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John Calvin Had It All Wrong


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#1 Calvary

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 01:14 PM

Seems to me folks want to debate a bunch of things here, it also seemed to me a few months ago that I lamented the fact several posters here push an agenda of their false teachings and are not open to any other opinion about it. You can see them as being manifest by always trying to post the last word.

I sort of miss the forum I signed onto several years ago. We would disagree, but over all, the postings were baptistic in heir stand, the fellowship was a lot better. Now it seems to me there are only factions.

 

Calvinism is a blight upon the faith. It is a system of twisted scriptures, out of context surmising and a complicated maze of un-biblical words like

 SUPRALAPSARIANISM,  INFRALAPSARIANISM, and who knows what else. I can´t even pronounce that clap trap let alone find it in the Bible.

 

I´m gonna post a few chapters from a book I´ve had for some time. Simple, scriptural and I am not looking for responses, although feel free to write whatever you want, I am not debating, I am posting scriptural truth.

I for one cannot suffer the utterly false system of doctrine known as Calvinism. I personally believe that its´s adherents are unsaved. You can argue that all you want.

 

I´m trusting Christ and His finished work on Calvary. I have never trusted in any election to be saved. The Bible never asked me to put my faith in any election, be it foreknown or predestined.

 

 

 

 

The word "predestination" comes from the Greek verb "proorizo."  It means, according to Vine's Expository Words on the Greek New Testament, to "mark out beforehand, to determine before, foreordain."  In essence, "predestination" means that something has been predicted by God and it must and will come to pass.

The word "predestinate" as translated in the KJV is found only twice; that being in Rom_8:29-30.  "Predestinated" is found only twice and that is in Ephesians; once in Eph_1:5 and once in Eph_1:11.  These two words do not appear in the Old Testament. 

We shall examine who is predestinated, what event is predestinated and when it will take place.
- Max Younce
 



#2 EKSmith

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:57 PM

Yep I'm a IFB  I do not except this false teaching nor will I debate it with anyone

I will however ask one that they will allow God to reveal unto them His truth through His Holly Word   

Thank you for the post we never grow to old to learn

God bless 


Edited by EKSmith, 25 June 2014 - 08:07 PM.


#3 Calvary

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 01:45 PM

A.    Eph_1:5 - Redemption Of The Body At The Rapture

Let us begin with Eph_1:5…

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Notice who is predestinated.  It can only be one of two groups: the saved or the lost.  Paul identifies the children of God as the object of being predestinated, "Having predestinated us (plural pronoun)."  This is Paul and every saved person.  God did not predestinate anyone to be saved, but this teaches He predestinated something for those who are already saved.

What did God predestinate for the Christian?  The Scriptures are pure and simple.  The Christian is predestinated unto the adoption of children (Greek, HUIOTHESIA, meaning son ship).  When we trust Christ as our Savior, we become His children:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons (Greek, TEKNON, meaning-a child.) of God, even to them that believeth on his name." - Joh_1:12

We are positioned in Heaven as a son now, but we do not come to the realization of our son ship until the Rapture.

The Jewish Bar Mitzvah may aid in understanding adoption and son ship.  Bar Mitzvah means "a son of the commandments, or the placing of a son."  When a Jewish boy reaches the age of 13, he is then considered as a adult.  He is expected to accept adult religious responsibilities.  It is a joyful occasion accompanied by gifts from friends and family.  He is no longer considered a child, but an adult son.

The word "adoption" is derived from the Greek word "huiothesia," from "huios", meaning "a son" and "thesis" "a placing."  Therefore,  "the placing of a son."  Just as a Jewish boy is placed as an adult son on the day he reaches 13, we Christians also experience our son ship when we are placed in Heaven at the day of the Rapture.  This is when we have our physical bodies redeemed for a new glorified body.  It could be no clearer than stated in Rom_8:23 :

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY."

In summary:

WHO:    Negative: Nowhere are the lost said to be predestinated to be saved.
             Positive: The saved are predestinated to receive something.

WHAT: The Adoption.  Rom_8:23, "the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
 
WHEN: At the Rapture.  1Th_4:17, 1Co_15:50-54.  - Max Younce

 

 

God bless,

calvary

 

That´s as clear as one could want. John Calvin´s theology is a blatantly false.


Edited by Calvary, 26 June 2014 - 01:46 PM.


#4 Calvary

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 12:11 PM

Author Max Younce continues in his concise and direct exposé of Calvinism as a false belief system.

 

B.    Eph_1:11-12.- This Is Not Our Testimony

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

Notice the use of the word "we", a plural pronoun.  Paul is including himself and all Christians.  They have obtained an inheritance.  This identifies those who are predestinated for something as being already saved.  We can see in Eph_1:12 what the Christian is predestinated to receive.

What is predestinated is according to the Lord's purpose.  He will also bring it to pass "after the counsel of his own will."  "His own will" lets us know that God does not leave what He predestinated to be brought to pass by the volition or faithfulness of man.  Therefore, we can rest assured... what God predestinated will come to pass!

In summary: The saved are the recipients of being predes-tinated.  It was God's purpose to do so and He will bring it to pass Himself.  We are told in Eph_1:12 what is predestinated:

"That we (Christians) should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

At first glance one may think this means it is God's will that every Christian should lead a separated life, which would be to the praise of His glory.  This is certainly God's will for every believer (Rom_12:1-2).  However, this cannot be the meaning of this verse, if taken in context, as the fulfillment of what was predestinated.  If this were true, then it has not come to pass in every Christian's life.  Remember, what God predestinates will, without exception, come to pass.  The reason being, every Christian is the recipient of what is predestinated.  Not every Christian leads a separated life.  In fact, some Christians never lead a separated life from the time they are saved until they leave this earth!

To what is this referring?  It has reference to the event of the Rapture when, without exception, every Christian will be to the praise of His glory.  The Bridegroom (Christ) is looking in expectation for His Bride (the Church).  The Church (every believer) is looking for the Bridegroom to return and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  This meeting is the fulfillment of what Christ predestinated for every believer.  Remember--what is predestinated must come to pass.

