John Calvin Had It All Wrong

339 posts in this topic

Posted

OFF TOPIC for a moment:

 

    I notice that, as we have removed those from the forum who clearly stand for false doctrines, LIKE the reformed position, here we are, all of us ultimately in agreement on the subject at hand, and still we are fighting over such things as, 'should we even care what a reformed person believes about his words' and 'does it matter how they define terminology?'.  Are are all of us against the doctrine, all agree it is wrong, but now, we aregue over how we deal with it. That's pretty sad, folks.

 

  I guess it boils down to, do we want to successfully discuss the subject with a Calvinist or not? If not, that's fine, it doesn't matter how they define terms, let them continue. If you want to discuss it with them, you'd best understand what they mean when they talk, or there's going to be a lot of confusion. 

 

Like many false groups, Mormons, JW's Catholics, etc, Calvinists change the meanings of biblical terminology to fit their doctrine. Ask a Mormon about gospel, and they will say they believe it. If we don't know that for them, the gospel is all about one's way of life, and not the death for our sins, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we might well go on our merry way thinking they are saved. A good example there is Glenn Beck. So with the Calvinist, if we want to discuss it, we'd best understand what they mean when they speak.

 

I guess my point it, after reading so much here, we all seem to agree-but we are arguning minute, non-issues about the subject at hand. Are we so desirous to argue that even in agreement we must argue?

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Posted

OFF TOPIC for a moment:

 

    I notice that, as we have removed those from the forum who clearly stand for false doctrines, LIKE the reformed position, here we are, all of us ultimately in agreement on the subject at hand, and still we are fighting over such things as, 'should we even care what a reformed person believes about his words' and 'does it matter how they define terminology?'.  Are are all of us against the doctrine, all agree it is wrong, but now, we aregue over how we deal with it. That's pretty sad, folks.

 

  I guess it boils down to, do we want to successfully discuss the subject with a Calvinist or not? If not, that's fine, it doesn't matter how they define terms, let them continue. If you want to discuss it with them, you'd best understand what they mean when they talk, or there's going to be a lot of confusion. 

 

Like many false groups, Mormons, JW's Catholics, etc, Calvinists change the meanings of biblical terminology to fit their doctrine. Ask a Mormon about gospel, and they will say they believe it. If we don't know that for them, the gospel is all about one's way of life, and not the death for our sins, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we might well go on our merry way thinking they are saved. A good example there is Glenn Beck. So with the Calvinist, if we want to discuss it, we'd best understand what they mean when they speak.

 

I guess my point it, after reading so much here, we all seem to agree-but we are arguning minute, non-issues about the subject at hand. Are we so desirous to argue that even in agreement we must argue?

Unless they have ''reformed'', you still have a couple.

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Posted

The discussion has been largely theoretical with many quotations from Calvinist sources.

 

What hasn't been considered is the practical application by Calvinists in the preaching of the Gospel. Somebody claimed Spurgeon wasn't a true Calvinist because of the message he preached. By the same standard, NONE of the calvinist preachers were "true" calvinists. That includes me - I preach Christ, & the need for repentance & faith in Christ. 

 

The point is that there are two aspects of this - God's call to sinners through the preached Gospel, & God's Holy Spirit working in the hearts of sinners, so the sinner hears, & believes and praises God his Saviour.

 

The prOBlem with this thread has been over analysis. We all have a Gospel to believe & proclaim.

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Posted

Covenanter,

Was it God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel, and be saved?

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Posted (edited)

The discussion has been largely theoretical with many quotations from Calvinist sources.

 

What hasn't been considered is the practical application by Calvinists in the preaching of the Gospel. Somebody claimed Spurgeon wasn't a true Calvinist because of the message he preached. By the same standard, NONE of the calvinist preachers were "true" calvinists. That includes me - I preach Christ, & the need for repentance & faith in Christ. 

 

The point is that there are two aspects of this - God's call to sinners through the preached Gospel, & God's Holy Spirit working in the hearts of sinners, so the sinner hears, & believes and praises God his Saviour.

 

The prOBlem with this thread has been over analysis. We all have a Gospel to believe & proclaim.

There is only one gospel, and that is Jesus died for OUR sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3-4)

 

Can you look an unbeliever in the eye and tell him that Jesus died for OUR sins as Paul did? 

Edited by Winman

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Posted

There is only one gospel, and that is Jesus died for OUR sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3-4)

 

Can you look an unbeliever in the eye and tell him that Jesus died for OUR sins as Paul did? 

Yes. I believe & preach the Scriptures.

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Posted

:tapping:hopefully when you preach the Gospel you don't twist IT like you do the news! oh wait, yes you do, by telling them Israel isn't really Israel in the NT but the church...

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Posted (edited)

Yes. I believe & preach the Scriptures.

 

Not what I asked. Can you look any person in the eye and tell them Jesus died for their sins personally as Paul did? 

