John Calvin Had It All Wrong

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Posted (edited)

Did Jesus die for the sins of Hitler?  Well, John the Baptist said, of Jesus, "Behold the Lmab of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

 

The sin of the world seems like a pretty all-encompassing thing.

 

Paul, when speaking of the gospel, said, "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" If this is the gospel, which is preached to the LOST, then the "OUR sins" would be speaking universally.

 

Jesus Christ died for ALL the sin of ALL the world-He paid for the sin of the entire world, all the lost. Thus, yes, even for Hitler and Jeffery Dahmer and Ted Bundy and Joseph Stalin and Osama Bin Laden, etc, etc.

 

The question is, Is this to be considered "universal redemption"?   No, redemption is to possess something and then, one day, redeem it to yourself, like buying something on layaway-you can pay for it, but leave it until a convenient time to pick up. It is bought and paid for, your property, but to be redeemed at a later time.  So, Christ paid for the sin of ALL, but not all will be redeemed, because unlike layaway, the product paid for has to be in agreement-they have to accept that payment for themselves. So, some reject that Jesus paid for them, some disbelieve it, some still want to try and pay for themselves.

 

Salvation is like having a gift for someone-its bought and paid for, and I am holding it in my hand, offering it to them-but that person must reach out and accept the gift, or it does them no good-it is theirs, it is paid for, but not accepted. We MUST accept salvation for the salvation to apply to us.

I consider it offensive to insist that Jesus died for the sins of Hitler & all who lived utterly evil lives & died unrepentant. That Jesus did not save sinners for whom he died. Offensive to Jesus, rather than to me. I don't take offence when people disagree with me.

 

General statements like "Behold the Lmab of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."  & "our sins" do not imply universality. "The world" can simply mean the Gentiles as distinct from the Jews. What it cannot mean is "everybody who has ever lived," because the whole world's sins were NOT taken away. If they were, then all the world has had its sins taken away, & all are now no longer sinners. 

 

Why ever did Jesus pray:

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (John 17) ?

Then in John 3 he has declared: God so loved the world. Is Jesus refusing to pray for the world God loves? And is Hitler enjoying the unchanging love of God in Hell?

 

I don't accept your explanation of redemption. Something is mine, but I lose it, someone else takes possession, then I redeem it - buy it back. God's people are his by creation, but are lost sinners. The redemption price is the precious blood of Christ. All would be redeemed if he paid for the sin of all.

 

Certainly we must accept the free gift of salvation, but it is bought & paid for by Christ already. That we accept as the Holy Spirit makes us aware of our sin, & our Saviour.  

Edited by Covenanter

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Don't doubt it Convenanter.  In order for Christ t truly take away the sins of the world it must include even the vilest of men and their sins too.  even if they were not saved.  that is why it says that while we were yet sinner Christ died for us.

 

 Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
 

 

Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
 

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"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

 

We see two groups here:

 

the world: that means, well, the WORLD-everybody. To try to force an interpretation onto it, to mean PART of the world, or the part of the world that was pre-chosen for salvation, but NOT the part that was pre-chsen for hell. It means the world.

 

Whosoever believeth in Him; that means those OF the world that believe and receive salvation.

 

Jesus died for ALL sinners.

 

acts 17:30- :And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:'  God would be unrighteous to command all men to repent, if He knew full well some could not, and the thers would have no choice bUT to repent.

 

Rom 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."  The gift came upon all men-justification was made for all, in nthe death and resurrection of Christ for all men, but not all would accept it, and thus, die in their sins.

 

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.". Jesus draws all, but some reject that drawing.

 

1tim 3:2,3: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

 

1Tim 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."  I believe this verse is extremely telling, because it says He is the Saviour of ALL MEN, SPECIALLY those that believe. not ONLY those that beleve. Jesus is, potentially, Saviour of ALL men, because He died for all men, for the sin of the world, but because some will reject, salvation is not realized for them. So He is Savour of all, but that salvation will only be realized in those who receive, those that believe.

 

John 1:9 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Jesus lights, or enlightens ALL men that come into the world, but some hate the light and refuse it, because they love darkness more.

 

The Bible disagrees time and again with the idea of "world=only some of the world". And really, it would mean only a very tiny portion of the world-that Jesus, out of multiplied billions who would live upon the earth, only a few would be pre-ordined to life by God. God only loves a few, of His choosing, and only sent His Son to die for a few few chosen to life.

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Posted

The scriptures don't say, "once we got saved Christ died for us only".

 

We know there is free will and we know that there could not be predestination because the Holy Bible says,  2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

When we look plainly at the scriptures we see this in one verse.

 

1) If men are predestined then there is no need for them to come to repentance.

2) If God's will that none should perish he could simply just predestine ALL men instead of waiting for them to come to repentance.