If "to the praise of his glory" meant leading a separated life, it may not come to pass, for all Christians are not yielding their lives to God's will.  Christ never leaves what He predestinates to be fulfilled by the volition of man.  By the determined will and power of God, the Rapture will fulfill every qualifying aspect of His predestination,

"that we should be to the praise of His glory."

 

Good stuff folks and I hope this is a help to many of you.

 

God bless,

calvary
 



#5 mkrishna

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 12:52 PM

Before John Calvin came along, I wonder where Calvinists went to church. Probably almost no Calvinists existed before then.


Edited by mkrishna, 27 June 2014 - 12:55 PM.


#6 Calvary

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 03:56 PM

C.    Rom_8:29 - The Elements of "Foreknowledge" & "Predestination"

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

The statement is heard many times, "You cannot reconcile the sovereignty of God and the free will of man."  This is not true--one can understand both.  The confusion exists when one does not properly understand the meaning of foreknowledge and predestination.  Foreknowledge is an attribute of God's omniscience.  Primarily, foreknowledge had to do with persons and places, and predestination is centered in God's purposes.

Foreknowledge contains ONE element, that is, knowing what is going to happen before it takes place.  In relation to people and places, it does not contain the element of bringing it to pass or making it happen.

Predestination, on the other hand, is different from fore-knowledge in that it contains TWO elements: One is the prediction (His omniscience) and the other is the act of God  (His omnipotence) to bring it to pass.  The confusion begins when one inserts meanings into a word which it does not con-tain.  Remember, keep these two words separated as to their meaning.

Foreknowledge has ONE element, that of foreknowing what is going to happen.  Do not add any other meanings to this word, it contains one element only!

Predestination has TWO elements; one is predicting, the other fulfilling.  Again, predestination is related to God's purposes, foreknowledge is related to persons and places.

In Rom_8:29 we are told:

"For whom he (Christ) did foreknow..."

This simply states that Christ knew ahead of time every person who would trust Him as their Savior.  The word carries no other element which would impede the free will of a person to make their own choice.  Every Christian who would be saved is foreknown of God.  We also see that every Christian is going to be the recipient of what God is going to predestinate.

"For whom he did foreknow (every Christian) He also did predestinate."

He foreknew every person who would be saved.  His purpose is seen in predestination as we are predestinated to what?

"To be conformed to the image of his son."

When will we be conformed to the image of God's Son?  At the Rapture, of course!

In Php_3:20-21 we are told:

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body."

This is being conformed to the image of His Son.

In 1Jn_3:2 we read:

"Beloved, now are we the sons (Greek, TEKNON, children) of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when he shall appear (Rapture) , WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is."

Predestination becomes very clear if we do two things: One, take exactly what the Scripture says and believe it.  Two, know the difference between foreknowledge and predestination and add no other elements of meaning to them.  Foreknowledge has one element while predestination has two.

In summary: Rom_8:29 teaches the following according to predestination:

WHO:   Only the saved are predestinated, not the lost.
 
WHAT: Christians are predestinated at some future time to "be conformed to the image of His Son."
 
WHEN: At the Rapture. Php_3:20-21, and 1Jn_3:2. - Max Younce

 

 

Clear, simple and irrefutable scripture to demonstrate that Calvinism, classic or any modern hybrids are just babble and nonsense.

 

God bless,

calvary
 



#7 Calvary

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 02:12 PM

CHAPTER TWO
EXAMINING VERSES USED TO SUPPORT ELECTION

We are going to examine some of the verses that are used to endorse the doctrine of election to salvation.  It is amazing how some will pull verses out of context that clearly have to do with service and God's provision for His saints and attempt to apply these to salvation.  It is unbelievable to what extremes men will go in an attempt to prove this doctrine.  They extract a line or verse from the context and apply it to support their particular false teaching.
 

 

    Luk_4:25-29 - A Widow & A King, Chosen To Sustain A Prophet & Show God's Power

“But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land. (25)

But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. (26)

And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. (27)
               

And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath. (28)

And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.” Luk_4:25-29

Christ made these statements while speaking in the synagogue as an illustration.  Now Mr. Nettleton gives his statement concerning these verses on page 26 of his book, Chosen to Salvation:

“One out of many widows was chosen, and one out of many lepers was cleansed. The result of such teaching was anger. Special mercy was shown to the widow and to the leper.”

We are going to examine the Old Testament account more thoroughly and see what the real purpose of God was in directing Elijah to the widow's house.  The record of Elijah going to the widow's home is found in 1Ki_17:9.  When we begin with the 17th Chapter of 1 Kings, we find that there had been a famine in the land and that Elijah had been by the brook, Cherith, that is the brook before Jordan.  We find out here that Elijah had been fed by the ravens, but when the brook dried up God then directed him to go to this woman's house.  We are going to find out the purpose for this as it is a far cry from electing this woman, and then using this as an illustration for salvation as Nettleton has done. 

It is hard for me to believe that someone would do this, when in reality, the Scriptures teach that God had a purpose for sending Elijah to this widow woman.  This purpose is found in 1Ki_17:9 :

“Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which belongeth to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.”

The reason for this sustenance was that the brook had dried up.  You will notice that in 1Ki_17:7 of this same chapter:

“And it came to pass after a while, that the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land.”

Therefore, God had directed Elijah to go to this particular town where the widow woman lived.  She was to sustain him, feed him and to water him, as this was the purpose of God.  For one to apply this to salvation is unbelievable!

Let us continue to read the entire story as found in 1 Kings, Chapter 17.  We find that after the widow had fed Elijah and given him water, he stayed for a time.  Now we pick up the story in 1Ki_17:17,

“And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. (17)

And she said unto Elijah, what have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? Art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?” (18)

Perhaps the woman thought her son had been slain because of some past sin that she had committed.  We do not know for sure as this is all that is given.  But we find out that Elijah had prayed to God for life to be restored to her son.  God had seen fit to honor Elijah's prayer as God had a purpose in restoring his life again.  He, evidently, had been dead for just a short period of time.  Now, the record is found in 1Ki_17:22-24 :

“And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. (22).

