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John Calvin Had It All Wrong


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#81 Calvary

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:26 PM

Every explanation I've ever read of Calvinism specifically addresses this objection and says that what happens is that a man's inclinations are changed so that he freely chooses Christ and has no desire to do otherwise, not that his free will is removed.

 

Now it could be argued that this is a distinction without a difference since if man's decision-making is the result of something, such as his desires and inclinations, then that is not free will. But for me, this begs the question, if that isn't free will, then what is? To qualify as 'free will', does the decision have to have no basis at all? And then wouldn't that make it random?

 

The Heb 11:25-27 verse describes Moses making a decision based on an inclination he has: "Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt..."

 

Why would Moses hold the reproach of Christ in higher regard than the treasues in Egypt while the next man wouldn't? I don't think we're given an answer to that, whereas Calvinists think we are. However, showing examples of people making decisions doesn't refute Calvinism, in m.o, since the system doesn't deny that people make them.

 

Sorry "Fed", but I´m not following you too well.

 

I think you sort of say 2 things that are opposing each other.

 

Now it could be argued that this is a distinction without a difference since if man's decision-making is the result of something, such as his desires and inclinations, then that is not free will. But for me, this begs the question, if that isn't free will, then what is? To qualify as 'free will', does the decision have to have no basis at all? And then wouldn't that make it random?

 

?? Sorry but you´re not making sense. Maybe if you try again. What I am hearing you say is that free will is absed upon a man´s "inclinaitons", therefore it´s npot free will, then you say it´s really random, therefore there is no basis of free will.... ???????? Ya lost me bro.

 

Then you say that we really don´t know what Moses´inclinations were so we can´t say why my post refutes calvinism.

 

I think I was merely demostrating that men, the example is Moses, have a free will to chose what they deem fit, be it for good, or be it for bad. Moses chose his course, and he chose to follw God and it had nothing whatsoever to do with being over powered by the Holy Spirit thereby negating man´s choice in slavation. Which is exactly the foolish position of calvinism.

 

I stand by my post as being fairly simple to get.

 

God bless,

calvary



#82 Covenanter

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:35 AM

Does every example in Scripture of a person making an apparently free decision mean that everyone has complete free will to accept or reject the Gospel of salvation through Christ alone?

 

Perhaps Moses, seeing the Israelites in slavery, and knowing his providential protection as a baby, expected that he would be the means of deliverance. Perhaps he hoped to inspire a revolt, when he killed the Egyptian? Clearly it wasn't God's chosen time, & Moses abandoned his strategy, & fled into the wilderness.

 

God's chosen time came 40 years later, when He took the initiative at the burning bush, and God convinced an UNWILLING Moses to return to Egypt & defy Pharoah. Exo. 4:10-16 LORD, here am I, send Aaron. Moses needed a lot of persuading to do God's will.



#83 Alimantado

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:29 AM

I stand by my post as being fairly simple to get.

 

It was, Calvary. If I get time this week I'll try to explain my points better. Who's "Fed", btw? I'm Carl.



#84 DaveW

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:42 AM

Does every example in Scripture of a person making an apparently free decision mean that everyone has complete free will to accept or reject the Gospel of salvation through Christ alone?

Perhaps Moses, seeing the Israelites in slavery, and knowing his providential protection as a baby, expected that he would be the means of deliverance. Perhaps he hoped to inspire a revolt, when he killed the Egyptian? Clearly it wasn't God's chosen time, & Moses abandoned his strategy, & fled into the wilderness.

God's chosen time came 40 years later, when He took the initiative at the burning bush, and God convinced an UNWILLING Moses to return to Egypt & defy Pharoah. Exo. 4:10-16 LORD, here am I, send Aaron. Moses needed a lot of persuading to do God's will.


Not concerning the salvation of Moses.....
God persuaded Moses, not forced.

#85 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:15 AM

Just to make it clear, only those who have believed on Christ by Grace through Faith are predestinated and that according to the context of the KJV and no added interpretations of any particular group.

 

The ones predestinated in Ephesians 1:5 and 11 are those whom God Chose before the foundation of the world that knew would be in Christ by Grace through faith, hence the "in him" of verse 4.  the chosen were in him and you get put into him by the spirit when you through faith believe on him for salvation.  The father merely looked ahead to see who would accept the finished work of Christ on the cross for salvation and chose them to be predestinated.

