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John Calvin Had It All Wrong


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#261 DaveW

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 03:54 AM

The discussion was about the false doctrines, not the bits you might get right.
Even the Catholics get some doctrines right.

If you want a competition then you have come to the wrong place.

Especially right now as my son just came back from a definitely non-calvinist trip where far more than one was saved.

That in itself doesn't prove a doctrine right or wrong.

If you actually wanted people to rejoice over it, you would have put it in the soul winning section........

By putting it here, you are using it as propaganda. ......

But, praise God if he did get saved. If he did it was because of the preaching of the Gospel, not the preaching of Calvinism.

#262 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 10:28 AM

I had wanted to say this earlier but I held my tongue but now you asked for an anti-calvinist to comment and here goes.

 

Number or activity does not prove the truth of any system of Theology.  Gain is not th evidence of godliness as some would want us to think.  Large ministries prove nothing. 

 

2Cor 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.   And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.   Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

Probably not what you wanted to hear and at the same time it is what you were expecting to hear.


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 08 August 2014 - 10:30 AM.


#263 mkrishna

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 12:41 PM

Also, the number of popular teachers in a certain theology does not make it true. There are a number of popular preachers who hold to Calvinism, and people basically get the theology by listening to them or reading their books, not from the Bible. We need to throw out our creeds and have the Bible as the ONLY authority.



#264 Covenanter

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 01:12 PM

I wasn't being contentious - just sharing. We may disagree on various points of doctrine, but we hold to Jesus Christ as Lord & Saviour.



#265 heartstrings

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 01:31 PM

Benny Hinn uses a King James Bible, has the plan of salvation outlned on his website, and claims Jesus Christ is Savior, and preaches on ''the blood''.

 

My Jesus created all things, tasted death for every man, is willing that all should come to repentence, is not willing that any should perish, and he did not create a single person to burn in Hell for the ''glory'' of it..



#266 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:04 PM

Also, the number of popular teachers in a certain theology does not make it true. There are a number of popular preachers who hold to Calvinism, and people basically get the theology by listening to them or reading their books, not from the Bible. We need to throw out our creeds and have the Bible as the ONLY authority.

fully agreed.



#267 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:07 PM

Benny Hinn uses a King James Bible, has the plan of salvation outlned on his website, and claims Jesus Christ is Savior, and preaches on ''the blood''.

 

My Jesus created all things, tasted death for every man, is willing that all should come to repentence, is not willing that any should perish, and he did not create a single person to burn in Hell for the ''glory'' of it..

And what is your point exactly?



#268 heartstrings

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:14 PM

A response to Covenanter's last post.



#269 John81

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:19 PM

A full understanding of Scripture is not required for one to be saved. Thanks be to God for that! We must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, come in the flesh, died and resurrected to pay for our sins. With our heart we believe, with our mouth we confess.

 

God made salvation very easy.

 

Our view of various other matters, which most often are come to after salvation, don't necessarily prove or disprove one being saved or lost.



#270 heartstrings

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:31 PM

No, but it's possible to believe in another "Jesus" as in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

 

Benny Hinn has the wrong Jesus and so do the teachers of a Jesus who didn't die for everyone. Sorry; wrong Jesus.



#271 John81

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:58 PM

There is a vast difference between believing the Gospel of Christ and being saved, and having differing views of what Scripture means.

 

I can believe you are a good man who loves your family while at the same time come to think you are a goat kicker and whether or not I'm right about the goat kicking doesn't change the fact I know the you who is a good man who loves your family.

 

The majority of folks I know who were born again had little understanding of the Bible and little knowledge of Jesus beyond the Gospel that was presented to them. It was after salvation that they read the Word, studied the Word, attended church and from there formed their doctrinal views.

 

There is no doubt that the night I was saved if someone had come up to me after I was born again and asked me about a point of Calvinism or Arminianism, or some other point on this spectrum, I wouldn't have had a clue what they were talking about or known who was right or wrong.

 

While what little I know of Benny Hinn I'm pretty sure I'm in disagreement with, but as to whether he's saved or not, I don't know near enough to even hazard a guess.