And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth. (23).

And the woman said to Elijah, now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in thy mouth is truth.” (24).

There was a twofold reason for God's directing Elijah to this woman's house.  The first reason, of course, being that God had spoken to this woman to care for Elijah.  We find this in 1Ki_17:9, in the last part of the verse:

“…behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.”

So we see the first purpose of sending Elijah to the widow woman was to have her sustain Elijah.  Could the Lord have stated it any clearer?

Nettleton cites this case as evidence and leverage to support his contention that some are elected to salvation.  It would have been nice of Nettleton to have informed his readers of GOD'S PURPOSE for using the widow woman in sustaining Elijah.  She could have been the only available person in the vicinity that was saved, we do not really know.  Nevertheless, in spite of God's stating His purpose, Nettleton chose to use this event to support his own purpose of endorsing election to salvation.  He, himself, is proof of the freewill of man.  It would be inconceivable that God would direct someone to use Scripture and apply it contrary to the purpose clearly stated in His word.

Again, He used the widow woman to sustain His servant, Elijah.  He could have chosen anyone, but He happened to choose this woman--NOT TO SALVATION--as this has nothing to do with salvation at all.

The second purpose was to prove to this woman, by the raising of her son from the dead, that Elijah was truly God's prophet.  There were many miracles done in the Old and New Testaments, but this had absolutely nothing to do with salvation.  Remember, the purpose of the miracle was to convince the woman that Elijah was a true prophet.

Nettleton also uses Luk_4:27 as support of his doctrine of election:

“And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.”

Let us notice the record of this that Christ quoted is found in the Old Testament in 2Ki_5:3-15.  One should take time and read the whole account for themselves.  In essence, we find that Naaman was a Syrian and he was a captain of the host of the king of Syria.  He was a great man with his master, honorable, and a mighty man in valor but he was a leper, as recorded in 2Ki_5:1.  We find out how this whole situation took place, how God worked and the reason for all of this concerning Naaman, the leper. 

God's purpose for healing him was to prove that there was a true God in Israel!  God performed this miracle in healing the leper, to prove to all the company that was with him at that time, that only the true God of Israel could do such a thing.  This He did by the prophet, Elisha.

Again we emphasize that this had nothing to do with salvation whatsoever!  God performed this miracle to substantiate the fact that there was only one God and that was Israel's JEHOVAH.  This was the purpose of God.

We find when we read on in the story and let the Scriptures speak for themselves, the purpose of God is made known.  In 2Ki_5:2 we find that the Syrians had gone out by companies and had brought away captive out of the land of Israel a little maid who waited on Naaman's wife.  He had taken the girl into his home and she was the maid of the house.  She knew that her master was a leper and she told her mistress how he could be cured. The record is found in 2Ki_5:3 :

“….Would God my lord were with the prophet that is in Samaria! for he would recover him of his leprosy.”

This information came to the king of Syria, who sent a letter to the king of Israel, who at that time was Jehoram.  When Jehoram got the letter he made the statement, “I'm not God!”  It is recorded in 2Ki_5:7 :

“And it came to  pass when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy.  Wherefore consider, I pray you…”

Now when Elisha heard of this he said, “Send the man unto me,” and this is exactly what happened.  We are told that Naaman came unto the house of Elisha who gave him instructions to follow so his leprosy would be cured.  Here is the record found in 2Ki_5:9-10 :

“So Naaman came with his horses and his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha.

And Elisha sent a message unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.”

When Naaman heard this he became very angry because he thought Elisha would just come out of the house and put his hand over him and he would be healed.  That is not the way God chose to do it.  Notice 2Ki_5:13 :

“And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, my father, if the prophet had bid thee to do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? How much rather then, when he saith to thee, wash and be clean?”

They talked him into it and he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan River.  The last part of 2Ki_5:14 tells us that he was cleansed.  Then in 2Ki_5:15 the REASON for this is stated:

“And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now, therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.”

This was the purpose of God in sending Naaman to his prophet, Elisha.  It was to be a testimony by the healing of this man, that God was truly the God of Israel.  No idolistic gods could do what the true God had just done.

It taxes my imagination to see someone use these Scriptures to support a false doctrine of electing some to be saved and others to be lost.  Again, allow me to quote Nettleton's statement after using these verses in support of his doctrine. (Chosen to Salvation, page 26.)

“One out of many widows was chosen, and one out of many lepers was cleansed. The result of such teaching was anger. Special mercy was shown to the widow and to the leper.”

Also quoting, page 13 and 14 of Chosen to Salvation.

“There are two things man will never understand this side of Heaven: how God could elect to save some sinners and not others…”

How important it is to study the Scriptures for your-self.  How contradictory Nettleton's applications are to the clear purpose of God as stated in His word.  Allow me to summarize briefly the purpose of God in each event:

A.    Elijah sent to the widow's house. 
    PURPOSE—“I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.” - 1Ki_17:9

B.    Elijah restores life to the widow's son.
PURPOSE—“Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in thy mouth is truth.” - 1Ki_17:24

C.    Elisha directs Naaman who is healed of leprosy.
    PURPOSE—“...Behold, now I (Naaman) know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel…” - 2Ki_5:15

The over-all scene is clearly pictured in Luk_4:14-29.  Christ was raised in Nazareth as a child (Luk_2:39-40).  In His ministry, He returned to Nazareth and preached in the synagogue (Luk_4:16).  He is telling the Jews that he was anointed to heal the brokenhearted, preach deliverance to the captives and open the eyes of the blind (18).  They ask Him to do the same miracles here in Nazareth that they heard He had done in Capernaum.  Christ knew they would not believe Him, even if He did them; therefore He stated that “…No prophet is accepted in his own country (Luk_4:23-24)." To substantiate this, He uses two Old Testament illustrations, one of Elisha and the other concerning Elijah (Luk_4:25-27). In other words, the same principle was true in Old Testament times as it was in Jesus' day.