3) We would have no need to learn of God's attribute of longsuffering

 

In no way are the 5 points of Calvinism correct.  When just about every point is refuted in this one verse.

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The scriptures don't say, "once we got saved Christ died for us only".

 

We know there is free will and we know that there could not be predestination because the Holy Bible says,  2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

When we look plainly at the scriptures we see this in one verse.

 

1) If men are predestined then there is no need for them to come to repentance.

2) If God's will that none should perish he could simply just predestine ALL men instead of waiting for them to come to repentance.

3) We would have no need to learn of God's attribute of longsuffering

 

In no way are the 5 points of Calvinism correct.  When just about every point is refuted in this one verse.

However, a good Calvinist will argue that "us-ward" refers only to the brethren, those who are destined for salvation, and no others. This is, of course, wrong, because again, you must then take a term like "not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance" actually means, 'not willing that any (of the elect) should perish, but that all (the elect) should come to repentance.  Except that's not what it says, neither in word, context or implication. 'any' and 'all' mean just that, Any and All.

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For God so loved the Reformed, that he gave his only begotten son, that the limited few he had unconditionally chosen to overpower their resistance and thereby believe against their will, should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvin 3:16

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However, a good Calvinist will argue that "us-ward" refers only to the brethren, those who are destined for salvation, and no others. This is, of course, wrong, because again, you must then take a term like "not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance" actually means, 'not willing that any (of the elect) should perish, but that all (the elect) should come to repentance.  Except that's not what it says, neither in word, context or implication. 'any' and 'all' mean just that, Any and All.

Then that is adding to the word and they bring a curses upon them for doing such and that would mean they are not saved.

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For God so loved the Reformed, that he gave his only begotten son, that the limited few he had unconditionally chosen to overpower their resistance and thereby believe against their will, should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvin 3:16

hee hee hee haw haw haw hahahahahha! :nuts:

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Don't doubt it Convenanter.  In order for Christ t truly take away the sins of the world it must include even the vilest of men and their sins too.  even if they were not saved.  that is why it says that while we were yet sinner Christ died for us.

 

 Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
 

 

Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
 

Those Scriptures are, of course, true. Rom. 5 doesn't disprove election. Mat. 19 says that God works the impossible in salvation, & that suggests irresistible grace.

.

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"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

 

We see two groups here:

 

the world: that means, well, the WORLD-everybody. To try to force an interpretation onto it, to mean PART of the world, or the part of the world that was pre-chosen for salvation, but NOT the part that was pre-chsen for hell. It means the world.

 

Whosoever believeth in Him; that means those OF the world that believe and receive salvation.

Jesus was talking to a Pharisee  - Nicodemus - who believed in the salvation of Abraham's physical descendants. The idea of Gentiles being saved horrified them. Now Jesus teaches new birth, & baptism, & counts the world as being loved by God. The world of Gentiles in general.    

 

Jesus died for ALL sinners.

That means there are countless sinners in Hell for whom Jesus paid the full redemption price. Many of whom never heard the Gospel. Some of the antediluvians heard Noah preaching righteousness, & the Sodomites heard Lot's rebuke, but were they given a message of salvation? And what about the Israelites delivered from Egypt, who died in the wilderness?     

 

 

acts 17:30- :And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:'  God would be unrighteous to command all men to repent, if He knew full well some could not, and the thers would have no choice bUT to repent.

Have you ever told your children to "Be good" knowing they cannot? God cannot be accused of unrighteousness.  

 

 

Rom 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."  The gift came upon all men-justification was made for all, in nthe death and resurrection of Christ for all men, but not all would accept it, and thus, die in their sins.

That text is a challenge - we need to look at the context. 

  15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disOBedience many were made sinners, so by the OBedience of one shall many be made righteous.

  Certainly all are condemned because of sin. What is the "gift" ? A take-it-or-leave offer, or the righteousness of Jesus Christ? Paul writes: the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Does that gift come to "all men" including unrepentant sinners? No. it comes to: they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Note that Paul uses both "many" & "all" in his argument.  

 

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.". Jesus draws all, but some reject that drawing.

The context is that certain Greeks wanted to see Jesus. Jesus' reply is that by his death & resurrection he will draw all men - Gentiles (Greeks) as well as Jews.  

 

 

1tim 3:2,3: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

The Gospel is freely proclaimed; NONE are excluded by the Gospel call. No-one can say, "God doesn't mean me."   

 

1Tim 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."  I believe this verse is extremely telling, because it says He is the Saviour of ALL MEN, SPECIALLY those that believe. not ONLY those that beleve. Jesus is, potentially, Saviour of ALL men, because He died for all men, for the sin of the world, but because some will reject, salvation is not realized for them. So He is Savour of all, but that salvation will only be realized in those who receive, those that believe.