 

One thing I do know, there are many folks I have no doubt they are saved even though they hold to differing, sometimes very differing views, on various aspects of Scripture. One can speculate and debate how born again Christians can come to different views on any number of issues but that doesn't change the fact saved people can hold different understandings of things yet they are still saved. All of this is part of living in a fallen world where none of us will know perfection or be in perfect accord.



#272 DaveW

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 10:17 PM

Ah yes but John we are not talking about individuals, but about doctrines.

What you say may be right about an individual, but a doctrine MUST BE CORRECT.

If a teaching is wrong, whether or not the one teaching it is saved, that teaching is wrong.

#273 Miss Daisy

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 12:08 AM

Covenantor, how do you know the kid is one of God's "elect", according to Calvinism, he wouldn't know until he died whether he was saved from hell or not. Calvinism is of man, not God.



#274 Covenanter

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 02:41 AM

Covenantor, how do you know the kid is one of God's "elect", according to Calvinism, he wouldn't know until he died whether he was saved from hell or not. Calvinism is of man, not God.

He believes & confesses Jesus as Lord & Saviour.

 

Your misunderstanding of "calvinism" has NOTHING to do with the Gospel of salvation & Christian living.



#275 DaveW

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 03:09 AM

How about you actually answer the question.
How DOES one know if they are elect?

After all, that is far closer to the actual theme of this thread than your propaganda.

#276 Invicta

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 04:26 AM

That is easy.  If one is truly saved, you are one of the elect.



#277 Covenanter

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 05:09 AM

How about you actually answer the question.
How DOES one know if they are elect?

After all, that is far closer to the actual theme of this thread than your propaganda.

 

Paul answers your question:

1 Thes. 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

4 Knowing , brethren beloved , your election of God.

5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad ; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come .

John adds:

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

confirming the words of Jesus:

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another .

We look for the fruit of the Spirit:

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.



#278 John81

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 06:39 AM

Dave,

 

I agree with your point about the importance of doctrine. I've not argued doctrine isn't important, only that if one responds to the Gospel of salvation they are saved regardless if they understand other biblical doctrines.

 

Sometimes it's argued that if one is a Calvinist, Armenian, Lutheran or Methodist that means they aren't saved. That's a false argument.



#279 Covenanter

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:35 AM

Ah yes but John we are not talking about individuals, but about doctrines.

What you say may be right about an individual, but a doctrine MUST BE CORRECT.

If a teaching is wrong, whether or not the one teaching it is saved, that teaching is wrong.

But, Dave, are YOU the inspired arbiter of sound doctrine? Am I? I consider much of your teaching is in error, & readily rejected by Scripture, but I hesitate to condemn you for your errors. We could be friends - brothers in Christ - but I would not invite you to teach. We are all learning, both from Scripture & each other, & only in glory will we know all truth.

 

I seek to quote Scripture that DIRECTLY supports what I believe & teach, whereas your teaching tends to be INFERRED from Scripture & interpreted in accord with your beliefs.



#280 DaveW

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:10 AM

And yet still the question goes unanswered.

I can tell you a personal instance where a young man who was saved became influenced by a Calvinist. He became convinced Calvinism was correct, but then also became worried he was not one of the elect. He was given no reasonable answer by his calvinist friend.
This fear so caught him that he eventually convinced himself that if he didn't "just know he was one of the elect" that he must not be.
And he stopped coming to church, moved into a worldly lifestyle, and was still in that situation the last time I heard about him.
I can assure you that his downfall was due to the influence of Calvinism and because he could not be told how to know he was elect.

So how about you actually answer the question.......

And saying he was obviously not one of the elect won't help him with his fear now....

You misquote scripture to fit with your predetermined system of false belief.
I preach simply what the Bible actually says.
Your position is shown by the way you impose your beliefs on this matter, on prophesy, and on anything to do with Israel.
Wherever I have opposed you I have done so with the simple understanding of Scripture.
You don't directly answer questions - just as you did here, you put a pseudo answer and then deflect to something else.




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