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John Calvin Had It All Wrong


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#21 Invicta

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:52 PM

I'm thankful I was saved and matured (not that I'm fully matured, only that I matured in the Lord prior to) before I ever heard of Calvinism or Armenianism or the "I'm not either one" folks.

 

 

So was I.  When I heard somebody preach on How God chose Jacob over Esau and how Paul used it to show how election works in Christians, I could feel my blood boil, and thought "How dare he?"  However studying scripture on the subject, I realised I was wrong.


Edited by Invicta, 07 July 2014 - 12:54 PM.


#22 heartstrings

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:34 PM

I was upset for a different reason:  How dare a MAN who calls himself a preacher lie on my God like that.



#23 Covenanter

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:01 PM

Were Abraham & his descendants chosen by God?

 

Deut. 7:For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

 

Neh. 9:Thou art the Lord the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

 

But is even that choosing selective?

 

1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

 

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

 

 



#24 "I am chief"

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:17 PM

I've never had a problem with the word "elect" according to Jesus Christ's own words.

 

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

From our creation He gave us free will, all of us, not part of us. If we receive Him we are in the "elect."



#25 heartstrings

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:36 PM

''Election'' has to do with purpose or service; Angels, Israel, and even the Lord Jesus are ''elect''.



#26 Invicta

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:31 PM

''Election'' has to do with purpose or service; Angels, Israel, and even the Lord Jesus are ''elect''.

 

And the church.



#27 DaveW

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:39 PM

Chosen for what purpose though - the important point that Calvin and his followers ignore.......

No one denies that God makes choices, but the Bible clearly says that salvation is a gift offered to all men, not just a few.

#28 Invicta

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:53 PM

Chosen for what purpose though - the important point that Calvin and his followers ignore.......

No one denies that God makes choices, but the Bible clearly says that salvation is a gift offered to all men, not just a few.

 

I take your point Dave, but it also says no one can come to Jesus unless the father calls him.  Christ also quotes Isaiah to say that he spoke in parables so that not all would believe and be saved.



#29 DaveW

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:04 PM

I take your point Dave, but it also says no one can come to Jesus unless the father calls him. Christ also quotes Isaiah to say that he spoke in parables so that not all would believe and be saved.


Not the way Calvin states it.
Salvation is available to all men. God did not and does not choose whom He will save in Calvin's way.
There is no such thing as Calvin's total depravity, nor Calvin's unconditional election, nor Calvin's limited atonement, nor Calvin's irresistible 'grace', nor Calvin's perseverance of the saints.

Much of it is close but not close enough.

Calvinism, or 'the doctrines of grace' as those who don't want the association put it, are a false system teaching a false Gospel.

Yes, Calvin got it wrong, and his teaching leads many to hell.

#30 heartstrings

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:37 PM

And the church.

That's right. Jesus, angels, Israel, and the Church all have a job, and purpose. Jesus came to Earth, performed miracles, "went about doing good", shed His blood on the cross and rose from the dead. Part of His "work", his "job" was finished on Calvary. Now He makes "intercession for the saints" and will one day do something else when he comes in the clouds to get us, then fights with the sword of His mouth and stands upon the Mount of Olives, and reigns a thousand years....see what I'm saying?  Likewise the angels, Israel and the Church have a purpose/function/job as well. Point being; Jesus is "elect" but that doesn't mean God "chose" him in the sense that he "picked" him...He has always existed and has always been God.


Edited by heartstrings, 08 July 2014 - 07:48 PM.


#31 John81

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:47 PM

Dave,

 

I don't want to get into this whole thing so I just have one narrow question to ask you.

 

What do you mean by "his teaching leads many to hell"?

 

Thank you.



#32 DaveW

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:57 PM

Dave,

I don't want to get into this whole thing so I just have one narrow question to ask you.

What do you mean by "his teaching leads many to hell"?

Thank you.


See Galatians 1:8,9

#33 John81

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 08:01 PM

I'm sorry Dave, unless you have more to go with that I don't understand.



#34 DaveW

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 08:21 PM

What is the Gospel?

