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Speaking In Tongues


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#81 Ukulelemike

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:44 PM

I don't believe the tongues Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 14 was a miracle of hearing.  I believe the speaker was speaking in a tongue unbeknownst to the the hearer.  Else, why would there be a need for an interpreter

Agreed, but the tongues in Acts 2 may well have been, due to the comment, "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" Now, I may be incorrect in this assesment, but it may be correct. He didn't say, How hear we every man speaking in our own tongue? Maybe just a figure of speech meaning the same thing, but maybe not. We do know they spoke with other tongues while still in the upper room, but did they continue outside, or were they speaking their native tongues and others heard them in their tongues?  

 

But here is another thought on 1Cor 14: How could Paul tell them NOT to speak in tongues if there is no interpreter present? If, like in the pentecostal manner, the Lord just flung the tongues out of their mouths at random times, would it not be correct to assume the Lord would also cause someone to interpret? If not, how would one know whether there WAS an interpreter or not, if both came by the Spirit, unexpectedly?  Seems more like, in 1Cor 14, people were speaking languages they knew, but were unknown to the hearers, so they were forbidden to speak such unless there was someone they knew could interpret it. Like a foreign missionary speaking in his native tongue should have an interpreter.



#82 GraceSaved

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:42 PM

It still seems the "that which is perfect is come" refers to seeing God face to face because going down further to verse 12 "but then face to face" and not referring to the completion of the Bible. I could be wrong though because the Word is God as indicated in John 1. As far as tongues ceasing, couldn't that mean all the languages as we know them today? Won't there be a time where everyone will speak the same language as before the tower of Babel? I could be wrong there too since 1 Cor 13:1 says "tongues of men and angels." Apparently, angels have many languages as well. Still humbly learning. :-)

Also, the person praying in the unknown tongue didn't understand what he was saying because his understanding was unfruitful and therefore was told that he should pray that he may interpret. That's the problem I have with those that pray in a "spiritual language" as a means of private prayer. I never heard anyone testify that they interpreted their own tongues during private prayer and I don't recall in AOG that they teach to also pray for the gift of interpretation after receiving the gift of tongues. They don't understand that it was meant for a sign to unbelievers (where is the unbeliever in private prayer?) and also for edifying the church (where is the church in private prayer?) But rather, believe that it is for self-empowerment and intercession on behalf of the Holy Spirit but forget the Holy Spirit intercedes with groanings that can't be uttered.There is utterance when speaking in tongues. They also believe that it is evidence of having the Holy Spirit even though they say we receive the Holy Spirit at salvation. So in essence, they are teaching two baptisms of the Holy Spirit which I don't see in scripture. I also don't see in scripture where the transition took place from human languages to a spiritual language.

#83 No Nicolaitans

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:08 PM

Agreed, but the tongues in Acts 2 may well have been, due to the comment, "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" Now, I may be incorrect in this assesment, but it may be correct. He didn't say, How hear we every man speaking in our own tongue? Maybe just a figure of speech meaning the same thing, but maybe not. We do know they spoke with other tongues while still in the upper room, but did they continue outside, or were they speaking their native tongues and others heard them in their tongues?  

 

I truly believe they were just acknowledging that they were hearing their language actually being spoken because of three verses...a gift of speaking rather than hearing. Two verses precede the verse you mentioned, and the other follows...

 

Acts 2:4-11
  4   And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
  5   And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
  6   Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
  7   And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
  8   And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
  9   Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
  10    Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
  11   Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


Edited by No Nicolaitans, 29 July 2014 - 03:09 PM.


#84 Ukulelemike

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:49 PM

I truly believe they were just acknowledging that they were hearing their language actually being spoken because of three verses...a gift of speaking rather than hearing. Two verses precede the verse you mentioned, and the other follows...

 

Acts 2:4-11
  4   And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
  5   And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
  6   Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
  7   And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
  8   And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
  9   Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
  10    Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
  11   Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

And of course my point isn't really to try and prove that point-but as has been said earlier, and I have heard from other godly folks, the Lord seems to work by causing some to HEAR their language, though it is not what is being spoke, today. I had heard one old pastor fiend of mine relate a story like that, of witnessing to two mexican ladies, one of whom spoke English, and the other didn't, so after he gave the gospel to the one, he hasked her to translate, but the other woman said she had understood it all, and wanted to be saved. until yesterday, reading a similar story here, I had not heard it, save for the one I just related, so perhaps the Lord ODES work in such a way. Is it tongues? Maybe not exactly, but similar. And if the result is true salvation, I would say its from God-its not showy and doesn't glorify the speaker, only the Lord.



#85 Invicta

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:21 PM

 Seems more like, in 1Cor 14, people were speaking languages they knew, but were unknown to the hearers, so they were forbidden to speak such unless there was someone they knew could interpret it. Like a foreign missionary speaking in his native tongue should have an interpreter.