“For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country.” - Joh_4:44.

To extract theses two illustrations used by Christ and attempt to make them support the doctrine of election to salvation is asinine!  May we always take time to examine the Scriptures for ourselves. Max Younce

 

God bless,

calvary
 



#8 Invicta

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 06:40 PM

Before John Calvin came along, I wonder where Calvinists went to church. Probably almost no Calvinists existed before then.

 

Where?  Luther taught the same.  Some say that it goes back to Augustine.  However it seems to me that Clement in his Epistle to the Corinthians also taught it. 



#9 Invicta

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 07:14 PM

The 1644 London baptist confession of faith Articles 5&6

 

V.

All mankind being thus fallen, and become altogether dead in sins and trespasses, and subject to the eternal wrath of the great God by transgression; yet the elect, which God has(1) loved with an everlasting love, are(2) redeemed, quickened, and saved, not by themselves, neither by their own works, lest any man should boast himself, but wholly and only by God of(3) His free grace and mercy through Jesus Christ, who of God is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, that as it is written he that rejoices, let him rejoice in the Lord.

1) Jer. 31:2
2) Gen 3:15; Eph. 1:3, 7; 2:4, 9; 1 Thes. 5:9; Acts 13:38
3) 1 Cor.5:21; Jer. 9:23, 24

VI.

(1) This therefore is life eternal, to know the only true God, and whom He has sent Jesus Christ.(2) And on the contrary, the Lord will render vengeance in flaming fire to them that know not God, and obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1) John 17:3; Heb. 5:9; Jer. 23:5, 6
2) 2 Thes. 1:8; John 3:36

 

Conclusion

Thus we desire to give unto Christ that which is His, and unto all lawful Authority that which is their due, and to owe nothing to any many but love, to live quietly and peaceably, at is becometh saints, endeavoring in all things to keep a good conscience, and to do unto every man (of what judgment soever) as we would they should do unto us, that as our practice is, so it may prove us to a conscionable, quiet, and harmless people, (no ways dangerous or troublesome to human Society) and to labor and work with our hands, that we may not be chargeable to any, but to give to him that needeth both friends and enemies, accounting it more excellent to give than to receive. Also we confess that we know but in part, and that we are ignorant of many things which we desire and seek to know: and if any do show us that friendly part to show us from the Word of God that we see not, we shall have cause to be thankful to God and them. But if any man shall impose upon us anything that we see not to be commanded by out Lord Jesus Christ, we should in His strength, rather embrace all reproaches and tortures of men, to be stript of all outward comforts, and if it were possible, to die a thousand deaths, rather than to do anything against the least tittle of the truth of God, or against the light of our own consciences. And if any shall call what we have said heresy, then do we with the Apostle acknowledge, that after the way they call heresy, worship we the God of our Fathers, disclaiming all heresy (rightly so called) because they are against Christ, and to be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in obedience to Christ, as knowing our labor shall not be in vain in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:24
Not that we have dominion over your faith,but
are helpers of your joy: for by faith we stand.

Psalm 74:21, 22
Arise, O God, plead mine own cause. Remember how the foolish man blasphemeth Thee daily. O let not the oppressed return ashamed, but let the poor and needy praise Thy name.
Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly.

 

The 1646  London baptist confession of faith Articles 5 to 9

 

V.

 

God in His infinite power and wisdom, doth dispose all things to the end for which they were created; that neither good nor evil befalls any by chance, or without His providence; and that whatsoever befalls the elect, is by His appointment, for His glory, and their good.

 

Job 38:11; Isa. 46:10,11, Eccles. 3:14, Mark 10:29,30; Exod. 21:13; Prov. 16:33, Rom. 8:28.

 

VI.

 

All the elect being loved of God with an everlasting love, are redeemed, quickened, and saved, not by themselves, nor their own works, lest any man should boast, but, only and wholly by God, of His own free grace and mercy, through Jesus Christ, who is made unto us by God, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, and all in all, that he that rejoiceth, might rejoice in the Lord.

 

Jer. 31:2; Eph. 1:3, 7, 2:8,9; 1 Thess. 5:9, Acts 13:48; 2 Cor. 5:21; Jer. 9:23,24; 1 Cor. 1:30,31; Jer. 23:6.

 

VII.

 

And this is life eternal, that we might know Him the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent. And on the contrary, the Lord will render vengeance, in flaming fire, to them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

John 17:3; Heb. 5:9, 2 Thess. 1:8; John 6:36.

 

VIII.

 

The rule of this knowledge, faith, and obedience, concerning the worship of God, in which is contained the whole duty of man, is (not men's laws, or unwritten traditions, but) only the word of God contained [viz., written] in the holy Scriptures; in which is plainly recorded whatsoever is needful for us to know, believe, and practice; which are the only rule of holiness and obedience for all saints, at all times, in all places to be observed.

 

Col. 2:23; Matt 15:6,9; John 5:39, 2 Tim. 3:15,16,17; Isa. 8:20; Gal. 1:8,9; Acts 3:22,23.

 

IX.

 

The Lord Jesus Christ, of whom Moses and the Prophets wrote, the Apostles preached, He is the Son of God, the brightness of His glory, etc. by whom He made the world; who upholdeth and governeth all things that He hath made; who also when the fulness of time was come, was made of a woman, of the tribe of Judah, of the seed of Abraham and David; to wit, of the virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her, the power of the most High overshadowing her; and He was also tempted as we are, yet without sin.

 

Gen. 3:15, 22:18, 49:10; Dan. 7:13, 9:24, etc.; Prov. 8:23; John 1:1,2,3; Heb. 1:8; Gal. 4:4; Heb. 7:14; Rev. 5:5; Gen. 49:9,10, Rom. 1:3, 9:10; Matt. 1:16; Luke 3:23,26; Heb. 2:16; Isa. 53:3,4,5; Heb. 4:15.