The context is God's provision for all men - food, marriage, etc - see also Acts 14 when Paul remonstrates with those who wanted to offer them sacrifices. And, of course, for all who repent & come to Jesus for salvation he is their Saviour & provider. [Pray for our brethren who are being driven from their homes, that God will provide.]  

 

 

John 1:9 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Jesus lights, or enlightens ALL men that come into the world, but some hate the light and refuse it, because they love darkness more.

True.

 

The Bible disagrees time and again with the idea of "world=only some of the world". And really, it would mean only a very tiny portion of the world-that Jesus, out of multiplied billions who would live upon the earth, only a few would be pre-ordined to life by God. God only loves a few, of His choosing, and only sent His Son to die for a few few chosen to life.

"World" always has a context.

 

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How does First Timothy 4:10 fit into this?

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Yes it does....."A world" does, "This world" does, "worlds" does too. but "the world"....there is only one "the world". "For God so love THE WORLD".

 

 

Like in  

 

Joh 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

 

or:

 

Lu 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
 
Not to mention  
 
Ac 11:28  And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

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How does First Timothy 4:10 fit into this?

Because it proclaims that jesus is the Saviour of all men, specially those who believe.  So Jesus died to pay for all sin of all men of all time, but only some receive that payment and salvation.

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Joh 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

To the Pharisees, israel pretty much was the entire world, or all they cared about.

 

or:

 

Lu 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
This is quoting Agustus; HE said that all the world was to be taxed. To Agustus, all he controlled was THE world
 
Not to mention  
 
Ac 11:28  And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
 
How do we know there wasn't a dearth in the whole world? Keep in mnd the world is specifically the people, the lost. So where there were people, there was a dearth.

 

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Some literary gymnastics there.

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Joh 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

To the Pharisees, israel pretty much was the entire world, or all they cared about.

 

 

 

Do we not say "Give my regards to everybody"?  When we don't mean everybody?

 

The French would say "Toute la monde", i.e. 'all the world.'  when we would say everybody. 

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If Jesus did not die for all men, you have no way to know Jesus died for you. 

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"He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:11-13

 

How is this to be understood?

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Do we not say "Give my regards to everybody"?  When we don't mean everybody?

 

The French would say "Toute la monde", i.e. 'all the world.'  when we would say everybody. 

Again we are dealing with the Bible recording the words of men, not the words of God. the Pharisees said the whole world had gone after Him-a true recording of an exaggerated statement made by sinners. Two of your three examples are just that-the bible recording that which was said by men. the third, being the words of God by Agabus, and a dearth throughout the whole world-again, there's no reason to say there wasn't a dearth through the entire world.

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For God so loved the world(encompassing the Mediterranean Sea) that He gave.........

For God so loved the world(conquered by the Romans) that He gave.........

For God so loved the world(conquered by the Romans, and He later loved the Native Americans after 1492) that He gave.........

For God so loved the world(conquered by the Romans, and later loved the Native Americans, the Australian Aborigines, Filipinos and Pacific Islanders) that He gave.........

 

Bible check for me...Does any of you guys have a KJB that reads that way?

Why make it hard? God Almighty said "for God so loved the world". He didn't do a slipshod, slacker, incomplete jOB friends, He loved it ALL. He didn't leave anyone out. He fills space and eternity and His love isn't partial either. You and I have partial, exclusive love...but He doesn't. If you love your enemies, then you're getting close to being like God. That's what His Holy Word says.

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That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:11-13

 

How is this to be understood?

It seems that the light of creation, to which was added the light of Jesus' incarnation, did not make Jesus known for salvation.

 

"His own" refers to his people Israel, who as a nation did not receive him.

 

Those who did receive him became children of God, because they were born of God. Human ancestry (descent from Abraham) did not & does nor save. God saves.

 

The text ends the argument as to whether faith or rebirth come first. Everyone with saving faith has been born again, & everyone born again has saving faith.

 

Whether the text is "calvinistic" or otherwise would be a fruitless argument. You MUST be born again, & that isn't something we are unaware of. To be born again, you must receive Christ as LORD & Saviour.

 

 

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I don't expect anyone reading the thread to accept the doctrines of grace, but I do expect respect from opponents. "Calvinists" like Invicta & myself serve our Saviour God in our churches, alongside non-calvinists - most of whom are unaware of the doctrine.

 

We are concerned that our God will bring sinners to repentance & salvation through the power of his Holy Spirit as his word is preached, & received, & hearts are opened.

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These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;

 

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

But God...

 

But God...

 

But God...

 

God bless,

calvary








 

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11  I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12  But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13  The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14  I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15  As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16  And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one 

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