 

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

 

And the same can be said about Romans 8:28 ,29.  the context is the Saints and you only become a saint if you have believed on Christ finished work of the Cross for your salvation. And the context goes all the way back to verse 1 where again was see it is those in Christ that are spoken of, not lost men but saved.

 

Rom 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
 17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
 26 ¶  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

The verses of predestinate and predestinated are Only for those who have believed on Christ finished work first then they become the predestinate and predestinated as part of their salvation.  the word Adoption is also in both sets of Verses from Ephesians and Romans and it only happens after a person has by grace through faith believed on Christ.

 

Only those in Christ are chosen to be predestinate and become predestinated.  Any other interpretation is not true to the word of God.  Predestinate and predestinated are works that happen to a believer once they are saved and not before.


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 16 July 2014 - 04:13 PM.


#86 heartstrings

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:16 AM

 

Acts 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

 

Felix did resist the Holy Spirit - and a convenient season never came. There are many guilty sinners out there who have heard & understood - & rejected the Gospel. And no, they cannot blame the Holy Spirit for not quickening them. They have consciously & deliberately rejected Christ.  

 

John 16:Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

Covenanter,

Above, you admit that Felix resisted the Holy Spirit. Being that the Holy Spirit is a person, namely God, then do you also admit that it was God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel and be saved?



#87 Calvary

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:32 AM

It was, Calvary. If I get time this week I'll try to explain my points better. Who's "Fed", btw? I'm Carl.

 

 

Thanks, look forward to it. Your screen name is almost the spanish word for "fed". I thought you might´ve known that - :-)



#88 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 04:18 PM

In the OT from Exodus to Malachi Israel rejected God the Father, in the Gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John Israel rejected God the Son, Jesus Christ, In Acts 1 to Acts 7 Israel rejected God the Holy Ghost.  Rejection is a willful process of heart and mind this willful process is known as free will.  This rejection comes from resistance of their hearts and minds to the word of God in the OT, to the person of the Son of God in gospels and resistance to the work of God by way of the holy Ghost in the first seven chapters of the book of Acts.


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 16 July 2014 - 04:24 PM.


#89 Covenanter

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 04:36 PM

 

Felix did resist the Holy Spirit - and a convenient season never came. There are many guilty sinners out there who have heard & understood - & rejected the Gospel. And no, they cannot blame the Holy Spirit for not quickening them. They have consciously & deliberately rejected Christ.

 

 

Covenanter,

Above, you admit that Felix resisted the Holy Spirit. Being that the Holy Spirit is a person, namely God, then do you also admit that it was God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel and be saved?

 

Why do you use "admit" as if I were owning up to a crime ? Why not use "agree" ? Could Felix have used the free-will of his corrupt nature - dead in trespasses & sins to repent & believe? God cannot be accused of rejecting repentant sinners, nor can he be accused of condemning ignorant sinners who have never heard the Gospel e.g. the countless Gentiles before Pentecost.

 

Consider this:

John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

 

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

The rejection & crucifixion of Jesus was according to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. Yet God CANNOT be accused of guilt in the rejection & death of his Son. Were they simply working to God's plan & therefore innocent? Of course not. They used their own sinful free will to try to shut out the Light of the world because light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 

Is God insincere is his declared love & call to guilty sinners? Of course not.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

There are truths that must be held in tension - in this thread, God's sovereign will - determinate counsel and foreknowledge - versus man's evil free will & action.

 

There are many questions, & not all are explicitly answered in Scripture. Calvin used human logic guided by Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit in seeking to answer them, and obviously didn't & couldn't get everything right. He was a man. We also seek to use human logic guided by Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit in seeking to answer them.

 



#90 heartstrings

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 05:14 PM

Sir, I have no idea what you just said. Sorry I used the word ''admit''. My apologies. But would you please answer my question? 

 

 

 was it God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel and be saved?

 

Yes, or no?



#91 Invicta

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 06:48 PM

Earlier in this thread, somebody said that Calvinists lead many to Hell.  That is a very foolish statement.  Calvinists have probably led far more people to Christ than you Arminians.

 

Consider bibles.

 

The 1996 revision of the French Ostervald Bible has the following in the preface. (my translation.)  "Throughout the centuries, since 1535 (Date of the Olivetan Bible) the francophones posses a faithful bible". .............."It is issue of the  Texte Reçu, The Received Text. The Olivetan Bible was the bible of the Vaudois (Waldensians) evangelical Christians of the alps, the reformers Calvin, Farel and Théodore de Beze.  It has born fruit in numerous conversions.and the spirit of sacrifice and revival.  .......Up to the beginning of the 20th century it has been perpetuated by revisions  ot the Ostervald.  During all this time, nothing was taken from the bible.