 

It seems this is a possible explanation.  I have heard it said that Corinth was a seaport with sailors from all over the world, so that would seem a likely explanation.

 

When in France, I have been told in a meeting that I can pry in English if need be, but I would not be happy with that, as how could anyone say "Amen" if they didn't understand English?   My wife is more or less fluent in French, but is not good at interpreting as she says she cannot think in two languages at the same time.



#86 prophet1

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:10 PM

Question: If tongues was so all-fire important, how come the Apostle Paul did not encourage the use of them in his other epistles? Why no mention of them in the Pastoral epistles of Timothy and Titus?

If toungues was so all fired important, why didnt he call them a command of God? O, wait, he did.

Too bad the charismatics have convinced to ignore the Word of God, in a reactionary defense posture.

Let The Bible speak for himself.

#87 prophet1

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:47 PM

I don't believe the tongues Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 14 was a miracle of hearing. I believe the speaker was speaking in a tongue unbeknownst to the the hearer. Else, why would there be a need for an interpreter?

So it is a sign to unbelievers, that they hear in their own language,
but it isn't a miracle of hearing?

Why would someone speaking in a language that you don't understand, and giving the interpretation of it, be a sign?

When my wife speaks Spanish at me, it is a sign that I messed up.

B)

#88 Ukulelemike

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:31 AM

I want to repeat this, because no one has really said anything about it:

 

 

Tongues, generally-speaking, were given for one primary purpose: as a sign to unbelieving Jews, as a fulfillment of prophecy. 1Cor 14:21 says "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord." This prophecy is found in !saiah 28:11 & 12: "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear." Tongues was given for the sake of the Jews, as a sign that their promised rest in the Messiah had come, yet, in Isaiah, they were warned that they wouldn't hear it, and so it came to pass. These are those referred to in 1Cor 14:22, :"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."



#89 beameup

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 01:00 PM

I want to repeat this, because no one has really said anything about it:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing

shall come from the presence of the Lord;  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth

of all his holy prophets since the world began. 

Peter preaching the promised Millennial Kingdom to Israel, if they would repent. Acts 3:19-21



#90 HappyChristian

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 01:07 PM

good to see you have such a pure heart and focus on things that are lovely and honest,  And that you make such just accusations and that you always focus on good reports and all your words are virtuous . I am sure we all want to follow your example

 

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

This was totally unnecessary, AVBB.  DaveW had a very valid point...there have been some pretty egregious teachings on here - there always is, as people are human and tend to error rather than truth quite often - of late.   

 

Don't be so quick to mock a person who is frustrated with unbliblical teachings.



#91 Ukulelemike

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 01:40 PM

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing

shall come from the presence of the Lord;  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth

of all his holy prophets since the world began. 

Peter preaching the promised Millennial Kingdom to Israel, if they would repent. Acts 3:19-21

This has nothing to do with the quote about tongues being a fulfillment of prophecy for the Jews to turn them to Christ. There will still ne a literal milennial kingdom and it will still be ruled by Jesus Christ in Jerusalem, and there will still be a remnant saved.

 

But lets stay on track here, shall we?



#92 beameup

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:04 PM

This has nothing to do with the quote about tongues being a fulfillment of prophecy for the Jews to turn them to Christ. There will still ne a literal milennial kingdom and it will still be ruled by Jesus Christ in Jerusalem, and there will still be a remnant saved.

 

But lets stay on track here, shall we?

The "connection" is obvious.  Tongues were for a sign to Israel.  Israel needed to repent as a nation for Jesus to return to set up his Kingdom.

Let's try to "connect the dots".

 

When "tongues" were finally given to Gentiles, it was to further "provoke" Israel to repentance. Obviously that didn't work either.  Tongues have "served their purpose". 

 

The Kingdom has been postponed.



#93 Invicta

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:30 PM

The "connection" is obvious.  Tongues were for a sign to Israel.  Israel needed to repent as a nation for Jesus to return to set up his Kingdom.

Let's try to "connect the dots".

 

When "tongues" were finally given to Gentiles, it was to further "provoke" Israel to repentance. Obviously that didn't work either.  Tongues have "served their purpose". 

 

The Kingdom has been postponed.

 

 

John 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.



#94 beameup

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 07:35 PM

The "Kingdom" coming to earth, and establishing the throne in Jerusalem, has been "postponed".

 

"thy Kingdome come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven" - Mt 6:10


Edited by beameup, 31 July 2014 - 07:38 PM.


#95 prophet1

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:51 PM

The "connection" is obvious. Tongues were for a sign to Israel. Israel needed to repent as a nation for Jesus to return to set up his Kingdom.
Let's try to "connect the dots".

When "tongues" were finally given to Gentiles, it was to further "provoke" Israel to repentance. Obviously that didn't work either. Tongues have "served their purpose".

The Kingdom has been postponed.

Show me where God rescinded His provocation of the Olive Tree to Jealousy, by grafting in wild branches.




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