 

Paul preached the gospel to unbelievers, and he told them;

 

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 
Can you tell any person that Jesus died for their sins, or do you believe in Limited Atonement and that Jesus only died for "some" people?
Edited by Winman

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Posted

What did Edwards, Whitefield and Spurgeon preach? Three "Calvinists" with well recorded track records that are easy to access and study.

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Posted

What did Edwards, Whitefield and Spurgeon preach? Three "Calvinists" with well recorded track records that are easy to access and study.

I wasn't there to hear them preach, so I cannot answer that question. 

 

Many Calvinists will say things like, "Jesus died for sinners", but this is only a half truth as it implies Jesus died for all sinners which 5 point Calvinists do not believe. If they were consistent with their view they could only say that Jesus died for "some" sinners, or that Jesus only died for "particular" sinners. 

 

A half truth is a whole lie. 

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Posted

Actually that was the point in bringing up those three. Their sermons, and in some cases most of their writings, are easily available for us to read. As well, testimonies and accounts of the results of their preaching are well recorded and easily available for us to investigate.

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Posted (edited)

Actually that was the point in bringing up those three. Their sermons, and in some cases most of their writings, are easily available for us to read. As well, testimonies and accounts of the results of their preaching are well recorded and easily available for us to investigate.

 

Well, it is your claim, and therefore your responsibility to present evidence for your claim. Perhaps you can show some examples of their preaching?

 

Anybody can make blank statements without evidence. 

Edited by Winman
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Posted

What claim did I make other than we can all look up their sermons?

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Posted

It is well known that Calvinists teach that Jesus didn't really die for all men. I have debated with several of them. Sure, you will find some people that are 4 or 3 point Calvinists and they may deny Limited Atonement. All that means is they are biblically wrong in 3 or 4 areas instead of 5.

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Posted

What claim did I make other than we can all look up their sermons?

 

If you are going to imply that these Calvinists taught universal atonement, you need to provide proof. It is not up to us to investigate your claims, it is your responsibility to provide evidence for your claims. 

 

Imagine a defense lawyer arguing that his client was across town at the time a crime was committed, and then telling the prosecution to look and see for themselves!

 

That's not how it works, you have to show evidence for your claims. If the defense lawyer could show a video that his defendent was at the airport across town when the crime was committed, he would prove his claim. 

 

I can show you that Spurgeon did not believe in universal atonement;

 

“Some say that all men are Christ’s by purchase. But, beloved, you and I do not believe in a sham redemption which does not redeem. We do not believe in a universal redemption which extends even to those who were in hell before the Savior died, and which includes the fallen angels as well as unrepentant men.”

 

http://www.ligonier.org/blog/charles-spurgeon-calvinism-definite-atonement/

 

Spurgeon was very inconsistent, one day he said Christ died for all men, the next day he would contradict himself. 

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Posted

I implied nothing. I said exactly what I meant. Those three men are well-known "Calvinists" that we have access to their sermons and results of their preaching that we can investigate.

 

If one reads the totality of Spurgeon's sermons and writings, he is totally consistent in his position.

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Posted (edited)

I implied nothing. I said exactly what I meant. Those three men are well-known "Calvinists" that we have access to their sermons and results of their preaching that we can investigate.

 

If one reads the totality of Spurgeon's sermons and writings, he is totally consistent in his position.

 

Baloney,

 

 

 

Next, Christ's Church is His by purchase. There are some who say that all men are Christ's by purchase. But, Beloved, you and I do not believe in a sham redemption which does not redeem! We do not believe in a universal redemption which extends even to those who were in Hell before the Savior died and which includes the fallen angels as well as unrepentant men. We believe in an effectual redemption and can never agree with those who would teach us that Christ's blood was shed in vain. The Good Shepherd laid down His life for His sheep. Christ loved His Church and gave Himself for it. He bought His own people with His blood. He purchased not the world's wide wilderness, but the "spot enclosed by Grace," the vineyard which His own right hand has planted!

 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/spurgeon/sermons48.xxvi.html

 

Spurgeon taught Limited or Particular Atonement. He did not believe Jesus died for all men. 

 

Spurgeon is very clear here, he does not believe Jesus redeemed "unrepentant men".

 

Now you show evidence that Spurgeon believed Jesus died for all men, as I have shown you from his own words he did not. 

Edited by Winman

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Posted

Covenanter,

Was it God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel, and be saved?

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Posted

I really don't understand why you continue to claim I've said things I've not. If you are just looking to argue, you'll have to look to others for that.

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Posted

 

Covenanter, on 26 Jul 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:snapback.png

 


Yes. I believe & preach the Scriptures.

 

 

Not what I asked. Can you look any person in the eye and tell them Jesus died for their sins personally as Paul did? 

 

Paul preached the gospel to unbelievers, and he told them;

 

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 
Can you tell any person that Jesus died for their sins, or do you believe in Limited Atonement and that Jesus only died for "some" people?

 

Your quote from Paul is from his letter to a church. Certainly I agree & preach Jesus death for our sins.