 

The 1996 was revised by Pastor Clare Baughman, A US baptist,.

 

So let us look at bibles translated by Calvinists (to use your words). These have all resulted in vast numbers of conversions.

 

Wickliff.

Wm Tyndale, English

KJV,  English

Luther.  German

Olivetan.  French.  (Jean Calvin wrote the preface for that.)

 

These are just some of the translations by Calvinists. In fact if it wasn't for them you probably would never have heard the gospel.

 

It has been estimated that at one time 45-48% of the population in France was Huguenot.  These were almost wiped out by persecution and exile.  Preachers and pastors were sentenced to be broken on the wheel and then hung.  Men attending a service wold be sentenced to the galleys for life, women to imprisonment in the Tower of Constance in a town called Aigres Mortes.  The pastors mainly counseled their flock not to make armed resistance.  However when the people were left without godly pastors to guide them in the late 1600s, a the christians became radical and charismatics.  The then had many prophets, and became known as Camisards.  Following a distinct prophecy they took up arms against the king and were wiped out apart from a few who escaped to England and other countries.  One of the leaders who came here was Elias Marion. Here they were known as French Prophets. In his journal, Charles Wesley mentions sharing a hotel room with one of them (No such thing as privacy in those days) He said the man gobbled like a turkey cock all night, 

 

But I have digressed, where did I get to?  Oh yes, the Huguenots were also called Calvinists   The Camisards were not.

 

The Waldensians were Calvinist.



#92 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:28 PM

Invicta,

 

 

 Calvinists have probably led far more people to Christ than you Arminians

 

I am wondering why you called someone an Arminian?  I am not sure who you were addressing in the post where I quoted you so I was wondering.

 

I was called a Calvinist because I believe in Eternal Salvation but I am not Calvinist at all. 

 

It is a labeling game some Christians get all into, it seems they just like to call people such, when it may be they are not.

 

I had a man who argued with me again and again about how there was not such thing as Eternal Salvation in the Bible.  So I asked him if I could show him that there is Eternal Salvation in the Bible would he believe it. 

 

I pulled out my KJV and read to him Heb 5:8, 9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

After I read this verse to him he just became quiet and then exclaimed he had to go and left.  He either never saw this verse before or is it in any Bible he read.  He never argued with me again about eternal Salvation after that.

 

If you would I ask you would read the following link on Calvinism "Is Calvinism Sound Doctrine?"



#93 DaveW

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:28 PM

Ok so now you can twist history - oh wait we already know you do that.......

Luther was a Calvinist..... love it. they didn't really agree with each other, and tried to get rid of each other - at least until the anabaptists got in the way - they they agreed to get rid of them.

And I don't know of a single person here who claims to be an Arminian. More twisting....

Talk about foolish statements...... "Calvinists have probably led far more people to Christ than you Arminians."

What utter trash - especially when you then go on to talk about Bible translations, which have nothing to do with how many people are saved, nor whether a person believes in calvinism or not.
There is no possible way anyone can make a claim such as you just have - you have no way of finding the statistics of such a claim.

However, to claim that a particular form of doctrine leads people to hell is entirely provable - if it is not the Gospel of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ, then the people teaching such are leading people to Hell.

You don't even know what an arminian is if you claim that the people here are arminian.
Just standard Calvinist false claims again. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically an arminian.

Edited by DaveW, 17 July 2014 - 05:16 AM.


#94 whisperingsage

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:45 PM

Before John Calvin came along, I wonder where Calvinists went to church. Probably almost no Calvinists existed before then.

 Calvin was Catholic before he bacome supposedly a Protestant- but with research from David Cloud, it appears he was still pretty Catholic. We know he beat two boys for putting a bean in a cake. We know he persecuted Anabaptists.



#95 whisperingsage

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:53 PM

After having read about the 5 point Calvinist in the Sword of the Lord, and what TULIP meant, sometime later, we happened to have a 5 point Calvinist come to our church for awhile. He was very talented with the violin, classicly. We were impressed with that. And he was a sweet man, BUT he wanted to argue that Adam was the last man that had free will. We could not soften his heart on that. Sometime later, he drove himself nuts thinking he was NOT one of the predestined. Literally, he went into a mental intitution, his wife divorced him, he had a pall of depression for a few years. He moved to another state, but would come through and visit every once in awhile. He would come through a fat, unhealthy specimen, compared to before, when he dressed sharp and acted charming, and had happiness. But finally one of these times, he looked a little better and someone from another church had got through with the grace doctrine, and he heard it and he rededicated himself to God. So finally it appeared our friend had made peace with himself and God. But it took a long time and a lot of heartache over the TULIP doctrine.



