyone reasonable when you consider that without it, you have nothing.

The Holy Spirit is the saving agent that uses the Scriptures, but without the Holy Spirit, it's all for naught.






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