 

The 1689 London Baptist Confession

 


CHAPTER 9; OF FREE WILL

Paragraph 1. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.1
1 Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19

Paragraph 2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God,2 but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.3
2 Eccles. 7:29
3 Gen. 3:6

Paragraph 3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;4 so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin,5 is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.6
4 Rom. 5:6, 8:7
5 Eph. 2:1,5
6 Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44

Paragraph 4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin,7 and by His grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;8 yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he does not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.9
7 Col. 1:13; John 8:36
8 Phil. 2:13
9 Rom. 7:15,18,19,21,23

Paragraph 5. This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in
the state of glory only.10
10 Eph. 4:13

CHAPTER 10; OF EFFECTUAL CALLING

Paragraph 1. Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, He is pleased in His appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call,1 by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;2 enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;3 taking away their heart of stone, and giving to them a heart of flesh;4 renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;5 yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.6
1 Rom. 8:30, 11:7; Eph. 1:10,11; 2 Thess. 2:13,14
2 Eph. 2:1-6
3 Acts 26:18; Eph. 1:17,18
4 Ezek. 36:26
5 Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 36:27; Eph. 1:19
6 Ps. 110:3; Cant. 1:4

Paragraph 2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature,7 being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;8 he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.9
7 2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:8
8 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:5; John 5:25
9 Eph. 1:19, 20

Paragraph 3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;10 who works when, and where, and how He pleases;11 so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
10 John 3:3, 5, 6
11 John 3:8

Paragraph 4. Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,12 yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:13 much less can men that do not receive the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.14
12 Matt. 22:14, 13:20,21; Heb 6:4,5
13 John 6:44,45,65; 1 John 2:24,25
14 Acts 4:12; John 4:22, 17:3

CHAPTER 11; OF JUSTIFICATION

Paragraph 1. Those whom God effectually calls, he also freely justifies,1 not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;2 not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone;3 not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith,4 which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.5
1 Rom. 3:24, 8:30
2 Rom. 4:5-8, Eph. 1:7
3 1 Cor. 1:30,31, Rom. 5:17-19
4 Phil. 3:8,9; Eph. 2:8-10
5 John 1:12, Rom. 5:17

Paragraph 2. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;6 yet is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love.7
6 Rom. 3:28
7 Gal.5:6, James 2:17,22,26

Paragraph 3. Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those who are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of himself in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due to them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God’s justice in their behalf;8 yet, in as much as he was given by the Father for them, and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them,9 their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.10
8 Heb. 10:14; 1 Pet. 1:18,19; Isa. 53:5,6
9 Rom. 8:32; 2 Cor. 5:21
10 Rom. 3:26; Eph. 1:6,7, 2:7

Paragraph 4. God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect,11 and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;12 nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit in time does actually apply Christ to them.13
11 Gal. 3:8, 1 Pet. 1:2, 1 Tim. 2:6
12 Rom. 4:25
13 Col. 1:21,22, Titus 3:4-7

Paragraph 5. God continues to forgive the sins of those that are justified,14 and although they can never fall from the state of justification,15 yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure;16 and in that condition they usually do not have the light of his countenance restored to them, until  they humble themselves, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.17
14 Matt. 6:12, 1 John 1:7,9
15 John 10:28
16 Ps. 89:31-33
17 Ps. 32:5, Ps. 51, Matt. 26:75

Paragraph 6. The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.18
18 Gal. 3:9; Rom. 4:22-24

CHAPTER 12; OF ADOPTION

Paragraph 1. All those that are justified, God conferred, in and for the sake of his only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption,1 by which they are taken into the number, and enjoy the liberties and privileges of the children of God,2 have his name put on them,3 receive the spirit of adoption,4 have access to the throne of grace with boldness, are enabled to cry Abba, Father,5 are pitied,6 protected,7 provided for,8 and chastened by him as by a Father,9 yet never cast off,10 but sealed to the day of redemption,11 and inherit the promises as heirs of everlasting salvation.12
1 Eph. 1:5; Gal. 4:4,5
2 John 1:12; Rom. 8:17
3 2 Cor. 6:18; Rev. 3:12
4 Rom. 8:15
5 Gal. 4:6; Eph. 2:18
6 Ps. 103:13
7 Prov. 14:26; 1 Pet. 5:7
8 Heb. 12:6
9 Isa. 54:8, 9
10 Lam. 3:31
11 Eph. 4:30
12 Heb. 1:14, 6:12

CHAPTER 13; OF SANCTIFICATION

Paragraph 1. They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are also farther sanctified, really and personally,1 through the same virtue, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them;2 the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,3 and the several lusts of it are more and more weakened and mortified,4 and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,5 to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.6
1 Acts 20:32; Rom. 6:5,6
2 John 17:17; Eph. 3:16-19; 1 Thess. 5:21-23
3 Rom. 6:14
4 Gal. 5:24
5 Col. 1:11
6 2 Cor. 7:1; Heb. 12:14

Paragraph 2. This sanctification is throughout the whole man,7 yet imperfect in this life; there abides still some remnants of corruption in every part,8 wherefrom arises a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.9
7 1 Thess. 5:23
8 Rom. 7:18, 23
9 Gal. 5:17; 1 Pet. 2:11

Paragraph 3. In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail,10 yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome;11 and so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, pressing after an heavenly life, in evangelical obedience to all the commands which Christ as Head and King, in his Word has prescribed to them.12
10 Rom. 7:23
11 Rom. 6:14
12 Eph. 4:15,16; 2 Cor. 3:18, 7:1

CHAPTER 14; OF SAVING FAITH

Paragraph 1. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,1 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word;2 by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened.3
1 2 Cor. 4:13; Eph. 2:8
2 Rom. 10:14,17
3 Luke 17:5; 1 Pet. 2:2; Acts 20:32

Paragraph 2. By this faith a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself,4 and also apprehends an excellency therein above all other writings and all things in the world,5 as it bears forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit in his workings and operations: and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth consequently believed;6 and also acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands,7 trembling at the threatenings,8 and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come;9 but the principle acts of saving faith have immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.10
4 Acts 24:14
5 Ps. 19:7-10, 69:72
6 2 Tim. 1:12
7 John 15:14
8 Isa. 116:2
9 Heb. 11:13
10 John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Gal:20; Acts 15:11