#96 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:21 AM

 Calvin was Catholic before he bacome supposedly a Protestant- but with research from David Cloud, it appears he was still pretty Catholic. We know he beat two boys for putting a bean in a cake. We know he persecuted Anabaptists.

ALL the reformation churches came from the RC background.  All of them fly the supposed Christian Flag flown in some Baptist churches.  But that flag was the reformation banner not a baptist banner.  Baptist did not come from the reformation they came from around it.  And If I am not mistaken Baptist are not from the direct line of Anabaptist, many associate it because of the word baptist in the name.  American Baptist are a unique fellowship of believers.  See Elmer Towns "Theology Today" he gives a little insight on it.

 

John Calvin didn't just persecute the Anabaptist he persecuted Wesleyans, the Lutherans, the Presbytery church, the Episcopals, RC and any groups that he could not influence toward his ideas for the church.  Later some of these groups created opposition to him while others conformed to him but not to the Bible.


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 17 July 2014 - 10:25 AM.


#97 heartstrings

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:58 AM

Ok so now you can twist history - oh wait we already know you do that.......

Luther was a Calvinist..... love it. they didn't really agree with each other, and tried to get rid of each other - at least until the anabaptists got in the way - they they agreed to get rid of them.

And I don't know of a single person here who claims to be an Arminian. More twisting....

Talk about foolish statements...... "Calvinists have probably led far more people to Christ than you Arminians."

What utter trash - especially when you then go on to talk about Bible translations, which have nothing to do with how many people are saved, nor whether a person believes in calvinism or not.
There is no possible way anyone can make a claim such as you just have - you have no way of finding the statistics of such a claim.

However, to claim that a particular form of doctrine leads people to hell is entirely provable - if it is not the Gospel of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ, then the people teaching such are leading people to Hell.

You don't even know what an arminian is if you claim that the people here are arminian.
Just standard Calvinist false claims again. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically an arminian.

I concur. 

Arminians believe one can be saved and later lost. That is just as false as ''reformed doctrine'' is.



#98 Invicta

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 11:59 AM

Ok so now you can twist history - oh wait we already know you do that.......

Luther was a Calvinist..... love it. they didn't really agree with each other, and tried to get rid of each other - at least until the anabaptists got in the way - they they agreed to get rid of them.

And I don't know of a single person here who claims to be an Arminian. More twisting....

Talk about foolish statements...... "Calvinists have probably led far more people to Christ than you Arminians."

What utter trash - especially when you then go on to talk about Bible translations, which have nothing to do with how many people are saved, nor whether a person believes in calvinism or not.
There is no possible way anyone can make a claim such as you just have - you have no way of finding the statistics of such a claim.

However, to claim that a particular form of doctrine leads people to hell is entirely provable - if it is not the Gospel of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ, then the people teaching such are leading people to Hell.

You don't even know what an arminian is if you claim that the people here are arminian.
Just standard Calvinist false claims again. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically an arminian.

 

Have you ever read Luther's Bondage of the Will?  He said Adam was given free will and exercised it for his children, us in other word  He used his freewill to sin and bore his son "in his own image" his sinful image.  I used Luther as one who believed in predestination and if you actually read my post, you will see that I said they were Calvinists "!in your words."  That is, they believed in predestination.  To say that predestination  did not mean predestination to life, but some other predestination is foolish  Called, chosen, predestinated.  If that were the only reference in scripture I would be inclined to agree with you, but there are many other places tat confirm this, remember, Jesus said "You didn't choose me, I chose you." and 

 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 
 
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 
65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
 

As you can see, the teaching of Jesus is no more popular today than it was them.

 

DasveW, you completely miss the point by trying to vilify me.  (I am glad that n one will have that attitude when we get to glory)   My point was, they all believed in  predestination.  Incidentally, they all (AS far as I know) taught that the Pope is the Man of Sin, the Antichrist.

 

 

A catholic is hardly likely to teach that. 

 

I used the word "Calvinist" as you use it on anyone who believes in predestination.  

 

 Calvin was Catholic before he bacome supposedly a Protestant- but with research from David Cloud, it appears he was still pretty Catholic. We know he beat two boys for putting a bean in a cake. We know he persecuted Anabaptists.

