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#1 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 07:10 AM

Here is something many of you who have been a Christian for some time have heard.

 

Philemon is the leader of the church in his house in the city of Colossi, and that Onesimus stole something from Philemon.

 

When we saw this in Dave Reese's article on the "t's and y's" most of us simply looked right over it but the fact is we cannot with any proof from the text say that either of these statements, opinions or assumptions were true. 

 

These are additions to the text but where did they come from?

 

I learned that other Bible scholars say the same things.  But did they get that from truly observing the text or did they put that into the text?

 

Actually I was looking to see where it originated and have yet to find it.   I do know it was taught me by my Bible teachers at Bible college and many of you were taught it too.  It seems to have gone back for many years, hundreds if not over a thousand years.

 

So it would seem Reese simply added a traditional teaching about Philemon and Onesimus into the text but without proof from the text. 

 

Is traditional word of mouth teaching improper?

 

Would many of you feel it is corrupting the word of God?



#2 Steve Schwenke

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 09:54 AM

No, it is not corrupting the word of God.  Background Historical information can be helpful to setting the context of the book.  Of course, I am careful to say that "many people believe that Philemon lived in Colosse, and may have been the pastor of the church there."  That way they know that this is not absolutely true, although it is reasonable to believe it is true.  Personally, I have never heard that Onesimus stole anything, but only that he had run away from his master.  Certainly he COULD have stolen something which could have been the reason for his running away, but this is mere speculation.  I might suggest that possibility, but also add that is only speculation, and the only thing we know for sure is that he ran away, Paul led him to Christ, and Paul exhorted him to return to his master.

 

The same thing is done routinely throughout the Bible.  For instance, if anyone wants to know more about the OT idol Baal, looking things up in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) to get more information could be helpful, and then incorporated into the teaching.  The only thing that the student must be careful of is where these people actually change the Scriptures to support their ideas or use their ideas to suggest a different meaning than the one that is in the text.



#3 No Nicolaitans

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 10:09 AM

Yeah...I've never heard anyone say that about Philemon or that Onesimus stole anything either.

 

It would make sense to me to consider him the leader of the church in his house since Paul said "the church in THY house."

 

If people are claiming that Onesimus stole something, I guess they assume that from this verse?

 

Philemon 1:18
If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;

 

However, Paul said, "IF..." That doesn't mean that Onesimus did owe Philemon...



#4 Ukulelemike

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 11:27 AM

I've been a Christian for quite a while, (since 1972-that's a while isn't it?), but I have never heard either of these things. I knew Onesimus was a runaway slave and he ran from Philemon. Philemon was a believer and Onesimus became a believer under Paul. That's all I have heard.



#5 Covenanter

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 05:41 AM

AVBB's OP illustrates a common problem - we teach according to our understanding of Scripture, sometimes, as in this case, a reasonable understanding. Philemon had a church meeting in his house, & Onesimus is very likely to have stolen provisions for his escape, as Paul alludes in his letter. 

 

No Scripture truths are violated in considering Philemon's leadership role, nor in how to deal with a runaway slave who had stolen from his master, & was returning, penitent yet fearful.

 

Far more serious misuse of Scripture is apparent in many threads, which is why long arguments ensue, where doctrine is read into Scripture.

 

I'll give one example from the RSS article "Preparing for perilous times, & finding peace...." The assumption is that we are approaching the last days before Jesus' second coming. But was Paul referring to the Apostolic days as the last days? He warns Timothy & counsels him:  But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned..... Hebrews begins with the assumption that the present Gospel days are these last days:

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son....

 

Or are both viewpoints correct? We have to live by Scripture in our own times, as did Timothy. The principles apply to every generation. As Pseudo-Ephraem pointed out in another thread.



#6 "I am chief"

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 08:13 AM

I've been a Christian for quite a while, (since 1972-that's a while isn't it?), but I have never heard either of these things. I knew Onesimus was a runaway slave and he ran from Philemon. Philemon was a believer and Onesimus became a believer under Paul. That's all I have heard.

Same here (not exactly, I was a heathen then) ...just that Onesimus had wronged Philemon as a run away servant. Onesimus put himself in servitude for some cause (unknown to me) and had not fulfilled his service.