Paragraph 3. This faith, although it be in different stages, and may be weak or strong,11 yet it is in the least degree of it different in the kind or nature of it, as is all other saving grace, from the faith and common grace of temporary believers;12 and therefore, though it may be many times assailed and weakened, yet it gets the victory,13 growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ,14 who is both the author and finisher of our faith.15
11 Heb. 5:13,14; Matt. 6:30; Rom. 4:19,20
12 2 Pet. 1:1
13 Eph. 6:16; 1 John 5:4,5
14 Heb. 6:11,12; Col. 2:2
15 Heb. 12:2

 

The 1996 Baptist Affirmation of faith, updated 1973

 

The doctrine of salvation
1. Conversion

WE BELIEVE that conversion results from effectual calling, and is the state in which the new nature implanted in regeneration becomes active, so that the called persons are consciously involved in salvation, and turn to God.
Conversion always includes the vital elements of repentance and saving faith.

Repentance:
God commands all men everywhere to repent. True repentance is a Spirit-wrought change both of mind and will, which brings a personal conviction of sin, a true sorrow for it and a turning from it. This repentance is experienced in different ways and at different times in the lives of the children of God, and increases in depth as the Holy Spirit reveals some fresh aspect of the corruptions of human nature.

Repentance is not necessarily and exclusively sorrow for particular sins committed by the individual, nor is it only remorse. It is the continuing work of the Holy Spirit leading to Christ, creating a consciousness of the sinfulness of the heart and life, and of failure to reach God’s perfect standard.

Acts 17:30; 1 Thess. 1 :9-10; Acts 20:21; 26:16-18; Isa. 6:5; Luke 18:13; 2 Cor. 7:10.

Saving Faith:
Faith, whereby the children of God come to trust in Christ to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Holy Spirit, and is commonly brought about by the ministry of the Word of God. Saving faith is the gracious gift of God bestowed upon the elect only, and this faith once given is never withdrawn, but the conscious enjoyment of it can be clouded by sin, by doubt, or by neglect of Bible reading, christian fellowship, and the ordinances of God’s house.
John 1 :12; Acts 15:6-11; 16:31; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim 1:12.

2. Assurance

Those who truly believe in the Lord Jesus and love him in sincerity, and who endeavour to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are, by grace, the children of God and are in a state of eternal blessing.

1 John 2:1-3; 3:14-24; 5:13; Rom. 5:2 and 5; 8:14-16; Heb. 10:22.

This certainty is clearly taught in the Scriptures and is based upon an understanding of the saving work of Christ, wherein the believer trusts; and it is further confirmed by the inward witness of the Holy Spirit. It results in humility and a desire for holiness and fills the heart of the believer with deep joy and peace, and gives sacred purpose to his life and expectation of the life come.

Rom. 8:1 and 31-32; 1 John 3:1-3.

Normally faith in Christ, as including trust, carries with it a sense of security, but this is not experienced to the same degree by every believer. The believer may also displease God and grieve the Holy Spirit, and so the comfort of assurance may be impaired.

The development of assurance is brought about the Holy Spirit as the fruit of reflection and growth in grace. It is, therefore, the duty of the believer to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, so that he may live humbly and happily as one of God’s children.

Mat. 6:30; Psa. 42:1-5; 73:1-17; Eph. 4:30; 2 Cor. 3:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; 1 :10; 2 Cor. 6:14-18.

3. Perseverance

Those whom God has regenerated and effectually called into the blessings of his grace can neither totally nor finally fall away, but they shall be graciously preserved throughout life here on earth and be eternally saved.

John 10:28-29; 2 Tim. 2:19.

This blessing of the eternal security of every true believer is based upon God’s purpose and power, and not upon the free will and good works of the believer. It might equally be termed “the preservation of the saints”, and may be defined as that continuous operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer, by which the work of divine grace that is begun in the heart, is continued and brought to completion. It is because God never forsakes his work that believers endure to the end, yet the believer is to work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, remembering that the Lord has said: “he that endureth to the end shall be saved”.

Rom. 8:28-30 and 38-39; 5:8-10; Phil. 1:6; Heb. 6:17-18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5; Phil. 2:11-13; Mat. 10:22.



#10 DaveW

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 12:24 AM

Instead of spamming his thread with a huge discourse on a minor point of history, why not attempt to address the substance of his posts?

#11 Invicta

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:59 AM

Instead of spamming his thread with a huge discourse on a minor point of history, why not attempt to address the substance of his posts?

 

The various Baptist confessions answer all his rants and give all the scripture verses to cover then.  I don't need to add anything.  It is all there.



#12 Covenanter

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 11:04 AM

The Doctrinal Statement of the forum inlcudes:

We believe all men are born sinners and deserving of hell. We believe God sent his only begotten Son Jesus Christ into the world to make a substitutionary sacrifice by his death that was sufficient to atone for the sin of the whole world. We believe man was dead in sin and unable to come to God yet the true light, Jesus Christ , "lighteth every man that cometh into the world" and through that universal grace of light every man is freely afforded the opportunity to repent and come to the light. We reject the doctrine that God has chosen some to go to heaven and has not chosen others. Rather we believe that God, who is rich in mercy, has chosen all mankind for salvation but unfortunately some will go to hell because they, by hardness of heart and self will, chose to frustrate the grace of God by rejecting his free gift and trampling under foot the precious blood of Christ. We believe in order to truly pass from death to life a person must repent of their sins and call upon God to receive salvation and remission of sins by grace through faith in Gods promise and Christ's blood. We believe good works do not and can never have any part in salvation, truly all our righteousness is as filthy rags, however if a person is truly saved good works will follow because their heart has been changed by the operation of God.

I respect the Forum statement, & I can live with it.

 

The OP makes the statement:

 

Calvinism is a blight upon the faith. It is a system of twisted scriptures, out of context surmising and a complicated maze of un-biblical words like

 SUPRALAPSARIANISM,  INFRALAPSARIANISM, and who knows what else. I can´t even pronounce that clap trap let alone find it in the Bible.