 

I am an admirer of Br Cloud, except when he gets onto history and prophecy.

 

After having read about the 5 point Calvinist in the Sword of the Lord, and what TULIP meant,

 

I don't follow Calvin, or any 5 points or TULIP, I just read the bible.  

 

You asked, "Why did I use the label 'Arminian'?"

 

AS I was labelled "Calvinist" I used the term that some Calvinistic Baptists use about all those who believe in free will.  I know a pastor who calls himself Arminian, and won't go to our church as he said we are Strict Baptists, but when I spoke to a member of his church, he said "Have you ever asked him to explain his position?"  I said "No."  and he replied, "I have and when he explains his beliefs, he is nearer to Calvin than Arminius.



#99 heartstrings

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 12:47 PM

Have you ever read Luther's Bondage of the Will?  He said Adam was given free will and exercised it for his children, us in other word  He used his freewill to sin and bore his son "in his own image" his sinful image.  I used Luther as one who believed in predestination and if you actually read my post, you will see that I said they were Calvinists "!in your words."  That is, they believed in predestination.  To say that predestination  did not mean predestination to life, but some other predestination is foolish  Called, chosen, predestinated.  If that were the only reference in scripture I would be inclined to agree with you, but there are many other places tat confirm this, remember, Jesus said "You didn't choose me, I chose you." and 

 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 
 
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 
65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
 

As you can see, the teaching of Jesus is no more popular today than it was them.

 

DasveW, you completely miss the point by trying to vilify me.  (I am glad that n one will have that attitude when we get to glory)   My point was, they all believed in  predestination.  Incidentally, they all (AS far as I know) taught that the Pope is the Man of Sin, the Antichrist.

 

 

A catholic is hardly likely to teach that. 

 

I used the word "Calvinist" as you use it on anyone who believes in predestination.  

 

 

I am an admirer of Br Cloud, except when he gets onto history and prophecy.

 

 

I don't follow Calvin, or any 5 points or TULIP, I just read the bible.  

 

You asked, "Why did I use the label 'Arminian'?"

 

AS I was labelled "Calvinist" I used the term that some Calvinistic Baptists use about all those who believe in free will.  I know a pastor who calls himself Arminian, and won't go to our church as he said we are Strict Baptists, but when I spoke to a member of his church, he said "Have you ever asked him to explain his position?"  I said "No."  and he replied, "I have and when he explains his beliefs, he is nearer to Calvin than Arminius.

 First of all, we believe "predestination'' because it is a Bible doctrine. You want people to believe that predestination means the same as predeterminism. That's false doctrine, using a Bible word.



#100 mkrishna

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 02:16 PM

Have you ever read Luther's Bondage of the Will?  He said Adam was given free will and exercised it for his children, us in other word  He used his freewill to sin and bore his son "in his own image" his sinful image.  I used Luther as one who believed in predestination and if you actually read my post, you will see that I said they were Calvinists "!in your words."  That is, they believed in predestination.  To say that predestination  did not mean predestination to life, but some other predestination is foolish  Called, chosen, predestinated.  If that were the only reference in scripture I would be inclined to agree with you, but there are many other places tat confirm this, remember, Jesus said "You didn't choose me, I chose you." and 

 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 
 
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 
65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
 

As you can see, the teaching of Jesus is no more popular today than it was them.

 

DasveW, you completely miss the point by trying to vilify me.  (I am glad that n one will have that attitude when we get to glory)   My point was, they all believed in  predestination.  Incidentally, they all (AS far as I know) taught that the Pope is the Man of Sin, the Antichrist.

 

 

A catholic is hardly likely to teach that. 

 

I used the word "Calvinist" as you use it on anyone who believes in predestination.  

 

 

I am an admirer of Br Cloud, except when he gets onto history and prophecy.

 

 

I don't follow Calvin, or any 5 points or TULIP, I just read the bible.  

 

You asked, "Why did I use the label 'Arminian'?"

 

AS I was labelled "Calvinist" I used the term that some Calvinistic Baptists use about all those who believe in free will.  I know a pastor who calls himself Arminian, and won't go to our church as he said we are Strict Baptists, but when I spoke to a member of his church, he said "Have you ever asked him to explain his position?"  I said "No."  and he replied, "I have and when he explains his beliefs, he is nearer to Calvin than Arminius.

Brother,

 

Where do you think Cloud is off on history? I have an interest in church history, and often wonder what the best source to go is on that topic.






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