 

Can I tell a deliberate sinner the Jesus died for his sin, that God loves him personally? No! Jesus did NOT die to redeem the guilty sinners in hell. At the judgement, they cannot say, "Jesus died for my sins - how can you punish me as well for the same sins?" I believe in "particular redemption" - that Jesus died to save sinners, aka the elect.

 

Where do we find the Apostles preaching universal atonement? The Gospel invitation is always accompanied by warnings to the impenitent.

 

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

 

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

What do I preach to sinners? Several of my sermons are on the forum. e.g. My sermon on Jeremiah 23:6 - The LORD our Righteousness.

 

 

Can we continue in sin, trusting in a forgiving God? Certainly NOT!
Salvation is new life with the Holy Spirit living within us. Our baptism marks the end of a sinful, disOBedient life, and the beginning of a new life. The old life results in death and hell. The new life comes with a promise of heavenly glory.
Jesus by his cross suffered the wrath of his Father God against our sin. We cannot – we dare not, continue in sin. We are living a new life by faith in Jesus, the LORD our righteousness.
In Jesus, the LORD our Righteousness we have better promises – perfect forgiveness now; a living, loving relationship with our God who is love; a promise of glory in heaven when we die, and the ultimate perfection of resurrection to a new heaven and new earth.
Make sure YOU experience this wonderful salvation.
Amen.
Our closing hymn is a response to the Gospel call:
516 I hear thy welcome voice that calls me, Lord, to thee.
Hear the voice of Jesus calling in his Word, and come to him.

 

As John points out, Calvinistic preachers whose sermons are published preached to sinners, many of whom responded. Preaching universal love & redemption is another Gospel. Sinners are living under condemnation. What follows John 3:16 ? John 3:17-21

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Posted (edited)

Your quote from Paul is from his letter to a church. Certainly I agree & preach Jesus death for our sins.

 

Can I tell a deliberate sinner the Jesus died for his sin, that God loves him personally? No! Jesus did NOT die to redeem the guilty sinners in hell. At the judgement, they cannot say, "Jesus died for my sins - how can you punish me as well for the same sins?" I believe in "particular redemption" - that Jesus died to save sinners, aka the elect.

 

Where do we find the Apostles preaching universal atonement? The Gospel invitation is always accompanied by warnings to the impenitent.

 

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

 

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

What do I preach to sinners? Several of my sermons are on the forum. e.g. My sermon on Jeremiah 23:6 - The LORD our Righteousness.

 

 

As John points out, Calvinistic preachers whose sermons are published preached to sinners, many of whom responded. Preaching universal love & redemption is another Gospel. Sinners are living under condemnation. What follows John 3:16 ? John 3:17-21

 

You don't preach the gospel to believers, you preach the gospel to unbelievers so they might believe. 

 

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

What would be the purpose of preaching the gospel to someone who already believes? It would accomplish nothing. 

 

Paul told unbelievers that Jesus died for "our" sins so they MIGHT believe. 

 

But you can't do that. 

 

You are correct, it is not the same gospel. 

Edited by Winman

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Posted

Universal redemption is not what is at issue here.
Jesus dying for all men is only universal redemption in Calvin's twisted theology.

I certainly don't believe in universal redemption, but I believe that Jesus died For the whole world.
That doesn't mean the whole world is saved, but that the whole really does have the opportunity to be saved.

The salvation you preach is based on the election of God not on the blood of Christ. It is not a free gift offered to all men, but an imposition upon some men only.

You have answered the question asked in your twisted way, but the translation into simple language is "No".
You can not in your theology preach to all men that they can be saved.

Thanks for making your position clear finally, although I doubt that you meant to reveal as much as you have.

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Posted

Covenanter,

Was it God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel, and be saved?

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Posted

"It would not be possible for me too earnestly to press upon
you the importance of reading the expositions of that prince among men,
JOHN CALVIN!"
-- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine
preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else
be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of
no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's
gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder
through England again."-- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

"... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."
-- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

(speaking of "TULIP"), "We look upon them as being five
great lamps which help to irradiate the cross, or rather five bright
emanations springing from the glorious covenant of our Triune God, and
illustrating the great doctrine of Jesus crucified. Against all comers,
especially against all lovers of Arminianism, we defend and maintain pure
gospel truth." -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

" I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.   -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

"Once again, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood. That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Saviour died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain."  -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

But he also said...

"Our conformity to Christ is the sacred OBject of predestination."  -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

 

I don't care if Spurgeon was called "the prince of preachers", or how many thousand 'converts' he had; Billy Graham has a multitude of 'converts' and followers too, but he's still a heretic. When I got saved, Spurgeon was nowhere near but Jesus was in the house. I distinctly heard the "voice" of Psalm 29, via the scripture of Psalm 23. and WILLINGLY I opened up my everlasting door and the King of Glory came in. The Bible tells us not to follow, or put our trust in men. I "need not that any man teach" me, even Spurgeon.

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Posted

Good example of Spurgeon's beliefs in this area. Yet he is quoted often in nearly all IFB churches and publications, held up as an example, and often IFB folks will try to claim Spurgeon really wasn't in the Calvinist camp.

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