 

I´m gonna post a few chapters from a book I´ve had for some time. Simple, scriptural and I am not looking for responses, although feel free to write whatever you want, I am not debating, I am posting scriptural truth.

I for one cannot suffer the utterly false system of doctrine known as Calvinism. I personally believe that its´s adherents are unsaved. You can argue that all you want.

 

I´m trusting Christ and His finished work on Calvary. I have never trusted in any election to be saved. The Bible never asked me to put my faith in any election, be it foreknown or predestined.

That post is seriously in error. "Calvinism" is a nickname applied to the doctrine of the Reformers. Calvin was writing sytematic theology, & some of his teaching was adopted by the Protestant denominations, including Presbyterian, Anglican (including the KJV translators), Independent (Congregational), Baptist & the Puritans generally. All insisted that their doctrinal statements were the teaching of inspired, inerrant Scripture.

 

A reasoned attack on Reformed doctrine should start with an understanding of that doctrine, & statements of relevant doctrine agreed by the various denominations including Baptist, not picking out words from a theoretical discussion, nor gross mis-statements like "I have never trusted in any election to be saved"  nor "I am posting scriptural truth. I for one cannot suffer the utterly false system of doctrine known as Calvinism. I personally believe that its´s adherents are unsaved." The OP is not posting "Scriptural truth" but chapters from an uninspired book.

 

Many teachings of Calvin all here would reject, including infant baptism, church-state links, church jurisdiction over the ungodly (apart from excommunication.) We certainly regard with abhorrence the execution by fire of Servetus. I haven't read the "Institutes." OTOH, many of us have a high regard for evangelists who held Calvinistic doctrine, and preached repentance & faith in Christ alone, knowing that the Holy Spirit would take & apply the preaching of his word to awaken sinners & lead them to repentance. As the Forum statement reads:

We believe the work of the Holy Spirit is to guide believers into all truth and reveal the truth contained in the scriptures to their hearts. His work also includes convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement.

 

To the mods: threads like this are deliberately divisive & unhelpful, using language intended to provoke rather than inform. I do not intend to defend nor promote "Calvinism" but misrepresentations need to be corrected.

 

 

 

 



#13 Calvary

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 11:47 AM

Simple, scriptural and I am not looking for responses, although feel free to write whatever you want, I am not debating, I am posting scriptural truth.

 

The posts stand on their merit.

Calvin´s Institutes are no more inspired than Max Younce

 

Reformed theology ( another unbiblical term), Calvinism, ( another unbiblical term), I see you had no qualms about the long cut and paste from Invicta which was obviously form a non inspired source.

 

Typical -

 

God bless,

calvary



#14 heartstrings

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:51 PM

"Predestination has to do with God's perfect plan and design. Concerning believers , the King James always always speaks of a collective when referring to "predestination" by using plural pronouns like "we, they, them, us, ye or you". it never refers to individuals. The "Bride of Christ" will one day be presented to Him spotless.     because "She" meaning "we" will be conformed to the image of Christ, perfectly sinless, in glorified bodies. Not a single person will get the credit for this because God "predestinated" all of it before the world existed. Each individual has to believe on Jesus Christ, of his own freewill, to become a member of the "bride". This too is included in God's will and perfect design. He doesn't want robots to worship Him: he wants free will.


Edited by heartstrings, 06 July 2014 - 02:55 PM.


#15 Alimantado

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:00 PM

To the mods: threads like this are deliberately divisive & unhelpful, using language intended to provoke rather than inform. I do not intend to defend nor promote "Calvinism" but misrepresentations need to be corrected.

 

Gotta say something about this, Covenanter. You repeatedly remind folk that you are not defending or promoting Calvinism but merely correcting misinterpretations. In the past I've heard the same refrain from many on here who have espoused beliefs contrary to the majority of the board, including SDAs and Church of Christ people back in the day. But if you're correcting misinterpretations then really you are defending it.

 

And to what end? It's not as if you can do it for edification, since the people you wish to correct do not even think you are a Christian. Both Calvary and Heartstrings believe you are not a Christian, and I suspect Dave doesn't either, so to them your 'correcting' is no different to a muslim coming on here and attempting to clear up some specifics. Given this backdrop, your mission just sounds like a case of 'someone's wrong on the internet' syndrome.



#16 DaveW

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:25 PM

Gotta say something about this, Covenanter. You repeatedly remind folk that you are not defending or promoting Calvinism but merely correcting misinterpretations. In the past I've heard the same refrain from many on here who have espoused beliefs contrary to the majority of the board, including SDAs and Church of Christ people back in the day. But if you're correcting misinterpretations then really you are defending it.

And to what end? It's not as if you can do it for edification, since the people you wish to correct do not even think you are a Christian. Both Calvary and Heartstrings believe you are not a Christian, and I suspect Dave doesn't either, so to them your 'correcting' is no different to a muslim coming on here and attempting to clear up some specifics. Given this backdrop, your mission just sounds like a case of 'someone's wrong on the internet' syndrome.


I don't disagree with your general premise of this post, but I have never made that accusation.

If I may explain my position - I believe that anyone who holds to Calvinism as Calvin intended is not trusting in the shed blood of Christ for salvation - their salvation is based on the choice of God. This is unbiblical, for the Bible never says that we are saved by God's choice, but it constantly says we are saved by the precious blood of the Lamb of God.

However, I believe many people who "align with Calvin" do not really understand what Calvin believed and taught. These people might be saved because they believe the surface words without understanding the depth of Calvinism.

I think that there are people in various false churches who are saved in spite of what their church teaches, not because of it.

I have known people who defend Calvin who I would think are saved (I can not know another man's heart for certain), in spite of their defence of the system which teaches salvation not by faith, but by God's choice.
I have also known people who defend Calvin who, by their actions and attitudes, I would think are definitely not saved (again, I can not know another man's heart but the indicators??????? ).

But I have met many people who claim the name of Christ who appear by their life and actions to not know the Saviour.
That is not the exclusive domain of Calvin.