#7 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 09:25 AM

for those of you who have not heard of these things here are some good sources from which you may not have known.

 

Smith's Bible dictionary - Philemon was the bishop of the church
Intl Bible encyclopedia - Apphila was Philemon's wife and Archippus was his son
Easton's - Philemon probably held some position in the church


Intl Bible Encyclopedia - Onesimus was still a heathen when he defrauded his master
Easton's - Onesimus, a slave who after robbing his master Philemon, fled to Rome.

Halls Comm. - Our fellow laborer in the Gospel, Bishop or Pastor of the Church at Colosse.
J F B Comm - Greek, "But it (thou art not inclined to 'receive him' because) he hath wronged thee"; a milder term than "robbed thee." Onesimus seems to have confessed some such act to Paul
Matthew Henry Comm - Philemon, one of note and probably a minister in the church of Colosse, a city of Phrygia, had a servant named Onesimus, who, having purloined his goods,
Philip Dodridge comm - one of the pastors of the Colossian church
Robertson's NT word Pics - He had probably robbed Philemon before he ran away

 

those are a few.

 

Also I left something out to see if any of you had actually read Reese's article.  One that some of us have been guilty of when not saying "may have" or  "could have Been".  Reese says that Jesus spoke Greek.  While we do know the NT was written in Greek and the OT was in Hebrew and possibly Chaldean we are never told he spoke in Greek.  I do believe that when Jesus Quoted Scripture, and this is my conviction, that he spoke in Hebrew.  But that is an assumption as we do not know which language Jesus actually spoke in.

 

I agree that the Scripture in Duet where the KJV Translators added a word to the text to make it more readable in English but when they got to their copies of the MSS (not originals) they found Jesus quote including all the words found in Duet in the text proving the preservation of God's word and its in-errancy.

 

But it is an assumption to say Jesus Spoke Greek to his disciples or the common people when he spoke.  We just don't have proof of that.  Greek was the common trade language as English is today but that doesn't prove Jesus Spoke Greek.


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 06 July 2014 - 05:46 PM.


#8 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 09:27 AM

oops


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 06 July 2014 - 05:45 PM.


#9 Invicta

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 11:13 AM

for those of you who have not heard of these things here are some good sources from which you may not have known.

 

Smith's Bible dictionary - Philemon was the bishop of the church
Intl Bible encyclopedia - Apphila was Philemon's wife and Archippus was his son
Easton's - Philemon probably held some position in the church


Intl Bible Encyclopedia - Onesimus was still a heathen when he defrauded his master
Easton's - Onesimus, a slave who after robbing his master Philemon, fled to Rome.

Halls Comm. - Our fellow laborer in the Gospel, Bishop or Pastor of the Church at Colosse.
J F B Comm - Greek, "But it (thou art not inclined to 'receive him' because) he hath wronged thee"; a milder term than "robbed thee." Onesimus seems to have confessed some such act to Paul
Matthew Henry Comm - Philemon, one of note and probably a minister in the church of Colosse, a city of Phrygia, had a servant named Onesimus, who, having purloined his goods,
Philip Dodridge comm - one of the pastors of the Colossian church
Robertson's NT word Pics - He had probably robbed Philemon before he ran away

 

those are a few.

 

Also I left something out to see if any of you had actually read Reese's article.  One that some of us have been guilty of when not saying "may have" or  "could have Been".  Reese says that Jesus spoke Greek.  While we do know the NT was written in Greek and the OT was in Hebrew and possibly Chaldean we are never told he spoke in Greek.  I do believe that when Jesus Quoted Scripture, and this is my conviction, that he spoke in Hebrew.  But that is an assumption as we do not know which language Jesus actually spoke in.

 

I agree that the Scripture in Duet where the KJV Translators added a word tot he text to make it more readable in English but when they got to their copies of the MSS (not originals) they found Jesus quote including all the words found in Duet in the text proving the preservation of God's word and its in-errancy.

 

But it is an assumption to say Jesus Spoke Greek to his disciples or the common people when he spoke.  We just don't have proof of that.  Greek was the common trade language as English is today but that doesn't prove Jesus Spoke Greek.