1Co 15:1-4

(1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

(2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

(3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

(4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

What does the Gospel do?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

How is salvation attained?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

 

What saves under Calvin's system?

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

 

No mention of the blood of Christ, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

 

And you won't find these things mentioned in most outlines of the five points of Calvin.

They will often mention the death of Christ under “Limited atonement”, but only the fact that it isn't sufficient for all – some will say effective for all, but they twist that too.

 

Now John, I don't know about you, but my salvation is based on the free gift of salvation through the shed blood of Christ, and was attained by me by grace through faith.

 

Any other way of salvation is another Gospel, which is not another.

 

Therefore to do as the Calvinist does and base salvation, not on the blood of Christ, but upon the choice of God, is another Gospel which is not another.

 

I believe that many people amongst Calvinistic churches are fooled by the doublespeak of the Calvinist teachers, and have actually believed the surface preaching without understanding the redefinition of words that they use.

But anyone who actually understands and follows Calvin's teachings, is basing their salvation on something other than the blood of Christ.

And that means that they are not saved.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

Calvinists are like many other cults – they redefine words, jump through linguistic hoops, and make leaps of logic all so that they can re-understand what the Bible says.

 

But if you base your salvation on anything other than the blood of Christ, you are not saved.

And the Calvinist bases his salvation on the choice of God not the blood of Christ.



#35 John81

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 08:36 PM

I've never heard anyone we might call Calvinists (other than those few hyper's I've encountered online) that present any Gospel other than the one we read of in Scripture.

 

Even if we take into account possible false professions, the numbers who were said to have been born again in Christ through the preaching of men such as Spurgeon, Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards are in the tens of thousands; and that's not even counting those who later professed Christ from reading their sermons and such. Given the historical record of changed lives it seems exceedingly unlikely these folks believed a false gospel and went to hell.

 

Those I know of who would fall under the "Calvinist" umbrella have testimonies of salvation the same as yours and mine. Their lives bear evidence of salvation. When they go soul winning they use the same sort of tracts, point to the same verses of Scripture as we (non-Calvinistic Baptists) do.



#36 DaveW

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 08:44 PM

You asked, I gave an answer, feel free to ignore it.

But remember that Calvin would have killed Spurgeon as a heretic for his teaching of free will.

#37 John81

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 08:51 PM

Thank you Dave. I appreciate your taking the time to answer my question. I'm not going to ignore what you said, I simply haven't seen evidence of Spurgeon, Edwards, Whitefield or the Calvinists I know of ever presenting a false gospel.

 

Spurgeon pointed out that what we might call hyper-Calvinists were an aboration and not faithful to Scripture. That of course would lead back to the whole "what does or doesn't election and predestination mean in Scripture".

 

So, sticking to the focused point, I don't see how "Calvinism" is leading folks to hell outside of those who take the hyper approach which is somewhat of another side of the coin where some folks practice "quick prayerism".

 

Again, I do appreciate your response. I now know what you meant, even if I'm not currently seeing it. Thank you.



#38 DaveW

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 09:08 PM

You can't see that the system of Calvinism teaches another Gospel?
Stop confusing the system, which teaches a false Gospel, with men who used the name.
As I mentioned, Spurgeon taught free will far more than he taught the 5 points.
Put his faithfulness and "success" down to that.
Calvin would have condemned his preaching.
And this fur fee of "hyper-calvinism" keeps coming up.
If you look at what Calvin taught, then what men today call hyper-calvinism is simply not - it is Calvinism.
But many people don't like things like "double predestination" so they step back from it in spite of it being EXACTLY what Calvin taught.

Calvinism is a pernicious doctrine that leads people to hell, for it teaches salvation through God's choice, not the blood of Christ.

#39 No Nicolaitans

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 09:56 PM

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.



#40 heartstrings

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 12:34 AM

Matthew 5

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

God ain't no hippocrite and he doesn't expect us to do better than He does Himself: not gonna happen.


Edited by heartstrings, 09 July 2014 - 12:39 AM.





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