#17 Invicta

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:49 PM

I don't disagree with your general premise of this post, but I have never made that accusation.

If I may explain my position - I believe that anyone who holds to Calvinism as Calvin intended is not trusting in the shed blood of Christ for salvation - their salvation is based on the choice of God. This is unbiblical, for the Bible never says that we are saved by God's choice, but it constantly says we are saved by the precious blood of the Lamb of God.

However, I believe many people who "align with Calvin" do not really understand what Calvin believed and taught. These people might be saved because they believe the surface words without understanding the depth of Calvinism.

I think that there are people in various false churches who are saved in spite of what their church teaches, not because of it.

I have known people who defend Calvin who I would think are saved (I can not know another man's heart for certain), in spite of their defence of the system which teaches salvation not by faith, but by God's choice.
I have also known people who defend Calvin who, by their actions and attitudes, I would think are definitely not saved (again, I can not know another man's heart but the indicators??????? ).

But I have met many people who claim the name of Christ who appear by their life and actions to not know the Saviour.
That is not the exclusive domain of Calvin.

 

While I mostly agree with your post, I would add that some who attack "Calvinism" do not show christian attitude.  I have never supported Calvin, but only what I read in the scripture.  



#18 Calvary

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 06:37 PM

I don't disagree with your general premise of this post, but I have never made that accusation.

If I may explain my position - I believe that anyone who holds to Calvinism as Calvin intended is not trusting in the shed blood of Christ for salvation - their salvation is based on the choice of God. This is unbiblical, for the Bible never says that we are saved by God's choice, but it constantly says we are saved by the precious blood of the Lamb of God.

However, I believe many people who "align with Calvin" do not really understand what Calvin believed and taught. These people might be saved because they believe the surface words without understanding the depth of Calvinism.

I think that there are people in various false churches who are saved in spite of what their church teaches, not because of it.

I have known people who defend Calvin who I would think are saved (I can not know another man's heart for certain), in spite of their defence of the system which teaches salvation not by faith, but by God's choice.
I have also known people who defend Calvin who, by their actions and attitudes, I would think are definitely not saved (again, I can not know another man's heart but the indicators??????? ).

But I have met many people who claim the name of Christ who appear by their life and actions to not know the Saviour.
That is not the exclusive domain of Calvin.

 

I for one cannot suffer the utterly false system of doctrine known as Calvinism. I personally believe that its´s adherents are unsaved. You can argue that all you want.

 

I´m trusting Christ and His finished work on Calvary. I have never trusted in any election to be saved. The Bible never asked me to put my faith in any election, be it foreknown or predestined.

 

That is what I said, it is clearly my opinion, but I conclude that because I´m thinking along the lines of Dave W. I have found that in dealing with classic calvinistic theologians, they present their salvation more as a conclusion to the obvious end of their theological system. Sure, when cornered, they claim the finished work of Jesus on Calvary, yet always lurking under the surface is their belief they are the elect, chosen in Christ since the foundation of the world. My KJB never asks me to trust in any eternal decrees, but rather to trust in the finished work of Christ who made an end to all my sin.

 

God bless,

calvary



#19 John81

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 07:22 PM

One could say "Baptist" applied to anyone or anything other than John the Baptist is an "unbiblical term", as could be said of the trinity or rapture. That doesn't make such a statement in itself true or false and doesn't enhance discussion.

 

Considering everyone knows the position of OB is non-Calvinist and I haven't seen an invasion of folks trying to turn us into Calvinists, how is this thread a help at this point?

 

It's also of no help to claim, from either side, that a position is Scriptural while adding a mix of opinion or emotional statements.

 

There have been Baptist Calvinists and non-Calvinists for centuries; some clearly served the Lord well, some didn't, some it's hard to tell.

 

Myself, I've never encountered a "radical Calvinist" or "hyper Calvinist" in the real world. I've come across some online, but then it seems the internet attracts the fringe of every stripe.

 

I know exceedingly little about Calvin himself. Since Pastor Adrian Rogers (an anti-Calvinist) said Calvin's Institutes is one of the best Christian books ever written, I wouldn't mind trying to read it sometime to find out, but it's obviously not a high priority in my life since I've been saved nearly 33 years and still haven't gotten around to reading it yet!

 

I'm thankful I was saved and matured (not that I'm fully matured, only that I matured in the Lord prior to) before I ever heard of Calvinism or Armenianism or the "I'm not either one" folks.

 

If Calvinists are wrong, they should be corrected in love with the hopes of winning them to the truth. Hitting them upside the head, verbally accosting them, speaking ill of them, conducting our conversation in an ungodly manner isn't going to sway them, but rather make them defensive.

 

Some people say they hate Calvinism but I've heard (read) more about Calvinism over the few years I've been here than I've heard the entire rest of my life; and the threads and postings have mostly been from anti-Calvinists.

 

Is there really anything new to be said on this topic that hasn't probably already been said on OB and has certainly been put forth by others over the centuries?

 

This and tithe threads and pants on women threads seem to be great favorites yet they always take the same course and folks on each side still hold the same view when the threads get locked.



#20 Invicta

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:43 PM

I for one cannot suffer the utterly false system of doctrine known as Calvinism. I personally believe that its´s adherents are unsaved. You can argue that all you want.

 

I´m trusting Christ and His finished work on Calvary. I have never trusted in any election to be saved. The Bible never asked me to put my faith in any election, be it foreknown or predestined.

 

That is what I said, it is clearly my opinion, but I conclude that because I´m thinking along the lines of Dave W. I have found that in dealing with classic calvinistic theologians, they present their salvation more as a conclusion to the obvious end of their theological system. Sure, when cornered, they claim the finished work of Jesus on Calvary, yet always lurking under the surface is their belief they are the elect, chosen in Christ since the foundation of the world. My KJB never asks me to trust in any eternal decrees, but rather to trust in the finished work of Christ who made an end to all my sin.

 

God bless,

calvary

 

Not so,

 

I believe that all saved are elect whether they believe it or not.






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