 

I am not saying one or another, I don't know, but David Cloud says he believes that in the NT we have the actual words of Jesus, so he spoke Greek, except when Hebrew or Aramaic words are used.  The usual teaching these days seems to be that Jesus spoke Aramaic.

 

Bro Cloud also believes that when God spke to Adam he spoke in Hebrew, as we have the actual words of God an d there are places where there is a play on words which only work in Hebrew. 



#10 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:44 PM

I am not saying one or another, I don't know, but David Cloud says he believes that in the NT we have the actual words of Jesus, so he spoke Greek, except when Hebrew or Aramaic words are used.  The usual teaching these days seems to be that Jesus spoke Aramaic.

 

Bro Cloud also believes that when God spke to Adam he spoke in Hebrew, as we have the actual words of God an d there are places where there is a play on words which only work in Hebrew. 

I am not sure but brother cloud is not the authority the Scriptures are.  and the truth of the matter of which language Jesus spoke the Bible itself does not tell.  None of us were there and just because the NT was mainly in Greek does not prove that is what he spoke.  The books of the NT were written after Jesus Ascended and were written in the language of the day.  We have no originals as some claim we have only copies of Originals.

 

When someone infers that Jesus spoke in Greek it is at best an opinion, a conviction, and a speculation on the one making the inference.



#11 Ukulelemike

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:17 PM

Well, I suspect we are straining at a gnat in this incident, concerning lan guages-I have little doubt Jesus spoke the language He needed to depending upon who He spoke to-He was raised in Galilee, and they spoke araaic there, but being a carpenter, He probably had reason to speak in various languages in plying His trade. So really, does it matter? I understand the point certainly, that we can't assume Jesus spoke such and such, because the Bible doesn't say. Like we can't assume certain things about Philemon and Onesimus-over time people have filled in the blanks as they have pleased-I once read that the young man in the book of Mark who was with the disciples in the garden after the last supper, who was just wearing a linen sheet around his naked body, and ran away naked when the guards tried to catch him, was Mark, who penned the book of Mark. Was it? Maybe, maybe not-we'll never know this side of Heaven.

 

I think speculation is fine, so long as it always remains firmly in the book of 2Opinions.



#12 Salyan

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:41 AM

And, seriously, what does it matter what language Christ spoke?

#13 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:05 AM

What some are trying to label "straining at gnats" or "questioning scripture" actually must resort to such because they are quite aware that these assumptions are not clear in the Scriptures. Therefore, force them who make such claims, to actually question the private interpretations of men who have been passing off for scriptures their own ideas and doctrines as Biblical Truth.


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 07 July 2014 - 10:06 AM.


#14 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:07 AM

And, seriously, what does it matter what language Christ spoke?

You are correct, it does not matter one bit, as long as we have a clear preserved word in our language today that we can learn from we have no need to know what language he spoke.

 

the point is men are placing their ideas and private interpretations into their teachings as absolute truth when they should be labeling such as "it is my opinion" or "the scriptures are not clear but I believe" so that others are not misled to beleive something that the KJV Bible does not teach.


Edited by AVBibleBeliever, 07 July 2014 - 10:10 AM.


#15 Invicta

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 06:43 PM

I am not saying I agreed with Bro Cloud.  I said I din't know.  But this I do know.  My bible says that Pilate wrote over the cross in Hebrew but MVs say he wrote in Aramaic.  



#16 DaveW

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 07:02 PM

John 19

 19  And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

 20  This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

The Bible I read says Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.........

funny that - the local language, the common language, and the official Roman language.

#17 John81

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 06:00 PM

Depending upon the situation, who is around and my mood, I speak in the equivalent of one of those three myself. :eye: :eye: 



#18 Invicta

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 10:43 AM

John 19

 19  And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

 20  This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

The Bible I read says Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.........

funny that - the local language, the common language, and the official Roman language.

 

Yes my bible says that as well.



#19 John81

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 12:39 PM

We read from John in church today. All the other passages were from Proverbs.



#20 AVBibleBeliever

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 07:27 PM

We read from John in church today. All the other passages were from Proverbs.

So was there any preaching or was it just reading?






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